Talk:Shincheonji Church of Jesus

Requested support of WP:Notability from WP:WikiProject Korea

Reqest made here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Korea#Notability_of_Shinchonji_Church_of_Jesus_the_Temple_of_the_Tabernacle_of_the_Testimony.3F. Attempting to discern is this topic is notable, or whether the article should be deleted. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:52, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Invalid citation used for press section

I believe a local newspaper from America used in citation 7 is not an appropriate source to justify the claims made about the European press. Suggest deletion of the citation. Tomsmith87 23:35, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you that European Press source. (captured image here)(translated in English)

I know that the Korean protestantism media's sources aren't content with "neutrality". Because Nocut News and Kukinews are established by the Protestantism capital. They have bias to other religion especially toward Shinchonji church. And even they are Non-English sources. If someone tells about religion, it must be careful explanation because the religious conflicts. The sources which have objective point of view may be required. So I'll change that contents with the reliable sources.

And regarding Mannam Volunteer, the organization hadn't stated its official position on the issue. Nevertheless if something has doubt, anybody can speak conclusively before finding hard evidence. --211.234.199.25 (talk) 16:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I was under the impression that non-English sources were allowed. Also, mainstream media sources were deleted as well. Shinchonji is not well-liked by the mainstream media, true, but there are valid reasons for that. Junganghansik (talk) 01:56, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

If that source is non-English, it was reported by the European Press. I think that the source's link should be removed, but can use by off-line news. And if European news is not valid source, New Santa Ana news made a remark that seminar in Europe. So I reverted yours.

And I delete the non-official Korean anti site by WP:EXT. I wonder why User:Junganghansik made this document with anti view point. Why are you editing this document? WinnieDany (talk) 06:40, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

The Korea Herald is not an anti-SCJ organisation, and the viewpoint I'm trying to maintain is neutral, not anti-SCJ. This document needs to be edited because Wikipedia is not just for Shinchonji/Mannam followers, and if foreigners are being recruited into the organisation, they deserve to know what it's about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Junganghansik (talk • contribs) 08:03, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

New Santa Ana news is not a valid source for the reasons mentioned by Tomsmith87 and was deleted. An anonymous user suggested a European source, but this was not a a direct link, rather it was a re-post via a 3rd party making it an invalid citation. As for the other issues concerning 'pro / anti-SCJ bias,' they were not mentioned in the initial request by user Tomsmith87 and should be discussed in a separate subheading. Therealone89 10:40, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I will mention it again. The New Santa Ana article is not a valid source. I read it and it does not adequately prove the statements made in the paragraph. Therealone89 16:30, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Questions to Junganghansik

I have questions to editorial of User:Junganghansik. These questions should be considered by the guideline of Wikipedia. First, What is the mainstream Korean media? If your statement would be justifiable, you give the kind of mainstream Korean media. (Korea Herald is NOT mainstream Korean media.) But only the press of Protestantism and journalist who has religious beliefs states Shinchonji Church is cult. Most journals remarked the church with objective view point. In Korea, most protestants regard Unification Church as heresy, but anyone states "this church is cult" in Wikipedia. If you read the article regarding Unification Church, you can think that is described in objective point of view. I really wonder why you are taking biased articles simultaneously removing the others. I didn't think it is totally justifiable.

Second, external link that you inserted in is not appropriate source in accordance with the WP:EXT. Becuase that site is biased community toward the church. Expression about 'victim' is also biased. If there are any anti-Christ community, can't you insert this in document regarding Christ churches? I can assure you can't. I want to get your answer before you revert. WinnieDany (talk) 17:17, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

The Korea Herald is mainstream media in the English press, and since we aren't using Korean-language sources, it's one of the best in its field. And no, I haven't seen any positive press on Shinchonji outside Chonji News, and anyone can see by their name who they're controlled by. I understand it's hard for you as a believer to see Shinchonji objectively; it's hard for me as a non-believer too, because the church tries so hard to cover up information about itself.

