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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bayern Munich 1–2 Norwich City (1993)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 22 June 2020 [1].

Bayern Munich 1–2 Norwich City (1993) edit

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC), Dweller (talk), Harrias (talk)[reply]

A joint effort between a Norwich supporter (Dweller), a fierce rival supporter (The Rambling Man) and a great independent author (Harrias), this is a tale of how a club with virtually no European football pedigree toppled one the mighty powerhouses. It's hard to put into perspective the impact this game had on the history of Norwich City, but the votes of the club supporters say it all, along with the legendary status attributed to Goss and his volley. The article just passed GAN, content exceeded what was required by quite a bit, so humbly presenting this to FAC with the promise that all comments will be addressed as soon as possible. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski edit

Lede
  • Is the year disambiguator neccesary? Whilst there might be other matches played with that exact score (although, likely friendlies), it seems unlikely to be confused.
    No, I don't think so. It's been discussed on the talk page for about a decade and has been moved forth and back. Happy to garner a consensus here. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:40, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • If it has been discussed to death already, it's fine. I'm not a fan of unnecessary disambigators Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:05, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The football match - as above, although the other way around, surely it should be "A football match", as there would have been other matches, unless you said "The football match between Norwich and Munich in the second round of the 1993 UEFA Cup was played..."
    Reworded entirely. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:40, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • is considered the greatest goal in Norwich's history - I'm assuming by Norwich and Norwich fans?
    Yes, it says that in the main article, the lead is a summary. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:40, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the lede could do with a bit of an expansion for a FA. Maybe comment on the first round, maybe that this was Norwich's last appearance in the competition, and perhaps more than just the Norwich reaction to the win
    Agree, will try to enhance lead. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:40, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Lee Vilenski I've done that now. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
general
Lee Vilenski I think we've either implemented, responded to, or both, to each of your comments. Please review and let us know how you feel. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from mujinga edit

Hiya, some quick comments on readability and comprehensiveness.

Lead

  • I'm sure this is just a result of recent edits, but right now the first sentence doesn't read well. It's currently: "The football match between Bayern Munich and Norwich City was played at the Olympiastadion, Munich, on 19 October 1993, on 4 March 1995 as part of the second round of tbe 1993–94 UEFA Cup finished in a 2–1 victory for the English side." It would need "the" for "tbe" and perhaps "and" in front of "finished" but on top of that I think it's got garbled somehow. In any case, I would suggest starting with "Bayern Munich 1–2 Norwich City was the result of a football match on ..."
    I'm reluctant to take your last option up, and have fixed the typos and grammar errors which are (a) a result of my shite Macbook Air keyboard dying and (b) my rush to fix other comments. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:57, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"on 19 October 1993, on 4 March 1995 " is still confusing me. Mujinga (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Blew that, my copy/paste error. Fixed now. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
i guess i was pointing towards requesting greater coverage, but the recent edits improve that! Mujinga (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-match

still three aways, but i agree it's better Mujinga (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Removed one more of those. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Second half

