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(talk page stalker) Don't mind us, just go about your editing.


Words ... even harder!Edit

appaling ;) --IHTS (talk) 20:04, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

@Ihardlythinkso: Welp... Just going to hide back out in draftspace for a while if you need me lolMJLTalk 20:08, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Important stuffEdit

Hello, thank-you, i am good, hope you are also okay, could you please restore categories for Colleen Clifford

  Done  MJLTalk 15:25, 2 August 2019 (UTC)


Hi, my article did not get published because there wasn't enough inline citations. I was hoping to find an editor who can help me rewrite the article to standard. Am still finding my footing here so am new to the wiki does and don't.

I Would love to ping you but I don't no how to do that either. Please I need help.Dee 06:42, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

@Duthperod: No worries. Let me review your email and get back to you in a bit. In the meantime, may I suggest playing The Wikipedia Adventure? It is a fun game that teaches you all about how to edit Wikipedia. Also, to ping someone, read Help:NotificationsMJLTalk 15:50, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, will be awaiting your feedback. Dee 10:50, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

@Duthperod: you seemed to have gotten lost in trying to reply to me lol. –MJLTalk 14:51, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
@MJL: lol, I really don't no how I got here. Thanks for helping out on the article, should I resubmit the article?Dee 19:55, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
@Duthperod: Nah, I'd hold off for a bit. Trim the article down to only stuff that is directly supported by an inline citation to a reliable source per WP:V (Help:Citing sources)). Then resubmit when the article only has the content that is absolutely necessary. –MJLTalk 20:43, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Also, your signature doesn't link to your user page. You might want to get that fixed. Try pasting this code in your preferences: [[User Talk:Duthperod‬|Dee]] To get the following result: Dee
And then be sure to check the box that says Treat the above as wiki markup.
Cheers! –MJLTalk 20:49, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
@MJL: I have trimmed down the article and added references. Please do help me go through the article again to see if I still have to work on it before submitting it. Dee 15:51, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
@Dee Before I start, I noticed that a lot of the article has minor problems that are somewhat easy to notice. If you go to your preferences by clicking here, then check the box next to Display links to disambiguation pages in orange you'll see that a lot of your links are actually to disambiguation pages.
While I just made a few minor corrections, I'm afraid there are some issues that still need to resolve that I am less able to commit to being able to help you with. Glen Allen Grubbs seems to have played a role in Saudi Arabia–United States relations similar to Erik Prince. If you want to check out really good articles to get a sense for how Wikipedia really structures its content, I spent some time searching for a good article to use as a model or guide, and the best I came up with was Vannevar Bush or Wesley Clark.
The important thing is to ensure the article meets Wikipedia:Verifiability and No original research. If you want help finding sources, I can certainly help with that. However, right now it isn't clear to me exactly where you are getting most of the information from. On Wikipedia, even opinions should be cited or qualified to meet WP:NPOV and WP:OPINION. Sorry I can't be more of a help.  MJLTalk 17:08, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!Edit

  The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
Thank you for your work reverting the offensive edits by the the IP editor recently. It's much appreciated. KNHaw (talk) 05:38, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
@KNHaw: Taumata994 should get all the credit for that. This vandal specifically asked if I was born with cow face. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯MJLTalk 05:48, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
I noticed that particular edit as well. I will never understand the mindset of these vandals. I can only think they stopped maturing at 5 or so... although that might constitute an insult to the kindergarten set.
As far as Taumata994 is concerned, don't worry. I thanked them as well!
--KNHaw (talk) 06:46, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
@KNHaw: Well, if you'll see your talk page for a moment because your kindness is appreciated.  MJLTalk 15:21, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Aw, thanks! --KNHaw (talk) 16:49, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Can you say no to this cow face?
Can you say no to this cow face?
I think we can AGF that the IP wasn't a vandal but a cow vigilante, part of the cow protection movement, and "born with a cow face" was just asking you, WanderingWanda and El_C about yoga poses. Levivich 16:42, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
@Levivich: lol maybe, but I also prefer to WP:AAGFAAGF. Also: don't think I didn't notice your use of   recently.  MJLTalk 16:54, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Filmography sectionEdit

