Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 64

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Archive 60

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Archive 62

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Book by main author with contributors, chapters by different authors

Hello, I'd like to get the citations to a book just right. The book has one main author on the cover and then "with [[three other people]". Each chapter has an author or two listed, sometimes including the main author and sometimes not. I am using cite book, and I can't settle on just listing four authors or having the main author be an "editor" and treating each chapter as a separate citation so that the author(s) of the chapter gets credit for writing what I am citing. --JFHutson (talk) 16:40, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I think the best way to go is to use the format listed at Template:Cite book under "Citing a chapter in a book with different authors for different chapters and an editor". The important thing is that the authors of, and the name of, the particular chapter you're citing come first in the reference; but the "In <book title>" is also important, as readers need it to find the book containing the chapter in question. Although the heading on the template page says "and an editor", the resulting citation doesn't actually contain "ed.", so you can list the "main author" in the editor field (or you could list all four as editor1, editor2, editor3, and editor4 if you want—it really doesn't make much difference). Deor (talk) 04:00, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

How to change the title of an article in my sandbox?

Hello. I recently submitted an article in my sandbox. The WP:AFC said to move the article. I can't move it unless I change the title. How do I do this? Thank you. JHUbal27 (talk) 14:06, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

JHUbal27, welcome to the Teahouse. You obviously tried to move the article so you saw the warning message about the need to rename. Try is again but in the box that comes up in the field that says new title change "sandbox" to "Lansdowne Middle School" before clicking Move page. Leave everything else the same. NtheP (talk) 14:43, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.JHUbal27 (talk) 02:07, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

how to add reference or a source on wikipedia?

I've been trying to add <ref> when I need to use it.. And I have also put ==References== {{Reflist}} in the bottom, but I still don't get it.. Can some one show me an example of how to exactly do it?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibrahim888 (talk • contribs)

Ibrahim888, welcome to the Teahouse. The markup you have used is correct and the references are showing correctly. The issue this raises is that your references aren't references just links to other wikipedia articles. Strange as it may sound but Wikipedia is not a reliable source so you need to find better sources for your information. NtheP (talk) 12:23, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

how to add a picture with caption to my article

i want to add picture to my article.i cant upload them.and also how i can place pictures where i want in a article ? Aditi Choudhury (talk) 10:03, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to Teahouse.

Please see Help:Files for uploading files.
Can you clarify i cant upload them? Did you get any error message? Which image you tried to upload? --Tito Dutta (talk) 10:35, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

thanks.i solved it because of your help.thanks very muchAditi Choudhury (talk) 11:54, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

now look i wrote "one of the best.so whats the problem in that?i didnt not said it is the only best institute.thanks for your replyAditi Choudhury (talk) 12:45, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Aditi! The problem with that text is that it is your opinion and it sounds promotional. If it was independently ranked by a reviewing agency, you could say 'X School was ranked as the second best school in the Wintergreen area by Y Accreditors' and that would be a fact, not an opinion. However, you cannot use Wikipedia to promote a marketing pitch - you must write the facts from a neutral point of view. If you cannot be unbiased, because it is your job or you cannot refrain from promoting the subject (it happens), you have a conflict of interest and you should try editing something else instead. I hope this helps - the other host provided some more good tips above. Cheers, Mono 03:50, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia Club for School Students

I am Vaikunda Raja. I had been an active user here in Wikipedia few years back. I am currently working in a School in South Tamil Nadu. We are planning to Launch a Wikipedia Club in our School by which we wish to make Students use and contribute to Wikipedia.

Being making edits here back I am aware of the Editing policy here. But taking it to the student's scale is somewhat different. So what we've to do; and what are the important/brief guideline the students should be made aware of and how do we follow up? -- Vaikunda Raja (talk) 07:00, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi. Welcome to the Teahouse! I am new to Wikipedia, but I'm sure I can give you some valuable info. First, have students create an account because at schools, where IP adresses are public, editing may be blocked. I'm sure you know there's a no vandalism policy. Lastly, have them cite their sources always. Hope this helps! JHUbal27 (talk) 14:24, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The above advice is very sensible and you should also have a read of Wikipedia:School and university projects before starting. NtheP (talk) 14:47, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Vaikunda Raja, I am so glad you came here with this question, and what a great Club you are proposing! I wish you much success. Besides the suggestions made by the other hosts, I would add to "start small". For example, improve an existing article with small contributions for each edit, such as a sentence here or there, adding a header if appropriate, adding a reference, etc. This will give the student a chance to familiarize himself with the ramifications of adding anything. Edit summaries are so important. Uploading an image from Commons into a wikipedia article can be quite an improvement as "a picture is worth a thousand words". Caution your students against adding unreliable External links. Let us know how things go with your new Club! --Rosiestep (talk) 16:49, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

You could have a piece of paper at the school (on a noticeboard perhaps) where the students can sign up with their names and their Wikipedia usernames. (Having this list on Wikipedia is a less good idea because it's wise for school age pupils not to disclose their full names publicly.) This would allow you and other club co-ordinators to check their contributions and their talk pages for problems. (There will be problems, so club co-ordinators checking for them and dealing with them is essential.)

In addition, you should make sure students are aware of what they must not do - WP:COPYPASTE - and also the co-ordinators at least should know about WP:PARAPHRASE. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:14, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

I need to decide whether to accept or decline an article?

