Talk:List of massacres in Israel

geography not as relevant as perpetrator

Please add the final 2 totals of deaths in the table.

What is the point of all these wikipedia articles of massacres in a political geographic area as opposed to a list of massacres by perpetrator?

There should for balance be an article listing atrocities on Palestinian settlements including:

• Balad al-Sheikh On December 31, 1947 60+ deaths
• Saasaa by the Haganah in 1948 mid-February 11+ deaths
• Saasaa at the end of October
• Deir Yassin On April 9, 1948, 40+ civilians
• Saliha On October 30, 1948 60+ deaths by israeli 7th brigade.
• Lydda On July 9, 1948 200+ deaths

To find out how often they massacre and how many, I have to go to how many other wikipedia pages exactly? Are the declared wars not massacres also? I see a "List of wars involving Israel" which doesn't see the need to mention non-Israeli casualties. I don't think I will find the answers in wikipedia's "crime", "war" or "death" portals either.

To find the truth on certain issues one must look away from wikipedia entirely. 101.184.107.122 (talk) 22:16, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Kfar Etzion

I would suggest that this didn't occur in Israel. Padres Hana (talk) 15:26, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Also the number of fatalities includes those killed in battle - not just the unarmed prisoners who were shot.Padres Hana (talk) 15:29, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Also I would suggest the Hebron events belong in "List of massacres in Palestinian Territories".Padres Hana (talk) 15:32, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

And reading the Safad 1834 page there is no mention of number of deaths or mass rape - can't understand why I am wasting time on this.Padres Hana (talk) 15:32, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Padres Hana, have the three incidents you added to the table yesterday been specifically called massacres? Because not every bomb attack is considered such. I am not familiar with the ones you named.

About Safed 1834, I thought I had read from the original artical that the the number of casualties was 500. I went back and read it again, and you are right. It is not listed. The text does say "Accounts of the month long pogrom tell of large scale looting, killing and raping of Jews as well as the destruction of their homes and synagogues by local Druse and Muslim Arabs." It is in the second paragraph.--96.60.170.188 (talk) 03:06, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Dear 96.60.170.188 I am not at all clear what the definition of a massacre is. My dictionary says: General slaughter esp. of unresisting persons. This is what I am going by. Padres Hana (talk) 17:38, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

That definition would apply to just about every terrorist attack on Israel. So far I have only listed incidents that have been referred to as massacres by some reputable source. --96.60.170.188 (talk) 02:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Padres Hana here above. Pluto2012 (talk) 14:46, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I've removed Kfar Etzion. It's already in List of massacres in Palestinian Territories Sean.hoyland - talk 14:59, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Content of Page

Please do not change my edits; they are accurate as you will see in the main articles for each incident listed. Please do not remove information. --96.60.170.188 (talk) 04:59, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 04:56, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

---

List of massacres in Israel → List of massacres in Palestine – Many of these massacres took place prior to the establishment of the State of Israel. The article title probably refers to the geographical area on which the State of Israel is located. The conventional name for that geographical area is Palestine and it is the name used in many other Wikipedia articles that discuss events that took place prior to the establishment of the State of Israel. MJC.2012 (talk) 22:40, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Sounds reasonable. The area has a more apt name that is not so bounded in time; shouldn't we use it? Noetica^Tea? 01:31, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support Palestine is the geographic region in which the massacres occurred. Many did not occur in the Kingdom or State of Israel. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 01:57, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Just going through the list, out of the 70 massacres listed, two occurred in the Roman province of Judaea, one occurred under the rule of the Byzantines, one under the rule of the Fatimids, one under the rule of the Ayyubids, six under the rule of the Ottomans, 17 under the rule of the British, and the rest (42) in the modern state of Israel. So, 60% of the article's content refers to the modern state, which is called "Israel". I♦A 08:56, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. An article List of massacres in Palestine would overlap with List of massacres in Palestinian Territories, List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine and Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine War. Better to filter out massacres which took place prior to the establishment of the state (May 15 1948) as well off-GreenLine massacres. --Frederico1234 (talk) 06:11, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

@Fredrico, if we filter out the massacres prior to the establishment of Israel, which list will contain massacres that occurred prior to the British Mandate? Also there is going to be some degree of overlap among these articles whatever way we arrange them. Dlv999 (talk) 07:21, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

As long as I'm aware, there is presently no list article of massacres that occured prior to the Mandate. However, I don't see the lack of such an article as a problem. Most of these list articles in the P-I topic field are of quite low quality and hence of little use. Call me cynical, but I see no reason why an article List of massacres in Palestine wouldn't become similarly poor and useless. Quite the opposite, as designating Israel as part of Palestine (while true) would be an invitation to POV battles.

