Talk:November 2006 in sports

policies

I was wondering whether there are any policies on what information can and what information can't be added on this current sports event page. Some events are accepted, while others will be removed and in other sports full division results will be added each and every day. I don't think we should mention any single result in any single sport, but I do think we should name the headlines of happenings on any sport, not just North American sports or sports that are very popular among most people. I was talking to User:NoseNuggets on his talk page about this as he recently deleted some information that I added on here. The main thing he was saying is that the results he deleted were not considered to be a World Championship or a major event like a Formula one race. What does make a result of a cyclo-cross World Cup race not notible enough to be mentioned on here? Not a major event considered to what? Then why are NASCAR events being considered notible enough. What about the figure skating grand prix in Canada that I added? That one isn't deleted, but in my opinion that event is less notible compared to the cyclo-cross World Cup. Why are results about each and every game in American football added each and every day? The NFL is notible, ok that is true, but do we need all the results inclusive some notes coming with the scores? If that is the case, why don't we add the results from the FA Premier League or the Serie A each and every week as well? They're at least as and worldwide probably even more notible than the NFL is. I don't think that we need all those results though, I was just making clear that it is unclear on what is allowed and what is not allowed to add on this page.

NoseNuggets also said to me that he made the suggestion that the Current Events: Sports page might be devided into North American and International pages as of January 2007. That might be a good thing, but we might also think of any policies on what kind of sports event in whatever sport is notible and what is not. SportsAddicted | discuss 09:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• My basis on this theory is this: American football, F1 and NASCAR is usually a once a week event when in season, while the other three major sports on the North American scene (baseball, basketball, hockey) are played almost every day (with the exception of playoffs in those sports, especially the NCAA Men's and Women's Division I Basketball tourneys, and All-Star Games). In 2006, during the first two rounds of the NBA and NHL post-season, we only reported games where teams were eliminated. When the second round was concluded, the scores of conference finals and championship series were inserted, as was the entire 2005 NFL and 2006 Major League Baseball postseasons. As far as the other events (IRL, for instance), only when titles were won or a major event like the Indianapolis 500 were reported. In some cases, when the page is split into two, events like World Cup Soccer and the Olympics will be on both pages, but tailored to those regions (Swimming and diving, gymnastics, basketball, track and field [or "athletics"] in North America for the 2008 Games in Beijing, as they will take the bulk of the coverage on both NBC and CBC) while the international pages would cover other sports (team handball, yachting, field hockey, et al). We'll try to expand on that if we decide to split the CE:Sports page in 2007. NoseNuggets 12:02 AM Nov 7 2006.

IMHO, with way its going, every NFL and NCAA Top 25 game will be posted here. This has to stop. Only include games at the end of the regular season where playoff matchups/berths/BCS bowl games are critical. I'm fine with including each and every playoff game, but regular season games are overkill. --Howard the Duck 09:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, we also have every single UEFA Champions League and UEFA Cup game, including those between teams from places like Estonia and the Faroe Islands. So how do we decide what games to keep? -- Mwalcoff 03:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer not to report regular season/group stage games unless it's a derby/rivalry match or at the tail end of the regular season/group stage that'll determine who'll advance to the next round. --Howard the Duck 06:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

When it comes to reports from seasons in several sports I agree with Howard here. I don't think it's necessary to name them all, but it is as soon as the competitions are getting near the end. However, I still don't see anyone commenting on what I stated above on why for instance results of the 2006/07 UCI Cyclo-cross World Cup should not be included in the current events sports news? What makes this not notible enough? SportsAddicted | discuss 08:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

How about also limiting the races into the last few races (including the UCI Cyclo-cross World Cup, F1, NASCAR, IRL, Tour de France)? --Howard the Duck 09:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So what you're basically saying is that we don't report any events unless there is something special about it to say, or when the season/tournament is almost to an end, or when it's the final decision (clinching, or medals awarded) in any event? I think I can live with that, although it might become pretty empty here. On the other hand that might only be a good thing, so the important achievements stand out. SportsAddicted | discuss 10:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

In addition, does that mean you share my opinion that the removed content below can/should be reverted back into the page?

• Handball: 2006 Women's Holland Handball Tournament, Rotterdam:
  • Brazil clinches the title with still one more game to be played thanks to their fourth win in four games. The other participating nations are unable to equal or pass Brazil., SportsAddicted | discuss 10:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think it should be returned there. Note that this shouldn't be an all or nothing policy. For example, if the Knicks muster a 20-game winning streak, it should be noted here (lol), likewise, some of the major derby/rivalry matches. Also, monthly (or even weekly) updates (like "the Anaheim Ducks are leading the NHL Pacific", or "West Ham still at the bottom at the Premiership" can be done too.

And why are there no boxing news on this page? And should wrestling be here too? --Howard the Duck 12:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrestling no, it's never recognised as a sport by media outlets. Boxing should be okay, though with the sheer amount of World Championship bouts, you'd think there would have to be some limit (heavyweight bouts, all three major belts, that kind of thing).