Hello, how are you, will do the filmography again soon, cannot do them at the moment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:20, 9 August 2019 (UTC) may need some help soon, my friend, kind regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:53, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Got it! I'm on standby if anything is needed.  MJLTalk 15:02, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Wikipedia:WikiGooseEdit

  Wikipedia:WikiGoose, a page which you created or substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiGoose and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Wikipedia:WikiGoose during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Guerillero | Parlez Moi 17:48, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Slender glass lizardEdit

I found out that there is another common belief about the lizard so I made a new hook that mentions both. I could only mention one, but I think that two of them makes the hook more interesting. I also updated the article. SL93 (talk) 00:46, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

@SL93: Responded there, but I edit conflicted with you btw.  MJLTalk 00:47, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Please stop, or at least slow downEdit

I know that you're enthusiastic about editing Wikipedia, but in the last couple of weeks I've seen you add unnecessary comments at BN, PERM, and AN, to name a few. If you have something relevant to add to a conversation, by all means do so, but random "witty" comments regarding inactive admins, people you think should be admins, etc. should be left to those individuals' talk pages. I know there are others out there that seem to have a penchant for adding banter to even the most serious of conversations, and most of the time it works, but yours come across as simply an attention-getter without any real substance. Primefac (talk) 20:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

@Primefac: My apologies. I've stricken one of the recent comments that I believe you are referring to. The other I take it is this which is now archived. I'll refrain from making such types of comments in the future. Sorry.. –MJLTalk 20:34, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. I don't necessarily mean to say that you have to stop completely, but just consider that off-topic banter is best saved for special occasions ;-) Primefac (talk) 20:51, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
@Primefac: Well... you caught me when I am especially sensitive to this sorta thing. Normally, I'd just add it to the Wall of Shame and keep it mind for the future. Not the best timing! lol –MJLTalk 20:56, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
My apologies then for the poor timing; never fun going through a crisis of faith. Primefac (talk) 21:02, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi MJL. If you'd hear me out for a minute, I'd like to elaborate on what Primefac said above, because I think the message perhaps hasn't gotten across. I can see that when you get involved with administrative discussions (the ones I'm thinking about are principally at AN and AE, and now at ARBCOM) you are trying to be helpful. The trouble is that the disputes you have inserted yourself into have a long, long, history, and have taken different turns as the culture of Wikipedia has evolved. You've approached those disputes with a decent knowledge of policy, but you haven't been here long enough to be familiar with the histories of those conflicts. Fundamentally, arbitration, and really every dispute resolution process, is meant to ameliorate conflict to the extent that we can all get back to productive editing; so a naive application of policy simply isn't sufficient. You need to let people more experienced with those situations deal with them. Here's a suggestion; stay away from all discussions at the admin boards except for those that involve conflicts you were a part of (and really this advice really applies to everybody on Wikipedia). You're neither the first nor the worst offender in this regard, so please don't take this personally; but if you keep your participation at AN/ANI/AE/ARBCOM to situations where its required, I think you'll find editing Wikipedia to be a happier experience. Best, Vanamonde (Talk) 20:05, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Fair enoughEdit

Struck. I had no idea how down you were. Chin up, it's only a website. With regards to AmericanAir88, and the insinuation I quick opposed based on the RfA, if you check the timings, you'll see that the FAC came first, so this is a fallacy. I even offered AmericanAir88 some advice and volunteered to help them at a peer review. Was you aware of that? CassiantoTalk 22:22, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