Post-match

  • 'Jerry sinks the Gerrys' is the headline reported by the Independent but it would be good to add some other reviews to back up saying "the British media were less guarded"
    Added some. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
great, for "Canaries stun Bayern with sensational win" can you add the work? (hopefully not an aberdeen paper) Mujinga (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added, Newcastle Journal for a nice change! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overall, I can infer from the article why this was a significant victory for Norwich, but I would prefer the legacy section (and/or reactions) to draw this out a bit more. There could be more statements on what it meant for Norwich/Bayern/UEFA football from commentators, newspapers or players. For example there seem to be various autobiographies available of Norwich players: Gunn's is cited but not regarding the legacy; there's a bit from Goss but could be more; Chris Sutton's Paradise And Beyond: My Autobiography is not cited.
    Dweller as befits all of these generous reviews, I'll leave some scraps for you and this seems like a good one. My shelves are full of Alf Ramsey, Bobby Robson etc, so maybe you can help here?! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mujinga (talk) 20:49, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I've read Sutton (and Goss) and they offer little that is incisive and nothing useful for this article. I think we've covered throughout the article the impact it had on Norwich and the reactions in the UK. The German reaction is more difficult to ascertain, partly because of the language barrier, but we have, with the help of Kante4 and (some years ago) a de: editor, trawled the German press, notably the specialist publication Kicker. I think we've sucked the juice out of that too. The Germans just seem to have said 'Norwich played well, we made some mistakes' and then just carried on winning trophies. I think we've reflected that. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:13, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
hiya you guys are for sure the experts here, this is far from my specialist area, I'm just trying to suggest the legacy could be drawn out a bit more. thanks for the answer on the biographies, i could also highlight that for example bayern memories mentions that Norwich made a commemorative video and lists the other english clubs who tried and failed to beat bayern at that stadium, so i still feel more could be added Mujinga (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dweller a commemorative video no less!! Probably worn out in your Betamax, perhaps you could add some hysterical adoration?? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:48, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mujinga many many thanks. I've addressed (I believe) all bar the last comment which I'll leave to my esteemed colleague. Please let me know if you're happy with work thus far and if there's anything else beyond that last outstanding comment you'd like to see addressed. Cheers, The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
cheers TRM, it's funny for the boot to be on the other foot after your heroic efforts on good articles. i've replied to a few comments, see what you think Mujinga (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mujinga always a pleasure, I've fixed the issues you noted above other than the expansion of the legacy section which really needs input from a budgie....!!! Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:48, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mujinga hey, just checking to see if we'd addressed your concerns and/or if you had anything else to add? Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:16, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just read through the article again it seems in pretty good nick, but I was still waiting for an answer on the legacy question above. Also, two minor nitpicks from re-reading:
Oops, sorry, I overlooked that. I've added those details. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:04, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
in second half, "which Matthäus struck over the goal" read a bit strangely, would "over the crossbar" be better? Maybe that's just me.
Fixed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:04, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
in reactions "Jeremy Goss has written of the reaction of the German players to the defeat" makes it seem that he is talking about reactions post-match (as to be expected), but then "not a good idea ... [the] sort of thing that does a manager's team talk for him" makes it seem Matthäus' comments came before the match? Mujinga (talk) 16:37, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have to leave that to Dweller, but I completely agree there's a problem with the chronology there. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:04, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The chronology is fine but it's ambiguously worded. The stupid comments occurred between the two legs. I'll clarify in the article. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
good solution! Mujinga (talk) 09:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mujinga, TRM has addressed a lot of comments and I've picked up the few others. Are you content to support now? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 18:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was asking for a bit more on the legacy and significance of the match, and you've now added that, so I'm happy to support. I can leave it to other reviewers to see what they think. Cheers, Mujinga (talk) 09:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Mike Christie edit

  • This perception could not help but reach the players, which was to be significant. I think "This perception, which could not help but reach the players, was to be significant" might be more fluent.
  • Two consecutive sentences in "Pre-match" have a colon, which jars just because you notice it. The first might be a semicolon just as well, or make the second one a dash.
    • Changed the first to a semicolon, and rephrased to avoid the second. Harrias talk 18:30, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I changed "utilised" to "used" in A feeling that the German side was arrogantly expecting victory was picked up on and used by the Norwich team but I see "used" shows up in the quote directly following. How about just cutting "and used" from the introductory part of the sentence? The quote does that work for you, I think.
    • Good point, removed "and used" (and also added a closing speech mark for the quote.) Harrias talk 18:30, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Generally looks good; just a couple of minor points above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: Cheers for the review; all dealt with. Harrias talk 18:30, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Fixes look good. And I just watched Goss's goal on youtube; it was a cracker. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:43, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Therapyisgood edit

