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June 30

A Cato the Elder quote?

Does anyone know the source of the following quote: "Two augurs cannot walk past each other without smiling". (Since they both know what nonsense their predictions are.) It is associated in my mind with Cato the Elder but I'm not entirely confident. I've checked Wikiquote and it's not there. Leaving aside the attribution, does anyone recall a similar saying? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 19:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, attributed to one Cato or another by Cicero in Book 2 of De Divinatione: "But indeed, that was quite a clever remark which Cato made many years ago: 'I wonder,' said he, 'that a soothsayer doesn't laugh when he sees another soothsayer.'" [1]. (Vetus autem illud Catonis admodum scitum est, qui mirari se aiebat quod non rideret haruspex haruspicem cum vidisset.) [2]. --Antiquary (talk) 20:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Cicero refers to Cato the Younger earlier in the same book: "I have also recently thrown in that book On Old Age, which I sent my friend Atticus; and, since it is by philosophy that a man is made virtuous and strong, my Cato¹ is especially worthy of a place among the foregoing books." So it is likely he is referring to the great-grandson. Later he mentions Cato in the list "Cato, Varro,² Coponius or I?". Varro and Coponius were contemporaries of Cicero, so this also points to Cato the Younger.  --Lambiam 09:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Good points, but when I look on Google Books for attributions from modern Classics scholars I only find them naming Cato the Elder, either by name or as the author of De agri cultura: [3] [4] [5]. Is that solely because in that work Cato the Elder told his steward not to consult haruspices? But others were also rather sniffy about them [6]. I'm left in doubt which Cato Cicero meant. --Antiquary (talk) 18:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Cato the Younger was younger than Cicero. If "De Divinatione" is from around 44 BC (when Cato the Younger was about 50) what could "many years ago" mean and which of Cato the Younger's books (did he write any?) would have been written early enough in Cato's life and have given Cato an opportunity to say something about diviners? On the other hand is it possible that the "clever remark" may have been oral (either spoken directly or reported to Cicero)? Even if Cato's saying in Cicero's words feels like written Latin, is it possible that Cicero was parphrasing, not reporting it literally? Incidentally there's something intriguing about a deeply traditionalist guy (both Catos were) being skeptical of and even sarcastic about a matter of religion. A mix of pragmatic skepticism and traditionalism seems to fit Cato the Elder better, doesn't it? Traditionalism in Cato the Younger's time seems to have become too demonstrative and ideological for him to allow himself to mock a matter of religion, doesn't it? 178.51.74.75 (talk) 23:09, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

July 1

French president

[7] Macron is the guy with the white shirt, right? Who is the guy in the baseball cap shaking hands with randoms? Another politican? Do I have them confused? And is the PM of France kind of an irrelevant figure? In other countries with PM's I thought it was the other way around, the PM runs things and the president is a figurehead. Thanks. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 12:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Macron is the person in the leather jacket / the baseball cap, joining Brigitte Macron for part of the take. The guy in the white shirt, shown at the start of the video may be security. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

France is a semi-presidential republic, or dual executive republic in which a president exists alongside a prime minister (from Semi-presidential_republic). There are two competitive readings of the French Constitution, see Constitution_of_France. To me, except may be during "cohabitation periods", the usual interpretation is in favor of a "powerful president". — AldoSyrt (talk) 14:39, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Still, to add to what AlsoSyrt said, the Prime Minister is far from insignificant. Under the previous two Republics, from 1871 to 1958, however, it was the President who was largely a ceremonial figure. Xuxl (talk) 14:46, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

See also Prime Minister of France which says: "The extent to which... decisions lie with the prime minister or president often depends upon whether they are of the same political party. If so, the president may serve as both the head of state and de facto head of government, while the prime minister serves as his deputy". Alansplodge (talk) 16:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all. The guy in the white shirt (starting at 0:11 in the video) resembles photos of Macron that I've seen, so I got confused. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 20:36, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Supreme Court reversing itself more than once

