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African American Jews

@Etonmessisthebest: I looked at the source, but didn't find a percentage for African American Jews. Your link to African Hebrew Israelites of Jerusalem is problematic (and therefore controversial), because a special religious community with only some thousand members is not representative for the African American diaspora in Israel. --Rsk6400 (talk) 12:44, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

If you go to table, scroll to right, it clearly says African Americans: Jewish 1%. You or another editor could double check. I don’t think it is controversial because this is what the sidebar links to in the African American diaspora section for the Israel link. Also you removed the various edits I made including the one where I aligned this article with the sidebar diaspora where I added the listings for a number of diasporas that were represented in the sidebar but not in the article including Nova Scotia and the continent of Africa in general, etc.Etonmessisthebest (talk) 17:08, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

No, the table says for Black and Jewish, "< 1%", meaning "less than one per cent". No, I didn't revert your second edit. Nova Scotia is still there, as is African Americans in Africa. Regarding the Israel link: I also removed it from the templates, for the same reason. Regarding minor edits, please read WP:ME. --Rsk6400 (talk) 17:52, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Not a valid reason to revert other editors work because of minor technicalities WP:IAR Robjwev (talk) 01:27, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Robjwev: The difference between "< 1 %" and "1 %" is no "minor technicality", but is equal to the difference between significance and insignificance, at least with regard to what should be mentioned here and what not. --Rsk6400 (talk) 05:12, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Robjwev, I agree with you that it is a minor technicality and appreciate what you have to say. I will restore my edits, but I will add a < for the 1%. Also, as there is not yet an article for the general African American community in Israel, I think the article I added should be there for now. I will specify the article is for the Hebrew Israelites who are still a community of African American origin. I hope that you will not revert my work yet again.Etonmessisthebest (talk) 12:25, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Etonmessisthebest: "Less than 1 %" may mean "zero". If you look at the table in the referenced source, you will see more table cells having "< 1 %". Do you want to add all of them ? That's why I said that it's no minor technicality. --Rsk6400 (talk) 15:23, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Etonmessisthebest:Percentage of Black American Jews is 2% https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/jewish/ Robjwev (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

2 % of Jews, but not 2 % of African Americans. --Rsk6400 (talk) 12:59, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

2.4% total population 2% of that were AA but those numbers are under reported https://leichtag.org/press-release-population-of-jews-of-color-is-increasing-in-u-s-despite-undercounting-in-population-studies/ You have no legitimate reason to revert fellow editor edits because you deemed it not worthy. Please cite inflexible WP rules (not your personal interpretation of the rules) why info should not be included or stop policing others edits. Robjwev (talk) 14:40, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think your demands are in line with the culture of Wikipedia - all rules have to be interpreted, that's why we need discussions to reach consensus. Our aim is to build an encyclopedia that deserves the trust people place in it, that's why we have to use reliable sources and to represent them correctly. --Rsk6400 (talk) 17:46, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

The reverts you're making seem to be based on opinion, not a WP rule. Reverting an individual editor shouldn't happen without given specific WP rules this creates trust. Reverting an individual editor without just cause isn't garnering trust, consensus, or good faith but censorship based on individual bias of content. I gave you the references needed to add the information. Please elaborate, your specific objections to the reverted additions. Robjwev (talk) 19:11, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

You did notice that you misread the statistics, did you ? That's why I wrote 2 % of Jews, but not 2 % of African Americans. --Rsk6400 (talk) 04:58, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think you understand what are we are saying. This article is for AA #'s The total # for all American Jews is 2.4 % out of that 2.4% 2% are AA. Look at ref# (2) it shows all Religion breakdowns scroll down to more info click link labeled Jews scroll down for race breakdown and it shows AA 2%. Why would we ref any other group to the AA article page?Robjwev (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Since this article is about African Americans we have to use the table which gives the percentage of African Americans per religion. And that is the line "Black" in the table called "Religious tradition by race/ethnicity" (ref no. 2). The table having 2 % belongs to the same study, but is labelled "Racial and ethnic composition among Jews". We might use that table for the article about American Jews. --Rsk6400 (talk) 05:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

We agree that 2% is the correct percentage to use when referring to AA. thats 2% of the overall 2.4% of American Jews. Robjwev (talk) 17:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

No. --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:09, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I provided a reliable source your reasoning has no logic behind it please explain why this info is okay to use in one article and not for another? @Etonmessisthebest: what's your take on this? Robjwev (talk) 12:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

REF2 comparing to all AA to Jewish AA percentage is <1%. Compared to all Jewish Americans, it's 2% for AA; one of these percentages <1% or 2% could work. We should also add The remaining religious percentages. Any legitimate objections?Robjwev (talk) 00:21, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Given that we can't tell from the source (Pew table) whether the <1% is in fact 0 for any the religions that are listed as <1%, I suggest adding "Significant"; also dropping "irreligious" given that is not a term used by the source (the link for unaffiliated can still go to irreligious article). I note the source also distinguished between Evangelical, Historically Black Protestant, and Mainline Protestant. Given the significance of the Historically Black churches to the African American community, not listing it separately seems misleading. Perhaps "Predominantly Protestant including Historically Black Protestant (53%), Evangelical Protestant (14%), and Mainline Protestant (4%); significant others include Catholic (5%), Jehovah's Witnesses (2%), Muslim (2%), unaffiliated (18%)" Perhaps put a note in the reference that significant means >1%. Admittedly there is no article on Historically Black Protestant with the closest being Black church. --Erp (talk) 04:56, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Wonderful idea. Done. --Rsk6400 (talk) 05:50, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

It makes no sense that a survey would list any group that didn't respond to a survey without mentioning that in the notes. Since we can't determine the raw numbers, we should not speculate those numbers, especially with such a small sample size. There's nothing wrong with listing all groups listed in the survey. WP:DEMOCRACY Changing the article without consensus is not acting in the spirit of consensus-building; we should honor the concept. Robjwev (talk) 14:03, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

The survey was looking at multiple groups so it only needed non-African-Americans to list a religious affiliation for it to show up (and as a survey absence of evidence, e.g., no one being surveyed mentioned it, is not evidence of absence, no one in the group belongs, just evidence of low numbers possibly including 0, hence <1% is used for those religions that few or none of a particular subgroup mention). Now I agree there are Jewish African Americans and they can be rightly mentioned in the body of the article (and at that point one can say that 2% of Jewish Americans are African-American and cite that part of the survey) and even more so in the separate article, but, in a summary the use of 'significant' should key the intelligent readers that the list is not exhaustive. --Erp (talk) 15:10, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I followed Erp's suggestion. Since nobody has objected for some days, I hope that everybody is content now. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:12, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Best if it's left as it is if that's the solution.Robjwev (talk) 19:35, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

"Racially Black"

@Robjwev: The edit you restored repeats an edit that AbiyDemeke made earlier. They are a confirmed sock. If you really want to keep that edit, feel free to explain your reasons here. --Rsk6400 (talk) 13:16, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

The information is accurate but since the editor is compromised I won't object to the revert. Robjwev (talk) 13:52, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Percentages in infobox

Can someone fix the percentages in the infobox. The 46.9 million number corresponds to 14.2% but the 44.2 million number is put as 16.4%. That makes no sense. There is probably a typo of some sort.

