User talk:Lawrencekhoo/Archive 9

Hello

I just wanted to drop you a note to let you know that you are banned from posting comments on my talk page, unless, of course, you are required to by Wikipedia policy. If you are required to post a notice on my talk page, please clearly indicate in the edit summary what policy you are doing so under. Any other posted comments will be deleted without being read.

Please note that this ban also applies to pinging me. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:38, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

FYI, you can't ban people from posting on your talk page. Read WP:TALK. Since you don't want it on your talk page, I will post my comment that prompted your rather rude reply here:[1] LK (talk) 18:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

As a note to the ANI discussion I forsee in your future, I would like to note that you are violating the Wikipedia pillar of politeness and have obviously no concept of how to work in a collegial manner in a collaborative environment. You repeatedly reintroduced a paragraph sourced to primary sources, without justification, even in the edit summary. And even though you wrote it yourself, and no one else supported it, you claimed consensus for it and accused the person removing it of edit warring -- ignoring that you had repeatedly reinstated it by yourself. That you were incorrect in edit warring in the section you wrote is clear in that it was eventually removed by multiple editors. And worse, you repeatedly used impolite language in edit summaries, and are doing so again here. LK (talk) 06:01, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

@Lawrencekhoo: I see he "banned" you as well. Psh. Don't pay him any mind. His block log speaks for itself. —LRG5784 (talk · contribs · email) 19:09, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. The way he's going, it looks to me like he'll get blocked gain soon. LK (talk) 10:12, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Jack Kevorkian lead

Since you have strong opinions on what belongs in lead, I thought that you might be interested in the discussion on the talk page of Jack Kevorkian on what to include in the lead. JDDJS (talk) 18:52, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Keynesian economics

Lawrence - could I ask your view on the current status of the Keynesian Economics article? I consulted it a few weeks ago looking for wisdom, and it was clear even to me, even then, that it contained serious errors. I flagged one in the talk page (a comment I've now deleted), but there are lots. At a guess I would say the article was written by someone who knew a lot about economics but wasn’t at home in Keynesianism (a fan of the Austrian school perhaps?).

I’m surprised to see something so inaccurate, but also to see so little controversy about it – the talk page is very quiet. I’d expect a pitched battle between opposing views rather than apathy. The satellite page on the paradox of thrift seems livelier.

The weakest part follows the heading ‘Excessive saving’.

First para. This implies that Keynes identified only transient causes of unemployment (e.g. falling investment) when on the contrary he claimed to have identified permanent structural causes. He would not have recognised the risk that ‘investment falls... and saving does not immediately fall in step’ since he held saving and investment to be identically equal.

Second para. The neoclassical economists did not put this argument forward. They did not consider that unemployment could be caused by excessive saving, and therefore did not need to postulate an interest rate mechanism to prevent this from happening. Moreover they did not regard the interest rate as ensuring equilibrium between saving and investment because they thought that this equilibrium existed automatically: ‘an act of individual saving inevitably leads to a parallel act of investment’ (p21).The diagram does not have much in common with Keynes’s.

Etc. Especially perverse is the statement that ‘saving involves not spending all one’s income’. Keynes says: “Amidst the welter of divergent usages of terms, it is agreeable to discover one fixed point. So far as I know, everyone is agreed that saving means the excess of income over expenditure on consumption”, i.e. not over expenditure tout court (p61).

Even worse is the statement in the last para of this section: ‘unemployment in labour markets encourages excessive saving’. Not only is this the opposite of Keynes’s view, it’s the opposite of what the article tells us 3 paras previously.

Regards, Colin.champion (talk) 07:23, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the article is terrible. Unfortunately, it would be such a major project to fix it that no one has taken up the effort. I always meant to, but have constantly put it off, thinking "next summer, when I have time". All I can say is, I encourage you and other people familiar with economics to jump in. Grab a intro macro text book, read the article in the Concise Encyclopedia of Economics on Keynesian Economics, read the article in Britannica, and hack away. If you encounter any problems, give a shout and I'll help, The WP:ECON working group is also another good place to ask for help. Best, --LK (talk) 04:37, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Lawrence. My first thought had been to try to write something of my own. My second, on reading the Wikipedia strictures on ‘improper editorial synthesis’ (and especially the second example involving the Harvard definition of plagiarism), was to give up the idea – I don’t see how anyone can write about economics without drawing logical inferences. In any case, I’m really not the right person to do the job. So I recast what I’d written for my personal web pages. But I was coming round to trying it out on Wikipedia anyway, and your words have pushed me into doing so (for better or worse). I’d written something which only needed reformatting, and people don’t seem in practice to worry too much about whether they’re improperly editorially synthesising. And it doesn’t hurt me if my changes get reverted; there’s still the version on my own web site. I will try to do this very soon because if I don’t do it this week there will be a long delay. Cheers. Colin.champion (talk) 13:55, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, please be WP:BOLD and just go ahead and edit the article. If anything needs to be wikified, I'll help clean up afterwards. I wouldn't worry too much about the nitty gritty of policy at this point, the article is so full of errors, that it should be easy to make reasonable edits that most people agree with. Best, --LK (talk) 08:11, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Lawrence, I’ve done just that. I don’t imagine many people will be happy with what I’ve written, but, as you say, the previous version had plenty of faults; and to criticise effectively needs a closer acquaintance with the General Theory than most people possess. I will see what happens. There are improvements I could make myself, e.g. diagrams, which I don’t want to spend effort on until I’ve seen what response I get. Colin.champion (talk) 11:53, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