With the current Sup Ct reversing well known earlier decisions, I'm wondering if there are any that it reversed more than once. Like Lawrence v. Texas reversed some earlier decisions, but Justice Thomas proposed that the current court reverse Lawrence v. Texas, so the two reversals would cancel each other out. I'm wondering whether anything like that has actually happened. We have List of overruled United States Supreme Court decisions so maybe I try do a manual self-join, but I figure I'd miss some things, and that such incidents would be known to people into such things. I asked same question in the talk page for that list article before thinking of asking here. That's probably a better place to answer, but if necessary I can relay from here. 2601:644:8501:AAF0:0:0:0:9BB0 (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Guy de Maupassant

My question is fairly simple: did 19th-century French author Guy de Maupassant (1850–1893) ever write about or fictionalize a character in his work based upon Suzanne Valadon? I ask, because W. Somerset Maugham biographer Anthony Curtis (1926-2014), in his 1992 introduction to The Razor's Edge (1944), describes Maugham's character of "Suzanne Rouvier" as "straight out of Maupassant". (Curtis 1992). Prior to this, in the same introduction, Curtis describes her character using an almost identical description of the real-life Valadon, however, nowhere does he mention her name. Additionally, we know that Maupassant and Valadon were contemporaries and frequented the Chat Noir at the same time (Snow 1958). One year before Curtis wrote this new introduction, the World Wide Web went public in 1991. Mosaic popularized its usage greatly in 1993, and by 1995, Netscape unleashed the flood gates. Now, here's where things get murky: from what I can surmise, post-1995, an early website creator named "The Wanderling" read Curtis' 1992 introduction, and started promoting the idea on the web that "Suzanne Rouvier was based on Suzanne Valadon". Fast forward to 2024, and all iterations of this claim appear to trace back to "The Wanderling" and his early website. Which brings me back to my original question. What exactly did Curtis mean by Rouvier being "straight out of Maupassant"? Finally, is there any good evidence besides the website created by "The Wanderling", that Rouvier is based on Suzanne Valadon? Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 21:25, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Note, if anyone wants more intricate details and extended quotations from the above cited works, I have included them at Talk:Suzanne_Valadon#Re:_W._Somerset_Maugham. Viriditas (talk) 21:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

"Straight out of Maupassant" may not mean that Maupassant actually put the character in his works. It may also mean that she lives in a universe similar to that described by Maupassant (and Maupassant does describe 1880s French bourgeois society in great detail, including illicit love affairs and the demi-monde of Paris society to which Valadon belonged). It's almost certain that Maupassant would have been familiar with Valadon, as she frequented the same circles as he did, although she did not gain recognition for her art (as opposed to her modeling work) until after he was confined to an insane asylum in 1892. Given that Maupassant wrote over 300 short stories in addition to six novels, it's hard to say if Curtis is referring to a specific character. Xuxl (talk) 13:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, it means typical of the author's characters or plotlines; see also "straight from Kafka", "straight out of Dickens", "straight out of Steinbeck" and "straight out of Orwell". Alansplodge (talk) 15:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I concur, but I thought I would give it a shot.

Resolved

Viriditas (talk) 18:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Novelists commonly use aspects of people they know (including themselves) for modeling their fictional characters. It is very possible that Maupassant modeled some aspect of some of his characters with Valadon in mind. Independent of what Maupassant may have done, it is also possible, and definitely not per se unlikely, that Maugham used Valadon as a model for his Suzanne Rouvier.  --Lambiam 19:21, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course, but we are trying to source this on the Valadon page, and all I've been able to find are circular references to "The Wanderling" web site, which was published just a few years after Curtis' introduction, hence the connection. I'm curious if anyone tried to connect Valadon with Maugham's character prior to 1992. Viriditas (talk) 20:35, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

July 2

"Organization of Emerging African States"?

I'd like some decent independent WP:RS about what this org is.[8][9][10]. They have a website, but my browser don't think I should go there. Mentioned at List of active separatist movements in Africa. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:51, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

From a quick look it seems to be an initiative created by Ebenezer Akwanga, a separatist from Cameroon who has lived in exile in Nigeria, hence probably the mention in Nigerian sources you link. Whether it is much of a movement, or just an internet platform connecting activists, I am less able to tell. Newsweek reports it is operating from the US. CMD (talk) 10:28, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Found something:[11] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

What letter do use use for B on an upside down calculator??

