User talk:Patapsco913/Archive 5

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December events with WIR

December 2019, Volume 5, Issue 12, Numbers 107, 108, 144, 145, 146, 147 Check out what's happening in December at Women in Red... Online events: New: Parliamentarians / Classical musicians / 2019 deaths / Geofocus: Arab world Continuing: Suffrage / #1day1woman / Stub Contest Editor feedback: Check out the conversation regarding: Disappearing articles Help us plan our future events at the Ideas Cafe Join the conversations on our talkpage Social media: Facebook / Instagram / Pinterest / Twitter Stay in touch: Join WikiProject Women in Red / Opt-out of notifications

--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:44, 25 November 2019 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Bedford North Lawrence High School

Hello. Your recent edit to Bedford North Lawrence High School appears to have added the name of a non-notable entity to a list that normally includes only notable entries. In general, a person, organization or product added to a list should have a pre-existing article before being added to most lists. If you wish to create such an article, please first confirm that the subject qualifies for a separate, stand-alone article according to Wikipedia's notability guideline. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 13:16, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of File:Inmate Listing of the McLennan Country Jail as of May 19, 2015.pdf

The page File:Inmate Listing of the McLennan Country Jail as of May 19, 2015.pdf has been speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This was done under section F10 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it was a file that is not an image, sound file or video clip (e.g. a Microsoft Word document or PDF file) that has no encyclopedic use.

Please do not recreate the material without addressing these concerns, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If you think this page should not have been deleted for this reason, you may contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you may open a discussion at Wikipedia:Deletion Review Wikiacc (¶) 06:51, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for December 23

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Giovanni Battista Deti, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Alessandro Orsini (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 08:28, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

BLP Discretionary Sanctions Advisement

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

--Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 20:43, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Note while the template does indicate there isn't a problem with your edits in the area, I do have strong concerns over your editing and your continued tagging of articles despite the concerns of multiple editors. Please desist in these edits. --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 20:47, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I have not been editing much on living people since the start of the review; and I will stay away from the deceased people that are being reviewed.Patapsco913 (talk) 21:20, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I strongly suggest you refrain from tagging living people by faith and ethnicity as well. At least until you are more familiar with the BLP policy. This particular group has a good reason to be upset when it looks like a list is being formed of members of their faith. Some sensitivity is required in this topic area. As such I strongly suggest you abide by both the letter and the spirit of the BLP policy or I'll be heading to Arbitration Enforcement to request an uninvolved party look into this. --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 21:41, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Discontinue violations of BLP

OTRS note: I am currently in the process of going back through your entire edit history after we received a major complaint about your edits here via OTRS (that complaint was found valid by a four-way consensus of admins and OTRS members). I will be explaining everything I'm doing shortly, but our first priority is ensuring Wikipedia's very important policy on BLPs is not being violated. I have conferred with my associates about this move, so do not go back and re-add your edits without forming consensus. Additionally, do not continue using poor sourcing to add religious identifications to BLPs while I go through this process (nor continue to add violations of WP:BLPCAT). Thank you for your anticipated cooperation. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 12:01, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

• I am not adding necessarily religious identifications as Jewish is also an ethnic identification. see Who is a Jew? "...Jewish identity is also commonly defined through ethnicity. Opinion polls have suggested that the majority of Jews see being Jewish as predominantly a matter of ancestry and culture, rather than religion" Patapsco913 (talk) 17:19, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I am waiting on an explanation but I guess you feel like reverting without commenting. So very polite. Patapsco913 (talk) 07:22, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Given that you have over 95,000 edits, going through your "entire edit history" (as coffee put it) will take some time. It is unreasonable to expect this to have been done in under 24 hours. Additionally, edits like this after being warned is not a very good look. WP:BLPCAT violations are violation of the biographies of living persons policy. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 08:32, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 09:27, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Well Coffee said he would reply to me with more details but did not so I was waiting on his response. The first edit I see is to George Blumberg who died in 1938 and clearly has a solid reference that he is Jewish. And Jewish can mean more than religion (in fact Wikipedia defines it as such). The US government now looks at being Jewish as an ethnicity which most Jews do as well. As far as using "Jewish family"...that is what I was told to do long ago by several editors and I was told to read the page Who is a Jew? as a reference. Woody Allen is still Jewish even though an atheist; and Albert Einstein is still Jewish even though not religious (his Wikipedia page even states "The word God is for me nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change anything about this. [...] For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstition. [...] I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them [the Jewish people]." ...but Einstein is still in Jewish category? It seems a lot of people have different understandings of what being Jewish means: it can be a religion, and ethnicity, or a cultural identity. A person does not need to state "I am a Jew" for one to be Jewish. Patapsco913 (talk) 12:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