Hi. I have recently found this article and I have decided I wanted to accept it, on the condition that it include more citations. I originally declined the article, but now I'm not sure. Can you help me? I know this might be confusing, but I need to decide whether to accept or decline the article. Thanks. JHUbal27 (talk) 05:23, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi, JHUbal! It would appear to me that you should not accept it. All its sources are connected to the organization. Therefore it fails WP:ORG, the applicable notability policy. Notability means that the world has made note of the subject of the article, which is shown by secondary sources, such as newspapers, magazines, TV & radio news, and books. In a quick search, I found at least one book and one magazine talking about the organization. So, yes it can eventually be approved, but not yet. Hope that helps you. Gtwfan52 (talk) 05:57, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Conflict of interests?

I am currently revising several pages in connection with my favorite band, The Legendary Pink Dots. The main project will be to provide a detailed biography, which so far exists nowhere, in any form. Since the history of the band is shrouded in mystery, and the only source of information are a number of interviews that can be found online, I have asked the singer of the band if he can help me shed some light on those large gaps that exist in their CV. However I am now wondering: a) Does it put me at a conflict of interest when the information I use comes directly from "the subject" of the article itself? b) If not and it's okay to use this information, how do I reference it, since all that exists are emails sent between the two of us? Thank you. Karperi (talk) 21:13, 23 December 2012 (UTC) (edit: forgot to log in before posting)

Hey there. They're one of my favorite bands too, actually. Sadly, interviews with anyone in the band falls under original research, so, unless your book is going to be published or your research will be published someplace reliable (i.e. Radar magazine for example) then you can't use it on Wikipedia.

An example of a band that I recently rewrote the article for is Tuxedomoon. Of course, it's not as extensive as it could be, but, I can't write the band and use any information I get from them in the article to fill it out. That's original research and conflict of interest.

There are reliable sources that feature history and information about the band. I'd focus on them, and some books, etc. Good luck! SarahStierch (talk) 21:17, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

That being said, the band might have a scrapbook of articles and reviews that's more comprehensive than what can be found online. Asking if they're aware of any reliable sources you might have missed would be fine. Garamond Lethe 22:06, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Can you give me feedback on an already existing article?

Hello. I have changed and edited most of this existing article. I want some feedback about how to improve the article. Can anyone give me some? I would appreciate it. Thanks. JHUbal27 (talk) 02:11, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello JHUbal27. The article is a collection of lists at present. Wikipedia likes articles to be written mostly in prose with inline citations at the end of the text to which they refer. You have added pdf links to each item in one list. This is not allowed under external linking policy as external links must be limited and confined to the external links section.--Charles (talk) 14:19, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. JHUbal27 (talk) 16:02, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi there JHUbal27 and thanks for your question. I wanted to give you an example of a high school article whose content is in prose format: Carver Center for Arts and Technology. This school is within the same school district. Does this help? --Rosiestep (talk) 17:01, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Combining references and notes

Hello teahouse denizens.

I'm trying to use references within notes. This simple example works fine.

== Article ==

Note this{{efn|name=note1}} and this.{{efn|name=note2}}

== Notes ==

{{notelist|notes=

{{efn|name=note1|Text of note 1.<ref name=ref1 />}}
{{efn|name=note2|Text of note 2.}}

|close}}

== References ==

{{reflist|refs=

<ref name=ref1>Reference1 </ref>

|close}}

However, adding the same reference to the second note causes and error: "Cite error: <ref> tag with name "ref1" defined in <references> is not used in prior text;"

== Article ==

Note this{{efn|name=note1}} and this.{{efn|name=note2}}

== Notes ==

{{notelist|notes=

{{efn|name=note1|Text of note 1.<ref name=ref1 />}}
{{efn|name=note2|Text of note 2.<ref name=ref1 />}}

|close}}

== References ==

{{reflist|refs=

<ref name=ref1>Reference1 </ref>

|close}}

I'm befuddled. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Garamond Lethe 07:44, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Garamond. This is a known bug but with a very low priority of being fixed (it's been on the bug list since mid 2010). I think that here it arises because you are only using the ref named Reference1 within the {{notelist}} rather than in the text of the article. If you change the markup (2nd example only given below) to

== Article ==

Note this{{efn|name=note1|Text of note 1.<ref name=ref1 />}} and this.{{efn|name=note2|Text of note 2.<ref name=ref1 />}}

== Notes ==

{{notelist|close}}

== References ==

{{reflist|refs=

<ref name=ref1>Reference1 </ref>

|close}}

The end reading result is what you seek to achieve but at the expense of the text of the various notes being spread through the article rather than grouped in one place. You pays your money and you takes your choice. NtheP (talk) 12:52, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Ok, good to know it wasn't just me. Thanks! I'll go ahead and inline my notes. Garamond Lethe 18:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

References in headings?

Is there a style preference at Wiki that says not to use a reference in a heading? The heading in question is "Models", essentially listing the various models and their sizes and weights. All the information comes from one source, so adding a reference to every single data point (20-30) seems cumbersome. BeadleB (talk) 04:17, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Beadle. I wouldn't add the reference to the heading, just because it looks terrible. why not add it after the last entry under the heading? Gtwfan52 (talk) 04:21, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi there Beadle and thanks for your question. Yes, avoid putting a reference into a header. I have found that adding an explanatory sentence which includes the reference works well; place it after the header and before the list. Hope this helps. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

How to edit deleted article?