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Dirty Dancing

Please refrain from adding synthesis like you did in this article, as per MOS:FILM#Critical response, specifically the sentence: "The overall critical response to a film should be supported by attributions to reliable sources," in which it explicitly states, as you say, that "it received generally positive but also some mixed reviews from critics". Slightlymad 05:31, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Give me a break. It's merely summarizing the metacritic and rotten tomato sources that directly follow that sentence. Also, keep talk about article content on the article talk page please. LK (talk) 09:05, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: Thomas Cave (Chapman)

Hello Lawrencekhoo. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Thomas Cave (Chapman), a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Having any secondary sources at all about someone from the 17th century is a claim of significance. Thank you. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:34, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Noted, thanks, LK (talk) 04:20, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

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Discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Targatron reported by User:IJBall (Result: )

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Targatron reported by User:IJBall (Result: ) . As is indicated, this is about User:Targatron at Nina Dobrev. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:08, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Michael Kumhof

Hello, I started the article about Michael Kumhof and just received a message from you saying that it's nominated for delation. I read up on requirements for biographies for living people and I understand that the information in the article need to be correct and verified. In my opinion it is but you seem to be of another opinion, can you please explain why you nominate it for deletion? Also please bare with me because I'm a Wikipedia noob ----Space4eva — Preceding unsigned comment added by Space4eva (talk • contribs) 08:21, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Millie Bobby Brown

HI. A neutral point of view template?. This edits summaries looks like WP:POINT. The phrase is clearly not violating any guidelines. Don't start a disruptive editing for a "minor edit". Thank you. All the best. --Miaow 15:07, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

See WP:OTHERSTUFF. That other articles use non-neutral language is not a reason to keep edit warring it into this one. If you point out the other articles, I will gladly fix those too. LK (talk) 15:37, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Explain why is "nonneutral language" and stop your disruptive editing, please. --Miaow 15:46, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

My point is that there is no violation of the guidelines unless you give an argument that makes me change my mind. This phrase means the same but in other words and using the common sense I can't find a reason to remove it. --Miaow 15:54, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

If the both are equivalent, and your preferred phrase is neutral, then why are you so adamant on edit warring it back in? You should know that you have just broken 3RR on that article. I highly suggest that you self revert. LK (talk) 23:51, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Editing an Infobox

Hello! I saw that nearly ten years ago (2008/8/14), you made some edits to the Template:Infobox Province of China (PRC). I am trying to make a worthwhile change to the Infobox template- adding the category "|HighestPoint =". Do you know anyone that edits infoboxes that can help me add this to the Province of China Infobox? Thanks for any help. Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:12, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm actually not that good about editing info boxes. There should be some infobox gurus around. I suggest asking at the WP:Teahouse. LK (talk) 03:02, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

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Friedman quote

Years ago, you added a quote from Milton Friedman, and then added the sources later. Can you confirm this and maybe help give more info on this quote? Srich32977 couldn't find a page number for it, and I can't find the quote at all in the book, the original essay, nor the 1993 paper. -- Netoholic @ 08:59, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

I read the quote in Mark Skousen's book Vienna & Chicago Friends or Foes?: A Tale of Two Schools of Free-Market Economics [2]. Skousen is a respected writer, so he should have got the quote right. I may have messed up the citation, but Skousen should have it in his book. Let me see if I can dig it up. LK (talk) 03:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

OK, according to Skousen, the quote is from "The 'Plucking Model' of Business Fluctuations Revisited" [3] I am away from my office and unable to find an online pdf of the paper. Would appreciate if you could help verify. LK (talk) 03:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I found Skousen's use of quote (Google Books, at the start of chapter 6), which cites page 171 (the first page) of 'Plucking Model'. I pulled that up the full article via Gale and that quote's not in there (Questia has a pretty long sample of the article as well). Hayek isn't mentioned. Mises is mentioned once, but the note (4) associated with it refers back to "Monetary Studies of the National Bureau" (reprinted in Milton Friedman, The Optimum Quantity of Money and Other Essays, Aldine, 1969 - page 273 or maybe 274). I think I'm going to just see if I can get a copy of that 1969 book version itself and see if its in there. Still doesn't explain why Skousen cited it to 'Plucking Model'. -- Netoholic @ 22:11, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I've seen the quote mentioned in other places as well. I wonder if there is a Milton Friedman library we could ask for help from. LK (talk) 01:22, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