The article Calculator spelling says 8. But this page http://www.hakank.org/upside_down_number_words says 9. Who is right?? Georgia guy (talk) 21:49, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Uppercase “B” is 8

Lowercase “b” is 9

Blueboar (talk) 22:04, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Blueboar, that's not what the Wikipedia article says. It says 9 is G. Georgia guy (talk) 23:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

You do understand that you are asking for definitive answers about what is basically modern folklore? You might as well ask whether the song is actually hokey-cokey or hokey-pokey. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

It may be that there is a “calculator generation” gap in play, between the blockier “font” of old calculators, and more modern ones that have a more rounded “font”. But ask anyone who was a child in the 1960s what 5319009 spelled when you turned your calculator upside down, and they knew the answer was “bOObIES”… it was the height of 6 year old humor! Blueboar (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

In the 1980s it was 5318008. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 01:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Looked at the diagram in our article… and realized that the 9 depicted there has a horizontal bar at the bottom… the calculator I had in the 60s did not. This may account for the difference in tradition. Blueboar (talk) 01:37, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Upside down, "9" turns into a "6', which in calculator spelling is a lowercase "b".  --Lambiam 08:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

A half rotation of a calculator 9 produces Б, at least on Casio and Texas Instruments models. At least in my memory, which is incredibly faulty. Folly Mox (talk) 11:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

July 4

History of pre-electricity lighting in India

I couldn't find any info on the History of pre-electricity lighting in India, Indoor Lighting, Outdoor Lighting, Street lighting, Commercial Building lighting, Royal Residence lighting, Residential lighting, the various equipment used, fuels used, historic records, illustrated historic references like engravings. 2405:201:F00B:3879:D464:2331:428A:6F4D (talk) 07:28, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Ordinary people often used Oil lamps, as was done in various parts of the world, though an Indian variation on the theme was that Ghee was often used in the lamp. See Diya (lamp), Nilavilakku, and Nachiarkoil lamp... AnonMoos (talk) 16:41, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Bombay Lights: Gas Light and the Transition to a Modern City (for access, ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request or you may be able to access through the The Wikipedia Library)

Contested nightscapes: Illuminating colonial Bombay

Alansplodge (talk) 22:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

You may also be interested in the Journal of Gas Lighting (p. 139) which has a report of an 1855 proposal by the Oriental Gas Company to install the first gas lighting in Calcutta. It points out that "public and private" exterior oil lamps in the city cost over £65,000 annually. Alansplodge (talk) 22:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Did/does India have candles? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Are bears catholic? Does the pope... nah. Try "History of Wax-Candles in India (AD 1500–1900)" (ex-jstor) or our History of candle making. MinorProphet (talk) 22:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I just wondered, because no one had mentioned something so obvious as candles. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:35, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Death by jogging at a literary conference

In this interview, at the end of 1982, Anthony Burgess mentions having been to "a big magazine conference in Puerto Rico. I had to address the audience there, and being Americans they had to begin every morning with a jog. Two people died of heart failure on this jog who were younger than I. They tried to persuade me to go along on this jog. But in the tropics? In the tropics, even at 6.30 am? Oh no. A couple of people collapsed and apparently died, at least they disappeared. Whether they’re being artificially supported somewhere I don’t know." So what was the conference and who died, or was disappeared? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 19:08, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The inventory of the Anthony Burgess Papers held at the Harry Ransom Center mentions, under "Index of Correspondents", "American Magazine Conference".^[12] Online sources mention an American Magazine Conference, held in October 2005 in Puerto Rico. These annual conferences were organized by the Magazine Publishers Association, founded in 1919. Perhaps an earlier installment was also held in Puerto Rico.  --Lambiam 07:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I just want to point out that "death by jogging" was a huge meme in the 1980s. I think it started way before that, but given the historical popularity of jogging as a cultural phenomenon, it was widespread. If you’re too young to know what I’m even talking about, then watch Forrest Gump. Viriditas (talk) 01:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

