Talk:List of black NHL players

Other

And Joel Ward (Houston Aeros forward - AHL) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.101.67.193 (talk) 23:35, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

If there isn't also a page on white NHL players and asian NHL players (if any) isn't this page racist for singling out the black players??? 82.40.134.235 (talk) 18:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Given the demographic breakdown of the NHL, not to mention the surprising frequency it comes up in conversation among hockey fans, I think it's fine. More importantly, not everything racial is racist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.119.237 (talk) 00:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

There is one Asian NHL player that I know of, Paul Kariya, but if there are no or very few others, I think it'd be unnecessary to make an Asian NHL players page. A page for whites seems kind of pointless, since almost all NHL players are white. 24.65.136.162 (talk) 02:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

He is either Canadian or American. Brad Park is not Richard Park's relative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LaidOff (talk • contribs) 20:35, 28 June 2008

Isn't Setoguchi a hapa?Ndriley97 (talk) 22:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

A List of ice hockey players of Asian descent has been created. TakTak (talk) 14:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

John Carter

There is a forward for the Trinity College Bantams named John Carter absent from this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.104.188 (talk • contribs) 02:59, 5 June 2008

• If he played in the minors , maybe he should be listed under notables. Just because he played college, unless he was a real star, should not be enough to include him. Truth be told, counting minors and colleges, there have been perhaps over a hundred players of African descent.

I think an extensive and notable career in the minors, and a few games in the NHL, WHA, or any other major league or First Division team in the rest of the world should be the pre-requisite for getting on this list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.95.138.22 (talk) 05:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Hockey's Jackie Robinson ?

We need to supply this info. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LaidOff (talk • contribs) 20:35, 28 June 2008

"half black" removed

I got rid of the "half black" references on this page because it's just stupid and racist to call someone "half black." Providing their background is better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whoneedspants (talk • contribs) 09:51, 17 January 2009

Why is it racist? And even if you object to the wording, there's no sense removing the references, as well. Zagalejo^^^ 19:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

RACISM!!!

Its one big shit racism!!! What the hell? List of black players??? what else??? Why the hell are you listing hockeyplayer because of color of their skin? all people are equal and that list doesnt prove it! I suggest to remove it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.114.139.38 (talk • contribs) 22:21, 1 July 2009

YE, thats racism. I dont see any reason to keep it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.113.49.42 (talk) 04:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

agreed. Enigma^msg 05:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Someone else on this page said that not everything racial is racist; that's the right attitude here. I came here just now because I was wondering how many black payers there were in hockey and it turns out that there haven't been all that many. I think that this page is notable and should stay. Danny (talk) 03:22, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I just noticed that this page is incomplete. Hmmm, I think it should still stay unless there have been thousands of black NHL players or something like that. Danny (talk) 03:28, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

NOT RACISM!!!

I see where this entire article was nominated for deletion. That is one very unfortunate and obvious outcome stemming from the racist nature of many of the white administrators and editors on Wikipedia, many whom I might add, have probably never competed in a sport of any kind, save editing Wikipedia pages from the safety and comfort of their parent's basements. As to the imbecile who condems this page at the head of his thread "racism", I would first ask him if has any knowledge of ice hockey, that is, is he a fan of hockey and its history, second, if he has ever played ice hockey, and third, does he know any hockey players personally, from whatever race. I myself know many hockey players, some of them professional, and some of them black. Many black hockey players I know personally, as well as a few hockey historians and authors of historical accounts and biographies of black players, have expressed their appreciativeness and praise of this article to me on several occasions. I would also venture to ask Mr."racism" for his motivation to remove one of the few aticles of praise and recognition for black hockey players on the internet, many of which, have suffered overt racism, lack of proper recognition for their talents, and a general omission of their existence in the media, both general and hockey related. Would Mr."racism" also know of the trials, tribulations and final triumph of Willie O'Ree, the first black hockey player in the NHL? Or how the NHL and many other previously racially apathetic organizations are now beginning to recognize the achievements and accomplishments of not only blacks, but all minorities which have played the great game of hockey. For you, sir, to dismiss the accomplishements of these great players, some of whom have suffered at the hands of real racism, with your imbecilic halfwitted charge of racism, is nothing but pure uadulterated acrimony and gall. I wonder if you, sir, are not a racist, one who would seek to expunge to very mention or thought of blacks( and other minorities) from the interent. Or perhaps you would even seek to redeploy minorities to some section of the internet, a ghetto, if you will, where people of your ilk would be spared the "inconvenience" of looking at a black face, something, I might add, the admins/editors of Wikipedia have succesfuly accomplished so far by deleting almost every photo of black hockey players from its articles( but interestingly enough, no white player photos have been so deleted). I would ask all those who love hockey, history and justice, to defend this article, and other like it, from the threat of deletion by the bitter angry racists that pass for administrators and editors on these pages.Garagehero (talk) 08:30, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