Hey! I'm one of the editors for a recently deleted article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Chordials

Looks like it had some notability issues. If I want to fix this (i.e. add some sourcing) how would I go about it? I can't get access to the page! D:

JfG33 (talk) 23:25, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello and welcome! Unfortunately, the article was already deleted because of the recent consensus and discussion. Deleted articles cannot be viewed and edited but you can create them again. If you are going to create them, make sure that you have enough verifiable sources. You can start them using the Article Wizard wherein it is a step-by-step process on creating articles, it is advised to you because it is merely used by newcomers to avoid future problems. You can also see WP:ORG, WP:GNG and WP:NMUSIC whereas it presents the notability guidelines in such subject. Hope this helps! Thanks! :) Mediran (t • c) 00:21, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

See also WP:AFTERDELETE. Administrators can see deleted articles. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:18, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi JfG33! You can ask an administrator to restore the deleted article to your userspace so you can work on improving it. There's a list of administrators who are willing to do this here. However, the band was not deemed notable enough for Wikipedia, so you would have to answer this concern before moving it by into mainspace, by making clear how it meets the guidelines for bands. Hope this helps, Espresso Addict (talk) 14:40, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

How to add contents on Wikipedia article?

I have created a new article which is live and verified. But the contents are not showing on the specified page. Please help to add contents on my Wikipedia article just like on every article there are contents numbered. Tell me how to do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanpatrick81 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Sanpatrick, welcome to the Teahouse. Having has a look at your contributions I can't see that you've created any articles. Can you tell us the name of it please. NtheP (talk) 22:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I have created an article named "Knowledge and Islam" and want to put the thing just like on the page "Islam" right after under the picture of Kaaba. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.52.128.131 (talk) 09:56, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Sanpatrick, it looks like there is a table of contents at your article right now (it's in the middle below the introduction). However, I must notify you that another editor has started an Articles for Deletion discussion here. They believe it does not meet Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.

I recommend that you read their rationale for starting the discussion, add a comment to the discussion, and attempt to resolve the concerns of the discussion. The article may be deleted if there is a consensus to do so.

Mono 23:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Jweaver28 (talk) 01:20, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

thumbnail size shows in addition to thumbnail image

I finally published a page I created, for Richmond Hill, Virginia, but [[File: Richmond Hill chapel|250px|alt=]] shows under the image. Months ago, I uploaded a photo, that I linked to, but obviously it's too large. How do I link the the appropriate thumbnail without getting the extra size added language.Jweaver28 (talk) 05:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I think I've fixed this. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:14, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Just wanted to show you how the template code changed. Mono 03:36, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.Jweaver28 (talk) 01:21, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Should I make separate articles?

Hi, I have a question: I've been updating some posts about villages and towns in Estonia and added information about the manor houses in the communities, where they have one and there's enough to say about them to make it relevant (and it's been great fun, so now I'm hooked on wikipedia!). However, I recently realised this info should be included into a category, preferably Category:Manor houses in Estonia, but since I haven't made separate articles about the manor houses but merely added info in the article about the village/town/parish, I'm now at loss at what to do. On the one hand, I could include the article about the village (for exmaple), in the category, but that's not exactly right, is it? On the other hand, I could make a whole new article about the manor houses, but it seems silly somehow to write just three-four-five lines about a house and make it an article all of its own (plus it would mean some extra editing skills I'm not sure I have, such as adding maps and coordinates and stuff). What do you think I should do? For an example, see Uuemõisa (borough) which I've boldy added to the category Category:Manor houses in Estonia. Cheers! Yakikaki (talk) 18:26, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Yakikaki. It's great that you're hooked and added referenced material. Good stuff. To my mind considering making articles to populate categories is very much the tail wagging the dog. Categories, while not unimportant, are side notes to articles and mostly behind the scenes stuff. Every article should be in one or more, but they're a secondary consideration and not every aspect of detail included in an article needs to be specified in the categories it includes. That being said, what about broadening the category to a better fit, like "Estonian villages with manor houses" (or something better). I am not an expert on categorization and don't follow debates on the level of granularity that is expected so I would definitely pass that by someone who is (maybe at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Categories). Anyway, more to the point, I agree that making one or two sentence (probable perma-) stubs on singular manor houses would not be the way to go, but what about creating an overview article on Manor houses in Estonia? I know nothing about the topic, but would be willing to help with copyediting, formatting, etc.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 20:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your answer! Now I have a few things to think about :) Merry Christmas!Yakikaki (talk) 22:16, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Notability for an Historic merchant ship

Hi. I am wondering where I could get some information on the notability requirements for an historic merchant ship. The article I am wondering about is Gananoque (ship). It just seems that when all we have on a ship is it docked in New Zeeland a few times, its notability is in question. Is there a standard? WP:GNG really doesn't speak to historic things. Gtwfan52 (talk) 17:55, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Hey Gtwfan, I honestly have no idea. I did find the ship Wiki-Project. It does seem to be fairly active so if you ask on the talk page, you'll likely get a pretty quick response. Good question, though! And Merry Christmas! Go Phightins! 18:03, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Present or Past

For things that don't exist anymore, do you use "is" or "was" when talking about them in the general summary? Are TV shows different? § WiHkibew (talk) § 15:44, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi and welcome to the Teahouse! Generally, I would use "was" (e.g., George Washington was the first president of the United States rather than George Washington is the first president of the United States), but I suppose it could depend on the scenario. For TV shows, I would still use was if the TV show wasn't current, and is if the TV show is current (e.g., Josh Lyman is the Deputy Chief of Staff in the TV Serial Drama The West Wing when the show was still running, but now I would say Josh Lyman was the Deputy Chief of Staff in the TV Serial Drama The West Wing). I hope this helps. Go Phightins! 15:48, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

