Talk:Book of Common Prayer (Unitarian)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 02:13, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

( Comment or view )

( Article history links:

• James Freeman (clergyman)
• Book of Common Prayer (Unitarian)

)

Portrait of James Freeman by Gilbert Stuart

• ... that in 1785, at age 24, James Freeman (pictured) convinced King's Chapel to adopt his revised prayer book, contributing to it becoming the first Unitarian congregation in the United States? Source: Greenwood, Francis William Pitt (1833). A History of King's Chapel, in Boston, the First Episcopal Church in New England: Comprising Notices of the Introduction of Episcopacy Into the Northern Colonies. Boston: Carter, Hendee & Company. p. 135 – via Google Books.; "King's Chapel". The Pluralism Project. Harvard University. 17 September 2014. Retrieved 8 February 2023.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Werner Pinzner; Template:Did you know nominations/Bellwood station (Chicago Aurora and Elgin Railroad)
  • Comment: QPQs to come

5x expanded by Pbritti (talk). Self-nominated at 21:42, 8 February 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/James Freeman (clergyman); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: - Not done
Overall: Nice work on these two articles Pbritti. I can approve this nomination after you do two QPQs. Epicgenius (talk) 14:55, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for you patience on the QPQs, Epicgenius. They are now done with one pending comment from the nominator. If you have a moment, I would appreciate you maybe looking at the below ALT, as I'm worried that the "it" in the original hook is grammatically unsound. I prefer the original–it spares us the double "his" and is contextually self-evident–but I figured I should at least mention it.

• ALT1: ... that in 1785, at age 24, James Freeman (pictured) convinced his congregation to adopt his revised prayer book, contributing to King's Chapel becoming the first Unitarian congregation in the United States?

Thank you! ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:17, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I think ALT1 is better, so I'll approve that hook. I'll strike ALT0, because I agree with you - "it" can refer to the book instead of the chapel. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Capitalization of theological movements

@Pbritti: I am wondering why you reverted my decapitalization of terms referring to theological movements such as "subordinationist". MOS:ISMCAPS provides,

Names of organized religions (as well as officially recognized sects), whether as a noun or an adjective, and their adherents start with a capital letter. Unofficial movements, ideologies or philosophies within religions are generally not capitalized unless derived from a proper name. For example, Islam, Christianity, Catholic, Pentecostal, and Calvinist are capitalized, while evangelicalism and fundamentalism are not. ...

Doctrines, ideologies, philosophies, theologies, theories, movements, methods, processes, systems or "schools" of thought and practice, and fields of academic study or professional practice are not capitalized, unless the name derives from a proper name. ... Doctrinal topics, canonical religious ideas, and procedural systems that may be traditionally capitalized within a faith or field are given in lower case in Wikipedia, such as a virgin birth, original sin, transubstantiation, and method acting.

Graham (talk) 06:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Graham11: I would emphasize the word "generally" in this MOS, as reliable sourcing generally trumps MOS guidelines. In this case "Subordinationism" is both capitalized and not capitalized in reliable (secular) academic sources, so I am will to defer to the lowercase. However, in the other parts restored, secondary sources explicitly and exclusively provide the capitalizations as they are given, so I see no reason to impose a contradictory capitalization scheme for the sake of MOS. ~ Pbritti (talk) 07:06, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Also, in the title of the 1785 prayer book, it should be noted that the T in "The Use" is cited to a secondary source (which I've verified against primary sourcing) and is something of a longstanding idiosyncrasy within Anglican prayer book nomenclature. I could go into the reason it came to be that way, but suffice to say some guy convinced Oxford to publish almost a whole book on the subject back in the '40s. ~ Pbritti (talk) 07:11, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Schwede66 (talk) 09:22, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Painting of Clarke by Charles Jervas, c. 1929-30

• ... that rector Samuel Clark's alterations to the 1662 Book of Common Prayer would be the basis of the Unitarian church's first Book of Common Prayer? Source: Peaston, A.E. (1 January 1959). "The Revision of the Prayer Book by Dr. Samuel Clarke". Transactions of the Unitarian Historical Society. 12 (1): 27 – via ProQuest.
  https://www.proquest.com/openview/42ec81a562ff925b6440049f14429a52/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=1820202
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Benjamin Tompson