As for the Women's Handball Tournament - it was a friendly warm-up tournament. That same week, there was an "Ile de France" tournament in France between Norway, Denmark, France and Germany, and a "Puchar Slaska" tournament in Poland between Poland, Italy, Spain and Ukraine, etc. It's the sort of thing organised by federations to get warm-up before a major championship - quickly played, quickly forgotten. The European and World Championships and CL finals might be listed here, anything else is pretty much out. (Maybe Asian Games final.) Sam Vimes | Address me 12:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Now we are getting somewhere. I didn't even know about the other handball tournaments in the same week. I won't place it back as it's considered a warm-up tournament. As of boxing, World Championship bouts should indeed be included. As far as I can remember I have added a few in October, but we don't get many boxing information here, so that should be done by someone else I guess. I think the only wrestling events that are worth posting are the Olympic results and the World Championships that are equal to the Olympic wrestling sports. SportsAddicted | discuss 13:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the page has gotten unwieldy. I think it's more or less fine how it is, at least as far as "North American" sports are concerned. -- Mwalcoff 03:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Organizing each day

Proposal: We use the name of the sport as the heading, each individual event as the subheading, and then follow with news/results. Alphabatize by sport.

For example:

• Baseball
  • Major League Baseball - ????? named rookie of the year.
  • 2006 Intercontinental Cup
    • - followed by game results.
• Billiards
  • <<name of event>>
    • results
• Football (American
  • National Football League
    • results/schedule/news

any comments ? As the Taiwanese say, this is getting luan chi ba tsao (very messy) without a standard format Ludahai 01:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

If there's only one game, like in billards, we can let go out the third-level bullet. --Howard the Duck 03:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Howard here. SportsAddicted | discuss 08:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I was only suggesting this as a general guideline. Most of us have enough sense when to use and not to use the third bullet - at least I hope so... :) Ludahai 09:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

International baseball scores

How big of a deal are these international baseball tournaments, really? The only international baseball tournaments of significance that I've heard of are the Caribbean World Series and the World Baseball Classic. -- Mwalcoff 04:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

So until last year only the Caribbean World Series should be added here? How about the Japan Series? --Howard the Duck 08:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The 2006 Intercontinental Cup is definately notible enough to be mentioned on here, but probably just the more important (medal matches) after the group stage. As for the Konami Cup I think only the final is really necessary instead of all these group matches. SportsAddicted | discuss 08:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

In addition, the fact that you didn't hear of it, doesn't mean it's not notible. SportsAddicted | discuss 08:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Lets remove the group stages scores and focus on the playoffs. --Howard the Duck 08:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

These games are pretty important in the nations that are participating, and are FAR MORE notable than weekly U.S. college football and NFL score reports. Ludahai 09:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

FYI, in our country, nobody cares how bad our baseball team loses (which always loses by the mercy rule) in this tournament. I'm in favor of removing the regular season NCAA and NFL scores (but very few people point out that the group stages of the UEFA Cup and the UEFA Champions league are posted, heck even the qualifying rounds), too, but really, the round robin stages shouldn't be here. Only the playoffs will do. Even the world championships of pool billiards had to wait until the quarterfinals, the third round of the playoffs. --Howard the Duck 09:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I have a different take, as UEFA competitions are international in nature and not purely domestic, I feel they should have more latitude than merely domestic competitions. The same goes for team events that occur no more than once a year - or even once every several years. The Konami Cup is annual and includes national champions from three countries and the Intercontinental Cup happens once every four years. It is not like these events happen every week. The Asian Games upcoming, likewise, only happen once every four years. Ludahai 10:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

UEFA comepetitions, despite being "international" can be equated with the North American leagues, despite being competed on two countries. The "importance" of a sporting event is more than the number of comepeting countries - there's population, economics, revenue, etc. So if we'll use your analogy, the Adriatic League is bigger than the NFL since the Adriatic League is composed of 5 countries, while the NFL only has one. Teams from UEFA and North American leagues do not represent one country - they represent a city, sometimes even a district of that city. As for non-annual competitions, I'd still prefer the knockout/playoff stages when the games do count, although a summary of what had happened on the group stages maywbe added (check out my contrib on July 2006 in sports#28 July 2006. --Howard the Duck 10:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't making a strong case for UEFA competitions, more for the baseball ones. With the exceptions of the games the Philippines has been in, there hasn't been an unimportant game in the Intercontinental Cup, and the same goes for Konami Cup games that China wasn't in. I still see no problem with including such scores, especially with the last three days of round robin action coming up and every game is important because so many teams are 2-2 or 1-3. Ludahai 11:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course every game does count, but the most important - and critical - games are those of the knockout stages. A team may win all of the round robin games but it will be worthless if they lose on the first knock-out round. Again, I'd rather prefer a summary of what has transpired after the round robin phase rather than list each and every game, like the current system that is used. Even MLB had to wait on the last few weeks before results - among playoff contenders - were added here, same with FA Cup, where the results weren't reported until like January last year (of course those tournaments are much longer, but each game counts there too, ask the Houston Astros). --Howard the Duck 11:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This is mainly where the policies part I started was about as well. You are right that the 2006 Intercontinental Cup is important in at least some of the countries that participate, my country is one of them. I personally don't mind the scores of each and every match here, but Howard does have a point that some national US leagues are said to be more notible than several international leagues might be. With the US being such a huge country where sports is pretty important each and every state can be roughly seen as a separate country, what makes those leagues slightly international as well. Anyways, they are still national domestic leagues, but I don't mind each and every score mentioned on here when it's the highest level in a country. But if you permit one country to have their scores in this news section you should allow other nations to have them here as well. That would mean the current sports section might be expanded hugely, which is not a good thing. Each event can have their own article on Wikipedia and that's mainly where such results can be listed in my opinion, so we can have these current sports pages for the decisive and most important moments in the events. As for college sports, decisive and important happenings can be mentioned here as well, but as they are not the highest level of sports in the USA I don't think the results of each and every game should be here, unless they are still pretty important in the US itself. So my proposal is: Let's quit adding scores from each and every league game, but give a summary of the most important and notible happenings of those leagues instead. When an event gets to the crucial parts that decides the championships or medals then all results can be named here. In tournaments with knock-out rounds, no results should be added before the quarter finals. However notible upsets, like when Roger Federer is beaten in an early stage of a tennis tournament can be mentioned, but than leave the other results of that tournament out. SportsAddicted | discuss 12:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