Maybe we can use dates for example after 1917 or before 1917.--Shrike (talk) 18:29, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Regarding overlap: A filtered article List of massacres in Israel would only overlap with Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine War. An article List of massacres in Palestine would overlap with all list articles mentioned. --Frederico1234 (talk) 12:45, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose Articles like these are generally named in accordance with the current name of the country, since 1948. The current name of this country is Israel. Naming it "Palestine" would imply the massacres took place there in the past before the country was known as Israel. Shaliya waya (talk) 01:34, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

@Shaliya, curious to know about those articles? Could you please mention some examples?

And the article actually does list massacres that took place prior to establishment of Israel (which is explained in my proposal) MJC.2012 (talk) 03:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose Such a renaming would violate Wikipedia's neutrality guidelines. Referring to Israel as "Palestine" is quite offensive and denies that Israel is a Jewish state. Xyz7890 (talk) 02:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to hear that (no offense intended). Remember, what seems "fair" to you may sound offensive to others as well and vice versa. Many of those massacres happened before Israel came to existence. I suggest you re-read WP:NPOV. MJC.2012 (talk) 03:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. Makes sense to use the current official name of any territory in lists like these, purely for simplicity's sake. Many lands have had many names over many years, and borders frequently change. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:51, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

It's factually inaccurate to say those massacres took place in Israel when neither the victims or perpetrators heard of a country called Israel. It's unheard of to forsake factual accuracy for simplicity in any Encyclopedia. MJC.2012 (talk) 03:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

They hadn't heard of it, but virtually everyone looking at this article has. Times have changed. If you were to point out the location of a massacre to someone today, you would be pointing at Israel. Regardless of the mindsets and borders of the time, the sites of the massacres remain the same, and are currently within Israeli borders. We must be factually accurate AND up-to-date. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:22, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes but the title implies that those massacres took place in current Israel and I would have agreed with you if the place in question did not span areas of current conflict and disputes. There are two comments here complaining how offensive it is to call it Palestine - well, it's equally offensive to call Palestine Israel. How do we resolve this? My proposal is to use the geographical name of that area, another alternative that sounds reasonable is to filter out massacres prior to the establishment of Israel which is proposed in this thread as well. MJC.2012 (talk) 01:52, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

• Comment It has been asserted that it is common practice to list massacres to a country prior to the establishment of that country. Does anyone have examples of such article to demonstrate this common practice? Dlv999 (talk) 07:28, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• The lists of massacres for Australia, Greece, India, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and quite a few others list massacres occurring in a particular region prior to the establishment of that country. I♦A 08:31, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose This would be very offensive. Calling Israel "Palestine" is very offensive. Linda Olive (talk) 20:27, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Very true, but it is equally offensive to call Palestine "Israel" and it is also true a number of the massacres on the list occurred in Palestine and not Israel. Dlv999 (talk) 21:28, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Question If the article is moved, how would the criteria for inclusion be changed? In my experience, Israel and Palestine are not conterminous. The boundaries of the modern State of Israel are clearly defined, but can you define specific boundaries for Palestine, within which massacres should be included? It might be possible to separate this list into specific time periods – List of massacres in the Roman Empire, List of massacres in the Ottoman Empire – or along ethnic boundaries – List of massacres of Jews. There are precedents for both in List of massacres in the Soviet Union and list of massacres of Indigenous Australians. Okay, so it's basically become an oppose vote instead of a question, but what can you do? I♦A 08:44, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Refusal to name Israel is not NPOV. There is a separate article for massacres in Palestinian territories (West Bank and Gaza). Neotarf (talk) 19:31, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose I agree with the arguments that the title should be left alone. There are already articles for massacres in the Palestinian territories, the British Mandate of Palestine, etc. This article is about those that have taken place within the borders of modern Israel. As others have pointed out, plenty of articles in this category list massacres that have taken place in countries before their establishment. Furthermore, in my opinion, calling this "List of massacres in Palestine" seems a bit biased. --96.60.169.178 (talk) 22:38, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

So far the majority seems to be in favor of leaving the title alone. --96.60.169.178 (talk) 01:23, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Scope of article

The scope of the article should be that of massacres which occurred within the borders of the modern state. Including massacres from say the mandate period is highly confusing as the state did not exist by then. --Frederico1234 (talk) 10:12, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Also, there can be absolutely no justification for including massacres that occurred prior to the founding of the state of Israel, and in an area outside the borders of the present day state of Israel. E.g the Hebron 1929 massacre which is currently in the article, after being re-inserted by an editor in violation of 1rr. Dlv999 (talk) 11:43, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Agree, this should only be about modern Israel - post-1948.Greyshark09 (talk) 17:23, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