The very idea of promoting articles to be sorted by race, or that a player is notable (or more notable than others) because he is of full or partial descent of a given race is the very definition of racism. It's abundantly clear that you are far too emotionally tied to this topic, but I ask that you tone down the personal slurs and keep things neutral and civil here. Now I ask, how is it notable that a "black" play hockey, when there are plenty of "black players" in other sports where cries of racism are a non-subject these days? I know we all saw Canadian Bacon, and all know the ending where Bill Nunn's character gets to go on to be the first black hockey player in heroic glory, but this is the real world, not a comedy.

Was racism a factor in the world back when O'Ree played? Yes. Does racism back then against a mediocre hockey player make a guy like Robbie Earl more notable today? Only in the minds of the deluded. --Львівське (talk) 17:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

First of all, is this russian halfwit speaking to me? Well I guess he is....Okay...I guess in the broadest terms, yes, a list that includes a player or person by classification of race is "racist". Period. But as I said, only in the broadest terms. Classic racism is the belief or that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural achievements, and usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior to another. This is not the case for this list. What has become clear, however, is that some people on Wikipedia want it deleted for reasons of classic racism....it rubs them the wrong way, why should there be a list of any blacks anywhere, blacks should be expunged from the internet...much like in earlier societies where blacks and other minorities were segregated into ghettos, which is the point I made earlier. It's obvious that even at this late date, and in a place like Wikipedia, there are folks out there who dont like, and even hate, blacks. I understand that. On the internet, it is easy for classic racists to hide behind anonymous masks. But is that a criteria for deletion, when the actual reason and motivation for deletion is hatred of blacks? I think not. Back to the "broadest sense" point. The list that has accumulated is a list and small desription of black hockey players, but not a "classic racist" list, which would be a list meant to vilify and/or, subject the men to prejudice on account of their race. This is not the spirit of the list. It is a list of black hockey players, much like a list of black inventors, or black playrights, or black World War 2 pilots. Merely a list of recognition, and mind you, not superlatives, for that would be a list of only those which have entered the Hockey Hall of Fame. Just a list of recognition. It would no more racist in that sense than a list of Minnesotans who have climbed Everest, etc. Let me see, if I can further get into that thick Slavic skull of yours( haha, now THATS classic racism)....remember when there was a USSR, and their hockey teams seemed invincible, but only because the team included not only russians, but also belorussians, Ukranians, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc...and remember how the USSR players from the Baltics hated to be lumped in together as "russian" players. "No no, we are NOT russian players, we play for the USSR but we are Latvians", etc. Well for blacks, and for many ethnic and racial minorities in North America, it is also important to be recognized, especially when the recognition comes in an endeavor not usually associated with that race. It is important for the participants, who are role models, as well as the minority population at large, who need role models. This phenomenon is not limited to hockey, but also in other sports, but because hockey is the "whitest" of sports, the appearence of a non-white player, while not so unusual these days, still is a source of inspiration for those of their race...can you understand that, Ivan? Another point I would like to make, because sonny, even if you are a russian, I dont think you have ever played the sport of know of its nature here in North America. You mention other sports, many of which blacks are in the majority. These sports do not require a large outlay in money, and because blacks, many whose famiies are in the working class( also whites, Mexicans, asians of working class), find it easy to join football, baseball, basketball or soccer, because all that is required is a ball, glove or helmets. In hockey, there is much expenditure of money to buy pads, skates, helmets, and this process goes on throughout the career of a hockey player, and for the most part, and unlike in russia, is not subsidized, although there are now many programs that do hand out equipment to low income families. This is why there are so few minorities in hockey, and also because Canada and the colder areas of the USA have fewer minorities than other areas. And that is why it is so hard for a minority to get to the major league level in this sport, with many NHL teams having no black players. As I said before, several black hockey players and writers have enjoyed this list, and some have even contributed to it. The NHL itself is compiling its own list and giving recogniton (also a list of russian players, mind you) to the black players. There is also a list of French-Canadian players. Let me ask you something, Ivan....are there many black hockey players in russia? Perhaps its your detachment that has made you "deluded"?