To date, we have not been reporting everyday scores from baseball, basketball or ice hockey. With those sports, we've only been reporting postseason games and other events of significant note. I think (American) football is a little different because so few games are played in a season (12-14 in college, 16 in the NFL). It's very hard to differentiate the "important" games and the "unimportant ones." In the NCAA, we have been limiting ourselves to top-25 teams (out of 119 in Division I-A and hundreds more in lower divisions). But in the NFL, there's only 32 teams. Almost every game means something in terms of playoff implications. -- Mwalcoff 03:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course, in theory, every game counts, but in reality, the most critical games are at the tail-end of the regular season, when the borderline teams attempt to qualify, and the top teams vie for homefield advantages. As for NCAA football, I'd rather have the scores of the bowl games (heck, post all of them, even non-BCS), and regular season games between 2 ranked teams (like the upcoming OSU-Michigan game). If the number of the regular season games would be the basis, then I would be the posting the results of the 2006-07 PBA Philippine Cup, in which there are only 18 games. --Howard the Duck 18:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal

As seen above there are several ways of how people from different parts of the world see the notability of a sports event. Here is my proposal on how this current sports events page should be in the future.

• (1) National leagues, including American college sports: Each and every result of domestic leagues should not be added to the current events pages. A summary of important or unusual happenings during a day should be included instead. When a league also features a play-off system, results can be added as soon as the play-offs start, otherwise just mention the team clinching a championship in the summary of the day. Important matches between high ranked teams or local derbies can be included as well.
• (2) International sports tournaments with a round robin and play-offs: Tournaments that are notible enough to be listed on these current sports event pages may have all their results posted as soon as the quarter finals have started. Round robin results or last 64, 32 or 16 results should not be included. A summary of important and unusual happenings can be included instead.
• (3) International sports events with a knock-out competition: Sports events that only have a knock-out competition, like a Grand Slam tournament in tennis should not have all their results mentioned on the current events pages. A summary of important and unusual happenings can be included instead. As soon as the event reaches the quarter finals the complete results can be included.
• (4) International World Cup seasons or combined events seasons: Events like the PGA Tour, NASCAR or the 2007 Speed Skating World Cup should not have the results of each and every race included on the current events pages. A summary of what happened during a day could however be added. Another option is to include a link to the wikipedia articles about these events and mention that they took place at that day.
• (5) International one-day sports events: Notable one-day sports events that happen and which are not part of a World Cup or a combined events season can be named on the current events pages including medals ( {{goca}} ) or positions ( {{(1)}} ). Limit these results to the top 3 positions only.
• (6) International friendly sports events: International friendly confrontations are normally not notable enough to be mentioned on these pages. However, when something unusual happens which makes the friendly confrontation notible it could be included on the current events pages.
• (7) General news: General news that is notable enough in any sport can be included on these pages in a short story telling newsflash. These can for instance be retirements of sportspeople, firings of managers or awarded prizes or titles to sportspeople.

Example

including all of all types of events mentioned above. (1) to (7) at the end of the events equals the (1) to (7) in the proposal.

• American football: NFL week 10:
  • The Philadelphia Eagles' defense scores two touchdowns as Philadelphia ends a three-game losing streak by winning 27-3 to the Washington Redskins. (1)
  • For the second time this year, the Seattle Seahawks beat the St. Louis Rams on a last-minute Josh Brown field goal. (1)

• Athletics:
  • Asafa Powell who equalled the 100m world record twice in 2006 and who won all sic Golden League meetings is named IAAF athlete of the year in the men's category. Sanya Richards won te women's award for her achievements in this year. Richards broke Valerie Brisco-Hook's 1984 US national record and also won all Golden League meetings on her distance, the 400m. (7)

• Artistic gymnastics, World Championships, apparatus finals:
  • Men's vault: Marian Dragulescu, Dimitri Kaspiarovich, Fabian Hambüchen (5)
  • Women's balance beam: Iryna Krasnianska, Sandra Raduca Izbasa, Elyse Hopfner-Hibbs (5)

• Auto racing
  • 2006-07 A1 Grand Prix of Nations, Beijing, China:
    • Jeroen Bleekemolen finishes first in the sprint race, but is unable to reach the finish in the main race, which is won by Italian Enrico Toccacelo who finished third in the sprint race. (4)
  • Chase for the NEXTEL Cup: Checker Auto Parts 500 in Avondale, Arizona
    • Kevin Harvick wins and takes the checkered flag, but Jimmie Johnson can finish 12th or better next week at Miami and win the title. (4)

• Billiards: 2006 Men's World 9-Ball Championship in Pasay City, Metro Manila, Philippines
  • Quarterfinals, all matches races to 11 racks (2) + (3)
    • Ronato Alcano def. Wu Chia-ching, 11-6
    • Li He-wen def. Luong Chi Dung, 11-7
    • Ralf Souquet def. Liu Cheng-chuan, 11-8
    • Fu Che-wei def. Rodolfo Luat, 11-7
  • Semifinals, all matches races to 11 racks
    • Ronato Alcano def. Li He-wen 11-8
    • Ralf Souquet def. Fu Che-wei, 11-10

