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Talk:Czech_Republic_men's_national_ice_hockey_team#Page_moveEdit

For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

There appears to be a consensus for a move. What do the rest of you think? GoodDay (talk) 21:05, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Petition to change the roll over for the NHL Transaction pagesEdit

I'm going to petition once more to change the roll over date for our NHL Transaction Pages. Currently we are using the Entry Draft as our roll over, but it is a pretty arbitrary marker for trades and transactions. My better proposal would be for the first day of Free Agency. 1) It is a consistent day, July 1, compared to the Draft which varies year to year (save for this year where Free Agency is July 13 due to the extended season from COVID). 2) Free Agency marks the roll over for the League's contracts - contracts end and new contracts begin, signing bonuses are paid out, ELC contracts slide, contract years tick over, salary cap restrictions officially updates, bonus overages carry, etc. May as well use the same date as the League, no? 3) We don't even feature the draft on the page..! It has it's own separate article. 4) Opening of Free Agency, challenged only by Deadline Day, is the marquee day, really, of the League, in terms of transactions. Signings, imports being made official, trades, retirements, first chance to offer sheet. It takes up like half the article. (Not that that truly matters, but it's importance is undeniable).–uncleben85 (talk) 02:16, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Tampa Bay LightningEdit

We could use some help with vandalism in this article. Deadman137 (talk) 03:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I protected it for the next two weeks, which should slow things down until the Finals are over at least. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:20, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Boston BruinsEdit

We might be having a problem in the 'captains' section, with Patrice Bergeron's tenure. GoodDay (talk) 22:45, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Conference trophies as player awardsEdit

An editor has been adding the Clarence S. Campbell Bowl and Prince of Wales Trophy to the Awards section in player articles, such as at Jack Johnson here: [1] - I suppose that if we include the Stanley Cup in such sections it follows that Conference titles would also get included, but seems odd to me to lump in team awards with personal ones. (I don't think this is the only editor doing it, just someone doing it now.) The style guide for player articles doesn't specify personal vs team awards. Feedback? Echoedmyron (talk) 10:37, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Team awards do not belong with individual accomplishments. Flibirigit (talk) 10:59, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Eeesh. And then we'll get divisional awards, and awards to teams with good community service, and divisional awards from when the players were in the minors, and ever more nonsense. No. Ravenswing 14:40, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
I have removed the offending line from the Jack Johnson (ice hockey) article, btw. PKT(alk) 15:02, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, all. When I have a chance I can work on removing other instances of this and point back to this discussion. But am I right in concluding based on the above (brief) discussion that Stanley Cups - as a team award vs an individual one - should also get excised from such sections? Because those usages are even more prevalent. For example, Sidney Crosby has both Conference trophies and Cups in his section, although his is titled "Honors and achievements" rather than "Awards" for whatever that's worth. Echoedmyron (talk) 10:32, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
@Echoedmyron: Removed it from Crosby's and other pages, because the same editor added it. If I remember correctly, there was a discussion about conference championships in BLPs in the past and the result was that it does not not belong in BLPs. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:15, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
And here is the discussion that I had in mind – Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Archive75#Conference trophies in player pages. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:41, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks, @Sabbatino:, I appreciate the help and the link to the prior discussion. Echoedmyron (talk) 22:35, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Agree with the removals, as those are team trophies. GoodDay (talk) 22:37, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Shea Weber's statusEdit

Not sure why, but many newbies & IPs keep insisting (via their edits) that Weber is a former player. AFAIK, Weber hasn't retired (yet) & was just traded to the Golden Knights. GoodDay (talk) 02:07, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Same thing happened with Brent Seabrook. Deadman137 (talk) 11:48, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Well ... they haven't submitted retirement paperwork to the league offices yet. But since when were we about parroting the NHL's technical status? The Webers, Seabrooks, Boychuks and Klefboms are never going to play again. In a number of cases they've publicly said so. We are tasked here to report fact, not the official POV (among other things, we refer to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, however much the Russian government hotly maintains they have done nothing of the sort).