As my administrative colleagues here just told you: I'm still in the process of reviewing your edits. When that is complete, then and only then, will I be giving you an explanation for the changes that goes beyond what I've said already in the edit summaries. I simply do not have the time to drop by here after every edit I make when you've done this so broadly across so many articles (and majoritively in violation of policy) and when you have so many edits in your history (I've only combed through a few hundred so far, out of tens of thousands). I am putting together a giant explanation along with every relevant diff, but this will take days or weeks not hours (my use of the word shortly did not imply anything else). So, please be patient and perhaps try to find something else to do other than re-adding poorly sourced content (with original research) to biographical articles. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 13:41, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I understand the synthesis argument/OR but I am not seeing the need for self-attestation and multiple references requirement "widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject". If I look at Wikipedia:ETHNICRACECAT it does not have that requirement and that was what I was following. The example they provide even states "For example, we do have Category:Jewish musicians, but we should not have Category:Semitic musicians." I have been told that if we have a reliable source that someone is Jewish, then that is sufficient to include them in the category.Patapsco913 (talk) 09:00, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I notice you keep saying ethnicity allows you to do these additions, yet I already have compiled evidence that shows you knew how to refer to ethnic origins separately from religion, yet you continuously blended that line in your edits to Jewish biographies. Jewish ethnicity and religion is on its own a very blended category, so quite obviously you need to also follow the procedures at WP:CAT/R, WP:BLPCAT, WP:BLP, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:SYNTH, MOS:CONTEXTBIO, etc., when trying to add such controversial information (so controversial we have had multiple complaints at OTRS just this month regarding their additions). You simply do not get to choose on your own (or even among a small group of editors) whether someone is supposedly ethnically or religiously Jewish whenever it better suits your wish to include it in an article (an article subject being Jewish doesn't give you loopholes around our policies). Reliable sources determine this for us, as we do not conduct original research. Those sources need to be unquestionably reliable and, by consensus, say the subject is described in such ways. As it is also a religion you further need to provide proof that 1) the person publicly self-identifies as such, or 2) they have been described as such by multiple reliable sources and it has found to be part of their notability, or 3) that sources say the article subject is specifically ethnically Jewish. (If they are only ethnically Jewish, you need to specify that they are of Jewish descent not that they are just "Jewish" nor should you keep claiming entire families are Jewish without evidence and without specifying whether that is religious or ethnic.) It isn't just an "argument", it's our unquestionable policy which I'm simply enforcing. Furthermore, you really need to start abiding by all of our polices when you edit BLPs, if you don't know how you need to stop editing them. Full stop (you've been here long enough to know better). I am not at all happy with what I've uncovered so far, nor am I pleased with your lackadaisical attitude here regarding very serious policy violations. You "being told" something does not substitute our policies, and you should stop pretending at this point that it in any way does. As I've said before, you will be getting a full explanation when I'm actually done. So do try and stop trying to cherry pick your way out of this. Note: I will not be replying here again until this is complete; this isn't a discussion this is enforcement. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 10:37, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Ok. I get what you are saying. In order to document a subject as ethnically Jewish, I have to have at least 3 unquestionably reliable sources describing the subject as ethnically Jewish. In order to document a subject as religiously Jewish, I have to have at least 3 unquestionably reliable sources showing that they self-identify as a practitioner of Judaism and that the fact they practice Judaism is part of their notability. This would seem to preclude adding any Jewish designation on most biographies.Patapsco913 (talk) 11:55, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I think you're on the right track here. But, I don't want to try to piecemeal explain it to you as I may miss something important you need to be doing. So, do understand I appreciate at least that you seem to be listening, and I appreciate your willingness to learn. I will reply in greater detail when I am through with the review. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 09:31, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