• Football (soccer):
  • General news:
    • Luxembourg surprises the world by beating Brazil 3-2 in an international friendly match in Rio de Janeiro. (6) + (7)
  • National leagues:
    • Germany: Leaders Werder Bremen lose 2-1 versus Borussia Dortmund with VfB Stuttgart taking over the lead after they won their match versus Hannover 96. (1)
    • England: Charlton Athletic surprises with a 4-0 win over Championship contenders Arsenal FC. Chelsea FC and Manchester United FC win their matches and stay on top of the league. (1)
    • Netherlands: FC Twente demolishes FC Groningen with a 7-1 victory to take over the 4th place in the rankings. The top clash between Ajax Amsterdam and PSV Eindhoven ends in 0-1, the only goal is scored by Timmy Simons. (1)

• Golf: 2007 European Tour: HSBC Champions Tournament
  • Yang Yong-eun wins his first European Tour event by finishing 14 under par and 2 strokes in front of Tiger Woods. Michael Campbell and Retief Goosen share the third spot. (4)

• Horse racing: 2006 Breeders Cup World Championship at Louisville, Kentucky
  • Invasor, an Argentine-bred now running in the USA, stuns the two favorites, Bernardini and Lava Man, to win the $5 million (US) Classic. Fernando Jara, who rode Invasor to the win, became the youngest jockey to win any Breeders' Cup race. (5)

• Winter sports:
  • Alpine skiing: 2007 Alpine Skiing World Cup meeting in Levi (4)
  • Cyclo-cross: 2006/07 UCI Cyclo-cross World Cup meeting in Pijnacker (4)
  • Snowboarding: 2007 Snowboarding World Cup meeting in Stockholm (4)
  • Speed skating: 2007 Speed Skating World Cup meeting in Heerenveen; Anni Friesinger wins her third World Cup race of the weekend. (4)

Dit I forget something? Please tell and we can discuss that as well. SportsAddicted | discuss 14:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

A few comments:

It looks long - 4.5 kB a day = 135 kB a month, about four times the recommended size for an article. And I still think there needs to be a limit on football leagues with a "weekly update", top five in Europe (by UEFA coefficient) + Brazil and Argentina maybe. There's forty-odd leagues in Europe alone, and having a weekly update for all of those = overkill.

Also, it doesn't really help with those sports which still organise themselves by a "tour" basis, where one national team goes on tour for two or three weeks and plays a number of matches either against a single team or against a few teams geographically close to each other - I think that's just cricket and the two rugby codes. I've added bunches of cricket results to these pages, but it might be an idea to limit it - possibly to just state series results, with exceptions for the most notable series (Australia v England, India v Pakistan, 1 v 2 on international rankings?). Similar with rugby, but that's usually just international dates, so that's ok - can easily cut down the current thing to something like:

• "Rugby union international Tests. Italy came within seven points of beating Australia, while England lost their seventh match in a row, their worst run since 1973."

Another thing, (1) "national leagues" should obviously be limited to "professional leagues". Sam Vimes | Address me 18:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course not every day will be this long. This is just an example to show what is possible for each type of sports event named above. In reality most days (except for saturdays and sundays) will use much less space than the example. Currently it is taking much more space with all these group stages and full NFL/College/UEFA Cup/Champions League results each and every day. As for the football leagues, I don't say all European leagues should be included, but neither should there be a limit on which leagues can be described. When Rosenborg BK wins the Tippeligaen, this should be mentioned, but we don't need Rosenborg's results on here every week. It could however be mentioned when they play SK Brann or when Viking FK surprisingly beats them. That doesn't mean there should be a round up for each and every league each and every week. Just name the headlights if there are any, don't name anything that is considered to be just a regular result. I think the options you gave about the cricket and rugby events are good, limiting them by just the series, or to create an article and collect the results together. SportsAddicted | discuss 18:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with these proposals, but how about multi-sport events that take place over a span of two weeks, like the Olympics, Commonwealth Games and the upcoming Asian games? Are we going to report only the medal rounds? --Howard the Duck 03:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think only the medals, added with a short description should be enough. Although for the Olympics itself it might be different as it's considered to be the biggest sports event there is. SportsAddicted | discuss 19:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the proposals, as they seem to have been drawn out of a hat rather than based on any consistent theme (other than that the monthly pages are getting too long). I think a "domestic" competition in one sport and country might be of interest to far more people than the world championship of another sport. I'm sure far more readers are interested in NFL scores than in the World 9-Ball championship. The round of 16 of the UEFA Champions League is more important than the quarterfinals of a team-handball tournament. I think we just need to use common sense and focus on sporting events of wide public interest. -- Mwalcoff 03:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