@Cassianto: While I appreciate the sentiment, it still irks me that you had written that only shortly after I had written this. You also still fundamentally see me as an enemy, opponent, or what-have-you when I have never felt the same for either you or Eric. We have rules, so I try to see they're enforced. I always try to avoid taking personal considerations into account. All I ask is people do the same for me. –MJLTalk 22:40, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
This is a website and one I'm not particularly wedded to. I don't know you, you don't know me. Up until two or three days ago, I'd never even heard of you. I don't have "enemies" on here; I have people who I disagree with, sure, as most do. Did you know that Serial Number 54129 and I got off on the wrong foot, and he even called me a "cunt" (there's a diff somewhere). I got over it, as did he, and now we meet up and have a beer together (we have to do that soon, SN). I consider him to be a very good friend on here. Look, my point is, while I might disagree with you on Eric, I may agree with you on other things - the truth is, I don't even know you. To say you're an "enemy" is emotive and hugely wrong. If you chose not to accept that, that's up to you, I certainly won't go begging for forgiveness, not from anyone. CassiantoTalk 23:02, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
@Cassianto: Look, I'm not trying to get too into the weeds here. We're all still people though, so sure it doesn't matter what website in particular we're on as long as we're being civil with one another.
I'm a little skeptical of that timeline because you started conversing with me at Talk:Cotswold Olimpick Games by asking if I had an axe to grind. That doesn't seem like something a person who never had heard of me would say?  
Separately, what-have-you is kind of the catch-all term for whatever you wanna call a person you think is harassing your friend. It really doesn't matter, though. We are probably good here.  MJLTalk 23:18, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't care if you're skeptical - AGF, right, so you keep telling me? What I will say is when you posted there, and before I responded, I looked at your history - as I do with everyone when they post an edit, so I could differentiate between a sock, troll, or legit account, and responded. You have to remember, Eric has a lot of socks, trolls and baiters, as do I, so I want to know who I'm dealing with before I respond. I'm not bludgeoning this olive branch, so take it or leave it. I've said all I needed to say so I'll wish you well on your future endeavours. CassiantoTalk 23:47, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. –MJLTalk 00:05, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

A kitten for you!Edit

This kitten would like to offer you the following words of encouragement:

Prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Prrrrrrrrrr

WanderingWanda (talk) 23:30, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

@WanderingWanda: Kitty <3 *plays with yarn* –MJLTalk 00:05, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Guðrún BjörnsdóttirEdit

 On 12 August 2019, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Guðrún Björnsdóttir, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Guðrún Björnsdóttir, a 20th-century Icelandic politician and women's rights activist, was at one time a milk vendor? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Guðrún Björnsdóttir. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Guðrún Björnsdóttir), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 00:01, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Maile66: Thank you so much Maile!! :D –MJLTalk 00:05, 12 August 2019 (UTC)



Thank you for quality articles such as Tufan Erhürman, Guðrún Björnsdóttir and List of Connecticut weather records, for tagging Connecticut-related articles, for work Draft:Church of St. Nicholas in Tolmachi, for checking articles for creation such as Moira Millán, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

You are recipient no. 2265 of Precious, a prize of QAI. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:52, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: It's a great thought, but Tufan Erhürman had no involvement from me. The true creator of that gem was Sportscorrection.  
Either way, I have literally ALWAYS wanted one of these!!!  
So thank you so much! –MJLTalk 07:56, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
You are welcome, and I see now that yes you created the article but as a redirect. I just discoved the tool articles crated but should check better ;) - Anyway: great content additions! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:02, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
I am a friend of Eric Corbett, so am biased and won't appear in the arb request for which "o dear, not this again" is what hopefulyy the arbs also think. He wrote a fair share of today's featured article, did you know? He was the first to oppose loosing one of our best editors, see also: "WP has a strange way to restrict those who help the most (Pigsonthewing, Fram, Eric Corbett ...).". Perhaps simply withdraw that request? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
That really is excellent advice, Eric's content work is really the gold standard we should all be working towards. ClemRutter (talk) 08:37, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@ClemRutter and Gerda Arendt: I don't doubt your sincerity, but the most disruptive thing I could possibly do is start a request and change my mind midway through. A few individuals have already commented that they feel it should be accepted, and that generally means that I am unable to withdraw it. –MJLTalk 15:59, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Should I say thank you that you don't doubt my sincerity? - I haven't called a user disruptive, ever, and wonder why you should use that term. I haven't called someone to ANI, and never will, - I only went to ANI once, to achieve talk page access for a friend. I don't expect anything positive to come out of arbitration, ever. Sorry, arbs. The wisest thing seems still to be to withdraw the request, - let those who carry grudges be disappointed, - better than the friendly ones disappointed ;) - Further reading: "I know from personal experience how difficult it is to see yourself being discussed for weeks on end, often unfairly, without any effective redress, so keep your chin up.". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:08, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
I will repeat Gerda advice and say that the advice was to protect you from being dragged into the murky world of ANI spats- I have seen no long term good come out of any of them- as they always degenerate into recriminations. Some of our most illustrious content creators have left after producing awsome articles and been harried about some trivial language disagreement. With more experience you will see how this all fits into the global pattern- come and join us at a meetup and discuss the full story. I checked out the WP:WikiProject Frisia project that you say you are interested in - there is certainly a lot of work to be done there. z.B. Baltrum seems to be a mainly a translation that needs to be Anglicised, Langeoog needs referencing and a lot of work... it is a better use of our time to contentrate on content creation rather than participating in long term feuds-- that does gain respect. ClemRutter (talk) 22:19, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