NorfolkIsland123 (talk) 20:25, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I think I found the right %, however it is so different from the numbers given I am doubting myself. As I also doubt the usefulness of mentioning non Hispanic African Americans in the info box, better to have nothing till someone can find the right number with certainty. I get 14.8% 39,940,000 from the given ref[1] if someone else could check that would be great. Dushan Jugum (talk) 01:04, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 October 2021

Go to the Education section of this African Americans article.

"By 1870, around seventy-four institutions in the south provided a form of advanced education for African American students, and by 1800, over a hundred programs at these schools provided training for Black professionals, including teachers. "

Change year 1800 to year 1900, for the above quote. There weren't hundreds of programs in 1800, when slavery was dominate. It was rather in 1900 that the programs plausibly existed. Moreover, the progression of the sentence indicates that that is what the author intended; the author started at 1870 and then reverted to 1800. Most natural reading is 1870 and then 1900.

Thanks. 2601:243:CD00:8D70:7902:2F31:BB82:5FAC (talk) 03:14, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done Thank you for noticing this error. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:26, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

When did Africans become African Americans?

I just made this revert to an article. The previous editor changed African American slaves to African. My reason for reverting was that by the time of the US revolution there would have been multiple generations of slaves born in the country/colony. Was I wrong to revert? Is there a definitive point in history at which Africans became African Americans? I couldn't see anything in the article. 10mmsocket (talk) 10:05, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

"African American" is the normal term, and so I think your revert was justified. --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:34, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

African and Caribbean immigrants are not African American. Neither are Kamala Harris nor Barack Obama

I think it is a bit ethnicidal to say that African American descendants of slaves do not have their own unique culture, lineage, history, heritage, and traditions that warrant being separated from those of Africans and Caribbeans. There are wikipedia pages specifically for Nigerian American, Jamaican Americans, etc and yet there is no page that is specifically for descendants of slaves who make up that vast majority of people who identify as Black. In the introductory paragraph itself it says that 95% of African immigrants do not identify with the term African American. African Americans are their own unique ethnic group with their own unique relationship with America and the article should reflect that. Obama's father is Kenyan and his mother is a white woman. Kamala's father is Jamaican and her mother is Indian. Neither descends from those enslaved in America. Neither should be listed here as African-American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taharka155 (talk • contribs)

Fair point, though the term "ethnicidal" is a bit over he top. See WP:BOLD. Do not forget to leave an edit summary, though. Kleuske (talk) 21:29, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

@Taharka: Thanks for taking this here. As Wikipedians, we don't rely on our own reasoning (that is called "original research (OR)", but on reliable sources (RS). And reliable sources say that both Obama and Harris self-identify as African Americans. Who are we to tell an adult (let alone one of the most respected persons living today) how to identify ? BTW: "Ethnicidal" is not just "a bit" over the top. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@Rsk6400: Ethnocide is the only term that can be used for the purposeful erasure of an ethnic group, which is precisely what you are doing by saying anyone Black in race is an African American. Concerning Kamala and Obama, if a Black American chooses to self identify as Chinese that does not make him Chinese. Neither Kamala nor Obama descend from American slaves. And as I've previously mentioned, Kenyan Americans, Nigerian Americans, Jamaican Americans, etc. have their own separate wikipedia pages and there is absolutely no reason for them to be lumped together with African Americans. 95% of Black immigrants do not identify with the term African American. At this point I will simply be creating a separate page for actual African Americans since this RSK individual is hell bent on erasing therAfrican American ethnicity with the claim that anyone can be an African American even if they don't identify as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taharka155 (talk • contribs) 10:00, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

The separate page that Taharka155 has created can be found at African Americans (ethnicity). I have nominated it for deletion as a WP:POVFORK of this page. – bradv^🍁 16:47, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Initially the US census listed only the category of Black, irregardless of ethnicity. As of 2020 and with increasing numbers of immigrated black ethnic groups, the census clarified the varied 'black' American ethnicities also including mixed race peoples. As public discourse regarding ethnicity has increased exponentially, our need for clarity and concise language has increased. Sociology In Action (talk) 08:14, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@Taharka155: You reverted four times, which normally leads to a block. I suggest you self-revert, see WP:3RR. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:59, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Rsk6400: No, you have reverted by edit more than four times, without addressing the uncited claims you have made. You have followed me to other pages and reverted edits I've made there. I'm not the one reverting original edits repeatedly, that would be you. Provide proper citations for your edits or demonstrate here where in your original citations the information is stated, because they clearly state the opposite.--Taharka155 (talk) 21:07, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Deletion discussion on fork of this article

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/African_Americans_(ethnicity) about the fork of this article that was created today. --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:18, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Obama & Harris are recognized as black Americans generally, but it is accepted that they are not specifically ethnically African Americans as of 2021. would specify their ethnicity, but allow the self identification, as this is how they were 'labeled' during their childhood. stripping Obama of his self identification is overly political/ inflammatory & ignores that any 'colored/negro child in the 1950/60's would have then been labeled as Afro/African-American by the 1980's. Sociology In Action (talk) 09:26, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

When you say it is accepted that they are specifically ethnically African Americans, you need to outline what reliable global authority has "accepted" this and where/when then majority of reliable secondary sources adopted that acceptance such that it has become the consensus view on the subject. If this hasn't happened (and, bluntly, it hasn't) then unfortunately you're really just arguing your own personal opinion. Of course you're welcome to that opinion, but it's not a valid basis for Wikipedia article content. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:35, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Not requesting it be changed, just that the information be revised & it already was. Sociology In Action (talk) 10:00, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Where? Both this article and Barack Obama say Obama is African American. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:09, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

on the wiki page >He was born to an American mother and a Kenyan father. His mother, Ann Dunham (1942–1995), was born in Wichita, Kansas; she was mostly of English descent,[12] with some German, Irish, Scottish,[13] Swiss, and Welsh ancestry.[14] Sociology In Action (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Sociology In Action: There is currently a deletion discussion being made for African Americans (ethnicity) if you would like to make your opinion known there.--Taharka155 (talk) 12:49, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Taharka155: Please note that WP:VOTESTACKING is considered inappropiate. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:25, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Rsk6400: I have not asked anyone to vote one way or another or to vote at all, I simply informed someone that a discussion was taking place there.--Taharka155 (talk) 18:35, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

WP:VOTESTACKING exactly describes what you did. Please read it. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:41, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Ah, in a similar fashion to User:Austronesier who has made several edits to your talks page over the last year and has made his opinion known on the deletion discussion?--Taharka155 (talk) 23:51, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

If you want to imply that I alerted them to that discussion: No, I didn't. --Rsk6400 (talk) 08:14, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Correcting Vague Confusing & Incorrect Language

African Americans are the African Descendants of US Slavery and their ethnic group is distinctive from recently immigrated (~1950's to present) black peoples from the diaspora, such as Caribbeans, Latin Americans, and Africans. For example, the correct ethnic name for a black American family from Kenya is Kenyan Americans, Brazil --> AfroBrazilian American, Jamaica--> Jamaican American. Although we all have a range of 'black' skin tones and are all Black Americans, we all have distinctive ethnic identities, languages and dialects, cultures, genetic markers, and histories. Sociology In Action (talk) 07:57, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Sources ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:58, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Smith, Tom W. (1992) "Changing racial labels: from 'Colored' to 'Negro' to 'Black' to 'African American'." Public Opinion Quarterly 56(4):496–514 Sociology In Action (talk) 06:29, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Each ethnic group has their own wiki page, i.e. Jamaican Americans, Nigerian Americans, etc. Sociology In Action (talk) 06:30, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for highlighting this Tom Smith article, but it doesn't doesn't support (or even particularly mention) the argument you're making. Wikipedia articles reflect the content of reliable secondary sources on any article topic. Absent reliable sourcing, this suggested change isn't likely to be made. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:06, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