OK - when you find any that has sufficient sourcing to list them as Jewish, please post their name here so I can take a look. I know I have some where a pretty good source like the NY Times will say they are Jewish - but not identify whether it is ethnic or religious - and I doubt I have many with three sources identifying as such. For those who are living, i would expect that very few have being Jewish as part of their notability. This may be a good one to start up a discussion group on because there are many many people not using this standard even in the Jewish-focused wiki-projects.Patapsco913 (talk) 17:38, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

• Hello Patapsco913, I just was made aware of this edit you made today introducing text stating that Maurice Kremer is Jewish in violation of WP:CAT/R. Please cease this immediately. Further edits of this sort without previous consensus and in blatant disregard for the above will result in a block. This is your final warning. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 19:32, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Maurice Kremer (1824–1907) - I just changed what was there from "Jewish family" to "Jewish" since Coffee has rightly objected to my use of "Jewish family" which I thought was softer terminology but I admit was wrong. Anyhow, the source says he founding member of Congregation B'nai B'rith (now the Wilshire Boulevard Temple) so how could he not be Jewish?

• "Maurice Kremer: Very Early Pioneer Jewish Merchant and Civil Servant of Los Angeles". Jewish Museum of the American West. Retrieved April 9, 2018.

Other sources also say he was Jewish:

• Artsey, Avishay. "L.A.'s First Jew". Jewish Telegraphic Agency. Some of the dry goods merchants at Bell's Row included Jewish civic and cultural leaders of the city: Solomon Lazard, Maurice Kremer, Eugene Meyer and Isaias M. Hellman.
• Wilson, Karen. Jews in the Los Angeles Mosaic. like other jewish immigrants, Maurice Kremer, Harris Newmark, Solomon Lazard, Eugene Meyer married the four Newmark daughters only after becoming established in business.
• A Cultural History of Jews in California. Another Jew, Maurice Kremer was elected County Treasurer in 1859 Patapsco913 (talk) 20:18, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I look over the contributions by the various Jewish wikiprojects Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism, Wikipedia:WikiProject Jewish history, Wikipedia:WikiProject Jewish Women, Wikipedia:WikiProject Jewish culture and I do not see this standard being followed where you need to have three unequivocal sources specifically stating if the person is an ethnic or religious Jew or it cannot be included. I would imagine that there are 1000s of Jewish biographies that categorize people as Jewish that do not have sufficient support.Patapsco913 (talk) 20:18, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

• I specifically have not said that you need any particular number of sources, that was your own idea on how to solve the consensus issue. The fact that other people may have introduced similar errors in other articles is not an excuse for your continued additions in violation of policy you have been made aware of. And you knew full well before making the edit that got you the final warning that you needed more than one biased source to make this claim on a biography, so don't pretend you were following policy with this most recent change. Continually not getting the point and continually failing to take this issue seriously is simply going to result in a block. If you knew of additional sources to back up the claim in the article you should have added them before putting a controversial claim into an article not waited to present them here. You knowing of something does not constitute coverage in reliable sources and you already know that by now. I'm not going to keep wasting my time explaining things to you that you have already been told. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 20:42, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

• Sorry, I took "multiple" sources to mean more than two. At the time, I figured the one source I had for Maurice Kremer was sufficient and unbiased. I relied on the Jewish Women's Archive, the The Jewish Encyclopedia, and the Jewish Virtual Library for many other edits.Patapsco913 (talk) 20:55, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

• So your excuse for once again violating policy by using a singular dubious source to back up a controversial claim in a biography, is that you thought you definitely needed at least 3 unquestionably reliable sources to follow policy? "At the time" was well after this discussion had concluded on my last reply and well after you were clearly aware of the need for a consensus of verified sources. So, you're either now being dishonest or there are competency issues here... either of which are grounds to sanction you from editing BLPs ever again (see WP:BLPDS). I suggest you stop trying to defend defenseless actions. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 01:02, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I am not going to edit or re-edit anything regarding religion or ethnicity on BLPs (or on deceased people like Kremer). I am not trying to be difficult, I was just re-wording the statement because I used "Jewish family" rather than just "Jewish." You were going to get to the biography eventually. You will see that most of my edits will say "Jewish family".Patapsco913 (talk) 03:13, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