Now, I will adress your lack of respect and personal jibe at me. You state that I am "far too emotionally tied to this topic". How so, please explain. Emotional because I fight classic racism wherever and whenever I see it? Or emotional because I offended some racist friend of yours? Or perhaps because I love the game of hockey and am willing to fight for it anytime anyone casts aspersion on it? Please explain. You also state that I "tone down the personal slurs and keep things neutral and civil here". I see this phrase alot on Wikipedia, especially when admins/editors are confronted with their mistakes or lack of respect to those who use Wikipedia. I was raised to speak up when offended, and look directly in your eye, like a man, not a mealy-mouthed anonymous admin/editor who hides his racism , as I said before, behind an anonymous mask. If you cant stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen, as my father used to say. And what the hell is the reference about Canadian Bacon?? Thats just insane!!! Its not even a good movie. I'll give you a better reference. "Black Ice: The Lost History of the Colored Hockey League of the Maritimes, 1895-1925", by George and Darril Frosty. In it you will find that many of the innovations that were introduced by white hockey teams in the early 1900s, were actually invented by the blacks of the Maritimes in the late 1870s. Back to keeping things "neutral and civil". Let me ask you this. Are the racists who want to delete this "neutral and civil"? IS racism itself a "neutral and civil" act? But you know what a "gas" is? When a little black(or any minority) kid can look it up on Wikipedia and see the contribution to the sport. The history. And what the hey....Wiipedia even has a matryoshka doll entry....how useless is THAT, Ivan??? And in closing I would like again to ask all those who love hockey, history and justice, to defend this article, and other like it, from the threat of deletion by the bitter angry racists that pass for administrators and editors on these pages. Save this article!!!!Garagehero (talk) 10:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not reading through that garbage, but I am reporting you for the personal attacks. Take it easy.--Львівське (talk) 17:02, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

It's not racism. Much was made in the newspapers about how a recent call-up to a local team was the first Middle-Eastern to play professionally. Calling this racist is political correctness gone way too far. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:28, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Countries

There is no mention what nationality the players are. Are all canadian? It should be mentioned. 85.217.38.115 (talk) 07:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

There is a problem with the title of this article anyhow. It is called of "black African descent" with excludes many in this article. The title really ought to reflect what this is, which is a list of Black players, not Black African players. 98.118.181.71 (talk) 02:00, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

And how many blacks do not originate from Africa? Maybe some South Americans and Australians. I doubt there has been any black Australians. 82.141.125.5 (talk) 13:16, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

It is only in the US that we are so inclined to be politically correct that we find it necessary to say African-American instead of Black especially considering that not all Black People can trace their heritage back to Africa. The term 'Afro-Canadian' is the silliest thing I have ever read and can only imagine it having been written by an American once again trying to hard not to be politically correct. In Canada they call people Black. If they're Canadian, they're called Black Canadians. The [seemingly made up] term 'Afro-Canadian' is not only technically incorrect in regards to where some of the players can trace their ancestry but it isn't the term Canadian [of any race] use to refer to black people. The page itself redirects to an article called "Black Canadians" because that's the term used to describe the group of people this list refers to. To avoid making americans look even more ignorant than we already are, please just say Black Canadian or Canadian [if your obsession to be politically correct - even at the expense of technical accuracy prevents you from saying "Black Canadian"] As the athlete's inclusion on the list implies they are Black [although incorrectly stating their ancestry can be traced to African] as was done with all of the other player nationalities [which were not prefixed with 'Afro-']. In that regard it might be worthwhile to remove the Afro- prefix from those Americans as once again their inclusion on the page implies they are Black and being citizens of the United States makes them simply 'Americans'.

