Talk:Gang of Barbarians

French Judicial Philosophy

Article says presumption of innocence applies, but under French law, it is instead presumption of guilt.ThuranX 18:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Is that black humour? Of course presumption of innocence is the rule in France like in all countries in the world.11:15, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

see : "But the Paris public prosecutor, Jean-Claude Marin, told Parisian Jewish radio on Thursday that "no element of the current investigation could link this murder to an anti-Semitic declaration or action." The umbrella group of French Jewish secular organizations, CRIF, issued a statement Friday calling on the Jewish community "to keep calm, cautious and wait for developments in the investigation." see [1]. Moez 14:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• I've imported some of this into the article. Sandstein 22:21, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

modification 1 from main article : islam in the intro

[2]. The link between Islam and this sordid affair is only superficial. It is being used by some politician and activists in France for a political agenda, as the presidential elections are close in France. de Villier for instance is communicating using the "Islam menace to Europe" credo, which has a certain impact on some xenophobic people. He is basically conveting suffrage from the Front national voters. Neither the french prime minister, Sarkozy, nor le ministre des sceaux (justice) nor the prosecutor directly in touch with the file have implied Islam. Indeed, the only direct link to Islam is the testimony of the uncle to a newspaper who said he heard Koran recitation over the phone when negotiating the ransom. Ilan's parent have not made this testimony, nor did the police. the link with Islam is therefore tenuous and should not be presented in the introduction. The sentence "already marked by intense public controversy about the role of Muslim immigrants in its society" is just giving a background the way it is written now and is clearly a POV. Moez 01:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC).

I totally agree. I changed it yesterday and removed "Muslim" from that last setence but it was changed back.TonyStarks 09:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

If the religion of the murderers (Islam) is not relevant, then surely the religion of the victim (Jewish) is not relevant either. Perhaps all religious references or anything that could be interpreted as providing ethnic dimension to this affair should be removed from this article for the function of political correctness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.32.8 (talk) 21:01, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

If this was a murder committed by Christians it would not be an issue to mention their religion as a motive. However since they were Muslim it has been deemed "offensive" and "unmentionable." Give me a break. There are multiple mentions of religion being a motive in this crime (i.e. comments made about passages of the Qur'an being mentioned while the victim was being tortured).Theseus1776 (talk) 21:44, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Modification 2 : variation of the amount of the ransom as a link to Islam

[3]. Now this idea is really farfetched! The simplest explanation is that Ilan's family was not able to pay the exhorbitant lump money, more than half a million dollar. They simply are of modest origin. The antisemitism comes here : the gang said that, according to them, all the jews are wealthy and therefore they had money. This stupid stereotype led them to kidnap a jew, thinking he was rich. Moreover, the police was assisting them during the contact with the kidnapper, and their goal was to catch the kidnapper. All this does not make this allegation serious. Moez 01:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

source for the last edit

[4] : most on the info removed can be found here, for exemple : [5]. The family lawer noted the cynicism of Fofana.
I can't find the article(s) where I read the rest. I'll search my browser history tonignt.
Edit (couldn't wait): for the computer guy "moko" beeing the mastermind as well as Zigo beeing the torturer : [6]

You really should read this : [7]. Unbelievable! Moez ^talk 12:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

about the good conditions of detention in the Ivory Coast jail

Please see this article, where we learn that Fofana is eating a plate of fish in the compagny of his girlfriend, both wearing expensive sport uniform and visibly very decontracted. (in French) link

Uh...

How can one of the criminals deny having committed the crime and "show no remorse?" Wouldn't he have to admit to the crime before not showing remorse became a factor at all? I've never robbed a bank, and I show no remorse over it. --MattShepherd 21:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Fofana admits being involved in the kidnapping, not the murder. Moez ^talk 22:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Got another "Uh..." I think either somebody translated incorrectly, or somebody with a bias had a little fun. Under heading "2010 Trial", it is stated "Samir Aït Abdelmalek (15 years, persecution asked for 20 years) and Jean Christophe Soumbou (18 years, persecution asked for 20 years)" "Persecution" is what happens when people unjustly harass, torment, etc. "Prosecution" is the act of legally administering justice according to law. It is also the legal term for the lawyers arguing for the State. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.96.146 (talk) 16:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Possible religious motivation for the crime per the article