I am willing to compromise: you can leave your press section up, but I will reupload my Korea Herald link, and it will be joined by more professional news sources over the following weeks. Also, I suggest you allow my changes on the Olympiad section: the Mannam link is outdated and is not objective, and it should be rewritten in the past-tense. If you take down the Herald link again I will take action to prevent a conflict of interest. Junganghansik (talk) 00:28, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Regarding Citation 5

I checked citation 5, and in the cited article (which was published Sept 7, nine days before the event), it mentions how Mannam Volunteer Association released a statement about the relationship of the event with Shinchonji. But in the wikipedia article, immediately after citation 5 are the words "neglecting to mention that their event would be held at the same time and location as the Shinchonji Olympiad." This statement is false and misleading, as an official statement was released, even as citation 5 says in the referenced article. Please edit it correctly or take the statement out. Even if citation 5 was not meant to be linked with that statement, there is not a link to support that statement.Thank you.---- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Let there be truth in the press (talk • contribs) 15:17, 3 November 2012 (UTC) The statement which was also very misleading, claiming that Mannam and Shinchonji are separate bodies, was released internally and not publicly made known. Mannam kept inviting foreigners without mentioning Shinchonji even after the statement was released. Junganghansik (talk) 07:35, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

removal of cited and notable facts

Peacebigline, could you please explain why you are removing correctly cited facts from this article? Is there a problem with the citation? Is it not relevant to this article? Is there some other problem? I'm trying so hard to assume good faith, but right now I just see a single purpose editor removing things without comment and good faith is becoming a little hard. But nevermind, that's why I'm typing here, maybe you have some reason that I haven't considered. thanksSpacecowboy420 (talk) 13:38, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

cult allegations

Now that this article is protected, could whoever really really really doesn't like the mention of cults on this article join some discussion about it? Constant sock puppets edits/reverts are not going to whitewash this article. Discussion might result in some form of compromise. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:43, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm assuming that now the sock accounts/IPs have been blocked, and the lack of response here, that the only objectors to my edits in regards to cult allegations, were made by a single purpose editor with a COI issue and total disregard of wikipedia policy. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:05, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

This article has been stripped of a lot of relevant information, including its leader's name and the various other organisations it runs, such as HWPL, Mannam, IWPG, IPYG. Also, Lee Man-hee's page has no link back to this page. It seems like the defenders of SCJ have gotten their wishes on both pages. Junganghansik (talk) 03:01, 29 December 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Junganghansik (talk • contribs) 03:00, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Picture restored

I had uploaded a picture at a previous time of the Shinchonji 6th National Olympiad in September 2012, which was deleted and replaced with an SCJ logo, despite the caption not being changed along with it. The picture has been added back in as it was before. Junganghansik (talk) 07:13, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm a little concerned about the license on that image. How is it licensed? Where was it sourced? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:44, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

I think it's been addressed, but it was taken by me with my camera at a SCJ event. Junganghansik (talk) 06:02, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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List of recent articles for inclusion.

I'm not much of an editor, but I have been reading with interest articles about this group. Here are some I think can help improve the article and help ward off the repeated acts of vandalism we have seen on this page:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11944703&ref=NZH_fb

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-07-11/apocalyptic-korean-christian-group-goes-different-names-critics-say-its-just-cult

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11817352

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11817395

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2016/12/116_221100.html

http://chinachristiandaily.com/2016-06-11/church/china-megachurch--chongyi-church--intruded-by-the-shinchonji-cult_1443.html

http://www.kukmindaily.co.kr/article/view.asp?arcid=0009880812

PeterDaley72 (talk) 08:37, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

article is clearly heavily biased anti-propaganda!

the article says nothing about the essential teachings of the supposed "cult", just wants to stick that "cult"-label on it, so people stop wanting to learn more... so can somebody insert a text-template infront of the article to alert to this fact? (I just don't have the time...) and then deliver content?! thanx!

and, by the way, the lemma is miss-spelled (distorting the sense of the organisation's title). they are calling themselves: "Shincheonji Church of Jesus, The Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony". so either this can be correctly and fully introduced or should be reduced to: "Shincheonji Church of Jesus", imho. HilmarHansWerner (talk) 19:37, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