As of 2021, it is general consensus that all black African descended people in the United States identify specifically by ethnic groups & generally by race. African American is not a race and since it is an ethnicity, should not be used as a general category.  https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/03/25/the-growing-diversity-of-black-america/

Okegbe T. Expanding Opportunities for American Descendants of Slavery to Build a More Inclusive and Diverse Global Health Workforce. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 2021 Mar 17;104(5):1628–30. doi: 10.4269/ajtmh.20-1655. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 33729995; PMCID: PMC8103476. Sociology In Action (talk) 09:29, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

@Sociology In Action: Please don't discuss in three different sections. That only serves to generate confusion. You claim that a) only descendants of enslaved Black Americans may be called "African Americans" and b) specifically that Barack Obama is no African American. Since there are many sources for the opposite, you need very good sources for your extraordinary claim, see WP:REDFLAG. --Rsk6400 (talk) 14:08, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

a)yes. multiple sources provided proving general consensus/ public perception/ US Census designations as of 2020, regarding separate ethnicities. also, multiple wikipages outline distinct black American ethnicities i.e. Haitian American, Jamaican American, etc b) clarified previously why he's CONSIDERED first AA POTUS--no objection. but not extraordinary/ inflammatory or divisive, Obama stated himself what his ethnicity is, editors wanted ethnicity updated as it is public knowledge, yet wasn't listed on wiki. I live in America among these groups by the way, it's common knowledge. Sociology In Action (talk) 00:11, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Please make yourself familiar with WP:RS, which is a core policy of Wikipedia. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:32, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

thank you. the sources provided are reliable. here's another one. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-changing-definition-of-african-american-4905887/ Sociology In Action (talk) 08:35, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I asked to you make yourself familiar with the concept of RS, because you repeatedly made points that everybody familiar with that concept will easily recognize as irrelevant (e.g. the common knowledge of the groups you live among). The text from smithsonianmag is interesting, but like the other sources you gave, it doesn't support your claim. Ira Berlin even uses "African-American" in the very sense that you claim to be not correct. --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:05, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Please review the following additional sources, so consensus may be achieved regarding the edit to the first paragraph of the wikipage.

Martin, Ben L. “From Negro to Black to African American: The Power of Names and Naming.” Political Science Quarterly, vol. 106, no. 1, [Academy of Political Science, Wiley], 1991, pp. 83–107, https://doi.org/10.2307/2152175.

https://aaregistry.org/story/african-american-the-term-a-brief-history/

https://yalealumnimagazine.com/articles/4216-the-origin-of-african-american

https://newafricanmagazine.com/3168/

Sociology In Action (talk) 09:58, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

It's reasonably evident you haven't read any of the sources you keep posting here, because they don't actually support your argument. You also clearly don't understand either WP:RS or WP:OR, which makes this discussion kind of pointless. As others have said, please familiarise yourself with Wikipedia policies on sourcing as articles can only be amended when there are reliable secondary sources to back up the changes. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:12, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I replied to your previous post before I saw this one. No, I will not review those sources for the reasons I already gave when talking about REDFLAG and because I already reviewed two sources you gave which turned out to be pretty irrelevant. --Rsk6400 (talk) 10:08, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

For clarity, the sources reveal the history of the term African American, who coined the term and why, how increasing immigration has forced black America to distinguish between the distinctive ethnic groups as they all have unique histories and cultures that are not interchangeable. i.e. Jamaican Americans are not African Americans. Elon Musk is not an African American. Oprah Winfrey, whose ancestors were the descendants of slaves in America is African American. My request was that the disclaimers in the definition, such as people self-identifying is incredibly vague and confusing,so should be removed. When I sought out information on the demographics of different states, I noticed that Wikipedia's information is outdated with inadequate details regarding the different black ethnic groups in several states. I will review the formatting critiques again as you have requested and will reply with a specific formatted edit. Please review the last 2 sources, as they are very informative and the African American community deserves adequate information posted about their ethnic group. This is why you keep receiving requests on this topic from different editors. Sociology In Action (talk) 07:07, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I looked at the last two sources. Neither supports your claim and the last https://newafricanmagazine.com/3168/, even has some descendants of slaves not wanting to be called African American (as well as one immigrant who is planning to go back to Africa not wanting to be called African American). Now I agree that a distinction can be useful though I note recent immigrants or children of immigrants often merge into the already existing mainstream African American culture (this is what Obama and Harris did). What we as Wikipedia editors can't do is be prescriptive and make a distinction that isn't well supported by reliable sources. --Erp (talk) 08:24, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Understandable, yet the point is to be descriptive, not prescriptive. Please exclude Obama/ Harris from this discussion on updating the African American ethnicity page, as it is highly controversial and has little to do with the page. Let's agree that there are varied views on this topic, possibly deserving their own pages. Self-identification as African American is understandable in areas where few people have immigrated, although I would argue that even in these cases, persons will clearly state that 'they're really from Trinidad' or 'actually from Ethiopia', etc. It's also understandable in the early days of immigration when few black people had immigrated, so they merged into the broader culture. It's also a prominent issue among mixed race Americans categorized by hypodescent laws. What we don't want to do is have people using the term African American because they believe the term black is distasteful and vice versa. Or assuming that all black Americans are African American. It is just an ethnic category, not a racial category and that point needs to be clarified. Sociology In Action (talk) 23:08, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Current lead

While some Black immigrants or their children may also come to identify as African-American, the vast majority do not. Immigrants from some Caribbean, Central American, and South American nations and their descendants may or may not also self-identify with the term.

and the following paragraph

According to U.S. Census Bureau data, African immigrants generally do not self-identify as African American. The overwhelming majority of African immigrants identify instead with their own respective ethnicities (~95%). Immigrants from some Caribbean, Central American, and South American nations and their descendants may or may not also self-identify with the term.

seems a bit doubled up. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Actually the first three paragraphs should probably be rewritten to clarify things. However a start would probably be a deep dive into the talk page archives to see what has already been discussed about what should be in the lead. We have a situation where we have two social constructs, race and ethnicity, interacting. African American is an ethnicity. Black people is a racial classification. So the line about "African Americans constitute the second largest racial group" also seems a bit out of place (as for that matter does White Americans) given that "racial" categories in the US census would also include people who are not US citizens or even permanent residents but are in the US (e.g., students, J-1 visa holders, H-1 visa holders, etc.). In the case of African-Americans, the term also does not necessarily include those who more closely identify with a particular African country or ethnic group in combo with being American (though their children and grandchildren may come to identify as African American). Admittedly I could be wrong about all this. --Erp (talk) 18:13, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

These were the changes I was referring to and I agree with your assessment. Sociology In Action (talk) 22:45, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

@Erp -- Sociology In Action (talk) 22:45, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_January_11#Category:Works_about_race_and_ethnicity

I started this discussion, and it led to the following interesting question:

Should categories like Category:African-American novels and Category:Jewish American novels be based on the background of the author or the content of the work? If you have an opinion, please share at the Cfd-page. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:37, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 May 2019 and 24 August 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Magnifique617.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:31, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Ethnic Group term

Nowhere in the sources provided are African Americans called an ethnic group so where does this wording come from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lmagoutas (talk • contribs) 01:05, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

For example the current ref [4] in the article use the wording. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:34, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Pre-colonial African Americans

The following was added on 2/8/2022

Pre-colonial era

Former Spanish slaves who had been freed by Francis Drake arrived aboard the Golden Hind at New Albion in California in 1579. Diego, a Cimarron who had joined Drake as a man-servant years earlier; Maria a slave freed from a Spanish ship; a Black slave freed from Spanish trial at Huatulco; and one or two other freed Spanish slaves traveled to California where they spent five seeks with the Coast Miwok people.

