Talk:Bassem Tamimi

Recent edits

I'm not sure I agree that yesterday's edits were a massive BLP violation, but I do agree that they were needlessly tendentious. For a controversial article like this, it's helpful to post on the talk page before or after major changes, and to use clearer edit summaries than "repetition". A few changes that struck me as quite obviously intended to push a particular POV:

• deletion of mention that the European Union protested his arrest, from reliable source
• deletion of mention of health problems that al-Tamimi had as a result of his confinement, from reliable source
• changing description of the Nabi Salih protest to say that the protesters attack and the soldiers "respond", which isn't supported by the given sources: AP describes both sides as equally culpable, while the Guardian mentions the soldiers' use of force without mentioning provocation by protesters. Reverted this to more neutral phrasing.
• repeated use of "claims" for anyone in the article that the editor doesn't like, whereas figures the editor likes get to simply "say" things. WP:WTA is a good guideline to review for cases like this: "Said, stated, described, wrote, and according to are almost always neutral and accurate. Extra care is needed with more loaded terms ... To write that someone claimed or asserted something can call their statement's credibility into question, by emphasizing any potential contradiction or implying a disregard for evidence.".

Some other changes I thought were good ones--mentioning the long arrest record in the lead, and rephrasing to allow more clearly for the possibility that al-Tamimi states that he advocates nonviolence but could espouse another ideology in private, as stated by the prosecutor. I've worked to incorporate a more neutral version of these.

This article has been checked over for POV before--I posted to both the Israel and Palestine WikiProjects at its creation looking for any more sources or POVs that should be included, and it was independently read over by uninvolved user Ironholds (who, if I recall right, promoted me to autoreviewer status for it). I by no means want to suggest that it's perfect, though, and will be happy to discuss any further changes people feel are necessary. I know there's been some more coverage of Tamimi since this was originally written, including a New York Times magazine profile, I think. So some of this could probably use updating/expansion anyway. Looking forward to discussing. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:20, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

POV

An editor raised some new POV complaints, which I reverted as the editor also removed a valid reference from the article, changed one of the sentences to a sentence fragment, and added some unneeded detail about which Amnesty International spokesperson was speaking. I'd be interested to hear the rationale beyond the changes, though, if you're interested in discussing further. Cheers, Khazar2 (talk) 11:35, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

non-existent washington post ref

the washpo ref doesn't seem to go anywhere. it was replaced with two other refs which same the same info about him. what is wrong with that, khazer? amensty didn't say it, rather, a person affiliated with amnesty sort of said it, so better to use the exact quote rather than make an assumption, no? and what is he known for (in the info box)? why try to hide it? Soosim (talk) 12:46, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Before responding to your questions, I'd like to point you to a core Wikipedia policy, assuming good faith. I'm not trying to hide things and I'm not trying to make things up, and we'll be able to collaborate much more easily if you drop the accusatory tone. Like you, I'm trying to make this article into the best summary of reliable sources possible.

Anyway, the Washington Post article wasn't "nonexistent", and I'm not sure why you would say that. It's just a dead link. You can learn about Wikipedia's policy on dead links at WP:DEADREF and WP:V, among other sources, but the short version is that you're generally not supposed to delete them, especially those that are used elsewhere in the article, as this one was.

As for "Amnesty didn't say it", I think the idea that one of their spokeswomen went rogue and wasn't speaking for the group is a little silly. In any case, spending five seconds on Google, it's immediately verifiable that Amnesty has called him a prisoner of conscience per any number of reliable sources, including the Times of Israel: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], etc.

I see two problems with writing "inciting violence" in the infobox. First, he was arrested for four charges: sending youths to throw stones, holding a march without a permit, incitement, and perverting the course of justice. It doesn't seem to me practical to list all four in the infobox, and it doesn't seem neutral to me to choose only one (especially one for which he was found not guilty). Second, whether he incited violence is hotly contended, making it better to address the issue in the article where nuance and statements from both sides can be included. Stating that he was arrested in 2011, on the other hand, is clearly neutral and directs the reader below for more information. Does that make sense? Let me know your thoughts, and thanks for being willing to engage. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:09, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

sorry for not getting your name right, khazar. and if i sounded accustatory, then i apologize. try AGF.....

washpo - i went to the washpo itself, searched there, and no, nothing. so, i found replacement RS for it. ok?