For an addendum to Go Phightins's advice, regarding the use of the present tense in discussions of fictional works, see WP:TENSE. Deor (talk) 16:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

why is my article being declined

hi im not surte why my article is being declined, last decline was on Dec 20 but a talk user who i cant locate as wiki says they dont even exist and their name is in red. so im very perplexed. Iv done everything including references, and articles about the person and made it pretty comprehensive. Compared to some other articles iv read on living buisiness people mine is very detailed. so im very confused. Thanks to SarahStierch for guiding me to this place bc i really am getting discouraged :( AngelaUAE (talk) 15:32, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse! Having your article declined at AfC can be frustrating. The user who most recently declined your page can be located here, on his talk page. Perhaps he could shed some light on why he declined your page. Merry Christmas! Go Phightins! 15:52, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi AngelaUAE! There are several reasons why your article may have been declined. The most likely reason is notability, in other words, the subject is not mentioned in independent, reliable sources. If you can't do a google search and have pages of reliable sources, the subject isn't notable enough. Hope this helps! JHUbal27 (talk) 20:05, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

responding to editor

I made some changes to a few Wikipedia pages which were reverted by an editor. I want to respond to this editor but can't figure out how to do so.

Kolinuts68Kolinuts68 (talk) 13:58, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse! The best way to respond to an editor is on their talk page. You can get to a user's talk page by typing en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk: and then posting their username after User_talk, but make sure you use correct capitalization, punctuation, etc. as it is case sensitive. Merry Christmas! Go Phightins! 15:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Kolinuts. The easiest way to contact the person is to click on "View history" or "history" at the top of the page you were editing and look for where you believe your edit was reverted. Click on "talk" beside the name of the person who did the reverting.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:11, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Templates?

Hello All, I would like to create a page about a long dead person. I have collected a quantity of data and sources. I have an out of copyright picture of him as well. Many of the events of his life already have Wikipedia pages and as the perpetrator and instigator of these events it is only fitting that he should also have a page. What I lack is a template for a dead person and also a template for an infobox. Is there one? And if so, can someone give me a link please. Thank you. Kiltpin (talk) 13:51, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi and welcome to the Teahouse! I think you're looking for this. This is the infobox for people. There is a parameter that you can add their death date, and it will automatically calculate their age at the time of death. To include interwiki links, simply type [[the page you're linking to]] and a link will appear the page you're linking to. If the page exists, the link will appear blue, like this one: Lorem Ipsum. Merry Christmas! Go Phightins! 15:55, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

image use

I uploaded a photograph for a wikipedia page but mistakenly listed it as non-free, fair use. I am the photographer and I should have selected an appropriate Creative Common license - how do I change this Aaron J Cohen MPH (talk) 12:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Aaron, welcome to the Teahouse. This is easily solved. Edit the page, remove the current sections "Summary" & "Licencing" and insert this code instead

{{Information
| description =  This photo depicts Kiotari, a female Pacific Harbor Seal pup who was a patient at the MMC in July, 2010
| source      = {{Own}}
| date        = 14 July 2010
| author      =  [[User:Aaron J Cohen MPH]]
| permission  =  {{Cc-by-sa-3.0|Attribution details}} }}

You can add to the description as much as you want e.g. spell out MMC in full and should in the licence bit replace "Attribution details" with how you want to be attributed. NtheP (talk) 13:01, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't know where the section, "Summary and Licensing" is Aaron J Cohen MPH (talk) 13:13, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I think you replied in the wrong section, Aaron, so I've moved your reply (& indented it appropriately). There isn't one section called "Summary and Licensing", but Nthep was referring to the two current sections: "Summary" & "Licencing". In File:Kiotari, a Pacific Harbor seal pup.jpg just click on the "Edit" link, and you'll see those sections. - David Biddulph (talk) 13:25, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Fair use?

Help!

I am still tinkering on the breeder reactor article and have found a terrific reference from MIT. However, in the MIT .pdf there are notes that one chart I want to reference is copyrighted, and MIT is using it via 'fair-use.'

Is it cool to include this as a reference? For that matter, assuming it's cool, how do I even include a fair use reference? It's an excellent ref and I'm loathe to try and find another one. Heck, this stuff is so esoteric there may not BE another one. What do?

76.100.248.41 (talk) 21:23, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

76.100 thanks for stopping by the Teahouse. If MIT are using a copyrighted chart then presumably the pdf credits the original copyright holder and/or the previous publication the chart appeared in? If so, then you should try a find a copy of that paper to cite rather than the MIT paper. If you can't find that paper than you can reference the chart as "Chart by X as cited by Y, MIT in etc" NtheP (talk) 22:38, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Ah, thank you very much! The MIT .pdf references only 'Hemisphere', which is a publishing house for technical and engineering books. Unfortunately, that's all there is, not a specific book. I've been poking around the web to try and find this someplace else, and not having any luck.

I'll try and use the format you suggest, that seems more than reasonable.

Thanks for your good advice!

76.100.248.41 (talk) 06:47, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

IDK what to do...

what do i do on wikipedia to avoid getting my edits reversed for "no reason?" i make helpful edits, and idk where to start. i just want to fit in. --Time for a nice cuppa brew (talk) 18:10, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Question moved from bottom of page. NtheP (talk) 18:27, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello Time for a nice cuppa brew, and thanks for dropping by the teahouse! Wikipedia has an immense body of rules for contributions (and each one has its own mysterious acronym). For your Hacker group edits, here's what happened:

You added a link to a wikipedia article that doesn't exist yet (TeamTrap). This can be ok in the body of an article but generally isn't allowed in the "See Also" section (as we're telling the reader to go read an article that isn't there). As was mentioned on the talk page, this rule is spelled out in the wikipedia Manual of Style. No reason that you should have known about this ahead of time.
By adding that link you were implying that TeamTrap was notable enough to warrant their own encyclopedia article. Generally you would want to write the article first and then go back and add links to it in other articles.
The editor who reverted you went out of his way to check if an article on TeamTrap was warranted. For an article to be created it must meet our guidelines for notability, and part of that is finding what we consider to be reliable sources for the text of the article (generally books, magazines and newspapers, but not blogs). As you didn't mention why you thought TeamTrap was notable and didn't provide any sources, and as the editor who reverted you couldn't find any sources, the editor concluded that the TeamTrap page wasn't going to exist anytime soon.