The Hebron massacre of 1929 is no longer listed. As for removing incidents that occured prior to 1948, many articles in this category include massacres that took place prior to the modern country's establishment. Several are listed in the section above. --96.60.169.178 (talk) 21:42, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Once you're all done here you can commence removing all those that technically don't belong here as well. Let me know if you need any help. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:55, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think incidents that took place prior to 1948 should be deleted. As previously stated, most articles in this category include examples that took place before that country was established. I think the point of this category (massacres by country) is to name them by location. Just because certain incidents took place before 1948 doesn't mean they don't exist. --96.60.169.178 (talk) 20:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

But then the title would need to be changed to reflect that. Do you have a suggestion? --Frederico1234 (talk) 21:07, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

There has already been an argument about the title. The veredict was that it should be left alone. This is a list of massacres that have occured within the borders of modern Israel. The article about massacres in Turkey includes those which occured before modern Turkey was established. The same with India. And the UK. And Australia. And many others. This article clearly states that it includes incidents that occured in what is modern Israel before that country was officially established, so there is no confusion. This is about location. There are other articles to deal with time. --96.60.169.178 (talk) 01:50, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to add the Jewish revolt against Rome also took place in what now is the "West Bank" (Judea and Samaria), like many other events in this article. We should delete them all like 1929 massacre in Hebron? I don't think so.--Jabotito48 (talk) 11:56, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

It does not make sense to use the 1949 borders for events which occured two thousends years before those borders came into existence, agreed. --Frederico1234 (talk) 12:44, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be two points under discussion here

1. Should the article include massacres that occurred before the founding of the state of Israel but within in the geographical area of present day Israel?
2. Should the article include massacres that occurred before the founding of the state of Israel and outside the borders of the present day state of Israel?

My view is that point 1 is debatable and I can see reasonable arguments on both sides. Regarding point 2 on the other hand, it seems absurd to include massacres that occurred before the founding of Israel and outside its current boundaries. I haven't seen a single reasoned argument as to why we should include these massacres (e.g. the Hebron massacre that has been recently re-inserted.) Dlv999 (talk) 13:32, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Here's an idea: have a separate chart on this page for massacres that occurred in the land that presently is Israel before 1948.Linda Olive (talk) 02:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

When is a massacre not a massacre?

Undid revision 508767344 by Merlinsack (talk) the definition of massacre is not in dispute. However other instances in wikipedia eg list of massacres in india, list of massacres in the us, list incidents where there is an RS and a generally accepted use of the name massacre. See this which follows the wikipedia section that you quoted. 'no clear-cut definition for when killings are referred to as massacres or not, rather, this choice is a result of an individual or collective assessment, depending e.g. on how the circumstances of the killing align with given ideas of acceptable use of force and on the desired status of an event in collective memory.' Note the words 'for when killings are referred to as massacres'. This surely precludes WP:OR which just calls an incident a massacre without an RS that uses the word massacre. I suggest that massacre otherwise becomes a weasel word. Take this to dispute if you wish. Regards.195.171.9.240 (talk) 16:52, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

numerous incidents have been restored in list of massacres in israel where the word massacre is not used in the wikipedia title. But the same editor has removed material from list of massacres in palestinian territories on the grounds thatthe wikipedia title does not include the word massacre, though it is described as such by RS given in that article. Why are there two different rules?86.171.209.221 (talk) 04:39, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

The incident in the list of massacres in the Palestinian territories was removed because many do not consider it to be a massacre, not because of the wikipedia title. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 22:37, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware there is no information available based on an extensive survey of reliable sources that discuss any of these incidents, whether they occurred in either in Israel or the Palestinian territories, which would make a statement about how many people/sources regard any given incident as a "massacre" a reliable statement. I think the "many do consider it" and "many do not consider it" arguments apply to pretty much all incidents. As far as I can tell, the decision procedure regarding whether something can be described as a massacre is that an editor found sensible reliable sources that said that it was. Editors generally don't approach these things in a systematic way, nor is there a defined threshold in terms of usage by reliable sources beyond which it is okay for Wikipedia to refer to any given attack as a massacre. Editors generally don't look at the totality of reliable sources that cover an incident and compare the frequency of occurrence of various descriptions such as "massacre", "attack" etc and use those numbers to determine whether a sufficient number of sources have described something as a massacre. The notion of "a sufficient number of sources" is undefined. What tends to happen in my experience is that editors look for specific terminology they prefer and ignore the rest so that an event can be framed in the way the want it framed, cite some sources, and include the incident in lists like these. As you can probably tell, I'm not a fan of lists like these based on fuzzy criteria. They seem rather like having lists of "pretty celebrities", "evil people", "good people", "heinous crimes" etc. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I am in general agreement with Sean, but if we are going to have lists such as this, I think we need to look to the titles of the Wikipedia articles. Each article's name is supposed to be based on the most common name used by reliable sources. This list isn't the right place to re-litigate whether a particular incident should be labeled a massacre. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 20:12, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