But do we have to report on all of the scores of the NFL regular season and of the UEFA CL group stages? This is overkill. --Howard the Duck 03:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Mwalcoff, you are right when you say American people would rather see NFL scores than 9-ball world championships for instance. I also know that a lot of non-Americans follow the NFL and are interested in it. However, I don't think it's necessary to include each and every game result. Even when each and every game is important in combination with play-off spots there is still no need to name them all. Just collect the highlights, name some scores, talk about teams moving up and down the rankings, but as things are going now it's definately overkill. Almost every sport does have a wide public interest. To continue on your example there are many countries in the world interested in the results of an important team handball tournament. Although this is the English version of Wikipedia and although there are wikipedias available in many other languages this wikipedia is not just attracting US/Canada/Great Britain readers, but readers from all over the world. A sport that isn't among the popular sports in the US, most often still has a wide public interest in the rest of the world. Every sport has some countries in which they are more important, but most of the sports are popular worldwide. SportsAddicted | discuss 08:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Good points. An issue, as I stated above, is that since the NFL season is so short, and there are only 32 teams compared to hundreds in the NCAA, it's hard to differentiate between "important" games and non-important ones. Almost every game has playoff implications, and the few that don't generally decide who gets top draft picks the next year. -- Mwalcoff 23:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, all games count. But lets report the games that really counts, like the tail end of the regular season. If we'll follow that example, all of the games of the FA Premier League have the same importance, so all of them should be posted here. The implications of the opening season game, and a virtual elimination game at the end of the regular season are different. --Howard the Duck 07:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I see your point Mwalcoff, but even in let's say the NFL Europe, which starts in April again, I don't think we should name every match. There are only 6 teams participating in that league and each and every game can be seen as important, but there are only a few in a weekend that do make the difference. SportsAddicted | discuss 08:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I strongly object to this new formatting. Leave well enough alone, because if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Besides, I had to fix the Eagles story because only one defensive touchdown was scored in the Eagles rout of the Redskins. NoseNuggets 10:37 PM US EST Nov 22 2006.

So that means we'd rather have no rules on this page, so every sport, no matter how obscure it is, would be fair game here and would have every right to be posted. If it's posted already, then no one should remove it. --Howard the Duck 09:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Dating

All, I hope we can all agree that the proper date for any item is in accordance to where the event/news item happened, and NOT according to what time it is in the United States. I don't want to get into an edit war over announcements made in Japan that occur the previous day US time. Ludahai 09:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I use the date/time it happened on the place where the game was held. --Howard the Duck 09:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes -- editors should use the local time at the site. -- Mwalcoff 23:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone please tell Nosenuggets before I bring admins into this. Ludahai 01:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, name local times instead of US times.SportsAddicted | discuss 08:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

RFC?

SportsAddicted and Howard the Duck have raised important points. We should better define what this page is for to prevent it from getting too big. I suggest putting out an RFC. With your permission (you being SportsAddicted and Howard the Duck), I'll do so. -- Mwalcoff 00:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

If no one objects, I would also like to participate. BTW, who cares about amateur football in Canada? Ludahai 02:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

With the proposed policies for this page, the addition of the CIS games were fine. --Howard the Duck 07:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, let's see where it can get us. SportsAddicted | discuss 07:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like no one wants to join us in our RFC ? SportsAddicted | discuss 08:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

My points (perhaps yours too) were already debated upon in the earlier discussions, so I don't how the RFC should now work. --Howard the Duck 09:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea either, I've never seen RFC's before actually. SportsAddicted | discuss 21:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome RFC readers

The issue is what scores should be reported on the sports current-events portal. We need to decide what competitions deserve the reporting of regular-season scores; what competitions should be mentioned less often; and what competitions need not be reported at all.

It has been the custom for at least a year to report regular-season scores only for the NFL, NCAA football Top 25, UEFA Champions League and UEFA Cup. With other sports and leagues, we've only been reporting the scores of "important" games and other noteworthy events.

Recently, more editors have been drawn to this page and have started to add some results for competitions American and British users would consider more obscure, such as Philippines basketball, Asian international baseball, billiards and volleyball. This has improved the geographical scope of the page. The additions have also lengthened the page considerably and raised the question of whether we should stop reporting some of the scores we have been reporting.

Users SportsAddicted and Howard the Duck have recommended ending the practice of reporting regular-season American-football and soccer scores. They have proposed treating those leagues the way we do the NBA or Major League Baseball -- reporting only "important" scores and news, such as playoff games. Defending the existing practice, I said it is difficult to pick out the important NFL or NCAA Top-25 football games due to the brevity of the seasons (16 games and 12-13 games, respectively). I questioned whether the regular-season NFL or UEFA CL games are less notable than world championships in other sports, such as billiards or team handball.

One of the problems here is that it is very difficult to judge which sporting events are important from a world perspective. No sport is universally popular worldwide -- not even soccer. American football, baseball, basketball, soccer, rugby and cricket have received a lot of attention here because lots of English-speaking people follow them. But what about sports popular elsewhere, such as ski jumping, team handball or, for that matter, sepak takraw? And what competitions in a given sport should we report on? We may accept NBA basketball and NCAA football, but what about Philippines basketball or Canadian university football? Those competitions are presumably quite significant to Filipinos and Canadians.

Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

Before we begin, I'd just like to pre-empt one argument that has been made before -- that we should favor international competitions over domestic ones. That may make sense for Europe but does not work for the U.S., which is about as large as all of the western European countries put together. In the big North American team sports, domestic competitions are generally considered more important than international ones. -- Mwalcoff 08:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added quite a few items here, most especially the recent playoffs (semifinals and Finals) of the two biggest college basketball leagues in the Philippines (including recaps after the first and second round robins). I've also added the results from the round of 16 up to the Final of the recently concluded 2006 Men's World Pool Championship.