Given the nationalities of many players is listed, it becomes even more obvious that many of them are NOT of African decent. If the purpose of the article is specifically in regards to those Black player who are Black and of African decent, it would only make sense to remove those who were not and have a new list [for those who were interested in learning about] Black Hockey Players. If that is the actual intent - just say Black Hockey Players and remove the references to Africa including Afro-American [which isn't even technically correct] and the completely made up [that could only have come from an American] 'Afro-Canadian'. DeziWright (talk) 18:03, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Italics

"Names in italics are players who have won the Stanley Cup"

Unless every single player on this list has won the Stanley Cup, maybe that line should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.101.74.164 (talk) 19:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Why all of them? It is there to tell the winners from the rest. 82.141.125.5 (talk) 13:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Devante Smith-Pelly

C'mon! Where is here?, he's with the Anaheim Ducks, I thought he would be in here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kolam22 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

RIDICULOUS ARTICLE!

How is a list of black hockey players necessary? Why don't I see a list of white basketball players anywhere? Delete this article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.97.50 (talk) 16:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is designed to provide information. There are numerous reasons why someone might be curious about Black Hockey Players [and or those of other races/nationalities/genders etc etc]. There is nothing wrong with presenting a group of people based on factual demographic information [although in that regard please see my earlier comment suggesting the removal of the word 'African' from the title and 'Afro-' prefixes from players of American and Canadian nationality.

If you are curious about which Basketball Players are White and there is not currently a page containing this information, I think there is a place where you can create suggestions for such pages. I don't understand why you feel those authors providing a list of hockey players meeting a specific demographic should be obligated to create other lists about other demographics in other sports.

In regards to your inquiry as to the necessity of a list of hockey players sharing a demographic, once could argue it isn't necessary to have any lists of anything about anything. However as Wikipedia is designed to provide information, it can only be assumed that at some point in time someone, somewhere for whatever reason was curious about which hockey players fit into this particular demographic and such a lists provides this factual information [except in regards to the ignorant inclusion of the term 'African' unless the page was specifically in regards to those players who were both Black and of African Decent, in which case the information provided is not correct].

My 8 year old cousin, who is bi-racial [am I allowed to say that - or is there a better word] was staying with me for awhile & being an avid hockey fan, introduced him to the sport and we watched a lot of games. I even took him to a Flyers Canadians game. During Warm-Ups, my cousin took a liking to PK Subban. At the time I thought it was Subban's personality & interaction [tossing pucks over the glass etc] with the fans that found my cousin fond of him. It wasn't until long after the game when I was looking for some PK Subban cards to give him , that I even remembered my cousin was bi racial and considered the possibility that was one of things he found intriguing. I then asked my cousin why he liked PK Subban more than the other players and his response was "Because He Looks Like Me". My mind, was so far from caring what skin color players the connection didn't even hit me until hours after the game. Following his "Because He Looks Like Me' reasoning for admiring PK Subban, my cousin then asked me what other hockey players were black. Having even peaked my own curiosity I searched wikipedia for such information and [at the time] did not even come across this list [perhaps because I wasn't looking for Black people specifically of African decent].

Whether or not this list was here at that time, my point is, I was looking for information to answer a question posed my an 8 year old. There is no reason why such information shouldn't be here. Is my 8 year cousin a racist because he admires a player that 'looks like him' and or for wanting to know about other black hockey players? Should this information not be available to him because no one bothered to take the time to make a completely unrelated list of white basketball players? Is he the only young child that ever had a curiosity like this? Should he be denied access to such compiled information because you find it offensive? Or because no one has yet made a list denoting hockey players of other races?

If race is such an offensive demographic to a population or set of people, why does the US Census continue to present information based using race as a demographic?

If I lived in Sweden and wanted to make a list of Swedish hockey players [assuming one didn't already exist] would I be required to also create lists of Finnish Hockey Players, Russian Hockey Players and for whatever reason German Basketball Players? Would I need to wait until someone else created such other lists before publishing the compiled list of factual information I was presenting?