most of the 'massacres' that were restored here are simply invidents where the word massacre has been added by someone without any RS. E.g. The jerusalem bus 2 and bus 19 'massacres' are known in wikipedia by entirely different names. If no RS is provided that gives the name of the incident using the word massacre, then the incident does not belong here. I too would be happy to see the whole list removed, but until then it should be a list of events that have RS using the word massacre in the title.Robot wagner (talk), —Preceding undated comment added 21:21, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The problem is that a determined editor can find a reliable source that calls any incident a massacre. That's why article are supposed to be based on the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources (emphasis added). — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

68.6.227.26 ref your above claim that The incident in the list of massacres in the Palestinian territories was removed because many do not consider it to be a massacre, not because of the wikipedia title. --68.6.227.26 (talk) 22:37, 2 October 2012 (UTC) 68.6.227.26 this statement is contradicted by this other statement that you made when you removed the massacre in Gaza on the grounds that The Wikipedia title for this is "Gaza War"; which rule would you like to apply? Also you have restored many 'massacres' here on the grounds that they are 'generally considered to be a massacre,' but you have not provided RS that show that these are generally refereed to using the word massacre in the title.Robot wagner (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:34, 3 October 2012 (UTC)blocked sock of Dalai lama ding dong

Well, I think Malik's suggestion is fine since there is zero chance of the editing community giving up the opportunity to make lists like these. It removes one layer of potential dispute and pushes any article rename/move discussions down to the individual articles, which is the right place for them to take place. It's also a simple rule that anyone can understand and follow and it's easy to police. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:12, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

i agree, and propose that all incidents where wikipedia does not already have an article using the word massacre in the title should be removed. Is there agrement on that?Robot wagner (talk) 18:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)blocked sock of Dalai lama ding dong

I just want to make sure I understand fully - a blocked editor can create a sock, open a discussion, and make a policy that should be applied to Wikipedia articles, and then apply it even when the last comment is the blocked sock asking if there's an agreement on it? Doesn't seem right. --Jethro B 03:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The sock was one of three or four editors who were edit-warring over the article. If nobody else cared to join the discussion, whose fault is that? If you have a better suggestion for including and excluding articles from this list, by all means share it. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:07, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

When learning about the Boston Massacre, I was taught that a massacre is defined as any attack that results in 3 or more deaths of innocents. How reliable that is, I don't know. The best way to resolve this is to either have a definition of massacre or limit this page to articles that write it was a massacre in the title or lead (yes, sort of contrary to what I wrote above, but I've looked it over again and my initial reaction seems to be an overreaction). So I think that, if there aren't any objections to existing material, this is fine as it is. --Jethro B 04:12, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

When is Israel?

Can somebody explain to me why things that occurred prior to mid-May 1948 are on this list? nableezy - 17:17, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

See the discussion sections above about renaming the article and about its scope. I agree with you that "Israel" generally refers to the modern State of Israel, and massacres before its establishment are probably out of scope. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:48, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I saw, but that discussion is stale and doesnt seem to have any reason given for maintaining entries for a time out of the scope of the article. Ill wait a bit more for somebody to actually give a reason before removing anything prior to "Israel" existing. nableezy - 14:31, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Stale, yes, because it was closed with consensus not to change the name and that the article was fine with the name. --Jethro B 18:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Im not talking about changing the name. Im talking about the section #Scope of article. By my count there were 3 users agreeing with my position, the IP 96.60.169.178 and a blocked sockpuppet of a banned editor opposing it, brewcrewer making a comment that didnt take a position, same for Linda Olive. Now there is also myself and Malik agreeing that what happened before Israel's existence is outside of the scope of a list of events that took place in Israel. So yes, I think there is a consensus, just not one where everything is fine as is. nableezy - 19:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Discussing the title and most of the comments seemed connected to what the scope of the article would be. If we're going to keep all the material, then let's change the title to "Palestine." Some supported, consensus was not to though. On the contrapositive side, if we're going to keep the title, then let's remove some of the material. It's still the same either way. As users like InedibleHulk wrote, "Makes sense to use the current official name of any territory in lists like these, purely for simplicity's sake. Many lands have had many names over many years, and borders frequently change." --Jethro B 19:21, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are going on about. My point however is simple. Israel did not exist before mid-May 1948. Anything that happened before that did not take place "in Israel". We already have an articles List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine and Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine War. This article's scope is what happened in Israel. Things that did not happen in Israel do not belong on a list of things that happened in Israel. nableezy - 19:49, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