So you had asked where to start. I'd suggest finding a few articles you're interested in, read the talk pages and look at the article history. Find out who the more experienced editors are in those articles and see what else they're working on. Ask questions here at the teahouse, but also read the questions posted here and see if you can find the answers on your own (then check to see if your answer matches the one you were given). You're going to be doing much more reading than writing for a while, but you'll be surprised how quickly the rules becomes second nature.

Hope that helped!

Garamond Lethe 19:12, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

tyvm!! :D

Time for a nice cuppa brew (talk) 18:49, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

how to upload a picture on Wikipedia?

please tell me how to upload a picture on Wikipedia because i am new Salora (talk) 13:00, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello Salora. You will have to wait until your account is four days old and you have made ten edits before you can upload images. You will then be autoconfirmed. It is preferred that images are uploaded to Wikimedia Commons which is where images and other files are kept. They can then be used on other language wikis.--Charles (talk) 14:06, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Click edit page.Then the edit mode comes.On left side there is Toobox.Click it.Below displays Upload File.Click it and follow the instructionsRoyroydeb (talk) 06:46, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Under Construction

I am in the middle of editing an article, but need to leave. I just forgot the "Under Construction" box. What is the code? Thanks 04:00, 26 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PrairieKid (talk • contribs)

Hi, in the future use the code {{Under construction}}. Mono 04:29, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Help fixing coordinates in Muir Woods National Monument

Moved from Wikipedia talk:Teahouse#Edit request on 26 December 2012 and section header added.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:33, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

The current given coordinates for Muir Woods National Monument are for a spot well inside the park boundaries, not near the main entrance. Many people use these coordinates in their gps and end up on Ridge Ave Mill Valley which is the closest point to the given coordinates (from outside the park) but a long way from the main entrance to the park. Every day people drive to Ridge Ave and ask the locals how to get to Muir Woods Park. Please give the correct coordinates of the entrance to the park which are on the Muir Woods National Park Service website (but are not what Wikipedia lists). Therefore, please change the given coordinates from 37degrees 53' 56" N, 122degrees 35' 2" W to 37degrees 53.519' N, 122 degrees 34.254' W. I used "degrees" because I didn't have a degree symbol which, of course, should be used. I also used the same format as in the NPS website--degrees and decimal minutes for the coordinates, not the degrees, minutes, seconds given in Wikipedia.

Plrichardson (talk) 01:52, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Plrichardson! I exercised a bit of WP:BOLD and went ahead and changed it. If the old coordinates would have been to a structure in the monument, I would have started a discussion at Talk:Muir Woods National Monument about changing it, but since it appeares that the coordinates were just some random tree in the middle of the area, I just changed it on my own. Hope that fixes your problem! Gtwfan52 (talk) 04:45, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Newly created articles?

Hi, I'm new. Just asking, is there any way to view a list of newly created articles? Something like the contributions list? 2q2q (talk) 00:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello, 2q2q, does Special:NewPagesFeed meet your needs? --Jayron32 00:31, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Thx, just what I was looking for.2q2q (talk) 00:33, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

My Category was Recently Deleted

Something went wrong when I created a Category for NC-17 rated films: the category I created was in response to the same category that a University of Northern Iowa put on Simple English Wikipedia in 2011, and because of a strong need to highlight the NC-17s in special categories. For some unknown reason, others (I refuse to mention names) decided to delete my category. Is there anything I can do? Usually I perform my edits on Simple English Wikipedia although every now and then I edit the regular English Wikipedia, albeit with strong caution. September 1988 21:05, 25 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by September 1988 (talk • contribs)

September 1988, looking at the deletion discussion (Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 December 17#Category:NC-17 rated films) it looks like reasoning is that there are numerous film rating systems around the world and priority shouldn't be given to any one over any other therefore it's best not to have any. Looking in the archives of Wikipedia:WikiProject Film it looks like it has been debated previously but if you feel it's a topic worth revisiting that would be the place to have that discussion. NtheP (talk) 21:19, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

How to tag that a better source is desired but the content is probably true

(Note: I have more Wikipedia experience than my user page reveals).

I have run into a problem with the various forms of "reference needed" tags: It seems there are lots of ways to tag something as "this might be wrong, please cite a reference", but I have a hard time finding ways to say "This is almost certainly right, there might even be a low quality source, but a better source or citation would be most welcome".

To take the classic example from WP:CITESHORT:

The sun is pretty big (ref citation to unreliable source here)(a better source would be nice). The sun is also quite hot (a good source would be nice).

I am lacking good tags to use in place of "(a better source would be nice)" and "(a good source would be nice)", without attracting big defamatory banners and visits from roaming deletionists searching for completely unfounded claims. Jbohmdk (talk) 17:51, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello Jbohmdk, and welcome. Try {{better source}}. Does that work? --Jayron32 18:07, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks that what I was looking for, but I couldn't find it on the various meta pages discussing the {{citation needed}}, I will go ahead updating my recent edits now. Oh and Merry Christmas. Jbohmdk (talk) 18:12, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup is a good place to go if you need an esoteric tag. And Merry Christmas backactha. --Jayron32 00:18, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Reliable Sources: Face book

I am currently doing a page draft on Black Anvil and they currently have a 4th member now since like November and I only could find their new member's name on their facebook page and they are signed to relapse records and it says on a website page by relapse about them confirming it to be their facebook page. I need to prove it that Sos is the member's name. Is this source okay? BlastBeat4 (talk) 01:32, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you referring to:

"Updated BLACK ANVIL news and album information will be made available at the Relapse Records website and the BLACK ANVIL Facebook page."

