Talk:Rina Sawayama

Notice the causal racism?

Her given name is Rina Sawayama but it's written as リナ サワヤマ. This is katakana, it is the default script that the Japanese use for all things they perceive to be "gaijin". But she is ethnically Japanese and was born in Japan, yet grew up in the UK. It begs the question, why is her name not written in Kanji? The obvious inference is that she is no longer considered to be Japanese and that she is now an outsider. 81.141.32.130 (talk) 10:50, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

The way it has been provided here is how Rina Sawayama herself referred to her name in the 'Official Karaoke Video' of her song "Alterlife". Please look it up on YouTube to clear your doubts. McCoyJames (talk) 15:56, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

This hardly seems relevant. Like Kazuo Ishiguro, she is not regarded in Japan as a "Japanese artist" and so her name is treated as a foreign name, but this is English Wikipedia. If we can find a reliable source for her original Japanese birth name (kanji surname, probably kanji but maybe kana given name?), that can be included in the article body, but referring to "リナ サワヤマ" or "リナ・サワヤマ" as her "native name" and putting it in the lead sentence as though it were as useful to our readers as the Japanese name of Fujiwara no Michinaga is unhelpful and misleading. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:21, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

...and then I remembered who this was! Given the context, it seems highly inappropriate to be including "foreign text" in this article's lead sentence, given that most British people can't tell the difference between katakana and kanji. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:24, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

References

^

This is so ironic and hypocritical. You complain about her name being written in Kanja, which is "not proper" to you, but then you screw up her name, and Japanese naming-conventions in general. Her "given name" is Sawayama Rina. Family-names come first. So I think you don't really have a right to complain here. What a face-palm-moment for you...

Niigata - so which is it?

The use of the placename Niigata is is a very sweeping statement because it can refer to the prefectural city or the prefecture of Niigata. Where was she really born? 81.141.32.130 (talk) 10:50, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

We don't know. Given how nebulous a lot of Japanese municipalities are and how often people move between them, not to mention the Heisei no Daigappei that took place after her family had already left Japan, it seems likely that she and her family, while they may "know" which municipality they lived in at the time of her birth, probably are not "conscious" of it, and so if a source says she was born in "Niigata", we cannot assume they mean the city or the former Niigata Village that by the time of her birth was part of Mitsuke City. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:42, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Context

Reliable sources have described Sawayama as both Japanese and British when talking about the country of which she is a citizen, national, or permanent resident, therefore, we must state both descriptions in the first sentence with equal weight.

• BBC News: British-Japanese pop star Rina Sawayama says she was "heartbroken" . . .
• CNN: British-Japanese singer Rina Sawayama has criticized two major British music awards . . .
• The Daily Beast: With all due respect to Dua Lipa, . . . the dance-inducing album that’s stayed with me the most came from Rina Sawayama, a Japanese-British model turned musical artist . . .
• The Guardian: The British-Japanese pop star Rina Sawayama has expressed her frustration . . .
• The Independent: Earlier this week, the British-Japanese singer revealed . . .
• NPR: And finally today, who would think about setting themes like her . . . Japanese British identity . . . ?
• Rolling Stone: Japanese-British singer/model Sawayama made a splash last year . . .
• Vogue: Equally as good? The Japanese-British singer’s style.

KyleJoan^talk 22:33, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Other reliable sources include:

• Idolator: The next step in the Japanese/British pop star's inevitable march towards superstar is a crossover hit.
• The New York Times: The Japanese-British singer Rina Sawayama's album, “Sawayama,” is on the list for what our critic describes as “ecstatic, knowing” pop.
• The New Yorker: As pop music becomes more experimental, the fringe-pop of the Japanese-British artist Rina Sawayama dares to be so encompassing that it verges on kitsch.
• PinkNews: The British-Japanese singer released her debut album, Sawayama, in April.
• Vulture: Rina Sawayama is a Japanese-British pop star with an eye on the future . . .
• The Wall Street Journal: The best hyperpop-influenced album of 2020 may have been “Sawayama” by Japanese-British singer Rina Sawayama.