A troll for you!Edit

  Sometimes Wikipedia can make you feel like this
Heed WP:OWB#61: you've gotten too close, and now your brain hurts. But remember: Wikipedia is a weird place with millions of non-ugly things, like this picture, and this totally unrelated article. Levivich 04:38, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
@Levivich: Lmao, is that person cosplaying Feferi? XD –MJLTalk 05:17, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
I think so, cuz the ears. Levivich 05:25, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
@Levivich: I have just received confirmation from a Homestuck that doesn't edit Wikipedia that this is a Meenah cosplay. Also, today I learned a lot about lexical ambiguity.. Huh. –MJLTalk 06:07, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
She also says she needs to backup her claim about that being Meenah. She says you can tell because of the headband and different style glasses. –MJLTalk 06:11, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Oh yeah, the glasses are a dead giveaway! Levivich 15:24, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
@Levivich: Thanks for being an awesome WikiFriend Levivich.  MJLTalk🍰 15:51, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Likewise, MJ! And happy birthday! Levivich 16:44, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Bob BolinEdit

+++ How can I recover the draft article US Army Transportation Intelligence Agency to put the references into proper order and make other corrections so that I can submit it for review?

Thanks Bob Bolin — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bob Bolin (talkcontribs) 01:00, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

@Bob Bolin: It is currently located at Draft:Transportation Intelligence Agency. My apologies for the confusion! –MJLTalk 01:03, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Southwest PGAEdit

@MJL::Thanks so much for looking at the edit of Southwest PGA. I did take the first reviewer's comments and edited the copy so it didn't read "a bit like an advertisement" and changed it pretty well. I also provided examples of other golf organizations (USGA and the PGA of America. Very similar especially other PGA Sections like Illinois PGA). That doesn't even have any ref's, which I went back and added. Regarding the reliable sources, they are straight from the PGA of America, which I think everyone would site as reliable. I can look for other articles but I think the PGA would know how many Sections thay have and it's pretty well documented. Regarding the Chapters of the Southwest PGA, well the same. Can you let me know your suggestions for what you saw or were you basing it off the first reviewers comments becasse there weren't any ref's in there when they saw it. I did edit it and added. I just wanted to get this one up becasue I spent a significant amount of time on the Arizona Open page and it came out really well and that Southwest PGA adminsiters it. Really appreciate your assistance MJL! Bmadrid19 (talk) 06:07, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

