Talk:Dutch–Portuguese War

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Thanks

Thanks CmdrObot, any corrections are appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MiguelNS (talk • contribs)

Intro

The article needs an introduction... --HJV 02:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Propaganda

This is a propaganda tract, not a historical article. Beyond indonesia, dutch attempts to take over portuguese posessions were a failure.--Bistor92 02:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Bistor92, I believe the sentence you mention is the following: "In all, and also because the Dutch were kept busy with their expansion in Indonesia, the conquests made at the expense of the Portuguese were modest: some Indonesian possessions and a few cities and fortresses in the Arabian sea." This is not propaganda! This only intends to explain that as strong as the Dutch were, they did not quickly or easily overcome the Portuguese India State forces! In fact, with the exception of Malaca, the main Portuguese cities such as Ormuz, Goa, Bombay and Macau remained in Portuguese possession... Further ahead I explain how successful the Dutch campaign was nonetheless: "The most important blow to the Portuguese east empire and the culmination of the war would be the conquest of Malacca in 1641 (...)" MiguelNS

I agree with you. But the article seems pro-dutch to me.--Bistor92 05:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, if it seems pro-Dutch then I can only say thank you for acknowledging my objectivity. I should add that it is intended to be impartial. But of course any further contributions will be appreciated. MiguelNS

Ahah. What a joke. This article might be better named as "the overseas dutch adventures". It is tottaly written under a Dutch perspective, scarce on America's and Africa's conflicts, and omits the fact that between 1580-1640 Portugal was under Spanish rule, which deprived Portugal from resources to maintain and defend its possessions. Who cares any way. Wikimerdia at its best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.240.65.156 (talk) 03:50, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

"an armed conflict involving Dutch forces, in the form of the Dutch East India Company and the Dutch West India Company, against the Portuguese Empire. Beginning in 1588, the conflict primarily involved the Dutch companies invading Portuguese colonies in the Americas, Africa, India and the Far East." The Dutch companies were founded in 1602 and 1621, so for those first fourteen years, who was fighting on behalf of the United Provinces? This introduction needs to be reworded. JesseRafe 17:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you mean Jesse. But when I say that the Dutch companies waged war on the Portuguese possessions since 1588, what I mean is that since the Spanish Armada, the Dutch fleet (which was largely private even if not initially in the form of the VOC and WIC) had been fighting the Portuguese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MiguelNS (talk • contribs)

factual error?

"The Dutch were hopeful of some degree of success, since in 1588 the English, with Dutch aid, had been able to defeat the Spanish Armada and with it the backbone of the Iberian fleet — the oceangoing galleons and naus used in support of trade in West Indies silver and Indian spices.1"

To my knowledge the Spanish Armada mainly consisted of its mediterran units and only very few oceangoing vcessels. No parts of the High Seas Fleet were recalled for the invasion so that at the battle only 12 Spanish galeons were present in battle. So as the mainstay of the Spanish fleets were always busy on the tradelanes and never invested in this military endevour the backbone of their tradefleets actual were not seriously affected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mangalore (talk • contribs)

Well Mangalore, in fact the Spanish navy at the time had plenty of ocean going galleons (especially after the anexation of Portugal).It is true that a great portion of the fleet was made up of mediterranean galleys, but remember Castile, Navarra and Portugal had many ocean-going vessels.There were certainly more than 12 galleons present in 1588! In the occupation of Azores alone, around 10 were used !!!...The problems of the "felicissima" derived rather from an excess of tonage, poor planing (wrong munitions for wide variety of cannons) and bad leadership.MiguelNS

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Broken backbone?

Who says the defeat of the Spanish Armada broke the naval backbone of the Iberian powers? Not even the article cited makes such a claim. How many of the Armada's ships were Portuguese - and more importantly how many were lost? Was Portugal so deficient in resources that it couldn't make those losses up in the period 1589-1602, the period before this war really began. By the way, what year did the Dutch manage to monopolise trade with Japan? It would be also interesting to have a few hints as how and why they were able to exclude the Portuguese.