Since there is distinct and discrete discussion and evidence that the crime may have been religiously (Islam) motivated, Category:Islam and antisemitism is appropriate regardless if the act was performed by laypeople. -- Avi 02:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Just because someone claims to use Islam as a motive, does not mean the crime has to do with Islam itself. Islam is a religion, defined by scholarly interpretations of its scriptures and other texts. The faith applies to 1.2 billion people worldwide and not just a small gang in France. Characterizing the murder as relating to "Islam" is grossly unfair.Bless sins 18:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't tell me that just because the family thought they heard the Quran on a phone call, means that the Islamic faith is involved. Given the fact that a recitation of the Quran is easily obtainable from the internet, any Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Jew can play a reciation of the Quran while making threats. THe same goes for "Islamic fundamentalist" literature. ALso, might I remind you that the category you are inserting is "Islam and anti-Semitism", not "Islamic fundamentalism and anti-Semitism".Bless sins 20:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Please read the article; the idea that the motive was religious has gained support even from the Prime Minister of France himself. Since this reason is as supported as any other, the category is properly applied. You may not like it, but it does not change the facts. -- Avi 02:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Avi. We don't need to determine whether Islam as such was involved with the crime itself. Rather, what counts is that the crime was widely perceived by the public to have been (partly) motivated by religiously motivated antisemitism, and had implications for the Muslim/Jewish relationship as a whole. Thus the category is accurate, even if the public impression should turn out be false. If so, this should be explained in the article, with reference to reliable sources. Sandstein 07:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Are there reliable sources that specifically say that antisemitism encouraged by Islam was a motive?Bless sins 17:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Who or what is "Islam" that you are asking if it was encouraged by this entity? If Islam means the religion as whole, then yes. If you are asking for a particular Sura or Hadith that says "Tortue and Kill Ilan Halimi" then you can answer your own question. -- Avi 21:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I am asking of serious evidence. The recitation of Quran over a phone call is not serious evidence of Islam being involved (because the Quran can be downloaded very easily off the internet). Please provide me with sources that suggest both a) the motivation behind the crime was antisemitism, and b) that antisemitism is from Islam (eg. the Quran).Bless sins 00:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Also note, that just because the crime was committed by a Muslim, doesn't make it "Islamic" in any manner.Bless sins 00:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

Please see WP:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided. It says:

"Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research"."

Now "Reliable sources" leads to Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/examples#Use_of_electronic_or_online_sources. The preceding links declares "Widely acknowledged extremist organizations or individuals, whether of a political, religious, racist, or other character, should be used only as primary sources; that is, they should only be used in articles about those organizations or individuals and their activities. Even then they should be used with caution."

Thus extremist sources are NOT to be used.Bless sins 04:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Hm. Faith Freedom International is clearly an organisation with a POV, but they seem to be reproducing content from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency here, which is presumably more of a reliable source. Still, what does this news report contribute to the article? If it does contribute something, shouldn't it be cited as an inline source? Better yet, how about we just rewrite the whole article and bring it up to date, instead of arguing about one link? The article is still based on media reporting just after the fact. By now, the killers should have been sentenced etc., and there should be many more reliable sources on what happened. Sandstein 06:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem at all linking to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency. Atleast they don't describe us Muslims as "evil".Bless sins 06:41, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Neither does Faith Freedom International. You've just scored an own goal. Beit Or 13:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

People, this is not a football match, and we are not counting goals. We are trying to decide whether this JTA report contributes anything of substance to the article. If it does, presumably a link to some other site carrying it can be found. Sandstein 14:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Beit or, check this out. Good faith leads me to believe that the users are trying to list the interview because it carries substance (and not because they want to direct readers to a Muslim-hating site). I haven't seen anyone actually opposing the interview itself. So yes, we should list the interview if we can find a more civilized website.Bless sins 23:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

While a more direct site is undoubtedly preferable, are you claiming that the interview is fraudulent, and that is why you want it removed? Are you claiming that it is factually inaccurate, and that is why you want it removed? -- Avi 00:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm saying that extremist sites can't be trusted to give factual information.Bless sins 01:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Moot point

I have cited the interview directly to the JTA source, so it should be acceptable to everyone. -- Avi 00:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

That was much appreciated.Bless sins 01:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Photograph

Wikipedia: Non-free content states that the following is unacceptable:

"A photo from a press agency (e.g. AP), unless the photo itself is the subject of sourced commentary in the article. This applies mostly to contemporary press photos and not necessarily to historical archives of press photos."