It was immediately reverted.

This five-week stay is well documented -- by English, Spanish and Mexican records.

Does not the first African American experience on the west coast of the USA at least deserve a mention?MikeVdP (talk) 05:50, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

what "American" characteristics did they have? Did Drake also become an American--and his crew as well?? Rjensen (talk) 05:56, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

They were the first Black people on the west coast. They were part of the first English claim on what became the USA. They interacted with the Coast Miwok peoples, adding to their traditions. (The Coast Miwok thought that their dead had come back to life -- some white, some dark; all stinky; all in odd clothing; in a large boat with white sails; all speaking foreign tongues.)

The fact that the visit was five weeks and that they left doesn't negate the "first" fact.

Do we need a separate History of Blacks in America article?MikeVdP (talk) 06:21, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

the source calls them English =="Black Tudors" --you need a reliable source that instead says these visitors were "American." Rjensen (talk) 06:31, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

"Firsts" are normally considered relevant, and so the first Africans in America might be relevant here, even if they are not called "African Americans". However, since we have an article "African-American history", I'd suggest to add the text there. --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:40, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Wilson Chinn

@Fargosquires: I think it might be a good idea to add the NYT quote from your edit summary in a note or reference to the picture. Any thoughts ? Rsk6400 (talk) 17:27, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2022

Grammar. In the parenthetical in the opening sentence, please either add a comma (and, formerly, …) or remove the stray comma (and formerly …). 96.8.24.95 (talk) 05:07, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done  melecie  t - 05:13, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Obama, Kamala, and ADOS

I made a series of edits today, rearranging the intro, adding content, and clarifying info on the parentage of the first Black president and vice president in the US (given that the intro specifies 95% percent of immigrants and their recent descendants do not self-identify as African American). The entire edit was reverted by another user, who said a source from 2007 was "too old", and that a link to a Wiki page on African-American descendants of US slavery (to my knowledge the only page referring directly to such a concept) was "unjustified". The other aspects of my reverted edits were not mentioned, and no Wiki policies were cited by said user, so I reverted and made some slight changes based on their comments.

Opening this thread for the purpose of further discussion. natemup (talk) 18:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Edit summaries are naturally short, that's why I didn't mention policies. But I sincerely ask you to always use edit summaries and to mention potentially controversial points in them - you mentioned Obama Sr., but you didn't mention the president. Obama is identified and self-identifies as "African American", so there is no need to change to "Black American". Since the last census took place in 2020, I really think that we don't need to add a 2007 source. ADOS is a name that is not widely used, except by the group of that same name and some others, so it should not be linked prominently. I searched the source you recently added for any mention of "Negro American" and found none. It was always "Negro" without "American". --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I have no problem with him being referred to as an African American, which I changed the identification back to after reverting your edits. You have blanked just about everything else, however, without any explanation. Why omit the sourced information about Obama and Kamala's parents? The re-ordering of the intro? The addition of obvious ethnic references like "Negro American" (which a simple Google search would show was very much the norm alongside "Colored" before "African American" was created in the 1980s)?

Moreover, the 2007 source has absolutely nothing to do with the census, which renders your explanation on that point moot. It has Obama self-identifying as a Kenyan American, just as he has identified as an African American elsewhere.

It seems you do not want this page to be changed at all without your permission. How that squares with Wikipedia policy I do not know. natemup (talk) 21:27, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I changed my mind about "Negro American" and "Colored American" after doing a search for "Negro American" on JSTOR. The term clearly has been used, and so it doesn't need to be sourced. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:09, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Happy to hear you changed your mind. In the future, however, it seems prudent to not make (or blank) edits based on your personal opinions. natemup (talk) 13:21, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

@Natemup: For reverting, it is not necessary to cite policies. For discussion, it helps. The WP:LEAD shall summarize the article, not repeat it. In an article about all African Americans, it seems WP:UNDUE to discuss two persons prominently. Douglass, DuBois, Jacobs, Tubman, King are not mentioned. Why should we want to mention Harris ? And finally, there is WP:ONUS, and I suggest you take a look at WP:TALK. --Rsk6400 (talk) 14:07, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

If Obama is the first and only African American president, and that's notable enough, why wouldn't the first and only African-American VP? Plus there's the other details you blanked (even about Obama), concerning their Black parents being immigrants (or not American at all, in the case of Obama), which seem to be the real thing you don't want in the lead. natemup (talk) 15:46, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Because the president is by far more notable, more known and more powerful than the vice president. Why not Douglass ? In his The Transformation of the World: A Global History of the Nineteenth Century, Jürgen Osterhammel recommends two American authors: Melville and - Douglass. Why not King ? His birthday is a federal holiday. If we select one person (Obama), we should not go too much into details, especially because the community someone chooses to identify with is determined by many factors, parents being only one of them. If we start to discuss his parents, why not his marriage, the church he attends, and so on ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:47, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Have you guys perused the archives for talks about these things?

While it might be fine to allow "Afro-Americans" to remain in the lead as an alt name, "Negro Americans" and "Colored Americans" should be removed from the lead. These are very old, outdated, and controversial terms, and they already have spots in the article: African Americans#Terminology and African Americans#Terms no longer in common use. The lead is for the most common names. See WP:OTHERNAMES: "By the design of Wikipedia's software, an article can only have one title. When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. If there are three or more alternative names – including alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historic names, and significant names in other languages – or there is something notable about the names themselves, a separate name section is recommended."

The lead, at six paragraphs, also isn't as tidy anymore. The Barack thing at the end stands out like a sore thumb. It should be integrated back into one of the existing paragraphs. I also agree with you, Rsk6400, that the lead "shall summarize the article, not repeat it." 77.240.240.235 (talk) 21:04, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

As it is, RSK has meticulously deleted sourced content I added concerning the parentage of Obama and Harris, in the intro and the history section. natemup (talk) 21:50, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and I gave my reasons for it. The IP did the same. Not everything that is verifiable is also relevant, see WP:ONUS. --Rsk6400 (talk) 06:52, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

You gave no reason for the deletion of any information beyond the intro. The IP specifically said to integrate it back into one of the paragraphs, which you have repeatedly blocked. natemup (talk) 10:45, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Neither Obama nor Kamala are the genetic African Descendants of US Slavery, so for consistency they should not be referred to as African Americans. Barack Obama is a biracial Kenyan American and Kamala Harris is Jamaica American. As Wikipedia is the main source of information for millions of people globally, we should strive to be as accurate as possible, especially on this particular topic where people are seeking sources and the information is conflicting. Sociology In Action (talk) 08:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Please see references 3 and 4 in the lead sentence of the article, which outline legal definitions of African American that are much broader than just "African descendants of US slavery." -- Euryalus (talk) 07:12, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

@Sociology in Action: Would you mind providing a source for that info so I can add it to African Americans (ethnicity)?--Taharka155 (talk) 12:51, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