In fact, couldn't the LACK of list of Black Hockey players be even more offensive than having one? I'd imagine some people could see the exclusion of such a list as Wikipedia's lack of acknowledgement of racial diversity in the NHL. And / or an unwillingness to educate fans & others about the vast amount of racial, ethnic, nationalities aspects of players. Isn't is MORE wrong to prevent young black hockey fans and/or aspiring players from learning about the people who may or may not have overcome obstacles and/or paved the way for their future? February is National Black History Month. An entire month the US designated for EVERYONE to learn about the accomplishments and achievements of Black People throughout history. Does this offend you to? That the US government singled out Black people to honor & educate people about? Or is a means to do just that - bring awareness to people of a specific race to the attention & educate everyone as to their accomplishments. Your insinuation that a list which provides information about Black People should be removed from a site such as wikipedia implies you don't feel that the public should be made aware that there are black hockey players and / or what their accomplishments / contributions to the sport are. You're demanding that information designed for the purpose of educating everyone about black athletes should be removed, hidden not made available for anyone to see or hear about.

I can't imagine anything MORE racist than the person who goes around trying to prevent access to articles designed to educate the general public about notable public figures / athletes that are black. Most racism stems from a LACK of knowledge / education about people of other races / cultures / backgrounds. One of the easiest ways to end racism is through education. Why would you possibly suggest removing an article designed to do just that? The reason ignorant racists make remarks about Black players in the NHL is because people like YOU want to prevent them from learning about who those players are. Go yell 'racism' to people posting hate speech on other website & leave those who are trying to fight racism through education, knowledge & information alone. DeziWright (talk) 19:00, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Untitled

Why is this listed as 'outdated'? How do changes to the title get made? The list contains black NHL players, it is much broader than players of Heritages specific to Africa or of African descent. Most of the players listed are not from African decent. They're just black NHL players. I don't know how to change the title or request a change be made or I would do it myself. 74.60.174.6 (talk) 19:12, 31 July 2015 (UTC) Jersey

Requested move 24 January 2016

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move per discussion.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:41, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

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List of National Hockey League players of black African descent → List of black NHL players – I'm taking two steps with this proposal in an attempt to simplify this long and awkward name. The first is a simplification of "National Hockey League" to "NHL." This would bring it more in line with most other NHL lists (see List of NHL players for a somewhat comprehensive list.) The second is a change of the phrase "of black African descent" to simply "black." While I understand that they aren't synonyms, as it is possible to be black and not have African descent (eg: Aboriginal Australians), I can't find any evidence that this would change the membership of the list at all. Furthermore, it seems that in Canada and the United States "black" is defined as "of Black African descent" so I don't see the need to be technical in the title. -- Tavix ^(talk) 22:41, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support I was going to propose this almost exactly. I was more leaning towards List of NHL players of African descent, but either of these would be an improvement. I think either non-African black people or non-black Africans would be such a rarity in the NHL. Are there any examples of either? Category:Ice hockey players by nationality shows four Algerians and a Moroccan, none of which came anywhere near the NHL. (See also Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 January 24#List of black ice hockey players for a discussion that brought this up.) --BDD (talk) 00:52, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support: I rather expect your average black would be surprised to find himself lumped in with Australian aboriginals: on what basis would such a categorization be made? That being said, the issue is moot, there not yet being a single Australian player making the NHL. "African," in this, is entirely superfluous. Ravenswing 03:23, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support; as per WP:PRECISION.  InsertCleverPhraseHere ^{InsertTalkHere}  03:08, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 26 November 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. QEDK (T ☕ C) 18:23, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