If so, I would go with the Relapse Records website. This is just my opinion, but essentially, anybody can say just about anything on Facebook - even on an "official" page. ~Just my 2¢ ~E 74.60.29.141 (talk) 03:59, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Blast Beat. Facebook is never a reliable source for exactly the reason 74 said---anyone can put anything they want on facebook. The label's website is ok to source the members of the band, but you will need some independent sources to show notability, enough to meet the requirements of WP:BAND. Gtwfan52 (talk) 04:19, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I can't find any sources. I got this one though. Which confirms their tweets. It's the only place I can find the new member's name.

-BlastBeat4 (talk) 02:22, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Alright I found one. Read the quote "Sunday October 21, 2012 we play our first ever live show as a 4 piece. It is with great honor we welcome our new comrade, Sos to the fold for this special ritual."

BlastBeat4 (talk) 02:36, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

link to a category?

Is it considered proper to link to a category within the text? For example:

...and there are many metaphors referring to elephants.

~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 21:07, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse! That is an excellent question. I have no idea. I can find out for you, but I imagine both the users who I would ask are not going to provide a fast response as it is Christmas Eve, after all. Let me get back to you on your talk page, if you don't mind. Thanks. Go Phightins! 21:11, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

One of our most experienced content contributors, Dr. Blofeld, told me "Yes, but it usually isn't advisable, most links should point to an article. It should only be done really on a "see also" Category". I'm still waiting to see what the other person who asked says, but hopefully that answers your question. Go Phightins! 21:42, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I did put a link in the "See also" - but that is already overloaded. (The article is currently "Under construction", and is in the "do it now" phase, and will soon enter the "fix it later" phase when stuff gets removed.) ~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 21:51, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

OK...I'll let you know if I get a contradictory reply elsewhere. Go Phightins! 21:56, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

~Thanks ~E : 74.60.29.141 (talk) 02:20, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Another prolific content editor, Drmies, said that he didn't think they usually should be cited in articles, but if they must be, to keep it in the "See Also" section. Drmies and Dr. Blofeld were the two best editors I could come up with to ask. Well, the best editor to ask is retired, so these are #2 and 3. Anyway, Merry Christmas! Go Phightins! 04:21, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks ~ and give my regards to Drmies and Dr. Blofeld and to the Phightins (whoever they are) - :) ~E : 74.60.29.141 (talk) 21:36, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Question regarding reliable sources

Hi, I am working on my first article which was recently reviewed and declined. SarahStierch wrote me a nice messge and suggested I visit the TeaHouse for additional assistance. The reason the article was declined was "This submission is not adequately supported by reliable sources" I have added additional independent sources such as Slate Magazine, The Washington Post, the American Crossword Puzzle Tournament, and others, but I wonder if I need more sources, or the ones I have listed are not considered reliable. Please provide any feedback. Thanks for your help in getting my first article published! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Matt_Gaffney JGellner (talk) 20:03, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse JGellner. Some of the sources there, (Such as blogs) aren't really reliable and I believe thats the reason it was declined. §haun 9∞76 ^༆ 15:53, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Rollback

I have rollback rights, and the rollback button always displays on my Watchlist. And sometimes it's directly above/below the actual link I intend to click.... And one time too many I accidentally press it. Is there any way to minimize the chances of this happening? Bonkers The Clown (Nonsensical Babble) 04:08, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

One option is to have a separate account (linked via userpages) which does not have rollback.

Another, equally incomplete, approach is to disable as many gadgets as you can. (This can help to stop the window jumping up and down...)

The extreme approach is to ask for removal of your rollback rights, and just use Twinkle instead. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 04:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I just might consider that if it happens too often. Yeah, the window always "jumps" Thanks! Cheers, Bonkers The Clown (Nonsensical Babble) 04:23, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

A fourth, slightly less extreme, option is to put in some user CSS code to hide it on the watchlist. To do this, just copy and paste: body[class~=page-Special_Watchlist] .mw-rollback-link {display: none;} into your common.css page, located at Special:MyPage/common.css. That'll get rid of the button on the watchlist, without removing the tool or the rollback button elsewhere. Hope this helps! Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 06:04, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Very good, I think I will do that instead. Thanks for helping! Bonkers The Clown (Nonsensical Babble) 06:09, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Creation user page

Hello, looking for help to link my talk page, contributions, and e-mail using this icon menu page Wikipedia:User page design center/Menus and subpages/Menu15 many thanks FOX 52 (talk) 04:07, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Fox. It's done. Note how I did this--nothing earthshaking, I clicked edit at the design page you linked, copied the code and pasted it into your userpage. Then, in every place where the word "Example" appeared, I replaced with your username. The one thing that could trip you up here is that for the URLs (as opposed to wikilinks) I added an underscore where the space is in your name. Without this the links would break, i.e., I used "FOX_52". Cheers.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Fuhghettaboutit (talk) a million thanks friend I appreciate that very much, and yes quite easy, thanks again cheers FOX 52 (talk) 05:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Glad to help.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:32, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

BLP Master's Degree

Hi there, quick question: If someone has a master's degree on biology and a PhD in theology, is it correct to say - "John Doe is a theologian and biologist"? Ajaxfiore (talk) 01:15, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Ajaxfiore, welcome to the Teahouse! Sure, if you're writing about someone, who..well..is a theologian and biologist. Some people might not actually *do* what their degrees "are" so to say (i.e. "I have a degree in art history but I work for a tech organization doing outreach,"), so, I'd just focus on what the subject does...if John Doe doesn't actively practice biology anymore, but is known pretty much as a theologian, then I'd just call him a theologian and mention someplace in the article that he did get a degree in biology. I hope that makes sense :) SarahStierch (talk) 02:07, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

ok, thanks. Ajaxfiore (talk) 02:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

"Redirected" message, and what do I do with my user sandbox after I've moved message to main Wikipedia space?