If you're going to argue that, then you should get consensus for that before, as previous consensus indicates that the title is appropriate to the article content, and vice versa. --Jethro B 20:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Again, the one discussion on the scope of the article had 3 users agreeing with my position and 1 user disagreeing. And now 2 more (myself and Malik) agree that what happened before Israel did not happen in Israel. And finally, arguments about "consensus" miss the point. Ill leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out what the point of this page is. nableezy - 20:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Hardly looks that way, as the consensus was not to rename it, which would extend to the geographic region, and rather keep the name, despite the article content. The scope of the article content and the title were apparently compatible in that discussion. Note also that there are actually two explicit comments against what you said (Shaliya waya and Inedible Hulk), as opposed to just one, as you're claiming. Note furthermore that it's not "2 more," as Malik already said in the discussion the same position as he said here.

Thus, if you want to include only explicit statements of agreement or disagreement, we have 2 in the above discussion and 1 more here (me), compared to 3 in the above discussion, according to your claim, and 1 more here (you). Looking at the above discussion though, I actually count only 1 editor agreeing with you, which is Malik. Noetica supports changing the title in order to keep the content, content which you'd like to delete, but feel free to include him in the numbers, it wouldn't make a difference. Every single other vote is oppose. Thus, it appears that it's actually 3-3. And that's including Noetica. Otherwise, the majority is in favor of the article as is.

Of course, you should know that consensus is not determined by a vote count. What appears to be here is that there simply isn't any consensus to remove the content or change the title to fit the content. In addition, it's been noted that "The lists of massacres for Australia, Greece, India, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and quite a few others list massacres occurring in a particular region prior to the establishment of that country," which is exactly what this article does as well. --Jethro B 21:34, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Sherlock, I am not talking about renaming the article. A requested move where a common refrain was "it is offensive to call Israel Palestine" has absolutely nothing to do with a discussion on the scope of the article. Anything that happened prior to Israel did not happen in Israel. And you still havent addressed that issue. The requested move have absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about, so you can keep bringing it up like it matters to this discussion, but it doesnt. Oh, and finally, Israel is not the successor state to the British Mandate, Israel itself disavowed such a notion (which is why they refuse to repay the British government for the Mandate's debts) nableezy - 21:51, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Jethro, the previous discussion was about whether to rename the article, there was a clear consensus to keep the name. Some people discussed the scope issue within that discussion, but there is no consensus or even any concerted attempt to reach one on that point (which was a side issue to the discussion).

Nableezy has raised a valid point, there are massacres listed in the article which occurred prior to the establishment of Israel. I think what might be more useful than picking over the bones of the discussion about the name change would be to address the point point by Nableezy: what evidence and policy support the current state of affairs, what evidence and policy support removing the material prior to the establishment of Israel? Dlv999 (talk) 22:20, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Nableey, if the previous discussion was just about renaming it, and thus a valid reason to exclude the people I've stated here, then you shouldn't consider any people from there who agree with you either.

Nableezy and Dlv99, I'm capable of reading oppose or support votes and seeing what they were discussing. And I've specifically excluded those who used the reasons that renaming it b/c Palestine is offensive from my vote count. 2nd grade math would indicate that there were more oppose votes than just 3, which is the number I gave. I counted only those that explicitly connected the article title to the scope, who said that there are similar articles for other countries where the scope includes materials before said country existed, or that it's common to include the current name of the country even if there's prior material. --Jethro B 23:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Youre counting people from a completely unrelated discussion instead of just answering the question. As it stands right now two people agree that events prior to the founding of Israel are out of scope, you apparently disagree without a reason, and Dlv hasnt said anything. Can you please provide the reasons why events that took place thousands, hundreds, and tens of years before Israel belong in a list of things that happened in Israel? nableezy - 00:30, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

This is great. So now only you are allowed to use votes from a different discussion that support your stance, which is what you did when you wrote, regarding a certain discussion above, "By my count there were 3 users agreeing with my position, the IP 96.60.169.178 and a blocked sockpuppet of a banned editor opposing it, brewcrewer making a comment that didnt take a position, same for Linda Olive." However, votes that discuss exactly what you're discussing but in a discussion and it doesn't agree with your stance, evidently aren't allowed... You're taking votes from a discussion on the scope that agree with your stance; I'm taking votes from a discussion on the title but which voted explicitly regarding what we're discussing, the scope and how it fits in the article regarding the title.