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List of black NHL players → List of NHL players of African descent – The reasoning behind it is very simple. The title assumes the One-drop rule and Hypodescent is accurate. Which is an insulting and offensive notion, if you know the racist history behind it. The lede should mirror this change to List of National Hockey League players with black and mixed with black ancestry. NFLjunkie22 (talk) 15:56, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. List of black _____ is the common article title (see Category:Lists of black people for more). Additionally, "African descent" is misleading, as there are plenty of white Africans. Additionally, most of the sources talk about this group as "black NHL players", so WP:COMMONNAME applies. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 18:20, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support i think. IMO this should be decided between black and mixed editors. To me black is synonymous with African American, but i can understand if a mixed race or (full) black individual would have hangups over this. if someone were to call Barack Obama white i'd laugh in their face. SWF88 (talk) 18:35, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose: 'African descent' is a vague term which as has already been noted is not synonymous with 'black'. Should we add Josef Boumedienne to the list? Although he is not black, his father is Algerian which is a country in Africa. The proposed move would change the scope and intent of the list. Furthermore, nobody uses the phrase 'of African descent' as a description, and I contend in most social situations the use of such terminology would be decried as having racist undertones, as it systematically suggests that a certain group of individuals are 'not from here'. As for the nominators claim that the current title assumes the one-drop rule I would argue the exact opposite: that the proposed title assumes we should list any individual on this list no matter how many generations back they may have had a relative from Africa, thereby attempting to separate them from the rest of society. Many people are unknowingly descended 1/32 or 1/64 from a black individual but may identify as white, Asian, or Latino (or any other race for that matter) and therefore do not fall under the scope of this list under its current title, but they would have to be included if we changed the parameters. Ebonelm (talk) 19:54, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

disagree with your notion. North Africans are included in the Middle Eastern or Arab diaspora, white africans in the European diaspora. You hold the the ignorant view that people with any visible African features get lumped into the black diaspora. NO we have our own identity. BTW latino isn't a homogeneous group racial group ether. You might want to read a bit before making more uneducated remarks. NFLjunkie22 (talk) 20:12, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

No group is homogeneous by definition, especially not groups based on an artificial social construct. That doesn't change that reliable sources talk about black NHL players as a group. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 22:37, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. I think this has been severely overthought. All that we need to do is include people in this list who are identified as black in reliable sources. Some of the other points made above by those opposing also are valid. 331dot (talk) 21:13, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose move. There has been no change since the last RM.  ONR  (talk)  23:21, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose as mentioned by Rob. In the media, they are all described as black, racist or not of which I make no call either way we follow what the sources say and WP:COMMONNAME and the common way of referring to this group of players is to say they are black. Not to mention there are Africans of all races, so the title would be inaccurate to the subject matter. While the one drop rule when used to discriminate is definitely racist, it is not incorrect to say that someone of mixed heritage is Black. They are both black and white for example. However, in terms of notability playing in the NHL, it is their black heritage that is notable and thus put them on the list. It is easy enough to note next to the players of mixed heritage that they are of mixed heritage so as to clarify, but being mixed does not negate the fact they are black, just like it does not negate they are white. (assuming those are the two races mixed) -DJSasso (talk) 14:18, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

See? this is the ignorance i'm fighting against. just because there are uneducated dumbasses in the media who would call every asians - chinese, or every latin american - mexican, doesn't make it right. don't normalize racism and stupidity. just because it doesn't sound as revolting as some racial epithets we've been conditioned to have a reaction to, it doesn't make it less wrong. how would you feel if as a white american (i'm assuming), if i'd start calling you ruskie and when you've gone tired of it to the point you find the ignorance offensive i'd counter, get over it! the media calls you ruskie, therefore you are. NO! it's not ignorant, racist white people and asians who get to decide what i identify as. NFLjunkie22 (talk) 19:07, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Except that race is a social concept, as such society (such as the media) determines which members of society belong to that group. It isn't a hard and fast rule as say citizenship is. Wikipedia doesn't try to right great wrongs. We just report what reliable sources report. If you want to change what society thinks about something, Wikipedia isn't the place to do it. We just report on what is and not what things should be. -DJSasso (talk) 19:24, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

great. another we're all human type BS comment. it might be a social concept or whatever you call it, but having a different phenotype does and did have consequences. I'm treated different than whites in the white community because i stick out AND i'm treated different in the black community, because I stick out. btw, this is not WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, i'm not making up the fact that i'm mixed or the concept of a mixed race person or identity, it's real -> Multiracial - > Pardo. calling a multiracial person, black is as incorrect as calling an american a citizen of the peoples republic of china (i brought this example because according to law, you can only be one) NFLjunkie22 (talk) 20:19, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't believe myself to be qualified to comment on ethnicity or race, but I am certain that the term used by reliable sources to describe what the list is about, is adequate for now.18abruce (talk) 15:34, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