amnesty didn't call him that, rather, a mid-level staffer, not a spokesperson. it is not silly. so, i quoted her directly since she said 'we believe' and not 'he is'. always best to be exact rather than try to work around it.

arrested in 2011 is too bland, and says nothing at all. in fact, now reading 'land right activism' that too sounds too bland. should be more clear what his activism is, no? Soosim (talk) 13:43, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, no worries. As for the PoC part, as I listed above, any number of newspapers, both Israeli and non-Israeli, have said flatly that al-Tamimi has been called a prisoner of conscience by Amnesty International. You can substitute any of those sources you like--Associated Press, the Times of Israel, The New York Times--but I think we should follow the way our reliable sources summarize this. (If you don't consider any of those reliable sources, maybe we can appeal at WP:RS/N.)

As for the infobox, I think my preference is that it be bland, honestly, for a controversial case like this one. I believe WP:BLP has a subpolicy that charges on which someone is found not guilty (like the "incitement" charge) should not be included in the infobox. (I may have created this misapprehension myself with a serious error that I've now fixed. I can't apologize enough for that; I'm really embarrassed that I made this mistake.) I'm very glad to hear any alternatives you have to propose, though. I'm not totally happy with its current phrasing myself. What would you suggest? -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:00, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I added bullet points and more detail to the infobox. Let me know if this is acceptable to you. It looks a little clunky and overdetailed to me, but there may just be no way to avoid that. -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:10, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I hope you'll find this helpful and not annoying, but I've also expanded the article a bit from a new NYT profile I've been meaning to add in.[6] (What's funny is that after having not worked on this article for a year, I had expanding it on my to do list for today before I ever saw your edit: no joke! So you had good timing. ) The main changes are to add in BT's views on stone-throwing, addressed explicitly here; update info on the Nov 2012 arrests; add a bit more about family involvement in the conflict (sister and brother-IL's deaths, cousin's killing of an Israeli settler); and expand the lead to better summarize the article's contents. Let me know what you think. Thanks again for your input. -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:44, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Citation needed tag in lead

I'm technically at 1RR thanks to fixing a typo yesterday, but I wanted to note here in the meantime that the "citation needed" tag in the lead section seems to me awfully silly. WP:LEAD doesn't require sourcing in the lead for anything but quotes and controversial claims, which this doesn't seem to be. This fact clearly sourced in the body and can be located in literally seconds. Cheers, -- Khazar2 15:52, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Increasingly silly removal of content

Soosim has now deleted a source for the statement "Al-Tamimi was arrested during the protest, which was described as an illegal demonstration by Israeli police", calling it insufficiently sourced. (Soosim also deleted an Amnesty International quotation without discussion--sneaky sneaky!) Anyway, this statement appears to be supported by three reliable sources, all clearly linked in that section:

• "Witnesses said that one of those arrested was Palestinian activist Bassem Tamimi, who was recently convicted by an Israeli military court for protesting illegally and dispatching stone throwers." -- Agence France-Presse
• "Tamimi was arrested on October 24 following a non-violent demonstration in Sha’ar Benjamin settlement north of Ramallah. More than 100 protesters gathered in a supermarket to call for an end to the occupation and a boycott of all Israeli products." -- Amnesty International
• "This past October, the popular resistance movement began to shift tactics, trying to break the routine of weekly demonstrations. They blocked a settler road west of Ramallah, and the following week staged a protest inside an Israeli-owned supermarket in the settlement industrial zone of Shaar Binyamin. Bassem was arrested outside the market — soldiers grabbed at Nariman and dragged Bassem off when he stepped forward to put his arms around her." -- The New York Times