To be fair, it is exceptionally hard to find public media sources about the beliefs of SCJ, since they are very secretive about their beliefs, and even require a 6-month indoctrination period for outsiders before they will answer questions. From personal experience, the currently cited sentences about metaphor and Lee's readings of prophesy being the source of their belief are accurate enough for an encyclopedic summary. 211.245.255.135 (talk) 07:57, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

WARP summit is an annual affair

Although there is an "activities" section, it doesn't mention the group's efforts to spread internationally, nor does it mention their largest annual event, which was previously called the WARP summit. It should be happening about this time of year. Has anyone found sources (even in Korean) about WARP 2019? 211.245.255.135 (talk) 08:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 24 February 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Shincheonji Church of Jesus. (closed by non-admin page mover) —Nnadigoodluck🇳🇬 08:35, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

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Shincheonji Church of Jesus the Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony → Shincheonji – As per WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:CONCISE. The current title is a mouthful and the group is commonly and simply known as Shincheonji. Hariboneagle927 (talk) 00:52, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Support moving to a more WP:CONCISE title. 'Shincheonji' or 'Shincheonji Church' seem to be the most common as reported in the news. -- AquaDTRS (talk) 02:27, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Support This is a very common sense move. Nuke (talk) 03:09, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Support But I think Shincheonji Church of Jesus might be better to seperate it from being thought as a church building? CcfUk2018 (talk) 06:11, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Support a move from this very long title, but I agree that Shincheonji Church of Jesus might be a better compromise between pedantic wordiness and excessive conciseness. I see reliable sources using a variety of formulations to avoid reciting the full name. This one seems best because some very high quality sources use it and it clarifies that this group claims to be Christian. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:50, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Suppport - needs to be moved, but that's too short and lacks clarity. Adding my support to a move to Shincheonji Church of Jesus. Which needs in any case to be created as a plausible redirect if it's not the new title. Doug Weller talk 10:00, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

They are not allowed to create a building anyways (because they are not legit anyways), so the shortest should be fine. — regards, Revi 12:04, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Support - Shincheonji without "Church" per WP:COMMONNAME and also WP:OFFICIAL.[1]―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:23, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Support - Shincheonji without "Church" per Phoenix7777. --Rosiestep (talk) 01:42, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Support but comment for others suggested because it called just as Shincheonji or Shincheonji Church. Because it is uncontroversial move, This RM should be technical. I also support for move to Shincheonji Church of Jesus as many media reports about coronavirus outbreak. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.242.51.208 (talk) 14:32, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Support, but moreso for Shincheonji Church of Jesus. Reliable sources have used all three versions (Shincheonji Church of Jesus the Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony, Shincheonji Church of Jesus, and Shincheonji), but I personally see the tendency to introduce the organization as Shincheonji Church of Jesus and then simply refer to it as Shincheonji throughout the rest of the article to avoid verbosity, like The New York Times and Yonhap News Agency. But even then, the same websites will refer to the church by it's full name in different articles. Per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY, "Shincheonji Church of Jesus" seems to fit the bill. ƏXPLICIT 01:56, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Support - Shincheonji without "Church" per Phoenix7777. The additional terms for disambiguation are not necessary at the moment, as there are no other significant "Shincheonji" references on the English Wikipedia. NoNews! 03:48, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Support - Shincheonji without "Church" per WP:COMMONNAME. Suddenly, this thing is getting lots of attention, and most of what I see just says "Shincheonji". Haakondahl (talk) 07:21, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Support - Shincheonji without "Church" per WP:COMMONNAME. Keep it short and simple and mention the long form in the intro. --Zinnmann (talk) 15:35, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Support Shincheonji Church of Jesus as first choice because it introduces the topic and is more clear than "Shincheonji", also it is widely used. buidhe 21:57, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Support move to Shincheonji Church of Jesus as it is the actual WP:OFFICIAL name per the organisation's website[2] and many other RS. — kashmīrī ^TALK 20:10, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Extra info on this church in Korean

https://www.hankookilbo.com/News/Read/202002251768045326

It apparently has a very controversial interpretation of the Book of Relevation. --Komitsuki (talk) 12:52, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Refs that lost their purpose listed here for convenience for possible rescuing