Resolved comments from Therapyisgood (talk) 17:13, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
*In contrast, Bayern Munich were playing their 185th European cup tie is "tie" a typo? Or is that a synonym for match? Can you link or replace with "match"?
    • @The Rambling Man:; I assume in this case it is synonymous with "match", but I can't see where it came from in the references; can you look at this one please. Harrias talk 08:02, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, it's synonymous with "match". There does seem to be a language issue around the use of "tie" here (and in other places) which I think BritEng speakers can just deal with (e.g. the tie ended in a tie is just fine for us) but all other Engvars struggle with. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • There is also the problem that we use "tie" both to refer to singular matches, and to refer to a pair of matches making up a two-legged tie. Harrias talk 08:11, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Norwich manager Walker targeted World-Cup winner Lothar Matthäus as an unlikely weak link in the Bayern Munich team. I'm not sure who this is based on the caption, either Walker or Matthäus.
  • the inaugural season, inaugural season of what?
  • tie link "tie" somewhere, not sure what it is.
  • They had progressed to the second round having defeated Dutch club FC Twente 7–3 on aggregate with a 4–3 win at Diekman Stadion and a 3–0 victory in the Olympiastadion can you go over how many total games were played for each aggregate?
    • I have added some background information on the UEFA Cup and how the two-legged ties worked, how is that? Harrias talk 08:02, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This perception, which could not help but reach the players, was to be significant. → This perception, which could not help but reach the players, was significant.
  • Are there any German sources from the time that gave predictions? Offhand 1 appears.
    • That article is from 2019 and certainly doesn't give any predictions of the match in 1993; it tangentially mentions it as a historic reference. We didn't come across much in the German sources pre-match, no. Harrias talk 08:02, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Norwich had injury doubts over defender John Polston and striker Efan Ekoku, are these Norwich or German players?
  • meaning that a booking in this match would have ruled them out for the return leg was this pursuant to a rule?
    • Yes, but this is not discussed in the sources, and doesn't need to be discussed here, the fact of the matter was that another yellow card would have ruled them out and that's all that's needed in this context. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Bayern, Markus Schupp was suspended after receiving a second yellow card when? Any additional context?
  • The match kicked off at around 20:45 CET in front of a crowd of 28,500 at Munich's Olympiastadion (Olympic Stadium) you have the opportunity to link & explain Olympiastadion on its first use in the "background" section.
  • Can you add a clause on why Norwich is being called "Canaries" in various headlines.
  • It suggested that after the first goal, Norwich played very deep and Bayern should have played through the wings can you link "wings" somewhere?
    • Linked on first use (in the First half section of the match. Harrias talk 08:05, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It also noted that Ziege came off when he was playing well not sure what this means
    • Changed "came off" to "was replaced", does that help? Harrias talk 08:02, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Internazionale beat Norwich 2–0 on aggregate and went on to win the tournament can you break down how many goals per match?
  • The match has thus achieved considerable notability in the history of Norwich City not sure you need "thus", it's the start of a paragraph. Unless you mean "thus far", even then it's a bit iffy. Perhaps just cut "thus".
  • Since moving to their new Allianz Arena, in what year? Alternately list the years the German team played at Olympiastadion in the previous sentence.
    Added year. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:40, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since moving to their new Allianz Arena, Bayern have suffered four further setbacks against English teams. as of when? perhaps "lost four further times" instead of "suffered four further setbacks"
  • away goals rule not to get too sidetracked but can you explain what this is?
  • In 2018–19 UEFA Champions League, Liverpool won 3–1 over Bayern in Allianz Arena, not sure if you need the second comma

Pretty good overall. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:52, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Therapyisgood I think between Harrias and me, we've covered all of the above, let us know if you need anything else. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm satisfied with the "tie" explanation in the "Background" section. File:Bryan Gunn in the Gunn Club.jpg and File:Lothar Matthäus.jpg need personality rights templates at the Commons, see Commons:Template:Personality rights. The article still needs a source review and an image review. Therapyisgood (talk) 17:13, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Personality rights templates added. Anything else?

Support pending source & image review. Therapyisgood (talk) 14:44, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nominators, you might try and scare those up now. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:58, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Eh? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:09, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Rose, Therapyisgood. Who might provide a "source & image review"? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:42, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dweller I think made a request in the fashion of these parts. Not sure what else to do other than that. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:59, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Chidgk1 edit

Chidgk1 (talk) 17:24, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Sarastro edit

Support: I meant to review this earlier but time got away from me a little. This is a brilliant article, and has one of the best background sections to an article like this that I have read. No issues at all, and as far as I can tell it is easy to follow, avoiding jargon (except perhaps "first-time shot", but not a big deal if we keep it in). The only other thing I wondered was if we need a note or something to explain "Jerry sinks the Gerrys" for anyone who has never read the Sun... I don't know if that kind of expression means anything outside the UK. But that doesn't affect my support in any way. Sarastro (talk) 09:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment from Giants2008 edit

  • Unfortunately I'm lacking enough time for a comprehensive review, but a took a peek at the reference list and saw that ref 4 didn't have a publisher (The Guardian), so that should probably be fixed. Best of luck with the remainder of the FAC. Giants2008 (Talk) 19:40, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Cheers Giants, good spot, fixed now. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:49, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Aza24 - Pass edit

Will do shortly - Aza24 (talk) 05:03, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Other than these very minor edits, the sources are very thorough; I don't see any refs that are missing publishers/authors/dates and such. The "In German" markings are also very much appreciated!

Likewise the sources are all reliable. They are mostly from reputable news sources and those that are not see to be from databases that are sourcing uncontroversial information. Aza24 (talk) 05:26, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Aza24 cheers, much appreciated. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Spotchecks - Pass edit

Doing shortly Aza24 (talk) 05:26, 19 June 2020 (UTC) Checked: 1, 2, 6, 16 (didn't check every time this sourced is used as it's used 7 times), 22, 29, 30, 38, 42 (all three), 52, 63, 68 – all good, well done! Aza24 (talk) 06:00, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lovely job Aza24, thanks. @WP:FAC coordinators: this nomination is oven-ready for promotion! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: I think we still need an image review? Harrias talk 07:27, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Argh. Zzz. Well we've asked, nothing more can be done about it. Back on hold. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:38, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

While the information is often rather vague on files, it seems like all of them are OK - save for these in the #Details section which I didn't check. ALT text is OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:09, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, are we finally done?? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:19, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@WP:FAC coordinators: , anything more required? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:39, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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