And it's shocking that you think I haven't offered any reasons. Am I talking to a wall??? Consider reading this discussion over. Let's start with the fact this is how similar Wikipedia articles are written, such as the lists of massacres for Australia, Greece, India, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and quite a few others list massacres occurring in a particular region prior to the establishment of that country. This article isn't unique in the fact. That's just how these Wikipedia articles are. And just like those articles, the lead says "and its predecessors" in it. This article's very first sentence writes "The following are a list of massacres that have occurred in Israel and its predecessors." It thus follows the format of similar articles. --Jethro B 01:56, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

You can be shocked all you like, but the section I was referencing is specifically about the scope of the article. Shouldnt take a genius to figure out why thats relevant. WP:OSE isnt a particularly compelling argument. And what pray tell are Israel's predecessors? nableezy - 14:33, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I think too that the events before 15 May, 1948 should be removed from this article. I add that Kfar Etzion is not in Israel and that there lack many massacres. Pluto2012 (talk) 14:44, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

anything before 1948 should be removed, as Israel did not exist until then.86.130.148.7 (talk) 22:08, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Can you explain why the article for List of massacres in Israel is thus unique from all other articles in the series? Also note that the IP address seems to be a sock of DLDD. --Jethro B 00:25, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Each article stands on its own, that other articles have problems does not mean this one should mirror those problems. Again, see WP:OSE. It seems that there is a consensus for removing events prior to Israel existing. nableezy - 01:41, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Got it. So all we really need is for a certain # of editors with POVs to come to an article in a series and radically shift it from all other articles in the series, simply because they don't like it. In Russian, they call that a double standard. Note that Pluto didn't even give a reason as to why to remove this, and has just now somehow popped into this article. And then shortly after that, we got a DLDD sock coming here.

And again, you can't just ignore comments made above by other editors because the title of the section didn't deal with what we're discussing here, even though their comments specifically did, if you want to include comments by editors from other sections. Shaliya waya wrote above, "Articles like these are generally named in accordance with the current name of the country, since 1948. The current name of this country is Israel." And hence this article's title is fine with the scope, and we don't need to remove stuff prior to the establishment of Israel. Or InedibleHulk, "Makes sense to use the current official name of any territory in lists like these, purely for simplicity's sake. Many lands have had many names over many years, and borders frequently change." (He's still active, if we asked him to comment here I'm sure he would). Or IgnorantArmies, who noted "The lists of massacres for Australia, Greece, India, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and quite a few others list massacres occurring in a particular region prior to the establishment of that country." --Jethro B 02:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Im not ignoring anything. You cant take a months old discussion on a different topic and act like it is relevant to this discussion. nableezy - 06:27, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. This article includes events prior to US independence in 1776, like the Apalachee massacre, Boston Massacre, Paxton Boys, Westminster massacre, Draper's Meadow massacre. We should follow the same pattern in this case.--Sonntagsbraten (talk) 04:20, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

WP:OSE is not a valid argument. And in this case, we have Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine War and List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine. Anything before that can be included in List of massacres in Palestine. Further, some of these things would also need to be removed from this list. For instance, Jerusalem, as it existed prior to the Mandate, falls entirely out of Israel. How is that included even with claiming the history of Palestine belonging in this list. Throughout the topic area things are split up by time period. I see no reason why this article should be different, and neither do the majority of the people responding. You can even link to all the other articles with an explanation of the things that happened in the mandate being in that article, pre-Mandate another. nableezy - 06:27, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, you're citing an essay, not a guideline, and not a policy. So the whole thing about WP:OSE is irrelevant. Secondly, it even says, "When used correctly though, these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes." We're dealing with consistency here. Again, irrelevant, as it's an essay, not a guideline, and not a policy. --Jethro B 06:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, that another article is crap is not a reason to keep this article crap, so no WP:OSE is not irrelevant. You want a policy? Here's one. Provide sources for each of the entries saying that they occurred in Israel. WP:V and WP:SYNTH and all that. nableezy - 06:51, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