Here's my stand on the matter, either we have rules for this page, or no rules at all. Either we report the games that really counts (games at the tail-end of the regular season, playoffs and championships games), or we report all of the games (all regular season/round robin games), irregardless of importance or notability. --Howard the Duck 12:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Howard. I think we should not ignore any sport because of the sport is not notible enough worldwide. Every sport is played in several countries and continents, which means worldwide. Some sports are more popular than others, for those sports separate rules can be made. There are also sports in where domestic leagues can be more important than international tournaments, for those there can also be made separate rules. If we do not yet talk about the separate rules I think we should stick to international tournaments like World Championships, World Cups, Continental Championships, or whatever national teams or clubs are participating at what is considered among the highest levels in the sport (not necessarily the highest). In these competitions and events we should in my opinion stick to the more important parts of the events, like quarter finals to final reports or awarded medals. Of course upsets, surprises and other notible happenings in earlier stages can however appear on the pages. Domestic leagues should not be ignored either, but should not have all it's results posted day in, day out. In these competitions we should also stick to the important parts of the season when it comes to full reports. Minor reports can be done during the season when historical notible happenings occur and need to be mentioned on these pages. As stated above some domestic leagues can be seen as more important than international games. Examples of these are the American leagues of NBA, MLB, NFL and NHL, which are known to have the best teams of the world playing in their leagues. Leagues like this should have the ability to have daily reports, but should not report each and every result during a season. The same can be done with leagues like the Serie A, English Premier League, La Liga, etc. which are considered to be among the highest possible domestic football (soccer) leagues around. There should however be some rules on what leagues are able to have regular reports and which don't as we don't want to have a daily report on the Luxembourg's National Division. The Luxembourg National Division can however be named in a report when their Champions are crowned, as it's notible enough to secure a place in the UEFA Champions League (prelims), which is considered the most important cup in Europe. Also when for instance a single team in that Luxembourg division gets in the news for bribing other teams or players, or any other notible happening it should not be ignored, but it should be mentioned here. I'm trying to keep these pages as complete as possible, but not everything should be mentioned here. The 2006 KNSB Dutch Single Distance Championships in speed skating for instance are notible as roughly said the top 10 of the Dutch nationals in some distances are all capable of winning a World Cup meeting. The results of these Championships had influence on whether skaters were sent to these World Cups or not. Still these are domestic events and should probably not be on these pages. I already made a proposal a few days ago, which can be read above. Feel free to read that as well.SportsAddicted | discuss 14:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I think even the champ of the Luxembourg national division won't be notable for this page, lets restrict the European soccer leagues into their European coefficients, like the top 20, perhaps?

Resolution

Since there had been no replies, I guess the proposals stated above can now be used for news items starting at December 2006? Although for (1), I'd say we should not limit that to American college sports but to other college sports in other countries as well (provided there's an updated article). --Howard the Duck 01:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't been entering any regular-season games since this discussion began, although I'll continue to correct/improve any games that have already been added if need be. I suggest we try to bring some of the other regular contributors into this discussion through messages on talk pages. -- Mwalcoff 01:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

This would be important for all of us to divide the CE:Sports pages into North American (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, NCAA Top 25 football and basketball, bowl games and Division I basketball tourneys, auto racing such as NASCAR, etc.) and international (football [soccer], athletics [track and field], billiards, Formula One racing, etc) in January 2007. This would best served to everyone if we did this. And besides, the use of regular season games in MLB, NBA and NHL and the first two rounds of the NBA and NHL playoffs would be considered overkill IMHO. Besides, bandwidth space would be freed up on both pages as their seperation makes it easier to put together a better sports page. Also, the NFL has a following in Japan and Europe as games are televised there.NoseNuggets 1:51 PM US EST Nov 22 2006. (edited 10:41 PM US EST)

IMHO, Overkill=all regular season games; not overkill=all games of the playoffs. I don't like the idea of separate sports pages. One page would be enough. Perhaps we can adopt the mechanism used at Portal:Current events; only the last five days are displayed, all other previous events are archived at Sport in <month> <year>. --Howard the Duck 05:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Nosenugget

Presonally, I am getting tired of his conduct. First, he gets into an edit war with me over the dating of an event that took place in Japan, insisting that it should be classified according to U.S. time. Then, he deletes an entry that I made, saying that the day hadn't arrived yet, despite the fact that when he deleted it, that day HAD IN FACT arrived in my part of the world. This, despite his putting in college football games on THURSDAY that were to be played on Saturday. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portal:Current_events/Sports&diff=88312042&oldid=88267456

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portal:Current_events/Sports&diff=88690872&oldid=88688096

Ludahai 05:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

He used to be worse, actually. There's been one or two requests for comment on him. Here's one:

Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/NoseNuggets

Mwalcoff 23:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, there. In the US, college football games are now pretty much played on Thursdays and Fridays; however, those games involve ranked teams much of the time or is the only game played that night. The reason is spelled out in four letters: ESPN. NoseNuggets 1:38 PM US EST Nov 22 2006.

kelvSYC's take on the matter

American college sports and weekly NFL recaps are overkill, although they generate considerable interest. What I would like to see are the following, which I have adhered to in my coverage of CFL and CIS football (which is hardly covered at all otherwise):