And sheesh: if the player/s change their mind, then we just undo the "former" player tag. Elapsed time what, four seconds? Ravenswing 21:22, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Disagree; it's typical in sports to announce one's retirement. If a player hasn't announced his/her retirement, then he/she is not considered retired (and reliable sources will not refer to him/her as retired.) While it is very unlikely that Shea Weber actually comes off LTIR, he isn't retired until he announces it. 162 etc. (talk) 22:40, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
You mean YOU do not "consider" him retired. So stipulated, but so what? In any event, we're not talking about whether a player is listed as being "retired." The wording as set forth is "former," which is in fact accurate. The phrasing used in the Seabrook and Boychuk articles, just to name two, is "former professional ice hockey [player] under contract to ..." Ravenswing 23:11, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
If reliable sources refer to Shea Weber or others as a "former" player, then our article should follow suit. Can you cite such sources? 162 etc. (talk) 16:10, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Happy to oblige. [2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]. Ravenswing 16:30, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
This isn't as cut-and-dry as you seem to think. From your sources:
  • [16]: "Shea Weber is retired for all intents and purposes"
  • [17]: Drouin hearsay
  • [18] More Drouin hearsay
  • [19] "his career was probably over because of injuries"
  • [20] "quite likely Weber’s career is over"
Etc...
Note that nothing here says "former player Shea Weber" or "retired player Shea Weber." The only source I could find so far that says that is Wikipedia, and that's a problem. 162 etc. (talk) 16:40, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
"Hearsay?" Wikipedia does not operate off of the United States courtroom codes. I posted a small heap of items from reliable sources -- just as you requested -- attesting to the fact that Weber's not going to play again, including quotes from his teammates and his general manager. You should be well aware that players these days do not formally submit retirement papers until their contracts expire, because they still want to get paid. (Beyond that, if he DID formally retire, he'd be screwing both Montreal and his former Nashville team, both subject to cap recapture penalties.) This is arguing just for the sake of arguing. Ravenswing 22:03, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
(As a side note: Weber's retirement before, say, last season, would have kept Montreal from benefiting from another below annual average value contract year, which reduces Montreal's cap recapture penalty. Nashville's penalty is already locked in at ~$24.5 million. Weber's retirement just triggers when Nashville has to start charging the penalty to its salary cap, and over how many years: either the remaining length of the contract, or, with the new CBA capping the maximum annual charge to the contract's average annual value, for as many years necessary to repay the penalty. See [21] for some handy charts and discussion.) isaacl (talk) 22:49, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Whenever one person reports what another is saying, that's hearsay. Technically speaking, anything less than actually hearing a person say the words in your presence is hearsay. It's not an issue in itself for determining if a source is reliable—after all, a lot of sources we use are descriptions of what someone else said, including interview coverage. The actual question is whether or not a teammate's analysis of what he has heard is suitable as a source. I agree, though, we should follow the consensus of sources: if they call Weber a "former" player, then the Wikipedia article can do the same. Otherwise, just add a sentence saying that Weber is unlikely to ever play again, and cite it to the various sources saying this. isaacl (talk) 22:40, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Isaacl Ravenswing Exactly. Wikipedia follows what the sources say. It's fine in Weber's case to say that he is unlikely to play again, citing the above sources. But to call him retired is verging on WP:OR. 162 etc. (talk) 16:35, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Can we 'at least' wait until the beginning of the 2022–23 season, to see what Weber does? Before we consider using "former"? GoodDay (talk) 23:22, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Don Cherry page movedEdit

Don Cherry was recently moved to Don Cherry (hockey commentator). If disambiguation was necessary, it should have been moved to Don Cherry (ice hockey) as per WP:NCSP. Any thoughts?

I would agree that "(ice hockey)" is a better disambiguator. PKT(alk) 13:40, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Page move shouldn't of happened at all. He's the most recognised 'Don Cherry'. @Kkollaps: had no consensus to move it. GoodDay (talk) 15:02, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
I've submitted a revert request at WP:RMT. 162 etc. (talk) 22:48, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments. The above request was granted to revert the page move. Flibirigit (talk) 17:11, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Greater Toronto Hockey LeagueEdit

The article for Greater Toronto Hockey League contradicts itself. The introduction states it was founded by Fred Waghorne, whereas the body states it was founded by Frank Smith. Is anyone familiar with the league's history? Flibirigit (talk) 17:28, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

This article [22] states that the Beaches Hockey League was co-founded by 4 individuals; presumably Waghorne and Smith were two of them. 162 etc. (talk) 19:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

International stats and team placementEdit

Inspired by the discussion above about the Campbell TrophyBowl, I want to get some thoughts about the current standard for individual players' international stats. Apparently under the player pages format it calls for team placement to be noted here (so if the team won gold, silver, finished 13th, etc). Aside from that standard having been done up literally years ago (in 2013), I find that it is redundant for two reasons: like discussed about the Campbell TrophyBowl, team accomplishments are for teams, not individuals; and if a player won a medal, there's a solid medal infobox that is used for this explicit purpose (and is already used on nearly all articles). With that said I want to call for an update to the format and remove the result column, so it just lists: year, country, tournament, then stats. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:25, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Completely agree with the proposal. I always thought if this has been discussed. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:52, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Support. I haven't come across this one recently, but I agree and updating the player page format guideline is a good idea. Echoedmyron (talk) 15:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Go for it. PS - It's the Campbell 'Bowl' ;) GoodDay (talk) 19:07, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Good call, it's even written above like I said. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:04, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Don Cherry move proposal... againEdit

Please see Talk:Don Cherry and comment as you like. Flibirigit (talk) 16:51, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

NHL Entry DraftsEdit

Why is it that we don't include letter like Ä, Ö, Å, Ø, ẞ, Š etc in the player and team names in the articles about the drafts? --Cheers! Kilaseell - Message me! - 17:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Most of us in English Wikipedia don't have those characters on our keyboards......nor do we know when to use specially-accented letters. The Insert drop-down menu at the bottom of the window I'm typing in right now doesn't appear to have those letters, either. PKT(alk) 18:42, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
We don't use diacritics in NHL non-bio based articles. GoodDay (talk) 19:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
The sports media and other reliable sources in Canada and the U.S. that cover the NHL generally do not use these diacritics, so in a way we are complying with MOS:TIES here. All NHL articles are primarily in North American English. The general MOS:DIACRITICS guidelines do state that "Sometimes usage will be influenced by other guidelines, such as National varieties of English, which may lead to different choices in different articles". Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:20, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