I removed these references because they misleadingly appeared to justify the Chinese from Wuhan link to the Shincheonji outbreak and an apparent case of a Chinese person bringing SARS-CoV-2 to Busan (though I don't say how Busan is related to Shincheonji, so that sentence could probably be removed. Feel free to add maybe one of the more useful ones if relevant. I don't think that WP:OVERKILL should be applied with overkill (removing too many references), but in this case, we had what appeared to be 7 references justifying two sentences but apparently none of them justified either sentence. Boud (talk) 20:59, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

References

Cult responsible for virus outbreak in S.Korea

This is pretty damning stuff from the well respected news site Foreign Policy.:

Shincheonji’s bad theology makes for worse public health. Shincheonji teaches illness is a sin, encouraging its followers to suffer through diseases to attend services in which they sit closely together, breathing in spittle as they repeatedly amen in unison. If they were off on their own, that might be one thing—but according to Shin Hyeon-uk, a pastor who formerly belonged to the cult, Shincheonji believes in “deceptive proselytizing,” approaching potential converts without disclosing their denomination. Shincheonji convinces its members to cover their tracks, providing a prearranged set of answers to give when anyone asks if they belong to the cult. Often, even family members are in the dark about whether someone is a Shincheonji follower. The net effect is that Shincheonji followers infect each other easily, then go onto infect the community at large."Cults and Conservatives Spread Coronavirus in South Korea". Foreign Policy. February 27, 2020.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.60.182 (talk)

There is plenty of damning things about pretty much every religion and cult. The purpose of this Talk page is to help draft a better encyclopaedia and not to bitch about the subject. — kashmīrī ^TALK 12:48, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

The post is clearly making a suggestion to edit the article with some wording of "increases Covid-19 spread due to their beliefs" and provides a source for that. I believe the source is insufficient for such an affirmation (FP is probably reliable but that piece is categorized as "argument", which I assume to mean "opinion piece"), but that is a far cry from "bitching about the subject". Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 16:56, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I second Tigraan.

Fyi their coronavirus microsite is of interest: https://en.shincheonji.kr/bv_covid19Response_9607 (-> http://archive.is/wip/TBafj) https://en.shincheonji.kr/bv_covid19Response_9589 etc.

- what they claim they did and when. Here is a salient sample from 20 FEB 2020:

(...) Despite such endeavors being made, it is deeply concerning that there has seen a series of cases where rumors and falsified information concerning Shincheonji are proliferated through media. Such fake news are colored with the bias that long-established Protestant churches in Korea created in an effort to defend the privileges they enjoy within the religious circle... The people behind such slandering are the main culprits of coercive conversion programs that involve abduction, confinement, physical assault, and even death of the youth and the old purely because they joined Shincheonji....

Zezen (talk) 06:12, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Update: these claims are pretty scary and important for the fellow editors:

(...) However, the witch hunt against Shincheonji Church of Jesus is carried to an extreme, and now that this has incited domestic violence and persecution, leading to the death of one of our congregants, we cannot but express our position. This is our earnest request. Please stop the curse and hatred towards Shincheonji. And we ask some media outlets that are slandering and suppressing Shincheonji using unconfirmed information and fake news to stop immediately.

Just for the reason that they belong to Shincheonji, two congregants have been killed already, one in 2007 and the other in 2018, both by a family member. For this same reason, another congregant in Ulsan faced violence and persecution by her husband, driving her into taking her own life on 26 February.

This congregant of the Ulsan Church had been suffering from domestic violence because of her affiliation with Shincheonji, and shortly before her death, she was assaulted for religious reasons and reported it to the police. Eight days after the first case of COVID-19 was confirmed in Shincheonji Church of Jesus, a death was caused by religious persecution. (...) We make it clear once again that we did not intend to delay providing the list of congregants or hide it. But it is true that providing such a list was not an easy decision for Shincheonji Church of Jesus. Among our congregants, there are many who suffer from domestic violence, persecution, and even life-threatening situations because of their faith. This is backed by the number of congregants who are taken to so-called Cult Counseling Offices and face confinement, violence, and illegal acts, and the number amounts to more than 100 congregants per year. In the midst of such persecution, two female congregants lost their lives, one killed by her husband and the other by her father, and there was the third victim on the 26th. (...) Since the situation occurred, some 4,000 cases of injustice against Shincheonji congregants have been reported already, which include notices of termination of employment, workplace bullying, domestic persecution, labeling, and slandering.

