Open main menu

14th Dalai Lama was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 17, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
February 24, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee
edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for 14th Dalai Lama:

  • Add information about religious role and policies.
  • Add note on correct pronunciation of "Dalai"

Nobel Peace PrizeEdit

People awarded the Nobel Peace Prize normally have the medal image displayed at the top of their Wikipedia article. Dalai Lama has many awards, but no award in the world is outranking the Nobel Peace Prize. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:464A:FF3C:0:A0AB:3B3C:2458:8740 (talk) 05:33, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Barack Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize, and there is no medal image at the top of his article. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:47, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Nelson Mandela, no medal image. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:53, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Albert Schweitzer, no medal image. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:56, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Anwar Sadat, no medal image. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Martin Luther King Jr., no medal image. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:02, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Wasn't the 14th Dalai Lama born in the Republic of China (1912-1949) I would like to reach a new consensusEdit

Right now, it says that the Dalai Lama was born in an "independent" Tibet. Legally, he was born in Tibet, Republic of China. Tibet at the time was a highly autonomous territory of the Republic of China. I would like to argue that he was born in the Republic of China. Please post your arguments below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamwikisz (talkcontribs) 04:23, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Adamwikisz, what do RS say?--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:49, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
In 1935, Taktser, the Dalai Lama's birthplace, was part of the Republic of China. See Thomas Laird, The Story of Tibet: Conversations with the Dalai Lama, Grove/Atlantic, Inc., 2007, 496 p., p. 262: "In the 1930s, the Muslim warlord Ma Pu-fang seized the northeast corner of Amdo in the name of Chiang Kai-shek's weak central government and incorporated it into the Chinese province of Qinghai. He ruled the area from the town now called Xining (pronounced shi-ning), capital of Qinhai Province. Tibetans in Amdo ordinarily spoke Tibetan, so it was a surprise to hear the Dalai Lama say that in Taktser (nominally under Ma Pu-fang's control in 1935), although only two of the seventeen households were Chinese, his family did not speak Tibetan as its first language." Will that be enough in the way of RS? --Elnon (talk) 14:08, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
I don't get what's the point in mentioned it anyway. Is not established anywhere in the policies about living people that the exact political entity of where they were born has to be mentioned. I think mentioning the region is more than enough, if someone is interested can check such article and read about it. Unnecesary specification of the area of living is an invitation for future edit wars specially under such controversial matter and in such an area of the world were borders were constantly changing and claim by different powers. But I'm also curious if there's any other source aside from Laird's book for that claim? Otherwise basing such assestment in one single source is kind of trikcy. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 04:22, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

The statement "Taktser, Amdo, Tibet" is wrong and misleading as it implies there exists a political entity "Tibet" that covers all the way to eastern Qinghai. The fact is that Haidong region have been never ruled from Lhasa since 10th century and Amdo is solely a cultural term. Just look at the demographics: Ping'an County is 4% Tibetan while Han+Hui make up 93%. The village is not part of that "Tibet" in any meaningful way, not even Amdo unless very loose definitions are used.