This is only using one source to back up this claim, as you were told before this isn't acceptable (multiple sources need to exist, or at the least [per the AN discussion] one general reference needs to be shown [such as an encyclopedia of Jewish people]). Do you have another source to add to the article that describes them as Jewish, or is there already one present that isn't being used inline? — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 02:06, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

I added some sources to Sherman Block. Should not this be raised in the AN discussion since the biographies that are being added back to the lists are using only one source and letting "Jewish family" stay in the biography as sufficient wording? Otherwise everyone is going to be working against each other with you removing information and others adding information; and we will be right back where we started from. I think if we use the standard that being Jewish must be part of someone's notability and multiple reliable sources of self-identification, it will basically eliminate most Jewish biographies (and actually go against what the Jewish wikiprojects are striving) and if you apply it across the board, we would rarely mention the ethnicity of anyone. There are probably thousands of biographies mentioning the ethnic backgrounds of living people without self-identification. Patapsco913 (talk) 15:50, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much for those sources! That is much better! Now if you can source every article you want to add such claims to like that, I would be truly appreciative. As to your other point, I will be continuing to focus on a review of your additions simply because how many weren't done correctly (I think you have seen in the edit summaries the many policy issues you presented). The unsourced lists that I did the removals from were mostly separate from your issues of synthesis, etc., so if people are working on those right now and aren't sourcing the articles or lists properly, I intend to work on that as well and assist in proper sourcing. (That will just be quite a bit from now given the delay the AN thread caused.) To your last point, Jewish is an ethnoreligious identification. That means it has to follow the standards of religious claims in biographies (self-identification, and a consensus of sourcing showing it part of their notability). With the only exception being if a source describes the person directly and explicitly as being of Jewish ethnicity, but not a follower or believer etc in the religious side of the ethnoreligion. That is what a literal interpretation of current policy is, and if you disagree with it I recommend (as I did at the now closed AN) you take it up in an RFC at the relevant talk page (such as the talk page for WP:BLPCAT). — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 00:11, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Well the problem will continue to exist because other editors like User:Cullen328, User:Sir Joseph, User:Levivich, User:Sir Joseph, User:Debresser, User:Jayjg seem to apply a different standard. I assume that unless the citation specifically says religion (which is technically Judaism) then you assume it means ethnicity which just requires a reliable source that they are Jewish. So you are going to remove sources and others are going to add them back. This does not sound like a solution does it? There will not be any Jewish biographies of living people left if you require a consensus of sourcing showing 1) self-identification, 2) it is part of their notability, and 3) the sources used explicitly identify whether it is referring to religion or ethnicity. Most Jewish people are not notable because of their Jewishness; they are notable people who happen to be Jewish. This might be better to discuss on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Identifying who is Jewish so I will add it there. Patapsco913 (talk) 01:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

User:Coffee seems to continue to misunderstand the difference between Judaism as a religion and Judaism as an ethnicity. His unilateral interpretation of what that means regarding Wikipedia policies and guidelines is becoming problematic. Attemps to explain this to him are failing. Various editors are suggesting that if he will continue in this way, he will have to be sanctioned. Please keep track of Coffee's edits for future reference. Debresser (talk) 11:36, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

• Here's another issue: You should not be adding (in any manner) minor children's names to articles unless they are directly notable. I removed the names from Karatz's BLP, and I suggest you not add such information to articles in the future (and especially not when the source used is a newsletter). If you know of other articles you have added such data to, please go back and remove it so as to comply with our standards. The fact you did this after being warned several times about BLP violations, is an incrediblty worrying sign. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 01:10, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Just to be clear to all, regarding Jews, one need not (and likely must not) differentiate between ethnicity or religion, if that were even possible. Jews are an ethnoreligious group, and there are not clear and easily defined boundaries between the ethnicity and religion. All one needs is to follow Wikipedia policy: that is, find a reliable source indicating that the individual is Jewish. Two or more sources would, of course, be better, particularly for living people. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:06, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Update Jay Sures’ marital status

Hello! I work for Executive Writing, and as part of my consultancy work, I work with United Talent Agency. I noticed that you recently updated Jay Sures’ page to include his marriage to Molly Isaksen. However, the two are no longer married. While there was no press coverage of their divorce, you can view the primary source court documents here. I am hoping you would be willing to remove the reference to their marriage in both the info box, as well as the sentence in the “Personal Life” section of his page.