These are my sources. >>Negro, Black, Black African, African Caribbean, African American or what? Labeling African Origin populations in the health arena in the 21st century Charles Agyemang, et al. Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health Volume 59, Issue 12 https://jech.bmj.com/content/59/12/1014 Most African Americans are descendants of persons brought to the Americas as slaves between the 17th and 19th century (distant ancestry). Such people differ from others who came from Africa or the Caribbean in the 20th and 21st centuries (recent ancestry), in terms of culture, language, migration history, and health. These differences are often ignored. >>The Growing Diversity of Black America. Christine Tamir. Pew Research Center. March 25, 2021 https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/03/25/the-growing-diversity-of-black-america/ Discusses diversity in black America. >>1. Americans' Origins and Connections to their families' roots https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/05/14/americans-origins-and-connections-to-their-families-roots/ 2. only about half of Americans say census questions reflect their identity very well. D'vera Cohn, et al. Pew Research Center. May 14, 2021. https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2021/05/14/only-about-half-of-americans-say-census-questions-reflect-their-identity-very-well/ picture of 2020 census which has race [racial category] box and origins [ethnicity] box with African American listed as an ethnicity.  discussed origin as central to identity, interchangeable use of terms, AA as both a race & an ethnicity. Sociology In Action (talk) 08:51, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Your first does not necessarily support what you want; it states "The term African American refers to a person of African ancestral origins who self identifies or is identified by others as African American"; as it is making recommendations about medical science usage it also points out the term is so vague as to be not useful for medical research. The overall conclusion is that research reports need to define the terms they use and makes some recommendations for people writing on public health or epidemiology. Your second uses self identified "Black or African American" (from the census) as a category and "Black" as the overall. No distinction is made for what African American stands for. I'm not sure what your third is suppose to show. The last just shows the census questions were problematic but doesn't seem directly relevant to your point. Admittedly it would help if you would show how these supposedly support what point you are trying to make about how to change the article. All of these seem to allow Obama and Harris to be described as African American in Wikipedia if a good part of the community recognizes them as such and they self-identify as such (both true). --Erp (talk) 16:47, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with Obama/Harris, nor was it intended to. The sources validate the need for more specific language when discussing African Americans, as it is being used as both a racial category and an ethnic category, creating confusion. It gives clear validation of the various Black American ethnic groups. Please read the sources with this intent, not with the intent to exclude historical figures, but the intent to define the African American ethnic group and distinguish it from the broad category of the same name. The current lead already suggests this, although the language is redundant and confusing. However, if you use the lead as a broad racial category, then you need a separate page to detail the ethnic group. The main page could easily be retitled Black Americans and would include many more historical figures who belong to varied black ethnic groups, instead of trying to argue more controversial viewpoints regarding how people should identify or be viewed. Sociology In Action (talk) 22:19, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

@Natemup: Please respect WP:BRD and WP:ONUS. The essence of that is: Not everything which is true, is also relevant. You have to establish consensus here that your additions are relevant. This article is about an ethnic group of 13 million people, having more than 400 years of history. Why should the parents of two of them be especially relevant ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Because the lead paragraph of the article states, as most anyone knows, that the term "African American" refers most specifically to the descendants of American chattel slavery. Nothing whatsoever in these discussions indicates that we should blank mentions of the parentage of two of the most important figures mentioned. natemup (talk) 16:42, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, the lead is no reliable source. Aditionally, it says "generally", not "most specifically". I think, to add the nationalities of the fathers of Obama and Harris, we'd need reliable sources that discuss those nationalities in the context of the vice / former president's being African American. And since both of them are very famous, we need very good sources for that. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:01, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

@Natemup: It seems you misunderstood me. Since this is the article about African Americans, and not the one about Obama or about Harris, it seems clear to me that we can only add something on their respective fathers if the sources seriously question their being African American or report on a serious discussion questioning it. "Serious" is to be understood in the sense of WP:REDFLAG. Also, you still didn't say why you think the addition necessary. The WP:ONUS is on you. --Rsk6400 (talk) 17:23, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

I said, in the very first sentence of my response the first time you asked, why I think it's necessary: "Because the lead paragraph of the article states, as most anyone knows, that the term 'African American' refers most specifically to the descendants of American chattel slavery."

My addition is not meant to question that they are African American, but just to note that they are not in the demographic most commonly associated with the term; the average reader might otherwise think they are, since the article lede makes that claim that it does. The onus is on me, I have justified my edits multiple times, and you continue to gate-keep the page as though I must satisfy your idiosyncratic desires in order to make an edit you obviously (and singly) oppose. natemup (talk) 02:10, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

that they are not in the demographic most commonly associated with the term - Do you have any reliable source meeting REDFLAG criteria that supports your claim ? Does "demographic" here mean something similar to "ethnic group" ? And, again, please, focus on content, according to WP:TALK. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:21, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I have repeatedly added sources detailing that they are not descendants of American slaves. You have repeatedly removed them. natemup (talk) 02:10, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Each and every source says that they are African American. But you have no source saying that each and every African American has to have enslaved American ancestors. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:27, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 March 2022

Phillipegarcia90 (talk) 18:19, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

According to the FBI, African-Americans accounted for 55.9% of all homicide offenders in 2019, with whites 41.1%, and "Other" 3.0% in cases where the race was known. Among homicide victims in 2019 where the race was known, 54.7% were black or African-American, 42.3% were white, and 3.1% were of other races. The per-capita offending rate for African-Americans was roughly eight times higher than that of whites, and their victim rate was similar. About half of homicides are known to be single-offender/single-victim, and most of those were intraracial; in those where the perpetrator's and victim's races were known, 81% of white victims were killed by whites and 91% of black or African-American victims were killed by blacks or African-Americans.

This information complements the understanding of race in the US.

References

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Please provide secondary sources to show context and WP:DUE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:54, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2022

Please change the profile picture for African Americans from the Pan-African flag to the Black American Heritage flag. Cej3104 (talk) 16:57, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. I don't see an image of any flag on this article anywhere. Cannolis (talk) 17:38, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Not all African Americans are black.

Elon musk would technically classify as an African American except according to the definition in wiki and dictionaries African Americans can only be black. That seems racists to classify that way. It also sounds like an uneducated racial term. Sounds like a phrase made by somebody who isn’t await that 9.7% of African population is white. 2601:2C4:C880:6E50:74C2:A738:3A08:41B9 (talk) 02:21, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

• source from last time this was mentioned..Moxy- 02:37, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Culture and music

@TyronMcLannister: A sentence without a finite verb is ungrammatical. The paragraph on African American culture has been there for a considerable period of time now, so please try to build consensus here to remove it. You can also try to improve it. Rsk6400 (talk) 10:59, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

• Instead of making such comments - editors need to correct a typo, and not falsely pretend that everything that in edit is "incorrect" and this "needs" to be canceled. Everything I tried to remove was only added about a week ago and does not represent a stable version and is poorly cited. Don't worry, I already understand why you're here. I'll be back when Putin's regime falls. TyronMcLannister (talk) 11:08, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

  It was added on April 14th, that's a bit more than "about a week ago". Rsk6400 (talk) 12:17, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

April 14 - only text, only after a while these OR were given fake "legitimacy" with the help of inappropriate sources TyronMcLannister (talk) 12:51, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Not "Ethnic Group"

As for "ethnicity" or "ethnic group" in the context of African Americans, it is strange and inappropriate to use it, given that:

• 1. This classification in relation to them does not have reliable sources.
• 2. All other demographic groups in the US are not considered "ethnic groups" in Wikipedia.