KyleJoan^talk 02:50, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

More reliable sources include:

• The Daily Telegraph: Rina Sawayama may have had to delay her tour for 18 months due to Covid, but the wait has only served to raise expectations about the 31-year-old Japanese-British singer-songwriter to fever pitch.
• Deadline Hollywood: In what will be her feature film acting debut, Japanese-British pop superstar Rina Sawayama is set to star alongside Keanu Reeves in Lionsgate’s John Wick: Chapter 4.
• South China Morning Post: Japanese-British pop artist Rina Sawayama is making her presence felt.
• Time: They’re the Japanese British singer-songwriter’s deeply personal tracks that record labels are wont to reject.
• Variety: The Japanese-British pop star dropped “Sawayama” on April 17, 2020.
• TheWrap: “John Wick 4” has cast Japanese and British pop star Rina Sawayama in an unnamed role opposite Keanu Reeves.

KyleJoan^talk 09:17, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@KyleJoan: - In regards to your edit here[1], WP:BIOLEAD states the following: "The first sentence should usually state: [...] Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable." You mentioned the debacle on lead sentences saying "English" or "Scottish", but WP guidelines state that: "There is no preference between describing a person as British rather than as English, Scottish, or Welsh". Other guidelines like WP:ETHNICITY state: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable". Sources states that Sawayama does not hold British citizenship, and she resides in the country on a permanent residency visa.[2]

You mention MOS:ROLEBIO, in an edit here[3], but that guideline seems to pertain to a subjects occupations, not nationality or ethnicity. "The noteworthy position(s) or role(s) the person held should usually be stated in the opening paragraph ... However, avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various and sundry roles ... Wherever possible, avoid defining a notable person, particularly in the title or first sentence, in terms of their relationships".

The media has a tendency to describe notable people as being of multiple nationalities or ethnicities, whether or not the subject in question actually possesses dual citizenship (i.e describing someone as being "Irish-American" or "American-Irish"). The media and her lede sentence saying that she's "Japanese-British" may imply her ethnicity (a British citizen of Japanese origin, in the same vein of labels like Japanese-American or Japanese-Canadian). It may also imply that she is a dual citizen, but as noted in the Vice interview, she is not a dual citizen, and that Japan does not recognize dual nationality. Which is the only reason why she hasn't gotten a British passport.

I'm against calling her "Japanese-British" following guidelines like WP:BIOLEAD and WP:ETHNICITY. Per sources, Sawayama was born in Japan and moved to the United Kingdom when she was a child. She was raised and educated mainly in the United Kingdom[4] and began her career in the U.K, not Japan. As an entertainer, her career has been primarily in the United Kingdom and or outside of Japan. Her notability as a singer and son on, as well as the country that she first gained notability in is the United Kingdom, not Japan. She also is based in the United Kingdom (London specifically), again, not Japan.[5]

Given the details of her life (including her citizenship situation), "Japanese-born singer based in the United Kingdom" would make more sense. Her life and notability have been far more "British" than "Japanese", though she is not a British citizen and resides in the UK on a permanent residency visa. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 10:40, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

As you said yourself, Sawayama is a Japanese citizen and British permanent resident, therefore, "Japanese-British" meets both BIOLEAD and ETHNICITY. Your point about implications confuses me because "Japanese-born ... based in the United Kingdom" breeds more ambiguity, as that description implies that she could be a British citizen, a Japanese citizen, or a dual citizen of Japan and the UK.

There are many first sentences from which incorrect inferences about subjects' citizenships could be drawn, as there is no requirement (or understanding among users) that a lead sentence denotes (or even connotes) that material. Angelina Jolie's does not mention her Cambodian citizenship; Julianne Moore's does not mention her UK citizenship; Christian Bale's describes him (a Welsh-born dual citizen of the UK and the US) as English. Why single out Sawayama?

No guideline specifies that we should assign one's citizenship more weight than their national ties via residency, which is why ROLEBIO is important to observe regardless of how we interpret it. I'd love to hear the basis of the theory that sources tend to describe subjects as being of multiple nationalities because I don't find this to be prevalent. Even if that is true, it seems improper to prioritize our knowledge as users over what sources do. KyleJoan^talk 15:21, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@KyleJoan - I know this is a year late, but Jolie, Moore and Bale are actually dual citizens of multiple countries, not Sawayama. Their situations are not the same. But since we're bringing them up, I'm sure no one is adding "Cambodian" to Jolie's page because of WP:ETHNICITY. The consensus on Moore's page seems to point to WP:ETHNICITY in regards to the relevance of her British citizenship. Similarly, Canadian actress Nina Dobrev, who was born in Bulgaria and a dual Bulgarian/Canadian citizen, has had lengthy discussions which ultimately cite similar guidelines as to why she is just "Canadian".