I believe I've disclosed my conflict of interest appropriately. Thank you in advance for your help. EWChristine (talk) 19:12, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

How about we switch to "was married" and put your message on the talk page so future editors will see it.Patapsco913 (talk) 19:17, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

February with Women in Red

February 2020, Volume 6, Issue 2, Numbers 150, 151, 152, 154, 155 Happy Valentine's Day from all of us at Women in Red. Online events: New: Explorers / Black Women / Horror / Continuing initiatives: #1day1woman / Sports! Editor feedback: Schedule planning at the Virtual Ideas Cafe Join the conversations on our talkpage Social media: Facebook / Instagram / Pinterest / Twitter Stay in touch: Join WikiProject Women in Red / Opt-out of notifications

--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:31, 28 January 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Disambiguation link notification for February 2

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited USS YP-284, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Necker Island (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 10:17, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Subic Bay

Hi Patapsco913. Thanks for your additions of shipwrecks in Subic Bay. It seems you are doing some research on this. Can you add your sources as references to the article? Thanks again. -- P 1 9 9  ✉ 15:15, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

March 2020 at Women in Red

March 2020, Volume 6, Issue 3, Numbers 150, 151, 156, 157, 158, 159 Happy Women's History Month from all of us at Women in Red. Online events: New: Art+Activists & Folklore / Aviation / Great Britain & Ireland Photo and image initiative: #VisibleWikiWomen photo initiative Continuing initiatives: #1day1woman / Sports! Editor feedback: Schedule planning at the Virtual Ideas Cafe Join the conversations on our talkpage Social media: Facebook / Instagram / Pinterest / Twitter Stay in touch: Join WikiProject Women in Red / Opt-out of notifications

--Rosiestep (talk) 19:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Japanese ships

Good work you're doing on these. I've amended Hayataka Maru as unusually wrecksite.eu is showing incorrect info. Miramar shows that she had a succession of civil owners and she was never part of the IJN Lyndaship (talk) 17:59, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

thanks! it is like detective work with some of them Patapsco913 (talk) 23:23, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

BLP concerns on Bradley S. Jacobs

Hi Patapsco913. I have some concerns about your contributions to biographies of living people. Specifically, in this series of edits to Bradley S. Jacobs in July, it appears that you added the category Category:American Jews and added the claim that "Jacobs was born to a Jewish family in Providence, Rhode Island, the son of Charlotte Sybil (née Bander) and Albert Jordan Jacobs." You source this statement to two obituaries [1] [2] in legacy.com for his parents, neither of which even mentions anything about any of them being Jewish. When this content was removed, you vigorously and repeatedly reverted the removal with edit summaries such as "sorry you need this for the category he is in" (that's kind of putting the cart before the horse) and most strikingly "You do not have a source that he is not jewish" (this edit was made less than a week ago). WP:BLP is pretty explicit that the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material. It's the burden of the person who wishes to retain or restore material to provide high-quality sources to verify the material; in this case, the sources didn't even mention anyone (much less the article subject) being Jewish. (Not to mention concerns about the quality of the source itself -- often obituaries in local newspapers are written by family members, not editorial staff, and legacy.com does not give sufficient information to determine who wrote a particular obituary. I personally spent a considerable amount of time trying to find these articles from another source, to no avail.)