@Bmadrid19: You have caught me on a great day!! Basically, there are several other problems with that draft article (even assuming I looked past the reference issues). The entire lead section was copied from their press release (which is woefully not okay).[1] Further, several claims were unsoured altogether (now tagged). I added a source for you, but there are still numerous problems that exist for the article. Please address the copyright concerns first. After that, I'm willing to let the primary source concern issue slide assuming you have enough WP:Reliable sources to meet WP:GNG, I'll pass the article.  MJLTalk🍰 15:50, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
@MJL:THANKS MJL. I'm so happy you're having a great day and thank you so much for the suggestions and assistance. It really does help. I will get on those items today and get it all ready for you and hit you up to take another look. Hope youre awesome day continues and talk shortly. Thanks again. Youre awesome! Bmadrid19 (talk) 18:18, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
@MJL:Ok, MJL now give it a twirl. I edited the copy so no more copyright issues. Added ref's as you suggested. I think I covered everything you suggested to me, which I really appreciate it. Can you give it a look and see if it's good to go and if so, approve. Thanks again for all your assistance. Bmadrid19 (talk) 20:56, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
@MJL:Hey MJL, I know you were busy but did you get a chance to see my changes per your suggestions for the page? Would appreciate it if you can take a look and if good to go since I did everything you noted, to approve. Thanks and have a great day!Bmadrid19 (talk) 20:05, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Outline of the Northwest Territories has been acceptedEdit

Outline of the Northwest Territories, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
The article has been assessed as Na-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article. Thanks again for all your assistance. Bmadrid19 (talk) 20:56, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. If your account is more than four days old and you have made at least 10 edits you can create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer.

Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia!

DGG ( talk ) 06:54, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, DGG!!!  MJLTalk🍰 15:07, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Happy Birthday!`Edit

It's my IRL birthday, and I plan on shamelessly being a shut-in for literally as much as I possibly can today (I do have actual plans with family for tonight). I just made history with my userscript WP:Archer, and I plan a double DYK nom that I wanna turn into a triple. I've also got this cool special signature with a shortcake emoji. It'll link to this message to let people know about how big of a day it is! I have been planning this for a while now!! <3 –MJLTalk🍰 15:04, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Requests from WVEdit

Hello, need help to restore article Alan Hopgood, have added more credits for screenwriter, but forgot to put heading if you could also add would be appreciated., regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:28, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, my friend! I'm doing great on my birthday today! I hope the same for you!! –MJLTalk🍰 20:59, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Hello Again, i have just added some more filmography for Alan Hopgood, so we have his actors credits and writing roles, how did you go on our article of ALAN ROWE, Australian actor — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:01, 13 August 2019 (UTC) Happy Birthday!!!, have a good day — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:38, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Hopgood is all good! Haven't gotten to Alan Rowe yet though. I gotta big project to do for the rest of the week, sorry. Regards, –MJLTalk 17:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Our Lady of VladimirEdit

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Our Lady of Vladimir you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria.   This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Johnbod -- Johnbod (talk) 16:20, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your GA review of Report of the Commission of Inquiry on Human Rights in the DPRKEdit

Dear MJL, i just wanted to send you a brief note to thank you for your efforts in conducting the review of the Report of the Commission of Inquiry on Human Rights in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea for its GA nomination. For the next few days I will be mostly unavailable, but shortly after I look forward to addressing your review points in detail. Thank you for giving me some time to address them. Thank you very much! Al83tito (talk) 19:36, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

@Al83tito: It's the least I can do! Let's just hope it gives me some good karma (lol). Please, take your time.  MJLTalk 19:41, 16 August 2019 (UTC)


Well, if what Eric Corbett has just said about scrambling his password in your ridiculous ArbCom request does actually happen, I'm disgusted at that outcome. You've admitted that you don't know much about what has gone on, you've admitted not knowing how to frame the case, and you've actually instigated a request against the wrong person. You will indubitably have upset a lot of people. My suggestion to you is to lie low and definitely keep well away from any of the main noticeboards until you have more experience - that's WP:AN, WP:ANI, WP:AE and all such similar pages. I have a memory that I've seen someone ask you to consider this before but, if so, you clearly have ignored them. If you continue to ignore and you continue to make inappropriate contributions to such noticeboards, I'm pretty sure that someone will propose sanctions against you because you have already effectively painted a target on your back with present displays of procedural incompetence etc. You most likely can recover from this situation if you rein things in and stick to improving articles, which is what I hope you will do. Yes, we're supposed to treat everyone with respect here but this place is a reflection of the real world also: respect is earned and lost. - Sitush (talk) 17:58, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