I'm a new Wikipedia user. I recently wrote an article first in my user sandbox, and then I moved it to the main Wikipedia space (entitled "Mary Sands"). First I had a problem with an error message, but someone fixed that for me. Now, in my sandbox, at the top, it shows "(Redirected from User:K828/sandbox)." Since I'm finished using the sandbox to work on that project, can I delete what's in it? If so, how?

Would appreciate any help or advice from others more experienced.

Thanks,

K828 (talk) 19:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

K828, welcome to the Teahouse and congratulations on your first article. Redirects like this are always created when you move pages. You can easily edit your sandbox page and delete the text you find there thus removing the redirect. Alternatively you can add {{db-u1}} to the page and an administrator will delete the page for you (you can always recreate it at another time should you need it). 19:28, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. You may have noticed I edited my question above, but your answer is exactly what I was looking for. So, all I need to do is go to the sandbox, hit edit, delete everything, then save?

K828 (talk) 19:32, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

yep :-) NtheP (talk) 19:40, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Now I'm really confused. I deleted what was in my sandbox and someone restored it, with a message saying I needed to put a reason in an "edit summary." So I put a reason and deleted it again. And somebody else restored it immediately. How do I fix this? In addition, I didn't see a way to delete the title it shows, "Mary Sands." I would think my sandbox would go back to the way it was before I put anything on it. Of course, I don't want to do anything that affects my real article on the regular Wikipedia space.

K828 (talk) 20:16, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi K282. It looks like you were deleting the real article by mistake instead of the sandbox redirect. To get to the actual redirect page you need to click the blue link that says "redirected from" just below the article title. I have deleted the redirect for you. You are allowed to delete what is in your own userspace.--Charles (talk) 20:25, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, Charles. K828 (talk) 20:59, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Need help

I need help about pashto wikipedia so who can help me??? some one with name of Khangul has blocked people from writing new articles or translating articles from other languages to my country Pashto , so as i am Academic member of Academy of sciences of Afghanistan and have specielity in urology field , i want to write some article or translate some to pashto but i cant create an account or i cant login in ps. Wikipedia. please help me in this case.
I am waiting for your help... (Mirwice Haqmal (talk) 18:43, 25 December 2012 (UTC))

Mirwice, my sympathies. It sounds like you are in a difficult position. This isn't an area I know too much about but it might be that you need to contact the stewards. You can find details of who they are and how to contact them at meta:Stewards. I hope you get things sorted out. NtheP (talk) 21:28, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I Will try to tel you all story so i hope you may help me: I am using en.wikipedia since long time for finding informations about many topics, so i asked wiki team via these emails to create ps.wikipedia and Afghan people are ready to write Articles or translate Articles from Other languages to their own language Pashto. these two emails replied my email and told me that we have ps.wiki and sent me the link of that page but when i tried to open that page and make an acount their like maked an acount here in en.wikipedia, that page Show me a message that Some one with name of Khangul blocked this (Account creation from this IP address (61.5.196.4) has been blocked by Khangul )so i cant create An acount here, after that i tried to send him an email but i couldnt find his email anwhen i tried to write in his talk page i couldnt do that too because i was not login. It made me realy sad. As i am a doctor and i Know pashto language very well( it is my mother language) i can write many medical Articles and translate many and i can edit many too. I got realy sad when i saw an Article of fever in pashto wrote incorect and i cant edit it.
(Mirwice Haqmal (talk) 7:15, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
I need help please who can help me here in wiki???
Mirwice Haqmal (talk) 14:31, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello Mirwice! I'm sorry to hear about your situation, and I'm afraid there's not much I can do. However, if you go to MetaWiki, the coordinating wiki for our projects, and look for someone with the name Khangul there. Or, go to metawiki (linked above), and look for a "Steward". They may be able to go to ps.wikipedia and unblock your IP or create an account for you there. I'm sorry that you have these problems! If anything didn't make sense, feel free to ask me here for clarification! gwickwire^talk_edits 17:04, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Sources

Hi everybody. I've a question on sources. Can you use a map (e.g. google maps) as a source?Kuba.greenland (talk) 17:45, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello Kuba, and welcome to The Teahouse. It depends on for what purpose. The suitibility of any source is dependent on what exactly it is being used to support. Could you elaborate a bit more? --Jayron32 17:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

I mean if you mention that a certain place is near another etc., then can you use a map as a source.Kuba.greenland (talk) 16:37, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

That would probably be fine to cite a map on, as long as it's unquestionably near. For example, JFK airport in NYC is near water. But if it's something that could be controversial as to whether or not it's truly "near" the other object (JFK airport is near LaGuardia Airport, some say sure, some might say not), then you'd need a different source. See WP:CALC for the policy on routine calculations. I'd go so far to say if something's unquestionably near another thing, it falls under CALC and wouldn't need a source at all. If you tell me what article and what you're trying to add, I can take a closer look fo you. Thanks! gwickwire^talk_edits 17:08, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I recently accepted an article, need to edit it?