I see that there have been several previous notes and warnings about BLP issues. In December, Coffee, TheSandDoctor, and Oshwah extensively wrote about the sourcing requirements for BLPs in the specific context of your edits inappropriately identifying a particular person as Jewish, and especially in categorization.[3] TheSandDoctor wrote, "I just was made aware of this edit you made today introducing text stating that Maurice Kremer is Jewish in violation of WP:CAT/R. Please cease this immediately. Further edits of this sort without previous consensus and in blatant disregard for the above will result in a block. This is your final warning." (emphasis in original). Furthermore, you were alerted to BLP DS in December by Cameron11598. [4]

Accordingly, I feel I have no choice but to impose a sanction. I'm sorry to do this, Patapsco913, but I am imposing the arbitration enforcement sanction described in the next section. I will look favorably upon a request to ease or lift this sanction with an acknowledgement of the BLP issues thus far and a commitment to avoid further issues in the future, after a record of contributions that shows a strong understanding of sourcing and verifiability requirements across Wikipedia. Please don't hesitate to reach out if you have any questions. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 00:40, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

L235, I continue to be troubled by this issue – BLP violations for callings Jews, Jews. Can you explain why it was wrong to say that Jacobs was born into a Jewish family? Why aren't the family obituaries sufficient sources for the family's Jewish identity?

Same question for Maurice Kremer – reviewing the conversation that followed TheSandDoctor's warning, do you still think that saying Maurice Kremer is Jewish is a BLP violation?

I do not see this editor making BLP violations, and I really do not understand why a few administrators seem to think it's a BLP violation to add Jewish categories or text, even when the sources support the Jewish identity. What gives? Maurice Kremer was a French Jewish American, and Brad Jacobs grew up in a Jewish family. And the sources in the articles say so. Why is this at all controversial? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 04:34, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I can't believe we're having this conversation, Levivich. The sources do not say the parents are Jews. At best, you could say that they tend to suggest/imply that the parents are Jewish; a far more fair interpretation of the sources is that they're likely-primary (and BLP-noncompliant) sources that simply do not state the parents are Jews. And even if the sources definitively and reliably established the parents were Jewish, it is a BLP violation to engage in NOR-style synthesis and categorize the son in "Category:American Jews". As for the question implicit in your tone, "why the hell are you wasting your time on this?" – those with access to the oversight OTRS queue can confirm that ticket:2020030210009186 provides ample evidence that these BLP violations have not been harmless error. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 05:36, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I likewise cannot believe we're having this conversation, Kevin. You referenced Maurice Kremer and Bradley S. Jacobs.

Maurice Kremer's article states that he is a founder of Congregation B'nai B'rith, now Wilshire Boulevard Temple, the oldest Jewish congregation in Los Angeles. There are two sources in Kremer's article: [5] [6]. How can you, or TheSandDoctor, or anyone, say that it's a BLP violation to say that Maurice Kremer was Jewish? This example seems beyond question; I really don't get how that was a valid "warning", when the guy was a founder of a Jewish congregation. Oh yeah, I didn't even realize until just now... Maurice Kremer isn't a BLP. He's been dead 100 years. So why is that article being brought up in relation to BLP concerns?

Let's talk about the parents of Bradley S. Jacobs, Charlotte Jacobs [7] and Albert Jacobs [8]. How can you say that those two obituaries don't say that Charlotte and Albert Jacobs were Jewish? For one thing, there's a Star of David right there on both obituaries. Second, it's a Jewish funeral home (hence the Star of David). Third, the obituary announces shiva time. Charlotte's obituary talks about how she sat shiva for her mother for a year. Her obituary was published in The Jewish Voice & Herald [9]. I mean, these are Jewish biographies of people who are receiving Jewish funeral rights from a Jewish funeral home, and we're not sure if they're Jewish?! Of course these sources establish that the parents were Jewish. You really think it's a BLP violation to say that Jacobs "was born to a Jewish family"? A more accurate construction would be to say, "He was born to Jewish parents" instead of "He was born to a Jewish family", but is there even really a difference? This is semantics, at most a content dispute, but not a BLP violation.

As for the category, Category:American Jews, is the son of American Jews an American Jew? Yeah, I would say yes. But whether Jacobs should be in Category:American Jews or in Category:American people of Jewish descent is a content dispute about categorization. At most, it's a mis-categorization, but it's not a BLP violation. Of course there's the argument that it's un-DUE to include the Jewish parents; if secondary sources don't talk about that, then it's not a significant part of his biography. And if the article didn't mention Jewish parents or Jewish family, then there'd be no basis for either category. But I would expect that this would be resolved with talk page discussion or an RFC for this particular biography–not with sanctions. It's a content dispute, it's not like he's that far off "the Jewish mark" (pun intended). Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 06:02, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Fine, I'm vacating the topic ban and submitting this for review at AE. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 06:35, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement sanction

The following sanction now applies to you:

You are indefinitely banned (WP:TBAN) from making edits related to living or recently deceased individuals (within the meaning of WP:BLP). Any administrator may grant an exception from this ban for you to edit a particular article.