then why bother making the comment? NFLjunkie22 (talk) 15:52, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Because, as I said, and others have tried to point out to you, the title is reflective of the sources. Please make an effort to discuss the sourcing material because there have been some changes, but not enough yet.18abruce (talk) 18:04, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

sourcing material? you mean the white writers writing about black and colored people the same way they did in the slavery era? they, just like the others in this discussion seem to be unaware or outright don't give a fuck about the legacy of the country's most racist period. as i tried to point out, even provided links, to other readers to make them understand on why it doesn't matter if an ignorant white person writes an ignorant article about multiracial and blacks. but the source!!! but the source!!!.. THE SOURCE IS WRONG!! EVEN ACCORDING TO THE CENSUS!! some of these sorry excuses for writers throw labels around like it's going out of fashion. One gem I came accross: Bi-racial Afro-Canadian ice hockey player Grant Fuhr was the first black hockey player to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame (in 2003). NFLjunkie22 (talk) 18:41, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

You seem to be speaking to greater societal issues than we can deal with here just on this little corner of the Internet. This isn't the forum to right great wrongs. We can only go with what the sources do. 331dot (talk) 20:45, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

here you come with that deal with it/ don't pay attention and it wont matter bullshit again. will you stop dismissing the racist ignorance?? i'm not just talking out of my ass. the one drop rule is RACIST! black blood was treated as a taint. so much so whites made discriminatory laws because of it and based on it. it's not some minor detail i'm making a big deal out off. if you don't believe me fine. then believe the damned census. if a writer makes a mistake and writes an ignorant article with false fact, doesn't mean we should post it on wiki. NFLjunkie22 (talk) 21:37, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not asking you to deal with anything, simply saying that this isn't the place to conduct the sort of battle you want to fight. If you have issues with how reliable sources report the races of people, you will need to speak to them. We only follow the sources. 331dot (talk) 21:58, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

what a weak cop out. like i said, if you don't believe me, believe the census classifications then. not these ignorant uneducated writers. in the census(es), multiracial is separate from black, therefore negating these glorified bloggers into not reliable sources. i'll make it as simple for you as possible, since you obviously don't want to think about it, just accept the ignorance. if the mathematicians in the scientific community accept 2+2 as 4, then we don't accept some morons half arsed piece full of mathematical mistakes that say 2+2 equals 5 and 4 at the same time as a reliable source. NFLjunkie22 (talk) 00:16, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

I have no way of imagining the position you are likely in, but you are not helping your case with this battleground mentality and poor language. Census categories is a legitimate argument, at least, though imperfect. Classifying people based on one source when other sources don't do so is problematic and a recipe to get into this sort of argument with every player listed. 331dot (talk) 01:30, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

i don't require you to understand my position, but understand my frustration with ignorance and dismissive attitudes. all we have to do is fact check. if i understand wiki policy correctly, adding players without proper sourcing based on the subjective eye test would be original research. isn't proper sourcing and fact checking what wiki admins are supposed to do? I'll do the work if you don't want to. heck i won't even force my own(correct) views on the page. if the player self identifies as black despite being of multiple races, i'll add him to the list. i could also make a separate list on the page featuring players titled nhl players with mixed with black ancestry NFLjunkie22 (talk) 02:03, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

• Delete (AfD) - I can honestly say I dislike the fact that we need such an article at all. We don't have one for Asians, we don't have one for Latinos or Hispanics, and we most definitely don't have one for Whites. Why? because we don't need one. Their skin colour is not what makes these people notable, so why are we shifting the focus onto an irrelevant aspect? especially when many of the players listed are either bi-racial or multi-racial. We do have articles for Latvians and Slovaks for some reason as well though. All of these players should already be listed under their names at List of NHL players under the correct alphabet. Do we really need to "segregate" blacks and part blacks from the whole group. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:45, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.