July 5

What label can be given to John Marshall's judicial review philosophy,

Can a label as used now, like constructionism or textualism or pragmatism or "living constitution"alism or originalism be applied to John Marshall's philosophy on the U.S. Constitution? From the article on John Marshall I copied this quotation, but I'm not sure how moden labels would apply:

"To say that the intention of the instrument must prevail; that this intention must be collected from its words; that its words are to be understood in that sense in which they are generally used by those for whom the instrument was intended; that its provisions are neither to be restricted into insignificance, nor extended to objects not comprehended in them, nor contemplated by its framers—is to repeat what has been already said more at large, and is all that can be necessary."

Rich (talk) 04:14, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

To me, this sounds like words spoken by an originalist. Marshall may at the same time have been a strict constructionist; the quotation does not speak to this question.  --Lambiam 06:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Has the goddess Saraswati ever been nicknamed Svati before?

Over a month ago, I came across a web series called Ghee Happy which portrayed characters based on Hindu deities. The theme song describes the four protagonists (who are depicted as schoolchildren) as follows:

Ganesha! He likes to eat!
Ganesha: Sweet!
Kali! She likes to scare!
Kali: [makes a roaring noise at a lion]
Krishna! He likes to play!
Krishna: All day!
Saraswati, super smart!
Saraswati: I like music, books and art. My friends call me Swati!

However, I've found out that in a Hindu context, Svati usually refers to either one of the wives of the Moon or the nakshatra associated with Arcturus, so I believe the "my friends call me Swati" part of the theme song may have just been one of the artistic liberties taken by the producers. (along with Kartikeya being Ganesha's big brother, Dvaraka being held up by balloons, and Ravana being 3 years old in Krishna's time, to name a few other examples) – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

"Saraswati gives better blessings in long run than Lakshmi..."--Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 02:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

July 6

Slave ship Lawrence

There's an article in today's Wall Street Journal regarding a controversy over the Clotilda, supposedly the last slave ship to reach the United States, in around 1859-60. A historian, Erik Calonius, claims that the slave voyage was a hoax, and the last slaver to reach the US was actually the Wanderer in 1858.

Our article on the Clotilda does not mention the controversy, which may be fair enough; Calonius himself seems to acknowledge that this is the standard narrative and it wasn't clear to me from the article how much traction the theory has gotten in the historian community.

But one point caught my eye: The article says that Booker T. Washington claimed that the last slave ship to reach Mobile, Alabama was the Lawrence, in 1862 (later than both the above dates). I can't find the Lawrence in our list of slave ships, and my Googling has not turned up much. Does anyone know anything about this Lawrence? --Trovatore (talk) 19:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

People exist today directly descended from both Clotilda slaves and Clotilda enslavers, so I don't really understand how anyone who's watched The Order of Myths could think it's a hoax... AnonMoos (talk) 20:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The article goes into some detail (not a lot, but some) on Calonius's reasons for thinking it was a hoax. I'm not qualified to evaluate that aspect of it, at least not without a lot more work than I actually plan to put into it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The Story of Slavery p. 17. It might be worth investigating Cornelia Lawrence 1854 New York for Lawrence, Giles & Co. She apparently hauled passengers Liverpool to New York but burned 2 Nov. 1858 in Mobile Bay under mysterious circumstance while carrying a cargo of hay? Pretty thin tho. fiveby(zero) 02:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oops article is referring to Washington in ‘’The Story of the Negro’’ p. 104 Two different stories and each seems unlikely. fiveby(zero) 03:56, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, 5/0. While Washington makes an unqualified claim that slaves were landed in 1862, it's surrounded by various "It is said" and "I have been told" kind of anecdotes, so I agree this doesn't seem like much to go on. --Trovatore (talk) 05:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

It seems extremely unlikely. Mobile was under blockade in 1862, and the Confederate efforts to get cargo through it relied heavily on the British Empire both to build ships in the UK and harbour them in the Caribbean. Hard to see them risking winding up the Brits by trying to ship slaves, or using up valuable cargo space that could be used to ship military supplies. Chuntuk (talk) 08:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