African Americans are simply Americans who are descendants of enslaved people from Sub-Saharan Africa, as indicated in the article, and not some ethnic group separate from other Americans, like those indigenous tribes and nations on reservations. The vast majority of African Americans have no self-identification as a separate "ethnic group", other than a small number of black nationalists and separatists. Just like "Irish Americans" are not Irish people with American citizenship, but American people whose ancestors were Irish HernánCortés1518 (talk) 19:21, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

This all hangs on one's definition of ethnic group. I find that most of what's in the lead there applies to African Americans, even modern ones. They have a distinct subculture and are a minority group with all the disadvantages that entails:

"... a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include common sets of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area."

"Ethnicity may be construed as an inherited or as a societally imposed construct. Ethnic membership tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language, or dialect, symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, art, or physical appearance. Ethnic groups may share a narrow or broad spectrum of genetic ancestry, depending on group identification, with many groups having mixed genetic ancestry."

Every bit of that applies. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:55, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Valjean's comment just above copied here from my user talk page. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 21:25, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Umm, this is a selective copy-paste from a Wikipedia article about "ethnicity", but not reliable sources necessary to include African Americans in the concept of "ethnicity".

• Like I said before: we need AT LEAST ONE cited reliable source that calls African Americans an ethnic group. Otherwise, it's POV pushing and original research all rolled into one. Also, "ethnic group" is primarily a personal and collective identity. If it were a culture, then the Bavarians would not consider themselves ethnic Germans and the Austrians would not consider themselves ethnic Austrians, but instead, Bavarians and Austrians would form one identity, because they have the same dialect, costumes and so on. The same situation with Serbs and Croats. But in the case of African Americans, separatist tendencies have always been extremely low even at their peak in the late 1960s.
• Of course, there is a very small percentage of people of different races in the USA, other than first-generation immigrants and extermist from basements, who refuse to consider themselves Americans except by citizenship, but such people usually do not have any ethnic or cultural affiliation at all and they considers themselves cosmopolitans.
• In the end, despite the complicated history: all races in the USA never lived in a vacuum, but always interacted with each other and influenced each other culturally, together forming the mainstream American identety, mentality and culture as it is, so talking about some "ethnic difference" is extremely difficult, except for indigenous nations from reservations who are truly isolated and have cultural autonomy.HernánCortés1518 (talk) 23:06, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  Here's a few:

  • Britannica: "one of the largest of the many ethnic groups in the United States"
  • BBC: "sleep times vary among different ethnic groups, with African-Americans getting at least 34 minutes less sleep than Asians, Hispanics or Caucasians"
  • The Reading Teacher: (peer reviewed) "the largest ethnic group represented in the school was African American"
  • Journal of Ethnicity in Criminal Justice: (peer reviewed) includes "African American" in a list of "ethnic group"s

  I'm not too bothered about using either "ethnic group" or "racial group" in the lead, but I'd prefer both to "demographic group". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:34, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I have restored the longstanding, status quo, consensus version. There is no consensus for changing it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:23, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

• I'm actually surprised there are non-extremist-outcast publications call African-Americans directly "ethnic group", but that their reputation.
• Another thing i like is that some of you bothered to do something other than thoughtless-POV motivated reverses and we already have a citation of RS, so I don’t mind that such a wording will remain in the article, although it is untrue and i don’t agree with it as the term itself is very vague and may have different criteria and formulations apparently. By the normal definition, black Americans are part of the American ethno-cultural group, and not some separate thing in itself. Even Hispanics, who have more rights to be called a "separate ethnic group", are not named as such on Wikipedia..
• All the same, it looks stupid and inappropriate for those who have ever been to the United States, know it's society beside Hollywood films and overseas news or ever speak with black Americans and asked how they see theselfs and therefore will not mislead anyone, but only amuse. So I won't lift a finger and won't go to a third opinion to flush clearly economically indepedent good-faith POV down the toilet. Let it be as it. HernánCortés1518 (talk) 11:59, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

The census clearly says Black or African American and the terms are often used interchangeably in publications, that doesn't mean African Americans aren't a separate ethnicity from Nigerian Americans or Jamaican Americans who are also black. African Americans are the largest ethnic group in the census category. Sociology In Action (talk) 17:35, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

>The census clearly states that it is black or African American, and these terms are often used interchangeably in publications.

• Did I dispute it?

>that doesn't mean African Americans aren't a separate ethnicity from Nigerian Americans or Jamaican Americans who are also black.

• It literally says that "racial group" and "ethnic group" are different things and "African-Americans" is ONLY a racial group based on self-identification based on the fact of black African origin, and not an ethnic group, such as representatives of first-generation immigrants from African countries or Caribbean countries, which for the most part are not considered: "African Americans", "Negro" or "Black".

>African Americans are the largest ethnic group in the census category.

• According to the census, they are not an "ethnic group" at all. it's just Americans of significant sub-saharan African ancestry who are not necessarily culturally different from other Americans. HernánCortés1518 (talk) 14:25, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Drug overdose deaths among Black Americans surged during the COVID-19 pandemic

The black suicide rate has increased during the COVID-19 pandemic.

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/03/970964576/drug-overdose-deaths-surge-among-black-americans-during-pandemic 121.151.179.165 (talk) 08:56, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

These states had the largest number of slaves.

Virginia had the most slaves with 490,867 slaves. Other states that had large number of slaves were Georgia (462,198), Mississippi (436,631), Alabama (435,080), and South Carolina (402,406).

https://www.worldatlas.com/amp/articles/which-u-s-states-had-the-most-slaves-at-the-start-of-the-civil-war.html 121.151.179.165 (talk) 09:02, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Race mixing between black slaves and Roma Gypsies occurred in Louisiana.

There is a Afro-Gypsy population in Louisiana.

https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/roma-gypsies 121.151.179.165 (talk) 09:23, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Mexicans were also discriminated during Jim Crow

Black Americans weren’t the only group discriminated during Jim Crow. Mexicans and Latinos were also discriminated.

https://www.history.com/.amp/news/the-brutal-history-of-anti-latino-discrimination-in-america 121.151.179.165 (talk) 09:26, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

"Blackmerican" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Blackmerican and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 8#Blackmerican until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TraderCharlotte (talk) 03:42, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2022

2601:150:4100:B930:642E:2F1E:5677:E787 (talk) 13:46, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I think some of the information in this page should be changed african American should only mean descendants of enslaved Africans in the us and that’s it.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:49, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 July 2022

Are ethnic group are considered to be named Foundation Black Americans or American Freedman. 73.254.160.195 (talk) 18:15, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: page move requests should be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Please also note WP:COMMONNAME. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 22:42, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

George Crum

The sentence about George Crum in the Culture section isn’t grammatically correct / doesn’t make sense 2610:148:1F02:7000:3591:DDAE:485C:3E9B (talk) 19:34, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done I removed the whole sentence since according to George Crum it is doubtful whether he was African American. Rsk6400 (talk) 05:45, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2022

75.172.185.93 (talk) 07:58, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Footnote #197 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans#cite_note-17) does not explicitly nor directly discuss what the it cites. The source is a more general Brookings Institute study (seems to be more impartial I.e, not taking a specific stance) and mostly is historical account of income inequity wrt race and various other factors - it does not whatsoever state that present day impediment to black progress is because of racism. This needs to be edited because it really just sounds like a vacuous parlance- to state what’s commonly and conventionally agreed upon by certain segments of society without factual basis seriously dampers Wikipedia’s credibility, esp given the prickly nature of the topic. If there is a verifiable and credible study and/ or source making this claim, this needs to be updated. Otherwise, this sentence needs to be materially modified.