I've therefore restored it. -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:41, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Aaaannnd it was changed again before I could even complete my comment. I guess I'll come back tomorrow to fix the wording, but there's really no ambiguity here per the sources, as reading the rest of the paragraph and/or ten seconds of Googling would reveal. Glad to discuss further if anyone's interested; I feel like if this article is going to continue to be controversial (and I have no idea why it's suddenly on everyone's radar), we should start making use of the talk page more. -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:49, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I edit conflicted with your revert. The removal of the AFP source was certainly inconsistent with policy and removing the Amnesty info is difficult to understand from a policy perspective. I made a minor change to the wording to more precisely reflect the source. Yes, I'm sure this article is going to continue to be controversial. Since it is a BLP, and if edits degrade the article, it may be worth posting it at WP:BLP/N and WP:IPCOLL to make sure as it's watched by as many people as possible. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:17, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll probably take the "according to witnesses" phrase back out tomorrow and add on the New York Times and Amnesty citations for additional proof if that's okay with you; it seems quite unambiguous that he was arrested that day taking the sources in toto. And I'll keep that in mind about WP:BLP/N, since this has had some issues the past two months. What's odd is that it was so stable for the first year of its creation. Hopefully getting the Good Article blob will bring some gravitas to it, too! Anyway, your attention is appreciated. -- Khazar2 (talk) 19:24, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I guess the NYT source makes the "according to" attribution redundant so it's fine by me. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:31, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

amnesty quote - sorry. that was not my intent. not sneaky or otherwise. as for that article, it does not say he was arrested. it is not RS for this. and since you have other RS for it, no reason to include something controversial like "witnesses said". Soosim (talk) 06:13, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Soosim, you've been active on this article for more than a week now. Why haven't you taken the time to just read it and some of its sources? The "problems" you're finding are things that can be fixed in moments if you were aware of the basic facts of Bassem al-Tamimi's case. If you're interested in writing about Tamimi, why not read not read about him first? Doesn't it seem like that would be easier? Simply glancing at the other sentences in that section make it clear that a variety of reliable sources have reported that arrest. Secondly, engaging on the talk page when you make these changes would be likewise helpful. Anyway, glad we resolved this nonissue. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:56, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I have read his case. I will edit accordingly and according to wiki rules. thanks! Soosim (talk) 14:28, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Good, I appreciate your finally taking the time to do so. It'll be a big help! -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bassem al-Tamimi/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: QatarStarsLeague (talk · contribs) 20:24, 20 May 2013 (UTC) I shall review this article. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 20:24, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll look forward to your thoughts. Cheers, -- Khazar2 (talk) 21:27, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Lead

Excellent.

Infobox

Fine.

Background

"Al-Tamimi was ten weeks old at the time of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank in June 1967 and hid with his mother in a cave during the conflict." Please wikilink the appropriate sections of the Six-Day War.

 Done -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

"Also a grassroots activist, he organized weekly demonstrations to protest the seizure of the village's well by the nearby Israeli settlement of Halamish, established in 1977." If you mean his mother was too, please state this.

Clarified this. -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Excellent section.

March 2011 arrest and trial

Superb section. What I will say is that if you have recorded reactions from any other countries/entities, please include them.

Unfortunately, no, only the European Union quotation. It's possible some other Middle Eastern nations made comment, but I haven't found reference to this anywhere. (I'm linguistically limited to only English and French coverage, though, not Hebrew or Arabic.) -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

This is fine, I simply wondered. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 02:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

October 2012 arrest

"Bassem was released in early 2013." Just so that a reader is clear, please place this sentence at the end of the prior paragraph.

 Done -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

All else is good.

Personal life

This section is fine

Conclusion

I salute both your efforts and justifiable enthusiasm pertaining to this article. Excellent job! Once the outstanding issues are addressed, I will pass this article. Congratulations! QatarStarsLeague (talk) 17:43, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the time and the helpful suggestions. I think I've addressed your concerns, but just let me know if I missed anything or you see anything else. Cheers, -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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Violation of NPOV

This article reads like a hagiography of the man. I tried editing to fix this, but all the edits were reverted regardless of content. I would like to fix this article in the following ways.

• Mention association with Fatah.
• Mention activism of family and frequent clashes between his children and the IDF.
• Removal of his personal opinions on Mahatma Gandhi.
• Better wording in some places.
• Addition of some citation-needed tags.
• etc.

Some of this can be found in the page history. OtterAM (talk) 20:57, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

User:OtterAM For a start, could you please stop adding citation needed to the lead, when it is referred further down the article. Please read WP:LEAD, Huldra (talk) 21:09, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Also, about the above points, please suggest each one you want to make, number them if you like, Huldra (talk) 21:11, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

@Huldra: The lead is slightly different from the rest of the article. For example, there are a few places in the article stating that he has organized weekly demonstrations in the past, but the line in the lead is written in the present tense. Second, it's necessary to rely on SYNTH to come up with the 12+ arrests. I don't doubt this second one, but a reference that actually states this would be useful.