(...) Please stop framing Shincheonji as the main culprit of the COVID-19 outbreak by turning passive attitudes of congregants, caused by fear, into actions intended to spread the virus....

https://en.shincheonji.kr/bv_covid19Response_9607 -> http://archive.is/wip/y9nqk

which would explain why they have been so secretive, this contributing to the epidemics.

Please also excuse a bit of my WP:OR here while quoting from their site.

-> As Wikipedians we should thus treat such claims carefully, further to WP:BLP or even under a more strict policy that I may not be aware of yet.

Zezen (talk) 06:22, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

• BLP does not apply to organizations, but to individual persons. If there are reliable sources saying virus spread was accelerated through Shincheonji members' actions or inactions, we should report it. I opposed 81.141.60.182's proposed addition to Wikipedia because the reference given is an opinion piece, but I am personnally inclined to believe that opinion piece. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 14:25, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I know that WP:BLP does not formally apply here, but as per above individual persons may suffer (or more) if this very article is used for off-the-cuff accusations or vigilantism, a random example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Bijan_Ebrahimi or recent https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/01/india-delhi-after-hindu-mob-riot-religious-hatred-nationalists

Let us hold our horses then before e.g. a court case verdict.

Zezen (talk) 14:45, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

• We are not going to censor reliably-sourced information because idiots might act on it irrationally.

Ten minutes of searching turn out numerous reliable sources to support the fact that Shincheonji members were the initial cluster of contamination in Korea. In particular, [Ji-Il] Tark said Shincheonji followers are likely more vulnerable to virus infections as they often sit very closely on the floor during services, a line lifted from the Associated Press report, is present in numerous news reports, so it would be well justified to use it with attribution (i.e. according to Ji-Il Tark, ...). Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 17:18, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

LetterOpener (talk) 15:24, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

• On 24 March 2020, the Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention listed Shincheonji as responsible for 4,383 COVID-19 cases out of 6,442 in Daegu, or 68%, though the KCDC has subsequently removed the church from listings in Daegu after 24 March. Links below are the current version and the archive.org backup.

1. https://www.cdc.go.kr/board/board.es?mid=a30402000000&bid=0030&act=view&list_no=366633&tag=&nPage=6
2. https://web.archive.org/web/20200422143503/https://www.cdc.go.kr/board/board.es?mid=a30402000000&bid=0030&act=view&list_no=366633&tag=&nPage=1

Why would a doomsday cult be interested in, er.. spreading doom? The S. Korean prosecutors need to get on the ball and throw this dangerous idiot in jail before he fulfills his own prophesy...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.200.247.128 (talk • contribs)

The only fear I have is If we don't correct, you notice I said we, everyone with all your insight, information gathering, help me correct this injustice. People of high power, that know the law, preach they abide by the "Rule of Law" If that be the truth, then I am a Prince on Ancestor of Genisus and am entitled, to gold, minerals, oil, Statues at Large as thick as book, so "we" can prosper Thesenatemployee (talk) 21:07, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

"230 000 followers were interviewed" - extraordinary claim, where are the extraordinary sources?

The article says Interviews have occurred with all 230,000 members of the religious group... sourced to this BBC article. The relevant paragraph of the article reads, in its entirety: All 230,000 members of the church have been interviewed. Nearly 9,000 said they were showing symptoms of coronavirus..

First, it implies that a few hundred thousand people could be identified by their religious affiliation; but going by the lead of Religion in South Korea, the SK government does not even have uncontested statistics about the number of Catholics in the country, so I doubt they have a list of names for the Shincheonji practitioners. Who organized those interviews? Second, it implies a large-scale screening campaign (hundreds of thousands of people interviewed) that apparently left no trace in the English-speaking press. Even though the BBC is a reliable source, that is quite an extraordinary claim, hence a single article is not enough to source it (there are other mentions in the British press but they cite the BBC article).