• Current events should primarily focus on the highest levels of play in any sport. Some of these cases are clearly defined, others are not so:
  • Baseball: MLB, Japan
  • Basketball: NBA, Euroleague
  • Ice hockey: NHL, Swedish Elite, Russian, possibly NWHL
  • Canadian football: CFL, CIS
  • American football: NFL, NCAA
  • Indoor lacrosse: NLL
  • Soccer: Premiership, etc. (international club competition is mentioned separately below)
• Regular season games are not notable, with minor exceptions. For example, the Labour Day Classic is notable because it's the same teams facing each other year after year, and is part of a rich CFL tradition (the teams you love against the teams you love to hate). That can stay in. The following week is not as notable (Banjo Bowl is still quite new, and although the matchups are the same year after year, it doesn't have the same atmosphere). This hard policy should end whoever is posting NCAA football results and NFL results week after week, as I find it annoying (not to mention I think that NFL is crap compared to CFL...)
• All-Star games in major sports should be included.
• Playoff games in the highest level of play should be included, as well as that of more notable lower levels. For example:
  • Soccer: Final 16 in the FA Cup, UEFA Champions League, promotion into English premiership, etc.
  • Ice hockey: Memorial Cup (possibly WHL, OHL, QMJHL finals), Allan Cup, University Cup, Frozen Four
  • Basketball: Final 16 in the men's and women's basketball tournament
  • Canadian football: OUA, CW, AUS, and Quebec finals, and all playoff games from then on
  • American football: the entire Bowl Championship Series
• Periodic events should have every high-level event included. For example:
  • Tennis: Final 16 in all grand slams
  • Formula One: Top 3 in every race
  • Golf: Top 5 + ties in major tournaments, top 10 + ties in grand slams
  • Olympics: The days where medals are actually won
• For multi-day events, we should have only the later days, where something is actually decided:
  • Curling: playoffs only in the Tournament of Hearts, Brier
• International sporting events should be included, although to what degree will be up to a matter of debate. I for one see it more useful in their own page (eg. 2006 Continental Cup of Curling, 2004 World Cup of Hockey), and only report the near-end of the event there.
• Pro wrestling is not a sport in the sense that it should be reported here, unless it makes some big out-of-kayfabe news (someone winning the WWE Championship is not notable, but the sudden passing of, say, Eddie Guerrero is notable)
• In the spirit of verifability, if we don't link to any outside news article, any other editor is free to delete it. NFL and NCAA football seems to be the worst offenders here.

It's a good solid foundation for us to work upon, at the very least.

kelvSYC 05:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree mostly to all of this, this might make other countries and sports impossible to be posted here, so instead of highest level of competition in the sport, how about the highest level of competition of a sport in a particular country? We'll omit the regular season/round robin games and post the playoffs. We'll also include minor international events (sporting events held between national teams) but I'll rather include games starting at the knockout stages. We'd include regular season games if it's a derby/rivaley match, or in the case of the US NCAA, between two (not just one) ranked teams. As for the playoffs, we may include conference tournaments (like the Big East tournaments) as well as March Madness, the BCS, etc. --Howard the Duck 07:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, it's a matter of drawing the line. International friendly soccer matches are not notable. The basketball game every year where the Duke Blue Devils play a top-ranked CIS team (either at Duke or in Canada) is not notable (even though it's virtually the only NCAA vs. CIS basketball matchup in a given year). RMC-Army in ice hockey is not notable despite it being the oldest college hockey rivalry (and again is among the few NCAA vs. CIS matchups in the college hockey season). Major League Soccer is less notable compared to Serie A. As for local derbies, EPL is rife with them IIRC, and I don't think we need to report who wins in each of the eight times the New York Islanders and the New York Rangers face every year, or the four or six times that the New York Yankees face the New York Mets face every year, etc. More discussion is needed to form some consensus as to where to draw the line. kelvSYC 20:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

What can be notable for Canadians may not be notable for Tajiks and vice-versa. I'm fine with the Yankees-Mets regular season games 6x a year or even the Red Sox-Yankees regular season games 20x a year, after all they generate so much interest, even outside NYC and Boston, even the U.S. I'm also fine with any top championship of any sport (even kabaddi) reported here, as long as its the top competition.

As for North American leagues, I'd rather see a weekly or fortnight roundups, like the Knicks still languishing at the bottom of the Atlantic while the Jazz are having a surprising start, plus of course the occasional rivalry game (how about an emphasis on inter-division rivalries, like Lakers-Celtics, Brewers-Twins, etc?)

For European soccer leagues, how about reporting the national championship and/or cup of the top 11 (well since the SPL is 11th, and we can't leave out Old Firm matches) national leagues by basis of the UEFA coefficients? For European competitions, I'd rather not see qualifying results unless a team in the stature of Ajax gets eliminated early. We'd leave out the round robin matches until Matchday 6, then we'll report the knockout stages. I dunno how CONMEBOL works so any equivalent, like perhaps Argentine and Brazilian leagues.

For club sport anywhere else (Asia, Africa, etc.), we report the playoffs of the top national league in the sport, so we'll report that the playoffs of the 2006 Japan Series, the 2006 PBA Philippine Cup, the Ranji Trophy, etc, plus the occasional monthly roundups.

For collegiate sport in the U.S., we report games between ranked teams (both teams must be ranked). For collegiate sport elsewhere, we report the playoffs, plus the occasional monthly roundups.

For competitions between national teams, if the title says "World" (like FIFA World Cup, FIBA World Championship, we'd report everything, from the round robin stage up to the Final; for everything else (like the baseball Intercontinental Cup), we'd report the knockout stages.

For competitions between individuals, I'd rather see the final result (like boxing, taekwondo, tennis, etc.), except if the event has a tournament format where the top seed is eliminated.