@Sitush: I never admitted to not knowing what was going on. I have admitted to being an unwilling victim of Eric's unsavory rhetoric. I also said that arbcom can change the frame of the case; not that I wanted them to or was unsure of how to frame it. I am sympathetic to the arguement that Eric is being harrassed, and I have respect for SV and anyone else trying to make that arguement. Do not mistake my sympathy for agreement.
I actually didn't ignore the advice of SN and others. I went on to contribute positively and make several articles. However, my legacy as a drama-monger proceeds me. I'm fine with that. I don't edit Wikipedia to make people like me; I edit Wikipedia to work cooperatively with other people including those who downright despise me.
The thing is.. I could've just simply made a report to T&S, so Eric could quietly be Fram-banned or whatever we're calling it. I'm a "new editor" who willfully admits to being in over their head, so I'm an easy target for anyone looking for one. The safe thing for me to do would've been to report to T&S. I mean, few admins were taking my concerns seriously. This being the case, I still chose to make a public case in the spirit of self-governance.
I have a clean block record, never knowingly insulted anyone, and am in the middle of my first GAN. The idea that I deserve to be the one blocked, when my best days are still ahead of me, is sort of absurd. That isn't on you, Eric, or anyone else, though. –MJLTalk 18:19, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
As for staying off the noticeboards, I'm only on there when I have a routine report to file. –MJLTalk 18:19, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
You seem pretty sure T&S would have accepted the case. After everything, I'm much less sure. At any event, the matter was being resolved by the community (I even undid my own close so that the discussion could continue). It has only been a day or so — why not let the community try to deal with whatever issues you wish to raise before involving the Committee? The user has (or had) a set of restrictions which were being enforced at AE —with some disagreement— but enforced nonetheless. Anyway, I'm just not seeing how an Arbitration request was needed, but all the reasons that it wasn't are now made more obvious. El_C 19:36, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@El C: Based on my report alone? I doubt T&S would accept a case, I agree. However, I think, more likely than not, they've received other credible reports before. Mine would've been just one more to add to the pile, I guess.
I also didn't file the arbreq based on that one thread alone. It's just the latest in a series of threads we keep coming back to. I agreed with Guy's comment there that people were just digging in farther and farther. Something about Eric's current sanctions are not working. My suspicion is that comments like this are part of the reason why. –MJLTalk 19:58, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Maybe so, but the impetus for filing the request — well, that's just not right. Which you're failing to address. El_C 20:06, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@El C: Besides my admitted personal frustration with the process, the discussion was going nowhere that would lead to consensus from my perspective. Many participants were of the belief that the issues was already settled while the other half held no such notion. You can't have a proper discussion when that many commentators are not seeing any ongoing problem while the rest are furiously disagreeing about what that problem even is supposed to be. The alternative to a full case request was ARCA, but that setup does not lend itself well to these sorts of complicated disputes.
I guess it is only proper for me to ask, though: where did you, as an uninvolved admin, see the conversation going? I'll fully concede if I missed something that you otherwise saw there. –MJLTalk 20:21, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
What you keep failing to address is the following. EC, who I've been critical of in the past, has done nothing wrong, in this instance — yet, you think opening an Arbitration case about him was the right call at this time? Sorry, but that's just perplexing to me. I have no idea where the discussion might have gone. That's the point: you cut it short after only a day or so. El_C 20:32, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
The safe thing for me to do would've been to report to T&S. No, the safe thing would have been for you to do nothing. It isn't just admins who are having problems with what you do but also a tranche of very well-established non-admins, many like myself with more than 10 years' experience here. Why do you think none of those people were prepared to take it to ArbCom? - Sitush (talk) 20:26, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@Sitush: the safe thing would have been for you to do nothing Yeah, that is pretty much always the case when dealing with incivility. However, that doesn't make the problem simply go away. It just means you've accepted it. If it is not abundantly by now already, I'll say it again: I don't accept it. It's silly to suggest I should plan my experience here around users who just can't show basic decency to other people.
To your other point, I sort've knew that plenty of other users were ready to file. However, be them admins, superusers, or tenured editors; I am just within my rights to file as they are. I'm not sure why anyone would want to file.. because I mean... that's just absurd to desire going through this process. I knew going in that there would be calls for my head on a pike. I just figured it was worth it, and I said to myself: At least this way the person most at risk is just me rather than someone else more important. I'm willing to put myself at risk if it means the possibility of making the project better. The most we have to lose is me this way; and that isn't much, right? –MJLTalk 20:46, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Please don't make yourself out to be some sort of putative martyr. And no-one has suggested you should plan around people whom you consider to be incivil, just like I wouldn't suggest you plan around people who are plain incompetent. As for "sort've" knowing that other people were ready to file, well, I'm not sure how you knew that and am pretty sure from experience that the AN thread would not have ended up with an ArbCom case request put forward by anyone with a bit of clue. But do as you wish - you'll just find your time here limited and painful, again speaking from experience. - Sitush (talk) 21:08, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