 Not done The change you want to make is unclear; please use the form "Change X to Y". Rsk6400 (talk) 10:54, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2022 (2)

There is a Afro-Gypsy community in St. Martin Parish due to miscegenation of Romani slaves and African slaves in Louisiana. Add this to admixture section.

Source: We are the Romani People - Page 27 189.13.69.162 (talk) 22:03, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done The change you want to make is unclear; please use the form "Change X to Y". Rsk6400 (talk) 14:43, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2022 (3)

African American men married Mexican women in South Texas between the U.S. Civil War and World War I. This information should be added to the admixture section. Source here: [2] 189.13.69.162 (talk) 22:07, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done The change you want to make is unclear; please use the form "Change X to Y". Rsk6400 (talk) 14:43, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

African-American vs. Black-American

Is there are problem with having a page such as Black American when it's been proven that there are some black Americans such as Raven-Symone and Smokey Robinson who don't prescribe to the term "African-American"? I've only edited out African-American with Black-American because since there are a lot of blacks who aren't prescribing to the term "African-American" but with alternative terms such as the American Descendents of Slavery (ADOS) and Full Black Americans (FBA), then if there's a page that's still called White Americans on Wikipedia, then why can't there be a page called Black Americans?

I believe that due to trying to make a simple edit, that Wikipedia is going behind the times as far as what people want to call themselves. I only wanted to help and remedy the situation by just making the simple change but since Wikipedia wants to be politically correct in placing all black people, even the ones who don't prescribe to African-American such as Caribbean-American and Africans in America, then I feel that this is an utter shame that Wikipedia has to be politically correct because African-American is a more politically correct term then black American. PhiladelphiaWanderer34 (talk) 16:57, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Attempting to rename a well established article isn't a simple edit. Note this has been discussed before so you might want to check the archives then make a proposal to rename and gain a consensus for a new name before actually trying to rename. Erp (talk) 21:57, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Title

Why isn't "African Americans" hyphenated? — VORTEX³⁴²⁷ (Talk!) 04:43, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

According to my 2010 Oxford Dictionary of English, it is not. Note that on WP it is mostly hyphenated when used as a modifier ("African-American history"). Rsk6400 (talk) 07:08, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia lied

Wikipedia say African American history started in the 1600s, but there is plenty of historical evidence that proves Africans have been in America for over 13,000 years... The ratio of imported slaves to total black slaves don't correspond, 388,000 total slaves imported from Africa the whole duration of the transatlantic slave trade, but somehow by 1790 there were 700,000 and 4,000,000 by 1860 When the entire transatlantic slave trade lasted from 1619 to 1808 importing only 388,000 Africans within a nearly 200 year time period... Common sense have to kick in at some point. 2601:445:600:492:8946:CE29:9ABC:3051 (talk) 21:58, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Reliable source needed for your conjecture. Anyway it is thought about 388,000 Africans were imported directly to the present day US from Africa; however, two things contribute to 700,000 and 4,000,000. First and I suspect less important was the intra-American slave trade or movement of slave owners (with some of their slaves) from places like Haiti to the US. Second and more important was population growth of those enslaved. It was in the interest of the slave owners to have those they enslaved reproduce. Erp (talk) 03:10, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

African American vs Black American redux

I think I may make a move request or an RfC. See for instance [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/not-all-black-people-are-african-american-what-is-the-difference/] Not every black US citizen identifies as being African, obviously including those from the Caribbean, etc. Doug Weller talk 10:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2023

The first Africans to arrive in the United States were 20 Angolans kidnapped by the Portuguese. Add this information to the beginning of the history section.

https://www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/first-african-slave-ship-arrives-jamestown-colony 213.252.245.168 (talk) 08:37, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Not done: When creating edit requests you are required to present what you want a reviewing editor to do specifically. That is to say, you should phrase your request to sound something like "Please change X to Y" or "Please remove/add Y" with X and Y being quoted prose. If adding content, you must also specify where specifically in the article you wish to insert it. —Sirdog (talk) 04:33, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2023

Add Racism against African Americans to see also section. 76.174.235.156 (talk) 12:06, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done I added the link to the lead section. Rsk6400 (talk) 12:27, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

2% Muslims ?

Need source 2A02:C7C:507D:0:B820:F737:4D69:D842 (talk) 20:04, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2023 (2)

Change “On average, African Americans are of West/Central African with some European descent; some also have Native American and other ancestry” to “ The average African-American genome is 73.2% African, 24% European, and 0.8% Native American”

Source: https://www.science.org/content/article/genetic-study-reveals-surprising-ancestry-many-americans

Reasoning: “Some” European and “some” Native American ancestry is too colloquial, whereas hard data gives a more accurate picture. 24% European ancestry is not represented well and is trivialized by the word “some.” 2600:6C44:117F:E000:201E:E70B:93BD:37C8 (talk) 15:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: As similar studies are cited in the article, a change to the lead would require consensus. Please establish one for this alteration before using the Edit semi-protected template. M.Bitton (talk) 22:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I did not properly explain and cite. Those other studies which show different results are actually older, less up to date studies also conducted by Bryc et al.

Bryce et al published a more comprehensive and up to date report of their research in 2015, which uses the statistics I provided: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4289685/#!po=35.6000

Since Bryce et al were the source of those prior statistics, as found in the Genetics section of this Wikipedia article, their latest research should supersede their out of date research. Their updated findings are the result of the latest science and access to more data. Other statistics provided by other studies by different authors cited in the Wikipedia article are only concerned with regional demographic information, not broad breakdowns of the genome.

So since change to the lead would require consensus regarding broad breakdown of the genome, and that the only statistics in that regard already cited in the Wikipedia is article were those of Bryc et al, with no counter statistics provided by other authors/studies, I move to use the most up to date numbers by Bryc at al. Their report details how the numbers they’ve provided represent the consensus based upon data across available sources. 2600:6C44:117F:E000:93A:6B1:9B9A:89DB (talk) 00:54, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: It appears that the numbers you provided are already included in the section on Genetics. Still, changing the lead requires consensus; not because the numbers themselves are controversial (I agree with your line of reasoning that up to date is better), but because it's a substantial change to the way the data is presented.

I think the wording in the Genetics section is somewhat nicer than what you originally proposed, so I would be in favour of replacing the sentence in question with "On average, African Americans have 73.2–82.1% West African, 16.7%–24% European, and 0.8–1.2% Native American genetic ancestry, with large variation between individuals". Still, since this would be a change in the lead of an important article, I'd like to get input from some other editors before this change is implemented.

Closed the request pending consensus. Feel free to ping me when there has been some kind of input from other editors. Actualcpscm (talk) 13:06, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

This IP address is from a troll who supports Holocaust. I think you should view this and this. He tried to make a bludgeon here with the same style of verbose. 2405:4803:B444:FB40:BCC7:7F2:E391:B29C (talk) 12:21, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 27 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 10:00, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

---

African Americans → Black Americans – Not every black American identifies as being African, obviously including those from the Caribbean, etc. Compare with Black British people, Black Canadians, etc. Skovl (talk) 09:37, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. Google scholar suggests that both terms are about equally common. Ngrams show the complete opposite.