Dear Anonymous

I say the defeat of the Spanish Armada broke the backbone of the Iberian nations, because it did! I won't go to too much length here, because the article does not concern one battle but an entire war spawning for decades. Just look at it this way, never again was the Iberian Monarchy able to muster a similar fighting force, and many of the crucial ocean going galleons were lost.

About a forth or fifth of the armada's ships were Portuguese, but most importantly almost half of the galleons were Portuguese.

That's a good question, I don't know whether Portugal tried to make up for its losses..

The best date I've got for you is 1639. Spain and Portugal were expelled, only the Dutch remained.

The how and why are well known, but not relevant for this article...

MiguelNS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.147.192 (talk) 01:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Well there's the answer. Let us say a quarter of the 130 Armada ships, roughly 32 ships, were Portuguese. You say that half the galleons were Portuguese, so that makes 11 galleons of the Armada's 22. If half the 32 Portuguese ships were lost, then Portugal lost 16 ships. I believe most of the galleons returned home, but let's say, for arguments sake, that 6 of the Portuguese galleons (and none of the Spanish) were lost. This means Portugal lost 6 galleons and 10 other merchant vessels, for a total of 16. One would expect a sea-borne empire to make up such losses in the following 12 years. The fact that Portugal was able to sustain its fight for its territories overseas against the Dutch decades later shows that its "naval backbone" was far from "broken".

Who won in Africa

While it is quite clear the Portuguese were the victors in America, and the Dutch in Asia, who won in Africa? It currently says the Portuguese did, probably because of their success in Angola but the Dutch captured the Portuguese forts on the Gold Coast and would hold onto them until 1872. Wouldn't it be a draw then? Thoughts?-Kieran4 (talk) 01:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Source needed

A source is needed that talks about one single long Luso-Dutch war spanning colonies in South America, Africa and Asia. As yet I have not been able to find one. This page is OR/SYNTH without one. Srnec (talk) 14:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

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Motives

The article says that the main motive is financing the Dutch revolt. It doen not gave any sources and I think this motives is anachronistis and incorrect. The Dutch trading companies were founded with the explicit goal of making profit for the shareholders and harming the enemy. This is not the same as making a profit for the state with an eye on the finance of the revolt. Scafloc (talk) 23:41, 20 January 2017 (UTC) Scafloc (talk) 23:41, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

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"Sugar war" section contains irrelevant information

The "Sugar war" section says "In 1621 the Geoctroyeerde Westindische Compagnie (Authorised West India Company or WIC) was created to take control of the sugar trade and colonise America (the New Netherland project). The Company benefited from a large investment in capital, drawing on the enthusiasm of the best financiers and capitalists of the Republic, such as Isaac de Pinto, by origin a Portuguese Jew. " Why is Isaac de Pinto mentioned if he's born 100 years after the creation of the company and decades after the Sugar war was over? He has nothing to do with the war whatsoever.

Santa Catarina

The description of the Santa Catarina under 'Casus belli' is at variance with the page linked to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Catarina_(ship)

Here, it says that the SC was a galleon and that the sale proceeds doubled the VOC's capital. There, it's a carrack and the sale proceeds increased the VOC's capital by 50%. This should be made consistent.

(I don't know what's correct either way.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.176.136 (talk) 00:27, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Someone add an "Aftermath" headline

That would be nice

Ygglow (talk) 18:33, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

VOC and WOC arent military forces?

They aren't military forces, they are traders coming for those sweet sweet spices (and murdering lots of Indians and Americans (as in the 2 continents)). We were brutal, but anyways, the most military thing the VOC and WOC did was fight... Against slaves... Anyways, please continue this conversation, I will probably not return as I'm not a chad and go conversate on Wikipedia daily. Farwell great people! 82.169.236.182 (talk) 22:04, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Several expeditions such as the one to chile in 1643 consisted of separate wic United Province and voc units with different commanders under an overall commander I would say that makes them in the same vain of the enterprising Wallenstein of the same period. A private man/organization making war for profit more than expansion. Joeykev (talk) 16:56, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Start and end dates

The Casus belli of the conflict was in 1603 and the peace treaty in 1661. It is true that conflict took place beyond those dates, but shouldn't we use the "official" dates instead of 1598-1663? DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 23:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)