I gave a bulleted list of the points above. If you would prefer an enumerated list, you can change it yourself. OtterAM (talk) 21:17, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

@Huldra: Are you OK with mentioning Fatah? Are you OK with mention of interaction between his children and the IDF? There already is one mention of his son being arrested. Is that the incident you were referring to, or something else? If so, please provide a reference in your comment below. OtterAM (talk) 21:19, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Ok, lets start:

1. Mention association with Fatah, Sources for this, please.
2. Mention activism of family and frequent clashes between his children and the IDF. The previous version was completely unacceptable. Mentions his children's "attack" on soldiers, without mentioning the arrest their little brother?
3. Removal of his personal opinions on Mahatma Gandhi. Why?
4. Better wording in some places. Which?
5. Addition of some citation-needed tags. Which?

We can start with the beginning. Huldra (talk) 21:34, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Oh, and if you disagree with the lead, the way forward is to update the lead according to sources, not just leave a lot of CN around, Huldra (talk) 21:37, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

@Huldra: Items:

• I already provided the source for for Fatah in the edits you reverted. It's the Hass source from the article.
• Give me a reference for the arrest of the "little brother" and I'll include it too.
• The Gandhi stuff is not relevant to the article.
• I've done a bit of improvement in wording already, assuming that that was noncontroversial.

OtterAM (talk) 21:39, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

known for

Now: known for

• grassroots activism
• 2012 conviction for sending stone-throwers and marching without a permit

May be, in 2012-2013 he was known for conviction for sending stone-throwers and marching without a permit. But in 2018 the only ascertained fact is "conviction". It seems, there is no certainty about "sending stone-throwers".

So, in 2018 he is known for

• grassroots activism
• in 2013 Amnesty International designated him a prisoner of conscience
• European Union describing him as a human rights defender

May be, in January 2018 the 4th (or the 1st) fact to "known for" is "a defender by means Avaaz of his arrested 16-year daughter Ahed". As for me, only today morning I have known about him due to Avaaz.

— Yuriy Dzyаdyk (t•c), 10:02, 26 January 2018 (UTC).

No lack of sources for stone throwing. bbc nyt.Icewhiz (talk) 11:38, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Those sources may be OK or not, but that is not what he is known for. So to be removed. OTOH, I propose to add "Father of Ahed Tamimi". Also, the "grassroots activism" should be expanded mentioning protesting against Israeli occupation. - DePiep (talk) 14:29, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

He is primarily known for the jail time he received for organizing stone throwing - which led to various bodies recognizing him. Icewhiz (talk) 21:11, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

He is primarily known for grassroots activism against Israeli theft of Palestinian land and water. Huldra (talk) 22:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

re Icewhiz: no, that is not what he is known for. For example, how many of the current 32 references mention that as a title? Even worse, and a simple check: that conviction is only a consequence from the actual things he is known for (IOW, judgement is only a side issue wrt his activism). - DePiep (talk) 23:23, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

I would argue that being jailed for organizing protests and stone throwing led to the Amnesty designation of prisoner of conscience (for sitting in jail) and being described as a human rights defenders by the EU (both in the infobox, both sourced to news on his trial and conviction). There are many activists out there - Tamimi has received greater attention. Certainly this is not the sole thing he is known for - but it is an important bio point, which had led to increased recognition and coverage.Icewhiz (talk) 23:30, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

• @Icewhiz, DePiep, יניב הורון, and Huldra: Where do we stand here. This discussion is getting stale and seemed to have reached a resolution so I removed the tag. Tags are not badges of shame. It was reverted with the explanation of no consensus. If that is true, then there is no consensus for the tag. Editors who believe it is non-neutral should then use other methods to change the article (RFC, dispute resolution etc). AIRcorn (talk) 19:07, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

re Aircorn tag removal correct, and well described here wrt the consensus. I'd have to look at details again to see if some points still need attention. - DePiep (talk) 20:39, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Recent edit

I removed the allegations by Michael Oren with this edit. Also please see discussion at