My wild, original-research guess is that some interviews were organized internally by the church itself and they communicated it to journalists under no-attribution terms. If so, the 230,000 number is not reliable (since they have an vested interest in inflating their practitioner numbers) and should not be said in Wikipedia's voice; I would even say the whole sentence should go. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 17:36, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

[[3]] Membership list was provided to government. So I do believe that the government conducted examinations of everyone they could locate. Slywriter (talk) 18:04, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Reuters stated All of its 210,000 known followers are being tested amid unprecedented scrutiny from authorities and the public. It's not extraordinary that a test is conducted alongside questions such as "have you been exposed to someone with symptoms". IMO, the situation is extraordinary but interviewing subjects of medical tests is not extraordinary in and of itself. Bri.public (talk) 18:10, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the sources, you both. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 12:12, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Inconsistent title

• Shincheonji Church of Jesus – name of article
• Shincheonji, Church of Jesus, the Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony (SCJ), informally known as Shincheonji Church – lede
• Shincheonji, Church of Jesus -line break- Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony of New Heaven, New Earth – infobox

Just pointing out that the current revision has three different variations of the organization's title in the article name, the bold title in the lede, and in the infobox. - Bri.public (talk) 00:00, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, the second quoted text should probably have of Jesus at the end. The third quoted text should just give the full name at the beginning of the second text. — MarkH₂₁^talk 02:07, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

lawsuit; plasma

Article could use a few more details about the lawsuit.[4][5] I was hoping to find out more about the current status. Could also mention the supposed plasma donation.[6] 2602:24A:DE47:BB20:50DE:F402:42A6:A17D (talk) 17:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

English vs French wikipedia

I'm documenting myself on this church as I saw a video about them on Tev Japan Youtube.

This english version explanation is quite detailed and give a lot of fatcs about Shincheonji Church. Also, it is quite neutral and not taking any side as there is the pros/anti conflict. The French version is way less neutral and gives less facts. It sounds like a anti SCJ person wrote it. I suggest this english version should be translated to the French version or some checkings must be done. A lot of facts are even wrong there. It is written that the HQ of this church is Daegu when all media and the official church website states Gwacheon for example.. I'm suggesting the French version to be revised again as it may gives false informations to people and do not give them enough facts to make their own opinion.

Thank you.

79.92.209.122 (talk) 20:00, 6 January 2022 (UTC)Elisa

Going to have to discuss that on French Wikipedia. While English Wikipedia may have been the first, we do not have any control, oversight or influence over other language projects.Slywriter (talk) 20:19, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Image of "Shincheonji Headquarters" appears to be a photo of a department store

The image labeled "Shincheonji Headquarters" in this article (and its corresponding articles in other languages) appears to be a photograph of a multi-story department store in Gwacheon, called "Emart Gwacheon". Its address is 11 Byeoryangsangga 3-ro, Gwacheon-si, Gyeonggi-do, South Korea.

If the headquarters of the group is merely located within the building, it can't be accurate for the article simply to present the building as the "headquarters" of the religious organization. The building obviously counts among its tenants a number of retail businesses, including a location for a global chain of restaurants, McDonald's, and is primarily a shopping center, if it even contains anything related to Shincheonji at all.

First, the same image file is labeled elsewhere on Wikicommons as "NC백화점 과천점", meaning "NCDepartment Store Gwacheon": https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:20150301NC%EB%B0%B1%ED%99%94%EC%A0%90_%EA%B3%BC%EC%B2%9C%EC%A0%901.jpg

Second, the building in the image is clearly this building (Google Earth link): https://earth.google.com/web/search/Emart+Gwacheon,+11+Byeoryangsangga+3-ro,+Gwacheon-si,+Gyeonggi-do,+South+Korea/, labeled as "Emart Gwacheon" both on Google Earth and on Google Maps, with multiple retail businesses located within it. Note the church at the bottom left of the photo in the article, with its green roof, steeple and cross. It appears clearly on Google Earth across the street from the Emart Gwacheon building, in the same relative location as the church in the article's image.

Third, the building in the article's image obviously contains a McDonald's restaurant, as you can see a McDonald's location sign on the building in the upper right of the image in the article. So, at the very least, Shincheonji can't be the only tenant, if they're a tenant at all.