"and it's precedents." I'm sorry that you feel this article is crap, I don't share that view, but either way, that doesn't mean an essay magically becomes a policy. --Jethro B 19:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

No, please provide reliable sources for each event having taken place in Israel. The end. WP:V is a rather clear policy. And you havent answered that the events in Jerusalem didnt take place in an area in Israel, then or now. nableezy - 18:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

To answer one of your comment here above : there were so many massacres in that geographic area and the events are so contentious, particularly regarding the use of the words Palestine and Israel, that all the articles must be organised very strictly. In the current case, Israeli didn't exist before 15 May, 1948. That is the reason why also the article named 1948 Arab-Israeli War starts with the events after 14 May and that an article is dedicated to what happens before, in Mandatory Palestine, before Israeli existed. More, without that organisation, there will be a lot of repetitions among articles. Pluto2012 (talk) 17:07, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Mandatory Palestine lasted a bit over 25 years. There were tons of events beforehand, which wouldn't fit into an article on Mandatory Palestine. Those events, such as the ones that took place in the Roman period, took place in what was referred to then, and as seen in written documents, Israel. --Jethro B 17:36, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

No, they took place in what the sources call Palestine. And so they should be in an article about massacres in Palestine. nableezy - 18:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, this idea was rejected above. --Jethro B 18:14, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

By who and where? And please dont say the RM, because it isnt relevant to the discussion. Nobody is trying to rename this article. Please get this through your head. We arent calling Israel Palestine. But the place name during the time prior to the mandate and after Roman conquest was Palestine. Not Israel. Anybody with even a moderate level of knowledge of the region knows that. nableezy - 18:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

There is a rather obvious majority in favor of restricting the scope of the article to what actually happened in Israel (shocker). One user cannot hold an article hostage, and as such I will be making the edit. nableezy - 18:34, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Matza suicide bombing

Ref including this in this list. It is WP:UNDUE a simple google search will show that this is not widely described as a massacre. The views of one journalist in a book published by a politically motivated publishing house is not sufficient to change this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.212.30 (talk) 08:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I add a comment from earlier discussion. (edit conflict) The problem is that a determined editor can find a reliable source that calls any incident a massacre. That's why article are supposed to be based on the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources (emphasis added). — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 21:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.212.30 (talk)

First three massacres should be removed

The intro/preface implies that the list includes only incidents prior to the 1948 war, the first 3 occurred during the 1948 war. Furthermore, there is already a page devoted to massacres during the 1948 war. For these reasons, the first 3 incidents should be removed. Yaakovaryeh (talk) 04:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree.

In facts, it should be expanded because these 3 lists overlap.

The First half of the 1948 war occured in Mandatory Palestine and the second half mainly in Israel.

Pluto2012 (talk) 15:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

And thinking more about it, in fact, we just have two lists :

Those of Mandatory Palestine

Those of Israel

The article Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine war is not a list but a "real" article with analysis.

Pluto2012 (talk) 15:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2023

Chevron Massacar? 185.182.71.28 (talk) 23:38, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 15:43, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Unlink Arabic language languagelink?

The Arabic article that is linked has the title "List of Israeli massacres in Palestine", clearly not the same as the title of this article. Can someone do this? 23d49h24 (talk) 00:37, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Notes field: Number of injured, but not number of killed? Why

Why do the Notes field list the number of injured but not the number of those killed? Am I overlooking this information elsewhere? Thanks. The Sanity Inspector (talk) 19:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

List of massacres in Palestine

"Number of Victims and Detailed Events”

62.18.34.192 (talk) 19:17, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Massacres commited by the IDF

by defeniton of massacres (event killing innocents civilians ) then all the civilian casualties caused by the IDF including the bombings of refugee camps should be considered massacre's Agirlwithabrain (talk) 21:39, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

7 Oct 2023: one single MASSACRE

WHY have the massacres committed by Hamas on that date in several civilian communities not been kept together under one name, as was initially done? They have been splintered at some point into individual articles by locality, all titled "massacre of...", but the MASS KILLING IN ONE LARGER TERROR ATTACK, which includes them all, has been dilluted by mixing them with Hamas attacks on military facilities and Israeli counter-actions.

WHY? For obvious reasons: to avoid the blame of TERRORISM and water it down. Can't get more POV than that.

The only RIGUROUS & LOGICAL thing to do (I'll leave out for now the aspect of it being the only ETHICAL thing to do), would be to name the existing set of articles, and create if needed possibly missing ones, based on the following logical scheme:

• 2023 Israel-Hamas war
  • October 7 Hamas attack
    • October 7 terrorist massacres
    • October 7 Hamas attacks on military bases
  • IDF war with Hamas in Gaza
    • Add whatever substacks you wish.