Created by MyCatIsAChonk (talk). Self-nominated at 00:11, 12 February 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Book of Common Prayer (Unitarian); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Article was not created by MyCatIsAChonk, fact not supported in the text, and the article was already nominated and approved at Template:Did you know nominations/James Freeman (clergyman). ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:58, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Book of Common Prayer (Unitarian)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 06:16, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Happy to review the article. AM

Review comments

Lead section

The lead needs to be expanded (probably to double its size), as at present it does not provide an adequate summary of the article. Expanded. Please feel free to suggest further expansion or revision. ~ Pbritti (talk) It looks much improved. AM Introduce Samuel Clarke (e.g. 'the English philosopher Samuel Clarke'). Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) Book of Common Prayer – the title of the article doesn't match the bold text, which should be amended. Opted to just go without the bolding; this is a complex topic without a consistent name despite academic agreement on the topic's scope. ~ Pbritti (talk) Link Boston, in the text and the caption. Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) These Unitarian forms influenced other prayer book revision efforts – consider amending this to something like ‘These influenced other attempts to revise the prayer book of 1662’, to improve the prose. Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) Link King's Chapel in the caption. Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) The last sentence needs copy editing to improve the English. Rewritten, so I'll need a recheck on that. ~ Pbritti (talk) More comments to follow. AM

1 History

Link Samuel Clarke, and other people named within captions who have their own article; liturgy; manuscript; Poland (with the correct article, probably Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth), and perhaps clarify for readers that at this time the country’s border were different to those of the modern Polish state. Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) Unlink worship (common word). Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) Queen Caroline, wife of King George II – amend to something like ‘Caroline, the queen consort of George II’ (linking 'queen consort'). Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) After Caroline became queen in 1727 – this sounds as if they became friends before she became queen, unlike what is stated in the previous sentence. They were friends prior to George II's accession, so I rewrote the preceding sentence. ~ Pbritti (talk) then-Archbishop of Canterbury William Wake - ‘William Wake, the Archbishop of Canterbury’? Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) become the Archbishop of Canterbury – ‘become archbishop’ sounds better imo. I disagree, as specifying the Canterbury see is important to distinguish from the similarly prestigious office of the Archbishop of York. ~ Pbritti (talk) Understood. AM John Disney should be properly introduced, he was more than a brother-in-law. Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) Add a comma after at Catterick. Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) Unitarian worship - the full stop goes outside the quotation mark. Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) Unitarianism developed in Europe, India, Jamaica, Japan, Canada, Nigeria, and South Africa. Is information available about any of these parts of the world? Unfortunately, academic literature on the use of the Unitarian prayer book revisions in these regions appears nonexistent. The latest comprehensive bibliography on the subject (and I mean hilariously comprehensive) comes from 2006 and suggests no literature on BCP-specific Unitarian liturgies in these other regions. ~ Pbritti (talk) Understood, thanks for letting me know. AM The section seems to stop after reaching the first decades of the 19th century (USA) and the 1770s (Britain). It should be possible to include more about the development or use of the PB from then onwards (see for instance Michael Ledger-Lomas’s article "Unitarians and the Book of Common Prayer in Nineteenth-Century Britain". This particular essay has some great content which I'll add as you seem to disagree with me about encyclopedic relevance; second opinion should take precedence on this. However, some of the essay's coverage seems to run counter to how Westerfield-Tucker, Japser, Peaston, Cuming and Scovel all engaged with Unitarian prayer books: Ledger-Lomas attends great detail to some privately printed revisions that were never used by a congregations that I might address in a generalist way in the influence section. I'll build upon that using both this essay and Peaston (trying to avoid his somewhat disparaging tone). This change will be the most time-intensive aspect of the review, so I apologize if it's one of the last things you get to review. More replies to come; your comments have been massively constructive and are deeply appreciated! ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:03, 12 August 2023 (UTC) Thanks for the above, please let me know when you are done on this comment. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:46, 13 August 2023 (UTC) Please see the paragraph preceding the subsection "Freeman and the King's Chapel". I also expanded coverage under "Contents". ~ Pbritti (talk) 06:01, 16 August 2023 (UTC) Many thanks, it looks good. AM