2023 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships Coding issueEdit

Does anyone know how to fix the issue at 2023 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships? It is transcluding information from the Division II article, but it's bringing in more than it's supposed to, and creating a mess. I can't figure out how to fix that, so wanted to see if anyone here knows? Kaiser matias (talk) 20:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

IIHF: Czech Republic or CzechiaEdit

From what I've observed this year, the IIHF has chosen to recognise Czech national teams as being under the name Czechia. I don't know how to open up an RM (or multiple RMs) for this matter & so I'm going the RFC route. GoodDay (talk) 20:48, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

So, which should we use?

  • A) Czechia
  • B) Czech Republic

SurveyEdit

  • B. Czechia isn't English, Czech Republic is. Wikipedia has a convention for the Czech Republic and it should follow this convention across articles on the republic. This has already been discussed so many times on the country level and Czech Republic is the consensus: 2021, 2019, 2018, 2016, 2016 earlier. It's pointless to beat the same dead horse over and over again. --StellarNerd (talk) 21:29, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
  • B per StellarNerd. We should only use a divergent "sporting nationality" name when English-language sources strongly also do so.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  22:23, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
  • B, per StellarNerd. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:41, 29 June 2022 (UTC) (Summoned by bot)
  • A - Such sources are doing so, in the IIHF beginning in 2022. GoodDay (talk) 22:53, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
  • A Unless I am mistaken, we are not talking about the country, but the team. And when discussing what the team does at IIHF events, we should refer to the team as the IIHF does. Echoedmyron (talk) 02:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

DiscussionEdit

To clarify. We're discussing the name of the national ice hockey teams & not the country itself. Nobody's trying to get the page Czech Republic changed. GoodDay (talk) 02:11, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

The team represents a country. Wikipedia tries to keep a set of conventions across articles. Furthermore just because the IIHF does something doesn't mean English media does so. For instance BBC is reporting in May 2022: Great Britain beaten 5-1 by Czech Republic in opener. ESPN in May 2022: Team USA drops 'a tough one' in world hockey championship semifinal, will play Czech Republic. --StellarNerd (talk) 04:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
In your ESPN example, the headline may say "Czech Republic" but the URL actually says "Czechia", FWIW. Also, it refers to "Team USA" and not "the United States", so clearly we are able to make distinctions between national teams and the countries they represent. Echoedmyron (talk) 10:38, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
The URL says nothing, that's the bottom of the Barrel. The title of the ESPN piece is " Team USA drops 'a tough one' in world hockey championship semifinal, will play Czech Republic ". Then further down "Canada, which won the tournament last season, powered past Czech Republic 6-1 in the second semifinal.", and then "Team USA will meet Czech Republic in the third-place game Sunday.". All of these refer to the Czech Republic team, not the country. --StellarNerd (talk) 17:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
If the majority of ice hockey sources are using Czechia, for international tournaments? So should we. GoodDay (talk) 19:49, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
The same rationale that led to the country's name consensus can be used for the adoption of Czechia with regards to the team if it is the case that most English-language sources have adopted the use of Czechia when referring to the national team.
With that in mind, with regards to the team's name, the IIHF's move to adopt Czechia as the name has caught on with some ice hockey sources (The Hockey News, NHL.com). But quite a few sources have also continued to use Czech Republic (NBC, hockeydb). I feel like this proposal might be a "too soon" kind of situation. The IIHF has only recently adopted Czechia, and there hasn't been enough time yet to determine whether or not that change will spread to other hockey publications/sources (while I do see it trending towards adoption, we'd get a better gauge of things if we looked at this further down the line). Leventio (talk) 19:18, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Ice hockey infoboxesEdit

Why do ice hockey infoboxes look different than other sports infoboxes (samples of NBA, NFL, MLB)? Some of the main differences I see is that the hockey infoboxes do not have years next to the list of teams and there is no "awards section". Is there a good reason for these, or other differences? Natg 19 (talk) 22:24, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

We just don't want in them, what's in the infoboxes of those other sports. GoodDay (talk) 02:11, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Okay...but why don't you want of them? That response doesn't answer my question at all. Natg 19 (talk) 07:27, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Stanley Cup Finals roster formatsEdit

I thought I'd go through all of our SCF articles and note the different formats used for team rosters. I prefer the more modern style we have been using in the recent past with appearances in the Finals. I would support a project to bring the rest of the tables into the same unified format.

  • Simple list format: 1893-1918, 1920-1972
  • Simple table format: 1973-1985, 1987, 2009
  • Appearance table format: 1919 (outdated format), 1986, 1988-2001, 2002 (outdated format), 2003-2004, 2006 (outdated format), 2007, 2008 (outdated format), 2010-2022

I would think starting with updating the outdated format tables in the third list would be the easiest to tackle. Then converting the simple tables to the appearance tables, and then adding it to all of the missing articles in the first group. Jmj713 (talk) 19:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)