Either the birth place should be stated as it is – Hongya, Ping'an, Qinghai, or it can be not mentioned in the article at all. Esiymbro (talk) 05:32, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Do you have any sources that support your claim? (that he was born in Hongya, Ping'an, Qinghai) --Dereck Camacho (talk) 07:31, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia summarizes what reliable sources say, Esiymbro. So, please furnish links to reliable sources other than the Laird source that report that the 14th Dalai Lama was born in the Republic of China. Even more importantly, what do the full range of reliable sources say? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:38, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
@Dereck Camacho:: See the Taktser article. A small inaccuracy is that Ping'an was not established yet back then, instead it should be Xining County.
@Cullen328:: "Now he [Reting] announced that the letter a that he had seen stood for Amdo, a part of China's Tsinghai Province with many ethnic Tibetans." "Moreover, these officials did not like the idea of focusing the search for the new Dalai Lama in Chinese controlled territory, since this could give the Chinese a lever to increase their influence in Tibet." "In July 1937, after the entire team went to Sining to pay a courtesy visit and present gifts to Ma Pu-fang, the semi-independent Moslem warlord in control of the area, the search continued for stories of remarkable births of male children." - pp.315-316, A History of Modern Tibet by Melvyn Goldstein.
"Keutsang Rimpoche's search party encountered some difficulty in bringing its candidate to Lhasa from Taktser in the Kokonor [ie. Qinghai] region, which formerly was a Tibetan territory and now under Chinese administration. The representatives of the Kumbum monastery and the Muslim Governor of Ch'inghai, Ma Pu-fang, demanded proof that the Taktser candidate was the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama." - p.284, Tibet, a Political History by Shakabpa.
These are not only reliable, but probably the best sources on modern Tibetan history. Esiymbro (talk) 10:16, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
One more reference:
Gyalo Thondup and Anne F. Thurston, The Noodle Maker of Kalimpong: The Untold Story of the Dalai Lama and the Secret Struggle for Tibet, PublicAffairs, 2015, 384 p.
P. 25: « A few days after the search party departed, some fifteen soldiers from the army of Qinghai's governor-general, Ma Bufang, suddenly arrived at our house. Ma Bufang was a Hui, a Muslim, from a powerful military family. In 1928, After Chiang Kai-Shek became president of the Chinese Republic, Qinghai (Amdo) had been officially designated a province, and Ma had assumed the post of governor-general. » --Elnon (talk) 12:02, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Ok let me see if I get it; the article currently says he was born in Taktser but according to Embryo should be Hongya, Ping'an, so which one is it? Or are the same place with different names? --Dereck Camacho (talk) 15:42, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Esiymbro and Elnon, those are excellent sources. Thank you. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:20, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
They are the same place. Taktser is more commonly used in the sources, so I see no problem with this. The real issue is the second half of the address, though. Esiymbro (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Which is? --Dereck Camacho (talk) 17:34, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
You mean...? Esiymbro (talk) 17:46, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
More about the Dalai Lama's birthplace. In her book Le vieux Tibet face à la Chine nouvelle originally published in 1953 (and republished in 1999 in Grand Tibet et Vaste Chine, Plon, 1999, p. 979), French Tibetan Buddhist Alexandra David-Néel ventures that the young boy is perhaps "half Chinese" (« peut-être à moitié Chinois »), being "a native of Amdo, a territory administered by China" (« natif de l'Amdo, un territoire administré par la Chine »). --Elnon (talk) 21:31, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

What is the "second half" that you oppose. I don't follow. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 02:58, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Maybe Mongolian (Mongour). The DL looks Chinese. 109.157.169.205 (talk) 04:51, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
Well, when Scotland gets its independence, then those born in Scotland will no longer be born in Britain (and notice I said Britain and not England). People often choose to ignore and "forget" that the term China includes Tibet, in exactly the same way that the polity called the United Kingdom includes the lands of England, Scotland and Wales. 109.157.169.205 (talk) 04:47, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Exemption of Golden UrnEdit

I'm adding this to the text, any comments? Toto11zi (talk) 21:02, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

On January 26, 1940, the Regent Reting Rinpoche requested the Central Government to exempt Tenzin Gyatso from the lot-drawing process of the Golden Urn to become the 14th Dalai Lama.[1][2] The request was approved by the Central Government.[3]

This is what the Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Geng Shuang said:

"The institution of reincarnation of the Dalai Lama has been in existence for several hundred years," Geng added. "The 14th Dalai Lama himself was found and recognized following religious rituals and historical conventions, and his enthronement was approved by the then-central government. Therefore, reincarnation of living Buddhas, including the Dalai Lama, must comply with Chinese laws and regulations and follow religious rituals and historical conventions."[4]