July 8

Haruspex

The earlier discussion here about auguries from intestines brought back a vague memory of a haruspex finding an appalling sign (deformity/wormy) but the people pressing ahead with the significant project nonetheless, only to end in disaster. I've been Googling for it without luck, probably because I can't remember if it's the Romans or some other ancient people, and I can't remember if it was for a battle or something else. Does this ring a bell with anyone? It's also entirely possible I read it in fiction! --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 10:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

This book [13] seems to have a few pointers in that general direction (p. 112), maybe your episode is covered there? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:57, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

We have articles on Omen (ancient Rome), Augury, and Augur, but only a relatively generic aticle on Haruspex. -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like Marcus Licinius Crassus and the Battle of Carrhae. There were said to be numerous omens against the undertaking; see Plutarch's Parallel Lives on Crassus [14]. A couple of examples:

• The seers, also, quietly let it become known that the omens for Crassus which came from their sacrifices were always bad and inauspicious. But Crassus paid no heed to them, nor to those who advised anything else except to press forward.
• And finally, when he p375 was making the customary sacrifice of purification for the army, and the seer placed the viscera in his hands, he let them fall to the ground; then, seeing that the bystanders were beyond measure distressed at the occurrence, he smiled and said: "Such is old age; but no weapon, you may be sure, shall fall from its hands."

There's also Publius Claudius Pulcher (consul 249 BC) throwing the sacred chickens into the sea, which is a memorable episode although it's not the one you're looking for. --Amble (talk) 16:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Amble that's terrific and interesting, but I'm looking for an occasion when the entrails were disgusting in some way and plainly foretold disaster to everyone who saw them, rather than a procedural glitch like that. I might need to go backwards, looking at notable Roman calamities like the Varus disaster. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 07:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

July 9

A sudden shock, and London is changed to the Antipodes

I am reading "A Fragment of Life" by Arthur Machen. Darnell, who is (or thinks he is) a clerk in the City, "was indeed almost in the position of the man in the tale, who, by a sudden electric shock, lost the vision of the things about him in the London streets, and gazed instead upon the sea and shore of an island in the Antipodes". What is the tale that the man was in? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know, but I hope it's not excessively pedantic to point out that the literal 180° antipodes of the great majority of land on earth (including London) is deep ocean, as can be seen in File:Antipodes LAEA.png etc... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:24, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The term the Antipodes (used as a proper noun, with a capital A) may refer rather loosely to the southern hemisphere. This corresponds to the sense of Ancient Greek ἀντίποδες, a plural, which did not have the restricted meaning of a precise location. Then there are the Antipodes Islands, often referred to as just "the Antipodes".^[15][16][17] Possibly, the gazed-upon island was one of the numerous islets of the Antipodes Islands.  --Lambiam 06:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes indeed, "a little rock to the south of Antipodes Island". I'm pretty sure the story Machen referred to must be H. G. Wells's "The Remarkable Case of Davidson's Eyes" (1895). --Antiquary (talk) 07:03, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, that looks like it must be it. DuncanHill (talk) 19:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Israel-Hamas War article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Why doesn't the "Israel-Hamas War" article mention the estimated number of Palestinians who've fled Gaza to Egypt during the war? According to Reuters - it's around 100,000 people.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-embassy-seeks-temporary-status-gazans-who-entered-egypt-during-war-2024-05-02/

Also, the Wikipedia article doesn't mention the fact that Palestinian refugees are charged thousands of dollars by Egyptians to cross the border.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/jan/08/palestinians-flee-gaza-rafah-egypt-border-bribes-to-brokers

Thanks. 46.121.212.58 (talk) 01:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Feel like questions that should be asked of the editors on that article. --Golbez (talk) 02:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The first is significant, the second not so much, but you yourself could add them to the article. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:35, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 07:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

However, in this particular case, both article and talkpage have WP:BLUELOCK. 46.121, unless you register and stick around for awhile, Wikipedia:Requests for page protection/Edit may be of interest. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