Hence I think the AFP-photo of Ilan Halimi should be removed. Do you agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suladna (talk • contribs) 19:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This is an exception, as there is no longer a way to get a free use photo, as the subject is dead. -- Avi (talk) 16:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Lead

Why is the identification of kidnappers by their religion so important to be included in the lead? It appears that the kidnappers were not all of the same religion, thus the religion factor seems a bit non-notable. It's acceptable to mention the religion in the body.Bless sins (talk) 20:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Because the crime was religiously motivated. -- Avi (talk) 16:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The crime was basically motivated by greed. It is unclear whether anti-semitism from the leader of the gang and one or two of his henchmen (from a non-muslim backgrond) were an additional aggravating circumstance;Saciperere (talk) 15:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Serious BLP issues

As hideous and heinous as this crime was, we cannot violate wikipedia policies and guidelines. Other wikimedia projects may not be used as sources. If anything, the sources supporting the statements in the other projects' articles need to be brought here. Furthermore, listing the names of people without bringing any source at all is another BLP violation. Bring sources, or leave it blank. -- Avi (talk) 17:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Agree entirely; thanks for removing the poorly sourced stuff. I drafted the article (not the content that you removed) when this was big news in Europe, but never got around to cleaning it up now that the case is over.  Sandstein  17:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

muslims?

Christophe, Jean-Christophe, Gilles, Cédric, Franco, Francis, Tifenn, Audrey, Fabrice, Jérémy, Alexandra etc ... ARE NOT MUSLIM NAMES BUT CHRISTIAN NAMES. 20 members of the gang are Christian, 6 or 7 Muslim ! you can verify this on the French page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.7.124.43 (talk) 13:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

French wikipedia is not a reliable source vis-a-vis English wikipedia. -- Avi (talk) 16:46, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I am French and well remember (from reliable sources like Le Monde) that the lawyer for the Halimi family stated that there were no Coran readings on the phone and that judicial authorities had to issue a statement to say the body had NOT been mutilated, while the Wikipedia article says the contrary. Can somebody check the source for these rumours ? And I don't know why the Roumi case is mentioned here either, it was quite a different happening, by different people, in the same suburb, among lost youngsters, including the victim, childhood friends all, falling out on a drug dealing quarrel. Saciperere (talk) 15:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Pro-Palestinian == terroist

I was not aware that having "pro-Palestinian" literature would be considered a motive for engaging in terrorist activity. "The police reportedly found "Islamic fundamentalist and pro-Palestinian literature" during one arrest. However, the suspects are not known extremists, a police intelligence official said." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.207.234 (talk) 00:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, all the police found was an appeal for a Palestinian charity in the appartment of the parents of one suspect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.112.73.103 (talk) 07:51, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Title

The title of this article leads me to believe that it is translated directly from the French... "Gang of Barbarians" or "Gang of Barbarians case" would probably be a more appropriate title. Paris1127 (talk) 16:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 4 external links on The Affair of the Gang of Barbarians. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140810104951/http://www.lexpress.fr/info/infojour/reuters.asp?id=15467&2138 to http://www.lexpress.fr/info/infojour/reuters.asp?id=15467&2138
• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140808033541/http://ejpress.org/article/37916 to http://ejpress.org/article/37916
• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140808035850/http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/societe/20060221.OBS7499.html to http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/societe/20060221.OBS7499.html
• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120716182234/http://www.liberation.fr/page.php/?Article=361548 to http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=361548

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 14:59, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on The Affair of the Gang of Barbarians. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140810104951/http://www.lexpress.fr/info/infojour/reuters.asp?id=15467&2138 to http://www.lexpress.fr/info/infojour/reuters.asp?id=15467&2138

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 05:39, 10 March 2016 (UTC)