Toto11zi (talk) 21:02, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

I object, as explained in Talk:Succession of the 14th Dalai Lama this golden urn thin doesn't have to be everywhere and is a clear case of Spam. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 00:26, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
The original text was about exemption of using Golden Urn to pick the Dalai Lama, there're multiple sources. What's your reason of not allowing this information to be presented? Toto11zi (talk) 01:56, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm not disallowing anything, but I object the adding of spam, the information seems absolutely irrelevant for the content of the article. In any case, let's see what other users think. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 03:08, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
I think the quote in The Diplomat source is relevant and useful, but the rest of the text you propose lacks context and shows only one side of the story. You might have noticed that I tagged it with lack of neutrality and clarity before when you added it in the article Succession of the 14th Dalai Lama. Toto11zi, please summarize my response before responding, so I know you understand the language used.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:23, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
I am all in favour of retaining the passage about the DL's being exempted from the lot-drawing process. A reminder of what the Golden Urn is, may not go amiss either. --Elnon (talk) 18:49, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Elnon, please also acquaint yourself with the arguments against the On January 26, 1940 passage given by several editors at Talk:Succession of the 14th Dalai Lama.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 23:31, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't agree with Dereck's argument "spam", also I don't agree with Farang's argument "lacks context". From here I can see Elnon agrees to add this info to the page, this info is related to the 14th Dalai Lama only, and this info is not on the page. I would like to request comments from experienced Wikipedia editors who are not biased, again, here's the text I would like to include in this Wikipedia page: Toto11zi (talk) 21:51, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
On January 26, 1940, the Regent Reting Rinpoche requested the Central Government to exempt Tenzin Gyatso from the lot-drawing process of the Golden Urn to become the 14th Dalai Lama.[1][5] The request was approved by the Central Government.[6]
Toto11zi, please also provide reasons when you express disagreement with other editors, for the sake of clarity in discussion and for the purpose of reaching consensus. You have not explained why you disagree with me.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 22:58, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
Toto11zi you can't choose which editors you interact with, you need to reach consensus with all. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 00:58, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b Melvyn C. Goldstein (18 June 1991). A History of Modern Tibet, 1913-1951: The Demise of the Lamaist State. University of California Press. pp. 328 ff. ISBN 978-0-520-91176-5.
  2. ^ "Report to Wu Zhongxin from the Regent Reting Rinpoche Regarding the Process of Searching and Recognizing the Thirteenth Dalai lama's Reincarnated Soul Boy as well as the Request for an Exemption to Drawing Lots - - The Reincarnation of Living Buddhas". www.livingbuddha.us.com.
  3. ^ "The National Government's Decree on the Special Approval of Recognizing Lhamo Thondup as the Fourteenth Dalai Lama with an Exemption of Drawing Lots and the Appropriation of the Expenditure for His Enthronement - - The Reincarnation of Living Buddhas". www.livingbuddha.us.com.
  4. ^ https://thediplomat.com/2019/03/beijing-dalai-lamas-reincarnation-must-comply-with-chinese-laws/
  5. ^ "Report to Wu Zhongxin from the Regent Reting Rinpoche Regarding the Process of Searching and Recognizing the Thirteenth Dalai lama's Reincarnated Soul Boy as well as the Request for an Exemption to Drawing Lots - - The Reincarnation of Living Buddhas". www.livingbuddha.us.com.
  6. ^ "The National Government's Decree on the Special Approval of Recognizing Lhamo Thondup as the Fourteenth Dalai Lama with an Exemption of Drawing Lots and the Appropriation of the Expenditure for His Enthronement - - The Reincarnation of Living Buddhas". www.livingbuddha.us.com.

"14th" vs. "fourteenth"Edit

As far as I can see, according to the Wikipedia Manual of Style in MOS:ORDINAL (which refers to MOS:NUMERAL), Wikipedia spells out numbers from zero to nine in words, in article text. This also applies to titles, according to MOS:AT. That means we should have article titles "First Dalai Lama", "Second Dalai Lama" and so on. Numbers greater than nine, which require two words or less, can also be spelled out, and this should be done for consistency. That means the title of this article should be "Fourteenth Dalai Lama", not "14th Dalai Lama", and this style should be followed throughout the article, and all other "Nth Dalai Lama" articles. "Fourteenth Dalai Lama" is also used by many reliable sources, as cited in the article. Unless someone has another explanation, I would like to propose that this change be made. --IamNotU (talk) 20:53, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Agree. Your reasoning seems sound, and agrees with the guidelines.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:55, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
No objection on my behalf. --Dereck Camacho (talk) 00:59, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
IamNotU, Agree but should be at Tenzin Gyatso. ―Justin (koavf)TCM 02:34, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Return to "14th Dalai Lama" page.