• See WP:CT/A-I and WP:ECR before telling IPs to go off and improve articles relating to Palestine and Israel. DuncanHill (talk) 12:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

The OP IP geolocates to the Middle East. What could go wrong? :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

People locating to Earth tend to have strong feelings in the matter. Tying the suggestion of a risk of non-NPOV edits to the Middle East is uncalled for.  --Lambiam 15:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I assume you're talking to Gråbergs Gråa Sång and/or DuncanHill, who issued warnings to the OP IP. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:26, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I was warning the long-established editors who were giving duff advice to an IP. I'll give you one too Bugs for being a typical ignorant American if you like. Or might it be unfair to assume that because you are from a particular locale, you share particular characteristics? DuncanHill (talk) 19:32, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

It's me that gave duff advice on this. As I try very hard not to edit in contentious topics, I wasn't aware of the scope of the restrictions. My apologies to the IP. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 12:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GEORGE WASHINGTON'S PROCLAMATION OF NEUTRALITY

What were some of the consequences from that formal announcement in 1793? Afrazer123 (talk) 20:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

See: Proclamation of Neutrality, which discusses it. Blueboar (talk) 21:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

New York City Civilian Heroism Award

I'm trying to put together a biography of Will Spens in my sandbox, but I don't have access to newspapers.com so it's slow going. One thing I'm still trying to track down is an award that was informally referred to as the "New York City Civilian Heroism Award", which he received. My guess is that it goes by another name, which is why I can't find any mention of it. I suspect there is some kind of coverage of Spens getting the award on newspapers.com through the Wikipedia Library, but I can't look. Viriditas (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: Perhaps it is the Bronze Medallion? If you need access to sources, try WP:RX RudolfRed (talk) 01:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that’s what I thought too, but I couldn’t find a historical list of all medal recipients. The subject would have won the award some time between 1970 and 1990. Viriditas (talk) 02:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

July 10

Animals in mouse stories

(For clarification, a mouse story is defined as a story with talking animals that is centered on mice.)

We know that cats are often associated with evil in mouse stories. I understand why this is standard. But dogs in mouse stories sometimes represent the need to save mice from cats. Is this logical?? Do dogs often save mice from cats in real life?? If not, then why is it standard in mouse stories for dogs to be used to save mice from cats?? (I want an answer from someone who is a real expert on mouse stories.) Georgia guy (talk) 15:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

If you wait for "a real expert on mouse stories" here you could be waiting a long time. Some examples would help. Recalling Tom and Jerry I would suggest that the dog is more interested in getting at the cat, and the consequent saving of the mouse is incidental to that. Shantavira|^{feed me} 15:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The creators of the North Korean Squirrel and Hedgehog animated cartoon (semi-notorious among some anime fans) apparently worked out a whole elaborate theory of allegorically good and evil animals... AnonMoos (talk) 16:07, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

In the Krazy Kat stories, a dog tries to protect a cat from a mouse.  --Lambiam 20:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. That strip was a weird kind of love triangle. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:05, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Do dogs often save mice from cats in real life??

Surprisingly, this is a good question, it is easier for some breeds of pet dogs to be friends with pet rodents in the home than it is for cats, which appear to naturally want to hunt, torture, and consume them. Obviously, there are some breeds of dogs that will do this too, but there's lot of people who have dogs that don't kill mice, while cats are more prone to just freaking out and getting murder-ish. My guess is that the trope of dogs saving mice from cats arose from this, but is also a way to show that dogs are friendlier and more social with people, and by extension with other animals. Let's also remember the most important thing: in the last 9,000 years, cats were not domesticated like dogs, hence their wild predilection. Viriditas (talk) 21:28, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The notion of "good" mice as victims of "evil" cats is opposite of reality: mice are pests, and cats help get rid of them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:51, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Don't Panic! The Magratheans are intradimensional beings who take the physical form of mice. What you call "pests" are responsible for building and maintaining the Earth. Be nice to them, they are working on computuational problems of such complexity your puny human mind can't possibly comprehend. Viriditas (talk) 21:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Although not directly related to the question, altruism in animals may be of interest here. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