There are CLEAR, DISTINCT DIFFERENCES between these elements and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise. The easy proof is that no one dares to rename the individual articles about massacres in individual kibbutzes "events" or other weasel words, but the entire category isn't allowed do be called "7 Oct massacre(s)". Disgust is the least one can feel about this hypocrisy.

INTENTIONALITY: There is plenty of material about Hamas planning for years in advance, and explicitely ordering its terror agents, to attack civilians and: kill, rape, mutilate, and abduct them. This with the explicit purpose of "destroying their honour", a well-known jihadist concept, which nowadays has nothing to do with legitimate modern warfare, the laws of war, or anything else other than terrorism, by any definition one chooses to pick. The way Hamas officially defines every Jewish fetus, baby, child, teenager under 18 a "future soldier" or a "recruit", every Jewish male over 21 and into their 80s as a "former soldier", and every Arab Israeli, East Jerusalem Palestinian, and foreign worker, a legitimate taget for murder, conforms to all those definitions as well. These views are based in genocidal tribal warfare and fundamentalist Islamic militant jihad, all based in pre-modern i.e. primitive concepts, fundamentally opposed by each and every int'l legistation since WWII and even much earlier.

There are all the necessary elements to call the Oct 7 attacks on civilians as terrorist massacres and see them as one single operation. Do it. Arminden (talk) 15:02, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I have posted a notice about this discussion here: Talk:2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel: Missing category: "Hamass terrorist massacres". The whole discussion can be moved over to that talk-page if you prefer. Arminden (talk) 15:22, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Gush Katif

What about the massacres that happened in Gush Katif during the period of 1946-2005 such as Atzmona Massacre? Anyone else like Nableezy believes that Gush Katif was not part of Israel? With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 18:03, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Gaza is not a part of Israel nor has it ever been. Read the opening lines of this article for more information. nableezy - 19:04, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

The point is about Israel settlement Bnei Atzmon in Gush Katif, and not the Gaza Strip with the State of Palestine. This list is "of massacres in Israel". Bnei Atzmon was part of Hof Aza Regional Council which was part of the State of Israel and Land of Israel until 2005. Please revert your edit. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 02:32, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

No it was not a part of Israel, and no I will not revert it. This is about massacres in Israel. No part of Gaza has ever been in Israel. nableezy - 04:32, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Are you stating that Hof Aza Regional Council was not part of Israel as a country? What country was it part of then? With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 14:30, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

It was in the occupied Gaza Strip. This is fairly basic, but in Israel means in Israel. See the opening of this article for its criteria. And that isn’t even getting in to the weak sourcing for a massacre to begin with. nableezy - 14:42, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

By Israel we mean it was part of Israel (controlled by Israel) and we do not distinguish if it's occupied or not. You clearly saw that Hof Aza Regional Council was part of Israel at that time. Or you think it was part of some other country? Before 1948 it would be British. In 1959–1967 the territory was controlled by Egypt and any massacres would be under Egypt category. You saw that massacres in Jerusalem make it to the list. And it's status is also questionable. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

No that’s not what we mean by in Israel. It was a part of the occupied Palestinian territory of the Gaza Strip. Which, once again, was not in Israel. Again, see the opening of the list for its criteria. This is, once more, very basic and is approaching WP:CIR territory. nableezy - 15:46, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Who we? Again the first sentence of Gaza strip states that it's a "polity and the smaller of the two Palestinian territories (the other being the West Bank)" and not on the Gush Katif which was not under control of Palestinian territories. Is Jerusalem occupied and should it be in the list or not? With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 16:48, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

We Wikipedia. The Jerusalem bombing here was in West Jerusalem as far as I can tell. If there is anything in EJ it should also be removed. nableezy - 17:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I didn't get your point. So you are Wikipedia and I am not Wikipedia? With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

No, Im saying by consensus Wikipedia has not included Gaza in Israel. And you can see that in the opening of this article where it points to another article for inclusion of massacres in Gaza. nableezy - 17:56, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Ok, no problem. If there was such a decision made before I'd appreciate seeing the discussion on it if you happened to know where is it. I'll add it to the link you have pointed out to. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 18:06, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Id remove it there as it isnt clear that it was actually a massacre per the sources anyway. nableezy - 18:07, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

One of the source was provided in the original edit. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 18:32, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

October 7 death tolls

Need to be updated based on new information available in each article. Thank you. 216.16.230.126 (talk) 22:34, 28 December 2023 (UTC)