Is, instead, the church mentioned above actually the headquarters described in the caption...? It's possible (thought I can't confirm it), but that church building's not even fully contained within the photograph in the article, much less the focus of the image, meaning it's not a representative image. The photo and caption clearly have as their focus the tall building in the center, which, again, is clearly a building that houses retail shops and a McDonald's restaurant.

The only reason I'm hesitant to make an edit here myself is that (1) this is just my original research (though it's easily confirmed by anyone else through the Google Earth link above) and (2) if that building that's half-in, half-out of the photo really is "Shincheonji Headquarters", then this isn't a representative image of it and the caption is still wrong, but it might well be the closest thing to a representative image available to Wikipedia.

I'll leave this up to other editors to discuss, but it seems to me—especially given the public controversy around this group and the related fact that the country's government entered its offices in the recent past, as covered by national and global media—that an image of a department store probably shouldn't be represented as "Shincheonji Headquarters" here. Danmakusaur (talk) 04:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Lack of SCJ Primary Sources - Article Consists of Outsider Opinions That Are Often Negatively Biased and Negatively Worded

Just really worth considering for fairness and accuracy

If you want to include "public opinion", it should be its own section and not be the founding sources for trying to explain about Shincheonji. Especially regarding doctrinal portion, when the comment that "The group is apocalyptic and messianic in character, and has been described as a doomsday cult." is NOT Shincheonji's own doctrine, but a misunderstanding of Shincheonji's beliefs.

Even regarding Shincheonji doctrine, there are much better resources to reference, rather than articles specifically about accusing SCJ as a cult or for spreading COVID-19. Finding or linking to primary references to give the best indication of the doctrine would include Shincheonji's own public websites or YouTube channels, which include their lessons and beliefs. It's best to avoid contradictory or negatively biased articles for this part. Even referencing ex-members will give misunderstanding of the actual beliefs. I'd even say that White Page 1 referenced below gave a MUCH better description of SCJ's doctrinal beliefs than the current Wikipedia artical

White Pages 1, 2, and 3 can help clear up much misunderstanding, regarding SCJ's history, involvement and interaction with the government during COVID-19 and embezzlement charges. They contain similar information, and I listed two here but the other one should be free to access as well - I just struggled to find it currently. It acknowledges where the actual shortcomings took place, but it also gives an accurate description of SCJ's efforts to cooperate with the government and which voices were pushing for termination of SCJ. [7]https://freedomofbelief.net/sites/default/files/documents/A%20White%20Paper%20on%20Shicheonji%20and%20COVID-19_Eng.pdf[8]https://hrwf.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Shincheonji-A-Third-White-Paper.pdf

I also would hope that the term "cult" and "pseudoreligion" could be recognized as emotionally charged and discriminatory and potentially removed for a more objective stance (I'd hope this same fairness could be applied to other groups, but my main concern is this article). Simply because Shincheonji differs from "mainstream" Protestantism, which in itself is comprised a vast array of denominations with varying differences as well, does not negate it from being a religious belief. As of current, many Protestant churches have signed Memorandums of Understanding internationally with Shincheonji and they read the same Holy Bible. The white papers also address this issue of language and reference the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, General Comment 22 on Pt 2 Article 18, which protects the terms "belief" and "religion" to be broadly defined, meaning Shincheonji should be considered a religion or belief, not a "cult" or "pseudoreligion" , and I'd even consider that articles using these terms should be scrutinized [9]https://www.equalrightstrust.org/ertdocumentbank/general%20comment%2022.pdf [10]https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/international-covenant-civil-and-political-rights

And the legal battles are a bit outdated as they were ongoing even last year.

Other Shincheonji things worth including :

3rd 100,000+ theology student graduation took place November 2023 (first one in 2018 and second one in 2022) [11]https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-heaven-new-earth-church-of-jesus-prepares-for-its-third-graduation-of-100-000-theology-students-301981497.html

Blood Drive Record [12]https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/714849-most-people-to-sign-up-as-blood-donors-online-in-24-hours Si-sapis-sis-apis (talk) 20:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Primary sources are supposed to be avoided on Wikipedia if at all possible. You may have misapprehended the purpose of this site. Danmakusaur (talk) 07:21, 26 December 2023 (UTC)