For an alternative view, see Ratter (dog). DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 18:39, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Nested Egyptian texts

Lepsius Neferhotep.jpg

This image, charmingly, has a hieroglyphic document within a hieroglyphic document. Are there any more examples like this? Temerarius (talk) 17:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Charming as the image may be, I question the characterization as being nested. The image is that of a scribe holding a document with a text. The image is accompanied by an image caption, a brief text explaining the image. As was then usual, such a caption was not placed above or below the image frame, but written inside it (like film subtitles today, but with a freer placement). In this case, the whole is a wall painting; classifying it as a document is stretching the concept.  --Lambiam 21:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Well they're at different scales, and it's interesting anyway. Why can't a wall painting be a document? Temerarius (talk) 04:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it can. The Wiktionary entry's definitions 2 and 4 do, I think, cover such wall paintings.

I am also not certain whether the 'caption' to which Lambiam refers actually is the black on white script, or the (more usual) coloured script below it. I would have interpreted the former as part of the illustration: however, not being conversant in heiroglyphics or ancient Egyptian, I cannot tell. Any Egyptologists present? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 06:50, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I meant the larger coloured hieroglyphs. The white object is part of the depicted scene: a scribe holding up a result of his labour.  --Lambiam 14:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

In which case, how is that depicted result, a document written in hieroglyphs, not nested within another document, the painting, also (partly) written in hieroglyphs, as Temerarius originally observed?

Tangentially, do you consider mediaeval illuminated manuscripts to be documents? Some of them also include illustrations of documents, which would also be 'nested'. The substrate of a document, whether parchment or wall, is surely unimportant. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 08:38, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

終戦後の1949年に中国で製造が継続されていた6.5mm×50SR弾の包装。名称も三八式機関銃・小銃弾となっている

Consider the document shown here to the right. Is this an example of a document in Oriental characters within a document in Oriental characters?  --Lambiam 13:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Censored paragraph in Commentarii de Bello Civili

Hello, is there a paragraph about sex in Caesar's Commentarii de Bello Civili? My father told me it was censored at school in early '50s.-- Carnby (talk) 22:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I can only say that there was no such paragraph extant in the small section of the work I studied in the late '60s, but as it was about the Siege of Massilia, one wouldn't have expected it to.

Certainly Latin school textbooks could be censored in such a way. I recall our Latin master reading us one of Horace's Odes that was, along with a few others, excluded from the copies available to us impressionable lads. It mentioned a slave being forced to bugger his master and "meeting yesterday's dinner coming the other way." Possibly III.6? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.82.201 (talk) 08:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

His edition may have said something like "edited for the use of schools" which while it could mean "with any passages that might embarrass the masters removed" but could also mean "with an index and a gloss of the hard bits". DuncanHill (talk) 10:14, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Nothing to do with Caesar, but when I was taking an undergraduate Latin class about reading the poems of Catullus, there were only 3 or 4 students in the class, and we didn't all use the same book, and in the edition used by one of the students some lines of one of Catullus's poems was omitted! This was not a book intended for high school students, and not necessarily a textbook as such (probably more of scholarly edition), and likely published after the 1950s, but it was still censored to some degree... AnonMoos (talk) 12:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

July 11

Law about 'Maintenance for dependent'

There seems to be some important ruling/update from Supreme Court of India about 'Maintenance for dependent' (specially rights of divorcee women) including under section 125 of Indian CRPc code. (Ref)

My primary google search and understanding suggests, "Section 144" under new Bharatiya Nagarik Suraksha Sanhita (BNSS) replaces earlier section 125 of Indian CRPc code since July 1, 2024.

Help I am requesting is

1) Present WP article seems to provides this link to BNSS law

There may have been versions prior to Parliament passed the final bill, my wish is confirm the link WP article is accurate enough. Please help confirm accuracy of above given link as presently applicable BNSS law in India.

2) Please also give links of en WP articles related to 'Maintenance for dependent Law' (incl. Women) to confirm updates to the relevant articles.