• Talk:Ahed_Tamimi#Undue_BLP_content
• Talk:Ahed_Tamimi#Sources

Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:52, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes I am concerned. So, the Oren statement is sourced OK. It is a statement by a deputy minister, involving a Knesset commission, making explicit political statements and conclusions about this family. From this, we would not even need to add any "explanation", or "context": the Oren statement (and its origin) can stand alone (introduced like: "Isreali governmentt did ... &tc."). Now instead of linking to other long and meandering talks, could you point out (argue) here, why this non-complicated Oren statement should be removed from this article? -DePiep (talk) 23:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I think these two linked talks are greatly muddying the waters. -DePiep (talk) 23:27, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

And I removed them...with some doubt. LOL, if Oren wants to appear as a clown in the eyes of the world, I am tempted to let him...but really, it is just too stupid. We don't need a link to flat earthers when we describe this worlds geology, nor do we need a link to every conspiracy theory wrt this BLP. Huldra (talk) 21:51, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand FRINGE. Editor opinion or opinions of polemic outlets (and certainly many rejected Oren's remarks - but not all) are not a factor. What is a factor is the degree of coverage received. In this case, this has received very wide coverage, with the coverage focused on Tamimi, and we are supposed to gife DUE weight according to the coverage each aspect received - not our opinions of the merits of the claim. Notme that Tamimi has seen fit to respond at great length (which also rdceived significant coverage - after this was initially added) - which further increases theweight of Oren's remark and subsequent response by Tamimi.Icewhiz (talk) 22:09, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

re Huldra (ec) None of your six personal opinions here (plus your es) is relevant. Also, your using of "them" (plural) does not look like you are into the issue at hand. Fact is that a government official stated this, per RS. So it should be in. - DePiep (talk) 22:19, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

I think the issue lied more in how the paragraph was constructed. At the Ahed article, I reinserted Oren's opinion in a compromise text because, unfortunately, we need to accept there are people who are willing to sink this low to attack a Palestinian (not an imported American or European) girl. However, I also offered a highly insightful quote by Ben Ehrenreich; so, as Huldra pointed out, readers understand just how absurd this "theory" is.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 23:15, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Quite. I cannot stress enough how well known this family is...both to activists, and of course to the Israeli authorities. And have been, for over 10 years. Which makes the Oren allegation so completely ludicrous. Ben Ehrenreich knows this well, as he has spent time in Nabu Saleh. Huldra (talk) 23:48, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

The family is mainly known from the videos that started some 7 years ago. Merits of Oren's stmts aside (he himself has said this was inconclusive - he did not make an assertion of fact) the statement of a Knesset subcomittee investigation was widely covered. I will work tomorrow on a revised text here that will be more focused on Tamimi's response.Icewhiz (talk) 00:13, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Oren statement

I'm not convinced that this material is valuable, even as rewritten: [7]. It's still not about Tamimi's personal life as the content deals with the allegations by Oren, so it relates more to Tamimi's activism, rather than "personal life". If this incident is still remembered in a few months, then maybe. But wikipedia is not a newspaper, so not every news cycle needs to be reflected, especially in a BLP.

In any case, if this material is being considered for retention, it would be a good idea to include the response by the family's lawyer:

• Attorney Gaby Lasky is representing Ahed, her mother, Nuriman, and Nur in the current legal proceedings and knows the family for many years. “I started working with them years ago. I once represented the father and the mother.”

• She said the report on the Knesset probe made her feel “shame and worry. Worry, because the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee is an important Knesset committee, which is supposed to ensure the security of the state and not deal with outlandish conspiracy theories. And shame that an MK, today a deputy minister who is responsible for diplomacy, is revealed to be a kind of racist who can’t accept that a Palestinian who doesn’t wear a galabiya can be real.

It could be paraphrased as follows:

• The family's lawyer, attorney Gaby Lasky, dismissed the allegations as an "outlandish conspiracy theory" and described Oren as having been "revealed to be a kind of racist who can’t accept that a Palestinian who doesn’t wear a galabiya (jellabiya) can be real".