"Japanese-British" would go against WP:ETHNICITY, which notes that hyphenated terms often denote ethnicity (or origin). And the term being linked as it currently would go against WP:OVERLINK.

She is still not a dual citizen of Japan and the U.K, and she was raised primarily in, resides in and began her career in the U.K, not Japan, and her discography is largely in English, but is still a Japanese citizen who was born there, wouldn't "Japanese [occupations] based in the United Kingdom" better fit her situation? It removes the ambiguity of "Japanese-born" and such wording has been used for BLPs who are from one country but now call another their main base of operations (and do not have dual citizenship). See Julian Sands or Claudia Schiffer.

"I'd love to hear the basis of the theory that sources tend to describe subjects as being of multiple nationalities because I don't find this to be prevalent."

Not prevalent? You've seriously never heard people describe themselves as being a combination of nationalities/ethnicities? This may lead to some ambiguity on whether this means they have multiple citizenship or they're referencing ethnicity.

Selena Gomez calls herself an "American-Mexican"[6]

Camila Mendes is described as being "Brazilian American".[7]

Bridget Moynahan is described as "Irish-American" in an interview.[8]

Frank Sinatra has been cited as a symbol of 20th century "Italian-American" culture[9]

Former U.S president Barack Obama personally describes himself as being "Kenyan-American".[10]

Lucy Liu personally describes herself as being "American-born Chinese", a common term denoting people of Chinese origin born in the U.S.[11]

Mindy Kaling is described as an "Indian American" in a profile for an organization for Indian-related causes.[12]

I can keep going on if you want. Sawayama, a sole Japanese citizen who has spent much of her life in the U.K, is not an anomaly in this sort of identification (either by themselves or sources about them). Clear Looking Glass (talk) 12:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Reading your comment without any other contextual information one would assume that Sawayama's parents are both British and her Japanese citizenship is incidental. She's a Japanese national, born in Japan to Japanese parents. Describing her as a Japanese-British seems fair as it corresponds to Wikipedia rules (i.e. permanent residency), and referring to her as solely Japanese would obviously be lying to the reader.

The argument about "context for activities that made the person notable" is entirely misinterpreted and contradicts MOS:ETHNICITY in this context; she's not a sportsperson representing the United Kingdom in international competitions or a politician, she's a pop singer who happens to be a Japanese citizen raised in the UK. Not to mention that a quick Google search just informed me that she attended a Japanese school in London until the age of 10. Coconutyou3 (talk) 16:34, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

And she describes herself as Japanese-British, as this Rolling Stone profile shows, which means that term also meets MOS:IDENTITY. KyleJoan^talk 09:15, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@Coconutyou3 - If referring to her as solely Japanese "would obviously be lying to the reader", than saying "Japanese-British" would also be the same thing. She is not a dual citizen and was not born in the U.K either.

If we look at the details of her life and citizenship, then wouldn't Japanese [occupations] based in the United Kingdom" fit better for her situation?

@KyleJoan - Why single out Rina's identity when former President Obama personally describes himself as "Kenyan-American", but he is not a dual citizen.[13] American actress Camila Mendes is described as a "Brazilian American"[14] and was born to Brazilian parents in the U.S and even spent a year of her childhood in the country.

Neither of their pages call them "Kenyan-American (Obama) or "Brazilian-American" (Mendes). Clear Looking Glass (talk) 12:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

@Clear Looking Glass: I'm not interested in regurgitating the same points, so I'll address the new ones. Japanese in the United Kingdom does not fail OVERLINK because the text ("Japanese-British") and link connote a combination of common countries and nationalities, not the countries and nationalities separately. ETHNICITY uses hyphenated terms as examples of ethnicities. It does not state that hyphens are only appropriate for writing ethnicities and not national ties. To me, "Japanese [occupations] based in the United Kingdom" sounds like a convoluted, unnecessary creation due to dissatisfaction with the term sources widely use (and Sawayama's self-identification). The first sentence has been stable since this discussion was last active, so please ask other users or open an RfC to override the status quo. It seems like your true issue is with the MoS not specifying that first sentences should prioritize subjects' citizenships, so perhaps it would be more beneficial to raise that concern on that talk page. KyleJoan^talk 13:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Sawayama has continuously described herself as both Japanese and British as far as I am aware, and according to the MOS, permanent residence is enough to indicate "nationality". Coconutyou3 (talk) 06:58, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Sources