The issue with your case request, in my view, is that the arbitration committee had exhausted its available options when it required that enforcement of its sanctions of the editor in question had to be done by request on the arbitration enforcement page. This was intended to ensure that the request was evaluated by uninvolved administrators in a more structured environment than the incidents noticeboard. If this mechanism isn't working, then the question is what is getting in the way? I do think there is a problem with expecting new editors to file arbitration enforcement requests. I think the forthcoming discussions on handling behavioural complaints to be initiated by the arbitration committee may open up new methods to deal with complaints, and so this is a better context in which to place the question of enforcing Eric Corbett's restriction, rather than a separate case. isaacl (talk) 21:20, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

It will likely be a rehash of the old RFC/U. People are putting the cart before the horse here, anyway: more often than not, Eric's outbursts come as a consequence of passive incivility/baiting. This is precisely the sort of nuanced thing about which MJL hasn't got a clue and it is precisely why the AN thread was opened. If MJL carries on like this and is still editing without restrictions in six months I will be astonished. - Sitush (talk) 21:24, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Who knows what form may be agreed upon by the group of editors who like to participate in these types of discussions, if any. isaacl (talk) 22:03, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
I think I've seen one of the arbs talking about it being in RFC form but perhaps they meant that the discussion regarding what to do would be in that form. In any event, there is literally no option available which would prevent the sort of stupidity that has just gone on and, indeed, is still going on. There will always be people with festering enmities, always those who are snowflakes, always the clueless and also the disingenuous etc: systems are there to be gamed and/or abused. - Sitush (talk) 22:09, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Yes, the further discussions are supposed to be in RfC form; it's unknown what participants will be able to agree upon for the any new complaint-handling procedures. Clay Shirky wrote about managing interpersonal issues in "A Group is its Own Worst Enemy"; it eventually becomes too cumbersome to manage these disputes through a wisdom-of-the-crowd process, and some kind of hierarchy is put in place. That obviously can lead to other inequities, so it's a choice as to which set of problems is a bigger obstacle for the community. Beyond a certain size, the community either has to live with the problems of hierarchy, or get smaller. isaacl (talk) 23:14, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

If it helps any I think you did what is best and what was likely to happen anyhow. Might as well get it over with and fix the issue. Keep up the good work and I am sorry to see such a response from others.   PackMecEng (talk) 00:15, 19 August 2019 (UTC)


Disregard this if you are a relatively new user.

While I wait for my ongoing projects like my ever-important GAN, AN/I report, various XfD's, reviewing Alan Rowe for WV, hatnote RFC, etc. to see feedback and action from other users, I'm going to go start work on a new draft article as I originally planned to do today. As such, I will not be responding to any Eric Corbett-related discussions (even if they include me) until later tonight. As always, I appreciate pings, but I'm not going to be allowing myself to participate in them until I finish my new draft. I'll still respond to anything that is related to my ongoing projects, though. Cheers, –MJLTalk 21:11, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

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