3) I am just curious if en WP has any non-country specific general articles relating 'Maintenance for dependent'

Thanks Bookku (talk) 05:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It's more commonly known as Alimony and/or Child support. In India in the 1980s, there was the infamous Shah Bano case (there doesn't seem to be much about it in Wikipedia), where Muslims held numerous protests and rallies against the idea that Muslim divorced wives were entitled to alimony... AnonMoos (talk) 08:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

In the States of America which first cousin with opposite sex cannot merry, can first cousin with same sex merry?

In the States of America which first cousin with opposite sex cannot merry, can first cousin with same sex merry? For first cousin with same sex, genetics isn't even an issue. I only know that for Illinois, the answer is “no”, see [18] and [19], but how about the other 30 States of America which first cousin with opposite sex cannot merry? 2402:7500:92C:19CD:A1F0:F846:FD54:2CEF (talk) 09:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

They can certainly "merry" if they're of a mind to. Whether they can marry is likely to vary by state - of which there are 50, not 30. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

See Mary-marry-merry merger. Alansplodge (talk) 13:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article on that. See: Cousin marriage law in the United States. Blueboar (talk) 13:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can see that article doesn't mention same-sex marriages at all, which is what they are asking about. Obviously not all the considerations are the same. Johnbod (talk) 13:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It may not be explicitly mentioned in the laws of particular states. If one law states that first cousins cannot marry (without clarifying language on the sexes of the couple) and another law states that same-sex couples can marry (without clarifying language on the degree of relation of the couple), then it follows that same-sex first cousins cannot marry and it would require an explicit declaration in law to say otherwise. -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

But same sex first cousin marriage need not to consider eugenics. 220.132.216.52 (talk) 09:24, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

True, but unless that was specifically mentioned in the law against cousin marrige it would have no legal weight. To qualify for a legal marriage, the couple must meet all legal requirements and not fall under any prohibitions. One disqualification renders it illegal.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Could you add same-sex first cousin marriage to the table in this article? Thanks. 220.132.216.52 (talk) 09:26, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The "30 states" in the question refers to those states (in addition to Illinois) where cousin marriage is largely or entirely illegal. From our article Cousin marriage law in the United States " It is illegal or largely illegal in 31 states and legal or largely legal in 19." -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Googling the subject, a sampling of states reveals that the laws about opposite-sex cousins marrying are not necessarily the same as same-sex cousins marrying, so we can't draw any inferences. They would have to be researched state-by-state. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

For a related question, see Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 February 22 § Are there any country which same-sex marriage is legal, sibling with the same sex can also marry?.  --Lambiam 14:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

July 12

Fulltext access to 1970s South African newspapers

Errol Musk is a former anti-apartheid member of the 1970s and 80s Pretoria city council. In 21st-century English-language sources, he has been covered in-depth for his controversial relationships with famous family members, but to create a BLP on him, we really need fulltext access to an archive of 1970s South Africans daily newspapers like Die Burger or Pretoria News.

Looked in The Wikipedia Library, but not seeing it. Did I happen to miss it? Feoffer (talk) 10:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The place to ask is WP:REX... AnonMoos (talk) 12:15, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Parents of Andrew Jackson

> Was Andrew Jackson Senior a U.S. citizen? > Wikipedia does not mention whether the father, Andrew Jackson Senior, and mother, > Elizabeth Hutchinson Jackson, of President Andrew Jackson were U.S. citizens. 47.146.79.188 (talk) 15:13, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Andrew Jackson Senior died in 1767, so he could not have been a US citizen. I'm not aware of a source that goes into it, but Elizabeth could reasonably be considered a US citizen after 1777, since she was a free inhabitant of the states that joined in the Articles of Confederation. She died in 1981. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:39, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Probably 1781. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Andrew Jackson Junior was also not a natural born citizen, but was considered a US citizen in 1789 when the US Constitution took effect. Like his mother, he presumably formally became a citizen when South Carolina ratified the Articles of Confederation on February 5, 1778.  --Lambiam 19:51, 12 July 2024 (UTC)