RfC

Should the first sentence describe Sawayama as "Japanese-British" or "Japanese [occupations] based in the United Kingdom"? KyleJoan^talk 14:01, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

• British-Japanese - In looking at these nationality qusetions, my first question is usually; how does this person describe themselves? Second is; how do RS's describe them? And third is; in which country or in the service of which country did their notability arise? In this case, the answer to the third question seems pretty obvious. This individual seems to have have achieved all their notability in the UK and thus is primarily British. NickCT (talk) 16:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
• Japanese and British - Per MOS:NATIONALITY. Seems she has strong ties to Japan. The use of 'and' again prevents the introduction of ethnicity or birth. Nemov (talk) 17:13, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

  If it's worth a comment, her ties to Japan are largely birth and (her only) citizenship. She's been in the U.K since she was a child and is based there. At least per examples noted by MOS:NATIONALITY, her situation is somewhat different from people like Peter Lorre or Arnold Schwarzenegger. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 22:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, I'm aware and I still consider Japanese and British the correct use for this article. Nemov (talk) 22:46, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

• Japanese based in the United Kingdom - She holds only Japanese citizenship but lives and works in the U.K. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 22:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
• Japanese and British, per Nemov. As noted above (Talk:Rina Sawayama#Context) many sources denote her as Japanese-British (or British-Japanese, thanks Guardian), but per Nemov’s comment, we should prefer the less implicative phrasing. As another note, I think the short description can safely leave her ethnicity/nationality unmentioned to prevent argument there too. — HTGS (talk) 01:05, 29 January 2023 (UTC) (Summoned by bot)
• Japanese based in the United Kingdom - Per MOS:NATIONALITY. Even though commonly described as British-Japanese, lived in U.K. since age 5 and said considers herself British, she was born in Japan and remains a citizen there only. Has permanent residency status in the United Kingdom but does not hold a British passport and the technical fact of nationality has affected candidacy for awards, see CNN. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 12:28, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

• Japanese, she's literally not British. Look at the 4th paragraph in section "2017–2020: Debut EP and Sawayama": "In late July 2020, Sawayama made a public tweet about her ineligibility to be nominated for major British music awards, such as the Mercury Prize and BRIT Awards, due to the fact that she does not hold British citizenship." It would be misleading to imply that she has, or has ever had British citizenship when that's literally a part of her claim to fame. Ortizesp (talk) 21:11, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
• Japanese singer based/raised in the United Kingdom - (Summoned by bot) both citizenship and long-term residence seem relevant here and this is the most concise way to record that. Japanese and British would imply dual-citizenship while Japanese-British would imply the same, or British citizen of Japanese heritage, either of which would be wholly wrong. Pincrete (talk) 10:56, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
• Any description that contains both Japanese and British per my comments above. KyleJoan^talk 11:50, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

• British. Per MOS:Nationality, “The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident… where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable.” She resides in the UK, is an active singer in the UK, and became notable in the UK. Dobblesteintalk 22:18, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

• Japanese and British or British only, per Nemov and Dobblestein, respectively. Having ILR does qualify the use of British in the first sentence, per MOS:NATIONALITY. The [nationality] connected to the place where they currently reside and have citizen or resident status (modern-day cases). Cinccino 💬 ^he_they 14:30, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

• Japanese and British, she was clearly both a Japanese national and a British permanent residency holder at the time when she became notable so this seems like the only option that actually follows MOS:ETHNICITY. Coconutyou3 (talk) 07:03, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

• Japanese and British for reasons mentioned above. Scapulus^takk 22:17, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

• Japanese based in the United Kingdom. She literally does not have British citizenship, are we just ignoring MOS:CITIZEN now? John Yunshire (talk) 20:53, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Post RfC

@KyleJoan:I don't think this requires a formal close, but it seems like there's a rough consensus for Japanese and British or the status quo. "Japanese and British" seems to fit MOS:NATIONALITY better though. Nemov (talk) 20:24, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

@Nemov: I agree. I'll implement "Japanese and British" in the article now. Thank you! KyleJoan^talk 10:50, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

If you're going to enforce your RfC, please do not do it selectively. Jr2468's edit should have been reverted for the same reasons other users/IPs had theirs reverted. John Yunshire (talk) 21:02, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand your comment. What's the problem? Nemov (talk) 21:10, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