You have been sanctioned for the reasons provided in the preceding section.

This sanction is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons#Final decision and, if applicable, the procedure described at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions. If the sanction includes a ban, please read the banning policy to ensure you understand what this means. If you do not comply with this sanction, you may be blocked for an extended period, by way of enforcement of this sanction—and you may also be made subject to further sanctions.

You may appeal this sanction using the process described here. I recommend that you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template if you wish to submit an appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. You may also appeal directly to me (on my talk page), before or instead of appealing to the noticeboard. Even if you appeal this sanction, you remain bound by it until you are notified by an uninvolved administrator that the appeal has been successful. You are also free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 00:40, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Following Levivich's objection, I am vacating this sanction and submitting this to AE for review. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 06:37, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Notice of Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a report involving you at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement regarding a possible violation of an Arbitration Committee decision. The thread is Patapsco913. Thank you. —Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 06:37, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Other business people you might be interested in

Sam Miller (businessman), Max Samuel Grifenhagen, Leo Steiner, Milton Parker, and Bernard London all look like the kind of individuals you might want to add to List of Jewish American businesspeople (assuming you can find sources). Jayjg ^(talk) 18:08, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Same goes for Eli M. Black, Mark Fields (businessman), Seth Goldman (businessman), and Adolf Rosenberger. For people like Miller, Goldman and Fields, you should probably link as Mark Fields etc.Jayjg ^(talk) 21:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

No interest in these individuals? Jayjg ^(talk) 15:52, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi there. I will get on them eventually. I have been doing some work on World War II Japanese warships. The issue with Coffee was exhausting and I am still trying to figure how to deal with all the reverts he made (probably 100). https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Coffee&offset=20200116081915&target=Coffee Was it wrong for me to state that someone is from a "Jewish family" when all I have is that they are Jewish. I thought it was a less awkward way to state it but perhaps Coffee was correct since they may have converted.16:14, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

If the source says someone is Jewish, you should stick to indicating they are Jewish; stating they are "from a Jewish family" is OR. Coffee's requirements were stricter than is required, but most of Coffee's deletions from most of the "Jewish lists", were, in general, justified. That said, the List of Jewish American businesspeople and sub-lists are in better shape (in terms of sourcing and completeness) than most of the other Jewish lists, and that is due in no small part to your efforts. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:12, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Jayjg, I may not be around much longer. They have me in the arbitration enforcement area because of the Coffee incident Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement and a subsequent edit. I hope you don't mind that I quoted you regarding the standard for including someone as Jewish that you stated below. Patapsco913 (talk) 18:43, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed that. Now that the imposed topic ban has been undone, I don't think much will actually come of this, but will probably comment there at some point. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:22, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Frustrations upon frustrations

Hi Patapsco913. I'm Kevin. I'm deeply sorry that our introduction happened this way. I don't normally do dramaboard stuff; this AE filing may be the first time I've started a thread at a dramaboard in years. By way of explanation, I first happened across this as a result of an OTRS ticket (I don't think I can disclose more specifics). In the process of responding to it, I began drafting a note on your talk page. Only after I noticed the previous warnings for the same issue did I feel compelled to resort to sanctions; you may be able to tell that the note I left did not start as a sanctions message. I hate wasting your time with this administrative crap as much as I hate wasting my time with this; we have the same goal here, which is to improve Wikipedia and ensure that its contents are neutral and accurate, especially as it relates to living people and their identity. I don't know what more I can do to help resolve this but watch as AE administrators make their decisions – my firm position is still that writing that Bradley S. Jacobs as an American Jew on the basis of the provided sources clearly contravenes BLP. But, at the very least, I wanted to commiserate with you, as much as I am able, on how frustrating and stressful Wikipedia's dispute resolution mechanisms can be, especially our conduct ones. Though it probably seems hollow coming from the person who is the acute cause of frustration and drama, I am wishing you the best and I remain grateful for your hard work. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 23:10, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Hey its alright. I just worry that it seems that most people consistently refer to being Jewish means being a religious Jew - which requires a higher standard of proof - when the truth is much more complicated than that. Heck guys like Sergei Brin are no longer Jewish anymore. Basically, there will be very few Jewish biographies left if it requires multiple sources of self-identification. Where are we going to find that for someone who died over a hundred years ago? Anyhow, on Bradley S. Jacobs, I was reverting a bunch of of sock puppets (who I was able to get blocked) to a prior version. I look at someone who has Jewish parents as Jewish and Jacob's parents were obviously Jewish if people were sitting shiva for them. Maybe stating they Jacobs was of Jewish descent is better? I would love to know where Wikipedia has a discussion on this but I cannot find one. Patapsco913 (talk) 02:02, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Just letting you know that I assume you wanted to ping many people in your AE posting, but I didn't get pinged, I just have the page on my watchlist. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 03:34, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 5