--Howard the Duck 07:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Expanding on the thread I started in the section below, here are my thoughts:
  • College sports in the U.S. — Two ranked teams, definitely in. If a top-10 team is defeated by an unranked team, definitely in, since a big upset is every bit as notable as a game between ranked teams. A lower-ranked team losing is borderline. All other games involving ranked teams should go into the season article for that sport. (Yes, that means someone needs to create a season article for college basketball!) Games involving unranked teams should not be included unless they are especially newsworthy — such as the Miami-FIU brawl this season, or a team playing two scheduled games in one day (which happened last season in small-college football).
  • UEFA competitions — I largely agree with Howard's ideas. However, I see one instance in which group stage results should be reported prior to Matchday 6. If the results of a given day mean that a team has secured a place in the knockout stages, or a team of the stature of Ajax, Bayern, or Man United is assured of elimination from the Champions League or all European play, the relevant result(s) should be included. — Dale Arnett 13:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with the UEFA comment, we'd include the teams when they advance to the round of 16. Should we also report on the drawing of lots in the knockout stages? --Howard the Duck 08:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Calling the NFL crap is like tugging on Superman's cape, spitting into the wind or pulling the mask off the Lone Ranger. Uncalled for, but then again, the guy who said that is a Canadian. NoseNuggets 1:57 PM US EST Nov 22 2006.

Don't blame me, but the differences make it appear that Canadian football takes a different kind of skill which I tend to favor (although I think expanding the roster this season made CFL boring this year compared to last year). Besides, making a Canadian football team is more difficult than making it onto an American football team. kelvSYC 09:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Still, if you plan to adopt a ranking policy for, say, NCAA, then a similar policy should apply for, say, CIS, which also ranks its teams with a top ten in each sport. CIS sports, however, because there are so few universities compared to NCAA, tend to have ranked teams in a weird way that violates what we agreed upon by consensus - it's entirely possible (but highly unlikely) that all the teams in one conference are ranked, for example. Ranking teams is also an issue in, say, the CHL, where there is a top-10 ranking there as well. Furthermore, US networks have a habit of ranking NHL teams late in the season for playoff races. kelvSYC 09:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

More thoughts...

Kelv does have some good thoughts. Now that I've thought about it some, I think that we should make a LOT more use of the individual season articles than we do now.

For example, I'm now beginning to think that all of the NCAA college football scores listed for the 2006 season could have been better put in the article 2006 NCAA Division I-A football season. Similarly, English Premiership scores for this season can go into FA Premier League 2006-07, Serie A scores in Serie A 2006-07, etc. For examples of how this could work, see Euroleague 2006-07, 2006-07 Guinness Premiership, or 2006 Air New Zealand Cup.

How do you think this would have looked for college football last week?

• American college football (rankings from AP poll):
  • (1) Ohio State 42, (2) Michigan 39 (a brief description would be useful here, considering the significance of this matchup)
  • (4) Southern Cal 23, (17) California 9
  • Cincinnati 30, (7) Rutgers 11
  • (19) Virginia Tech 27, (14) Wake Forest 6
  • For other significant games, see 2006 NCAA Division I-A football season.

What do you all think about this idea? — Dale Arnett 22:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with it. I do think, though, that in addition to limiting the amount of "major sport" scores, we do have to think about drawing the line somewhere on all of the new sports we've been seeing here recently. I'm no expert on beach handball or wheelchair tennis, but when I see so many redlinks among the results, I have a feeling those sports are not of tremendously widespread interest. -- Mwalcoff 23:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with these too. I'll not worry about redlinks though, sooner or later they'll have articles. --Howard the Duck 07:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree the line has to be drawn somewhere - I mean, even as far as football (soccer)'s concerned, the ELF Cup has made an appearance today! Whatever next, the Island Games? -- Arwel (talk) 07:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with all of you too, although we should not prevent information to appear because people or teams don't have articles yet. The ELF Cup is OK with me, but should not have all its matches here, just the final stages. SportsAddicted | discuss 09:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: Upon further review, I decided that a top-10 team losing to an unranked team should definitely go in the main portal. Big upsets are every bit as newsworthy as two ranked teams. I've updated my example to include Cincinnati defeating Rutgers. — Dale Arnett 14:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, major upsets should be included as well, I agree. SportsAddicted | discuss 14:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Conclusion

So does anyone have logical objections to the proposed rules for this page? --Howard the Duck 08:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

My main concern is that the proposed rules, as we have seen, do not specify what sporting events should be included at all. I don't mind limiting the degree of football coverage, but I think we're seeing far too many events of questionable "notability," such as the ELF Cup, beach handball and the Jujitsu World Championships. I imagine pretty soon we'll have some students listing the result of their World Quarters Championship.

In addition, I'm also thinking that maybe we should keep every NFL score, while perhaps cutting some of the game summaries. If you look at yesterday's games, you can see that at least half of them are "notable" in some way. If we have a week where we include eight games and leave out, say, five, it will seem like we're leaving games out by mistake. By at least including all of the scores, we can make it clear we're not making any such errors. -- Mwalcoff 00:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The NFL is nearing the end of its regular season so more games count now. As for other sports, I have no problem with it. The ELF Cup or even the FIFI Wild Cup was fine since they're the highest non-FIFA football tourneys. As as it's the sport is competed on its highest level, anything will be fine.

Or we can scrap all rules, then let anything to be osted here, with the only deletions are perhaps those which are not cited. --Howard the Duck 05:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I still say we divide the CE Sports into "North America" and "International" secitions on their own seperate pages, and I will let the mods decide on a path of direction if we need to. NoseNuggets 9:57 AM US EST Nov 28 2006.

Neverthless, the rules proposed here, as long it is agreed upon, will be applied to both subportals, in case it really is divided. --Howard the Duck 07:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

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