There's a significant difference between Japanese and British and British-Japanese. The latter gives out a more explicit implication that she has dual citizenship, which is very much not the case. From what I've read in this RfC, there seems to be a understanding that Japanese and British will be the least contentious option. I don't agree with the inclusion of British, but I'm adhering to the RfC as we can't satisfy everyone. As we can see in the revision history, this seems to be a highly contentious topic that has led to edit warring and page protections. If we're going to stick to this RfC, any changes without consulting the talk page first should be reverted, no? However, Jr2468's change was left up for more than a week. There shouldn't be any inconsistencies. John Yunshire (talk) 21:24, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't see the problem. It's been restored. Watch the article if you want to help out. Nemov (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Not a problem, I'm just pointing it out. Hopefully your hidden note will discourage others from doing the same in the future. John Yunshire (talk) 21:27, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• I’m unfamiliar with British immigration and customs, but I think it is incorrect to describe her as being British. Since she holds a visa rather than citizenship, it seems inaccurate to call her “British”. We should find an alternate way to describe her being a Japanese national of extended British residence. SecretName101 (talk) 17:55, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
• Japan doesn't allow dual-citizenship after the age of twenty. You're either Japanese or you're not. There's no such thing as Japanese and English, both because putting ethnicity in lead is discouraged and it's literally impossible for anyone over 20 to be a dual-citizen in Japan. Nswix (talk) 17:56, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  The whole conversation above regarding this issue is nonsensical.

  I’m British and have lived in Japan for 15 years with permanent residency status. I can look at that fact and say I am Japanese and British, but it simply doesn’t make it true. I’m a British resident of Japan. 114.144.38.41 (talk) 04:58, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Surname hatnote

@Clear Looking Glass: I'm not entirely convinced (but I don't want to pick a fight either) - Without the hatnote, readers who know neither the Japanese language nor Rina Sawayama herself are unlikely to be able to tell which part is the surname. In biographies of people of Japanese origin who are well known in both Japanese and English, the lead would give their names first in English word order and then in Japanese word order in brackets, but readers of this article don't have that information because Sawayama's works are predominantly in the English language. Deryck C. 09:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I've restored the hatnote. It's clearly not redundant. KyleJoan^talk 09:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Deryck Chan: and @KyleJoan: - I wasn't really sure why it was needed because Sawayama's name is given in Western/English naming order and her notability is primarily in the English-speaking world. Given how this is English-language Wikipedia, I thought that most people viewing the page would surmise that "Sawayama" is her surname and not "Rina". That said, if I may make a suggestion, would it be better to use the "Eastern Name order" hatnote instead, like on Ming-Na Wen or Barbara Palvin's articles? The two aforementioned individuals also come from countries where "Eastern Name Order" is used. As the page stands, her name uses Western name order, "Rina Sawayama". But the hatnote maybe confusing to some readers unaware of Japanese name order. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 07:36, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Not 'Japanese-British'

She is Japanese, not British. Because Japanese government doesn’t allow dual nationality. 'Japanese-British singer-songwriter' is misleading.--Kanure (talk) 09:03, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

See the "context" section above. KyleJoan^talk 09:15, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 June 2023

Rina Sawarayama is is not British by any common or official definition.

https://www.gov.uk/types-of-british-nationality

Change “is a Japanese and British singer, actress and model.” to “ is a Japanese singer, actress and model.” 180.6.17.5 (talk) 23:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. There is considerable discussion about this above. RudolfRed (talk) 00:35, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Rina Sawayama is not British

The discussion around her Britishness has been based around her eligibility for certain music awards.

She is a Japanese national who has lived in the UK for many years. Holding indefinite leave to remain does not make a person British in any official or legal sense.

If this is a precedent then numerous other Japanese nationals who hold indefinite leave to remain or the equivalent in other countries should have their biographies changed in accordance.

Yoko Ono, for example, should be “Japanese and American”, despite not being a US citizen. 180.6.17.5 (talk) 08:00, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

DOB primary tag

I removed the date of birth primary sources tag because it's normal to get someone's birthday from them and not an unrelated, third-party source. We don't require a government record, either. If anyone wants to remove YouTube that's fine; other primary sources apparently remain. But the template belongs only for facts that we should expect to be supported by third parties. If nobody really disputes her stated date of birth, let's not tag it. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 03:34, 3 May 2024 (UTC)