1.1 Freeman and the King's Chapel

I would link 'decree', nor royal decree. Imo this 850-word section (in particular, much of the first and fourth paragraphs) should be edited to remove the wealth of background information that is not directly related to the book. . I've cut down that section by a bit but I'd like you to give it a peak to give me a sense of where and how much more I should pull out. Thank you! ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:03, 13 August 2023 (UTC) Much better imo. A few tweaks... Samuel Clarke." - the full stop needs to be moved to the other side of the quote marks. Ditto prayers." Link egalitarianism . "minister" replace "priest" and "ordinance" replace "sacrament" - consider having the words in italics and without quotation marks. thirty hymns - '30 hymns'? Amitchell125 (talk) 16:32, 13 August 2023 (UTC) Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) 06:04, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

2 Contents

For readers unfamiliar with the Book of Common Prayer, there needs to be something that explains in some detail its contents, style, and language. Do you have a preference on length for this addition? My feeling is three sentence is plenty sufficient. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:12, 13 August 2023 (UTC) I'm not sure until I see it. the BCP is a dense little book. Let's try three sentences. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:34, 13 August 2023 (UTC) Ok, there's a paragraph that aims to fulfill that need. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC) Looks sorted. AM

2.1 Clarke
The buildings images do not help aid the understanding of the text in this subsection (see MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE). Being purely decorative, they should be removed. Link doxology where it first appears. Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:58, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

2.3 King's Chapel
catechism is a duplicate link. Done. ~ Pbritti (talk)

3 Influence

• peace in our time links to a disambiguation page.
  • Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:58, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
• N This part of the article appears to be a continuation of the History section, covering previously discussed historical periods...

... but I think that's OK. AM

• Is the book used at all these days?
• Is there a contemporary version for modern worshippers, or is the book now regarded as outdated (as is the case in the Church of England)?
  • I think both of the above comments are addressed in the final paragraph of the "Freeman and the King's Chapel liturgy" subsection of "History" and in the lead. I can reiterate this point under influence if you think its necessary, but their modern (post-1850) influence is not as evident within the sources I've seen. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Understood. AM

6.1 Citations
You need to be consistent in your citation style—a number of the page numbers are in the Secondary sources section, and need to be moved here. I think I caught every instance of that issue. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

6.2 Primary sources
Primary sources are not used to cite the text.

7 Further reading

Lindsey, and the editions of the Prayer Book are primary sources, and so don’t belong within this section. I would add a new External links section for them. – via Google Books is unnecessary. Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) (Not GA) It’s not usual to describe a book that is listed in a Further reading, e.g. A history of King's Chapel with coverage of the congregation's prayer book. I think that it's actually normative to provide these descriptions per Wikipedia:Further reading#Presentation. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:34, 12 August 2023 (UTC) That's fine, it's just that not many GA articles bother with it. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:49, 13 August 2023 (UTC) I did not know that. Will conform future writing to that standard. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:29, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

On hold

• It may be that the list of issues in this review represents a good deal of work if they are all to be addressed, or alternatively you will be able to address them easily.

I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 20 August to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. The article will need to be failed if the review cannot be completed in this time, please let me know what you think.. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:25, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Beginning fixes; expect them completed by Wednesday UTC. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry to bother, Amitchell125, but will you be available the next couple days if I have questions about some of your notes? Most are extremely straightforward (thank you for that!) but I see a couple comments I'll want to ask about when I have more time. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:06, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I should be able to get back to you reasonably promptly at any time over the next week. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 16:10, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I believe I've addressed every key consideration from the initial review but have noticed a few minor errors here and there and tidied them up. Hoping to have this finished by Friday! ~ Pbritti (talk) 06:05, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Passing

Passing the article now, great work! Amitchell125 (talk) 08:01, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.