Source: "'How Was Such a Fool Your U.S. Ambassador?' Tamimi Family Mocks Michael Oren's Secret Probe Into Whether They're Real Palestinians", Haaretz. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:29, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

I think this will be relevant looking forward - and we definitely see wide coverage of this. As for whether this should be in "personal life" or a different section - I don't have any strong feelings - however if this is moved - then the rest of the post-2015 (which is not personal) should be moved (e.g. Ahed, something in 2015). As for Lasky - she shouldn't be described as "just" a lawyer - she's a high-profile activist (she headed Peace Now in the past) and an active Meretz politician (on the national list, but not high enough to get in yet - she is seventh on the list, Meretz got five seats (+ one resignation as of now - so she's next in line to go in, I believe), she represents Meretz in the Tel-Aviv city council) - and if you insert her, it might be grounds for more opinions on the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Icewhiz (talk • contribs)

.....well, recall how many WP:RS reported on the allegations that Obama had been born in Kenya? There must have been whole woods chopped down, just to create enough paper to print those stories...fronted by a guy who is presently much better known than Oren. And still....when you to the Barack Obama page, it isn't even mentioned. Huldra (talk) 20:16, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Irrelevant. This is a statement by a government official, and reported by a RS. -DePiep (talk) 03:13, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I removed the material; I'm preserving it here by providing this link. Even in the revised form, it's still not suitable, IMO. BLPs should not be repositories of conspiracy-theory-of-the-day type of material. Even Haaretz in their reporting on it do not appear to take Oren too seriously, asking Oren if he realised that it all sounded like a conspiracy theory (or something to this effect: [8]). K.e.coffman (talk) 02:47, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

"not suitable, IMO" you say - that's your POV then. It is not about conspiracy, it is about a government official saying this. -DePiep (talk) 03:13, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Oren issued a statement about a committee meeting that may or may not have happened two years prior. Haaretz was unable to independently confirm that such an investigation indeed took place and what it's conclusions were, per the article that I linked. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:26, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Again: it is a politician saying this while in government function. That means it is part of government policy making & thinking. If it is "conspiracy" as you suggest, that's even worse: "conspiracy" is in govt policy thinking & doing. -DePiep (talk) 03:38, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Then I would like to understand from Icewhiz what they mean by if you insert [Lasky], it might be grounds for more opinions on the matter -- who else has propagated this conspiracy theory? K.e.coffman (talk) 04:05, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

This is not a conspiracy theory. Haaretz not being able to confirm that a sealed and confidential hearing of the subcommitee (all meeitng of this particular very prestigious subcommitee are sealed) does not mean much - their conclusion was that it might have happened (they themselves noted that MKs often skip meetings - and this is indeed common - many meetings in all Knesset commitees (if there is no political meat to be gained) are with the commitee head with 0-2 additional MKs (and a host of external guests that give testimony). The connection of Pallywood to the Tamimis is widely claimed (for years) - by most mainstream pro-Israelis who have commented on their videos. Claiming they might (Oren did not say the definite) be unrelated actors is less common - however this subject has been widely commented on in the past week and conntinues to be commented on.Icewhiz (talk) 05:12, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 5 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to the requested title, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 02:54, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

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Bassem al-Tamimi → Bassem Tamimi – A significant majority of English news coverage uses Tamimi without the al-(the) prefix which is used in Arabic. I believe the subject himself also uses this in English. Also note the subject's daughter is at Ahed Tamimi, without the al- Icewhiz (talk) 15:13, 5 March 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Shadow007 (talk) 05:15, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

• Support. Case is well made. Andrewa (talk) 04:52, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
• Support: most English-language sources appear to use the name without the prefix: gBooks preview. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:04, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Not convinced that that 'significant majority of English news coverage' should guide us. It is not their profession, may be even the opposite (oversimplifying). It should be translated by proper romanization of Arabic. "Also note the daughter ... without the al-": clear example of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS: if this were an argument, the opposite is an argument too: Ahed's name should be changed. So this nullifies the point. Arenn't there any RS wrt this/such 'transcription'? - DePiep (talk) 09:06, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

  @DePiep: I thought a self-search would be quite convincing - however here are some sources. In two English pieces penned by the subject are authored as "Bassem Tamimi" - Newsweek, Haaretz. He is reported as "Bassem Tamimi" in BBC, New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian, Telegraph, CNN, NPR, NBC, and quite a few more. Searching for "Bassem al-Tamimi" leads to various non-English results and: Middle East Eye (not a RS), al-Arabiya (in a caption. The wife and daughter in text do not have an al-), Daily Sabah (which mixes between Tamimi and al-Tamimi - e.g. Ahed appears with both forms), The National (which is consistent with al-Tamimi throughout), Liberation News, PNN. It seems to me that all or almost all mainstream English sources (US, UK, Australia, and New Zealand) use Tamimi without an al- prefix. Transcription from Arabic to English is not a consistent "thing" - it varies by region and personal preference (or just randomness) - however if a subject prefers a certain transliteration (and most Englishs speaking RSes use it) - why not use it ourselves as the primary? (the al- should be mentioned as the pronounced Arabic, IMHO).Icewhiz (talk) 14:46, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