	Black American	African American
singular	5,820,000	5,450,000
plural	5,380,000	4,890,000

-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:59, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose While I agree that "African American" is a flawed term, we can't ignore the fact that it's the most common term. I'll note that subgroups like West Indian Americans, etc. have their own articles. There is no policy-based reason for this title to be consistent with other countries' articles. 162 etc. (talk) 16:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@162 etc.: What about WP:CRITERIA #5 (Consistency)? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:37, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

We also have Afro-Cubans, Afro-Brazilians, and Afro-Mexicans. There, we can't aim at consistency because "Afro-Americans" is surely not the common name. On the other hand, the history of Black British people or Black Canadians was not influenced by slavery in the same measure as the history of African Americans. So, I think we can't achieve consistency anyway. Rsk6400 (talk) 17:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. There are so many ethnic groups around the world, it would be impossible to name the articles in any systemic way without running afoul of WP:COMMONNAME. 162 etc. (talk) 17:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

It is WP:CRITERIA #3 (Precision) as well. And as Google scholar results above show the current title is not the clear WP:COMMONNAME, both terms are about equally common. Skovl (talk) 17:44, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

See comment by User:Freedom4U below. 162 etc. (talk) 15:43, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support Even though I note that the current term in the title is quite common so is the other variant. I agree with the opposer that the current term is flawed but I'd that it's a political imposition that is increasingly fading in many ways. Even as census categories Black and African-American are used together but when you look at recent history of identification you get more emphasis on Black than African-American so you have terms like Black Lives Matter, rather than African-American Lives Matter and Black national anthem rather than African-American national anthem, black America rather than African America and so on. Even when you dig up some historical stuff you'll find black more often. A Gallup poll from 2021 showed that If they had to choose, Black adults have a slight preference for "Black". --Killuminator (talk) 18:45, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
• Comment There was a recent discussion that resulted in moving "Racism against Black Americans" to Racism against African Americans. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:50, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

  After discounting the blocked sock !vote in that brief discussion, it still appears the gist was overall to be consistent with this article title; an adjustment to that article title could be similarly supported in the future if the title to this article is changed. Beccaynr (talk) 19:04, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support - The broad, unsorted Google results in the table above indicate Black American is more common by hundreds of thousands of results, and I think it is more persuasive that we also have specific sources such as, e.g. AP changes writing style to capitalize ″b″ in Black (AP, 2020, ""The lowercase black is a color, not a person." [...] The Los Angeles Times, USA Today and NBC News last week embraced capitalization, and the National Association of Black Journalists urged other news organizations to follow. [...] The death of Floyd, a Black man who died after a white Minneapolis police officer pressed a knee to his neck, sparked nationwide protests and lent momentum to a variety of social changes, from police reform and the public removal of Confederate statues and flags to the capitalization of Black.") which indicate contemporary usage in the United States. WP:COMMONNAME includes, In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of [...] major English-language media outlets [...], so consideration of US news outlets seems helpful. Beccaynr (talk) 18:52, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose -- keep because this is by far most common term among experts and reliable sources. America: History & Life lists major scholarly studies. Looking at scholarly books and articles 2007 to 2023 there are 3164 books and articles with "African American" in the title and only 79 with "Black American" in the title (plus another 341 with "Black American" in the abstracts.) Rjensen (talk) 19:05, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
• Weak oppose While I do think "Black Americans" is the more accurate name and one that will eventually be the common name, that Google scholar search was done completely improperly. If you put the search terms in quotes, you get the actual results of 291,000 for Black American vs 3.3 million for African American (385,000 vs 2.8 million in plural form). A Google search also returns 12.1 million hits for "Black Americans" vs 67.3 million hits for "African Americans". There is definitely a clear result here as to which is the more common name. Whether or not Black should be capitalized or not is a separate discussion unrelated to this proposal (I agree it should be capitalized, and it generally seems to already be the case). :3 F4U (they/it) 03:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. "African American" is the more common term, at least according to the Google Ngrams. Britannica also titles their article African Americans. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:21, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, per common term. Nampa DC (talk) 11:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Currently the WP:COMMONNAME. Should that change in the future we can revisit. But just for the record, I don't think I've ever seen the term "Black Americans" used. I've heard "Black people" and "African Americans" aplenty, but "Black Americans" is a rather unusual combination. Walrasiad (talk) 04:06, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment African American is a compound term (like basketball or tennis shoe). It isn’t supposed to be separated because it changes the meaning. African Americans were termed this in the 1700s by their own enslaved and free ancestors. Even in the 1800s, the ethnic group African American had an African American Day in the USA.

The reason for the compound term African American is simple. During the TransAtlantic Slave Trade, Africa (as we now know it) didn’t have 54 countries. Everyone, including Africans who were enslaved, referred to it as the mainland, or country land, of Africa. There was no Nigeria, Ghana, Togo etc. These “new” countries were founded in the 1900s.

When our ancestors named us, the descendants of the enslaved from the TransAtlantic Slave trade, they referenced us as “African American” and fought for that to be our name. That was the ONLY COUNTRYLAND they knew… AFRICA. Not all those other countries newly formed today where immigrants who are not descendants of the enslaved can name Nigerian American or Ghanaian American etc.

With African Americans it wasn’t so. African Americans are a distinct group from originating from the TransAtlantic Slave trade in America where they built their own culture after being taken from Africa.

People constantly make the mistake of separating the term for an odd reason. African American has a full and complete reason as to why it is there as a COMPOUND WORDED ETHNICITY, but because people don’t know the history, because complete black history isn’t taught, they destroy it.

The term African American is a compound worded ethnicity and it should remain as the reference to the descendants of the enslaved in the USA. WayMaQueen (talk) 22:50, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment And to add to the precious comment, African American and Black American has always been interchangeable for the descendants of the enslaved in the USA going back to the 1700s. It referenced no other black group historically. There are documents to prove this recorded in newspapers.

Ppl moving into the USA voluntarily today and since the 60s have to adjust to this country’s history and dominant cultures as the White House as already distinguished immigrants with Caribbean Heritage Month and so on, understanding that African American, or Black American, refers to the descendants of enslaved that were already in USA prior to the emancipation proclamation. WayMaQueen (talk) 22:58, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

United States has an RFC

United States has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Shoreranger (talk) 15:53, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

TV

It would be good to add a section for tv. There is an article on film, but not tv, unless I missed it. This should include the topic of shows, as well as eminent or long-term actors. Couldn’t find anything, though there is a reference on a tv actor’s website, but then the linked article doesn’t include tv! 69.181.192.29 (talk) 00:48, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2023 (2)

Add

See also: African immigration to the United States

to the top of the article. 45.8.146.82 (talk) 10:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: already mentioned in the article. M.Bitton (talk) 12:47, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2023

Add the African immigration to the United States template to the bottom.

45.8.146.82 (talk) 10:47, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

 Question: The article's lede explains, According to U.S. Census Bureau data, African immigrants generally do not self-identify as African American. The overwhelming majority of African immigrants identify instead with their own respective ethnicities (~95%). Given that immigrants from the African continent do not self-identify as African American, is it appropriate to include this category on this page? --Pinchme123 (talk) 16:14, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Probably not. I suggest to the IP to seek consensus for its inclusion. M.Bitton (talk) 18:55, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 18:56, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Egyptians

Egyptian Americans are considered African American. Sollyman (talk) 21:35, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources for this statement? -- Euryalus (talk) 01:06, 15 June 2023 (UTC)