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Japanese auxiliary minesweeper Tama Maru (1936), you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Sazanami (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 12:11, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

100,000th edit!

	100,000th edit award
	Hello P. Let me be the first to congratulate you on your 100,000th edit! You are now entitled to place the 100,000 Edit Star on your bling page! or you could choose to display the {{User 100,000 edits}} user box. Or both! Thanks for all your work at the 'pedia! Cheers, — MarnetteD|Talk 05:04, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Just wanted to make sure you got my ping

...at WP:AE ~Awilley (talk) 19:00, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! 20:04, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Patapsco913 closed

I have closed the AE thread with a result of "no consensus", so you will not be under any formal sanction. But you will be under more scrutiny, and there are admins, myself included, who would quickly issue a WP:Topic ban if we see similar behavior. So please be very careful in the future about categorizing people as Jewish or even saying that someone was born to a Jewish family. In terms of sourcing, you should not be using WP:Primary sources, but high quality WP:Secondary sources. And remember that it's not always necessary for Wikipedia to mention things like religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, political affiliations, etc. We only mention it when it's a WP:Notable part of their biography. So in general going around adding "He is Jewish" to articles isn't very encyclopedic. I'm not saying you can't do it ever, but I'm saying you need to be very careful about it. OK? ~Awilley (talk) 22:13, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks! Patapsco913 (talk) 23:37, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

April 2020 at Women in Red

April 2020, Volume 6, Issue 4, Numbers 150, 151, 159, 160, 161, 162 April offerings at Women in Red. Online events: New: Gender studies / Dance / Geofocus: Caucasus Photo and image campaign: #VisibleWikiWomen Continuing initiatives: #1day1woman / Sports! Editor feedback: Schedule planning at the Virtual Ideas Cafe Join the conversations on our talkpage Social media: Facebook / Instagram / Pinterest / Twitter Stay in touch: Join WikiProject Women in Red / Opt-out of notifications

--Rosiestep (talk) 15:00, 23 March 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

A barnstar for you.

		The Citation Barnstar
		For your addition to the USCGC Thetis (WPC-115) with the Dropkin reference. What a wonderful amount of information it contained! Thank you! Cuprum17 (talk) 17:38, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I stumbled on that and thought the same.Patapsco913 (talk) 02:05, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Maurice Kremer

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Proposed deletion of Milton H. Biow

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Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. 217.150.87.242 (talk) 18:37, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Maurice Kremer

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A tag has been placed on Maurice Kremer requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person, a group of people, an individual animal, an organization (band, club, company, etc.), web content, or an organized event that does not credibly indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

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Speedy deletion nomination of Milton H. Biow

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A tag has been placed on Milton H. Biow requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person, a group of people, an individual animal, an organization (band, club, company, etc.), web content, or an organized event that does not credibly indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. 217.150.87.242 (talk) 00:29, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Joy Silverman

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A tag has been placed on Joy Silverman requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person, a group of people, an individual animal, an organization (band, club, company, etc.), web content, or an organized event that does not credibly indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. 217.150.87.242 (talk) 00:34, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

"Archbishop of of Marseille" listed at Redirects for discussion

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