On Wikipedia, there are improvement boxes, such as {{refimprove|date=December 2012}}. I recently accepted this article and I think I should add one of these boxes or two. Where can I find a list of these? When I accepted the article, I added it as a stub-class and added categories. Can I add anything else? Thank you. JHUbal27 (talk) 20:41, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse! If you have Twinkle enabled, there's a link to "Tag" under the TW tab. If you click on that you'll get a list of many of them. I believe there's a list here, but you'll have to check it out as I'm not 100% sure. Merry Christmas! Go Phightins! 20:52, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I actually found what I wanted here, but your answer helped me a lot too. Merry Christmas to you too! JHUbal27 (talk) 21:39, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

By the way, can anyone review this article? Thanks. JHUbal27 (talk) 21:39, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and checked that one out for you. I added a {{notability}} and {{advert}} tag to it, but I feel it has a bit too much potential for me to feel good nominating it for deletion. Thanks for the questions! gwickwire^talk_edits 17:55, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, thanks, but now I feel responsible for this. Should I have declined the article? JHUbal27 (talk) 19:39, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Review mid-edit

Sorry if this is a repeat. Can I get a review on a page that I'm still creating? Thanks.

Jlfeuerbach (talk) 06:56, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Could you post a link to the article here?EagerToddler39 (talk) 00:58, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Where do Article Wizard articles go?

Hi,

I'm trying to understand how Wikipedia works, and I have a few questions. I'd really appreciate if someone can help me with them.

1. If I create a page using the Article Wizard, what happens to it? Is there any way to bypass review and send it directly to the article namespace? If not, where does it go for review? It seems that it goes to Articles for Creation, but I thought that was where people post drafts to be reviewed - does the Article Wizard direct there, too? If so, I see there's a backlog there. About how long can I expect it to take before my article is reviewed?

2. Once an article is moved from AfC to the main namespace, will it show up on the Special:NewPages page? Or is considered an old page?

3. When I look at Category:Candidates for Speedy Deletion, I see a lot of pages that were created very recently and nominated for deletion after just a few minutes. Often, they are deleted just as fast. Why, then, do I follow a link from Special:Newpages and find an article that has been deleted, or even tagged for deletion? Do those articles not even make it to Special:Newpages? Should I be looking somewhere else? Are they really patrolled that fast?

Thanks so much - eagerly awaiting your answers.

Polymath49 (talk) 17:29, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Polymath. I will try my best to answer your questions in order:

If you create an article with the Article Wizard, it will go to Articles for Creation (AfC). You can bypass review by moving it directly to the mainspace, or by creating it directly by typing the page name in the search box, typing ↵ Enter, and clicking the create link. The backlog at AfC is getting smaller, and a backlog elimination drive should bring it down to near zero in a few days. I think that if you submitted to AfC, you should have to wait no more than about a week or so.
I'm not 100% sure, but the page was new when it was created in AfC, so it will not show up there. The whole point of Special:NewPages is for users to watch newly-created articles and check them for problems (which AfC is supposed to do).
Articles that don't follow the basic policies (copyright violations, attack pages, vandalism, etc.) will (and should) be speedy-deleted quickly. In many cases, those pages are patrolled within minutes from Special:NewPages, or even Special:RecentChanges.

The Anonymouse (talk • contribs) 18:22, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks so much! Just what I wanted to know. Polymath49 (talk) 18:34, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

"Common Knowledge" Citing

If a piece of information is considered to be "common knowledge" (ex. "Snowmen are made of snow."), does it need to be cited? Thank you. Henrib736 (talk) 16:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Please see the 2 essays called WP:BLUE and WP:NOTBLUE for a discussion of this. Bus stop (talk) 17:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

And please only post a question in one place. There are also answers at Wikipedia:Help desk#"Common Knowledge" Citations. I will link all the places you asked it to there. Please post any follow ups there by clicking the "edit" link to the right of the section heading. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm doubting myself on why I accepted an article

I accepted this article and my name is tagged to it on the talk page. However, the article has multiple issues. How can I fix the issues so that the article won't be so bad? I accepted it because I felt it had potential. Thanks. JHUbal27 (talk) 16:44, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello, JHUbal27, and welcome back! The best answer I can give you is to find good articles on scholarships, see how they're put together, and rewrite this article to match their style. The categories at the bottom of the article should give you a place to start. Garamond Lethe 20:09, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. JHUbal27 (talk) 20:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Adding to a WikiProject

I recently created an article about a play, The Universal Language. I wanted to add it to the WikiProject Theatre, but I couldn't figure out how. Could someone instruct me on how to do so? Aplaster (talk) 15:52, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Aplaster, welcome to the Teahouse. On the article talkpage (Talk:The Universal Language) add this markup {{WikiProject Theatre|class= |importance = }} this will add the article to the categories Category:Unknown-importance Theatre articles and Category:Unassessed Theatre articles and bring it to the attention of editors at WikiProject Theatre. NtheP (talk) 16:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Why does my page not show in searches

I have created a page about Fantom - digital trading cards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantom_-_digital_trading_cards

When I search on the word Fantom it does not show up. But the page is there ok, and it is indexed by Google no problem.

Any thoughts? PabloHealy (talk) 15:27, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Pablo, welcome to the Teahouse. There is already an article called Fantom (as well as FANTOM) so searching for "Fantom" or "fantom" will bring up the Fantom article. However if you starrt typing the second word in the search box then as soon as you get to "Fantom d" then you article is found. With three articles with the same name it's probably time for a disambiguation page to be created. NtheP (talk) 16:53, 27 December 2012 (UTC)