  That is completely missing my point. I said English language newspapers and magazines are not a RS for this transcription/Romanisation. They might just as well parrot each other, or pick their own transcription arbitrarily. As such, your list is no more than external !vote tallying. Also, strange that here you list the Newsweek and Haaretz articles by Bassam al-Tamimi himself (again, transcription may be guided by style the paper's overall style guide & policy), while they are not in the article for article's content. Sort of empty cherry picking.

What I asked for is transcription by a professional translating source. These RS's are not RS for their translation capabilities, they are RS for content reporting. Also, my otherstuff argument still stands. -DePiep (talk) 12:12, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

I think that articles by Bassam Tamimi himself, signed as Bassam Tamimi, penned by himself for the news organizations are an indication for what name he uses, himself, in English (and respecting the subject by using the name form he himself uses seems DUE - which is why I tried to locate such sources). I fail to see how a source being or not being presently in the article is relevant regarding the common name of the subject. As for "external !vote tallying" - if "Bassem Tamimi" is the WP:COMMONNAME - it is what it is. What sources do you have to support "Bassem al-Tamimi"?Icewhiz (talk) 13:07, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

• Support: most sources definitely use the "Bassem Tamimi" name, Huldra (talk) 21:22, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tags

@Icewhiz, DePiep, יניב הורון, and Huldra: Where do we stand here. This discussion is getting stale and seemed to have reached a resolution so I removed the tag. Tags are not badges of shame. It was reverted with the explanation of no consensus. If that is true, then there is no consensus for the tag. Editors who believe it is non-neutral should then use other methods to change the article (RFC, dispute resolution etc). AIRcorn (talk) 19:07, 4 April 2018 (UTC) @K.e.coffman: as well. AIRcorn (talk) 19:10, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Tags should not be removed as long as the article's neutrality is disputed. I toned down a few points. Can we mention he is associated with Fatah?[9]Icewhiz (talk) 19:24, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Then some tags would never be removed, which is not the point of tagging (see WP:WTRMT point 6). That is why we have rfcs and the like. I am not personally interested in the article, I am just cleaning up tags from Good Articles. If you can come to some consensus that everyone is happy with, that would be the best solution. AIRcorn (talk) 19:28, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Activism 2013-present - Ben Caspit Article Quotation

This part should be either changed or removed: "Prominent Israeli columnist Ben Caspit wrote, “in the case of the girls, we should exact a price at some other opportunity, in the dark, without witnesses and cameras”."

Reason: The translation is incorrect and maliciously misleading. Ben Caspit in his original article wrote the following:

במקרה של הנערות, עדיף שהמעצר יתבצע במועד אחר, בלילה, כפי שצה"ל יודע לבצע מעצרים בעייתיים. הזירה תהיה נקיה, לא יהיו מצלמות או פרובוקטורים, האירוע לא יתדרדר ולא יהיה בו פוטנציאל דליק. סוף מעשה במחשבה תחילה.

(This is also linked by the site which is linked currently to support it)

Which is translated to:

"In the case of the girls, it is preferred that the arrest will be done at another time, at night, as the IDF knows to do problematic arrests. The scene will be clear, there will be no cameras or provocateurs, the arrest won't worsen and there will be no flammable potential to it. Think Before You Act(it is said differently in Hebrew then in English)"

There is no term of "exact price" in the original text, which is misleading.

Itay889 (talk) 21:25, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

User:Bolter21: would you care to take a look at the Hebrew source here, and check if it is translated correctly? Huldra (talk) 22:23, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Itay889 is right here and his translation is correct. What Ben Caspit says is simply that it would be best to execute such arrest at night in order not to complicate matters with provocations.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:13, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I just removed it, Huldra (talk) 21:07, 4 October 2019 (UTC)