A lot of the uses I found are from after the quote appeared in the Wikipedia page. The only thing I can think of is that, since the quote isn't in the original NBER essay, that in the 1969 book reprint of the essay Friedman wrote that line as an introduction or a notation. -- Netoholic @ 04:08, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand why you keep on referencing the 1969 book. Skousen cites the quote to "The 'Plucking Model' of Business Fluctuations Revisited" which was written in 1993. LK (talk) 06:55, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I have a full copy of the 1993 'Plucking Model' paper - the quote doesn't appear in it. The only mention of Mises in 'Plucking Model' has a footnote pointing to the 1969 book, so I'm just trying to figure out if the quote came from there and Skousen cited the wrong work. -- Netoholic @ 07:40, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Hopefully this link illustrates the problem: the quote appears two times in the book, but take note of the different page numbers used. 'Plucking Model' ran on pages 171-174, but the quote isn't in it. page 261 makes no sense except that in 'Plucking Model', Friedman's single mention of Mises is footnoted to point to that page 261, which is within his 1969 book. I have a copy of the essay that should appear there, but it doesnt have the quote. My last guess is that the quote was in the book but not the original essay, maybe as a author note or something. -- Netoholic @ 08:10, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I wonder if Mark Skousen will reply to an email about this. I also wonder if it's worth the effort. Quote notwithstanding, it's pretty clear from Friedman's paper that he believes ABCT to be contradicted by evidence. To be fair, he also believes the simple Keynesian model to be contradicted by evidence as well. LK (talk) 02:24, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

I think his view should be covered, this quote though at this point seems to be at risk of becoming more apocryphal than actual. Of the few citations of it (7 total), one is Skousen, one is a straight wiki mirror, and a couple are papers which were written after it was added in 2008 and which may plagiarize the Wikipedia article, or are taking the citation as granted based on Wikipedia. I'd think a quote like this would have appeared in other literature sometime will before Skousen's 2005 book. I'm only waiting on an interlibrary loan of the original 1969 book as a last-ditch effort to see if it exists before removing the quote itself. -- Netoholic @ 04:19, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Sounds right. Skousen may have been paraphrasing, and somewhere along the line, it got messed it up and got put into quotes. LK (talk) 04:56, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

thanks

thanks Hmains (talk) 02:03, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

de nada --LK (talk) 02:08, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

!Kind of Blue

I am not confident in my opposition to your changes to Kind of Blue, so I opened an RfC for more opinions to determine it. Dan56 (talk) 14:35, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Please use talk page when reverting edits made in good faith

You have reverted some of my edits without giving a reason on the talk page. Please respect the neutrality principle. All alternative theories on a topic should be presented if they are supported by reliable sources. You may personally disbelieve the credit theory of money, but it is supported by a majority of the relevant literature in the last 5-10 years. Bolarno (talk) 07:57, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Dear Lawrence. There are two issues here: (1) the theoretical question of what determines the money supply, and (2) the political question of how we want our banking system to work. Regarding (1), the majority opinion has been changing in the last 5-10 years. Please see my list of literature at Talk:Fractional-reserve_banking. Regarding (2), you write that "There's a consensus of economists that full reserve banking is a bad idea." I cannot see this consensus, in fact I am seeing a lively debate with no consensus. I have tried to find publications on both sides of this controversy in order to present a balanced view on WP. I found tons of publications that argue for monetary reform, while it was very difficult to find citeable publications arguing against reform. The one that best explained arguments against reform was a small section in an Icelandic dissertation about something else. If you have found important publications arguing against monetary reform, please give me the references. Bolarno (talk) 06:33, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

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Modern Monetary Theory

Hi, sorry to bother you, but apparently there are some issues at Modern Monetary Theory, and you might be able to put in your two cents. --Calton | Talk 00:36, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Peter Navarro

Sorry to bother, I wonder if you'd mind giving your input regarding Peter Navarro at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Peter_Navarro?

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Regarding your reversion on Quantitative Easing

On the article, Quantitative Easing, you deleted an edit that mentioned Keynesianism as an alternative to QE. Fiscal policy is a viable alternative to Monetary Policy, and that's why I kept that.

What is your reason for deleting "Demand Side Economics"? Nashhinton (talk) 23:30, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

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Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas Lawrence! FeydHuxtable (talk) 11:43, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

A very merry Christmas to you too!

LK (talk) 23:38, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

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Stetson Kennedy

Hi - I undid your edit to the Stetson Kennedy page. I agree that "folklorist" can be synonymous with "author" in many cases, but that doesn't apply to Stetson Kennedy. He was a folklorist, but also and author of many books having nothing whatsoever to do with folklore--e.g. After Appomattox, the Klan books, etc. It would be expected that he would be labeled an author separately from his work as a folklorist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshfisher (talk • contribs) 16:09, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

October 2020

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. You appear to be repeatedly reverting or undoing other editors' contributions at Anthony Bourdain. Although this may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Wikipedia this is known as "edit warring" and is usually seen as obstructing the normal editing process, as it often creates animosity between editors. Instead of reverting, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.

If editors continue to revert to their preferred version they are likely to lose their editing privileges. This isn't done to punish an editor, but to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring. In particular, editors should be aware of the three-revert rule, which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Edit warring on Wikipedia is not acceptable in any amount, and violating the three-revert rule is very likely to result in loss of your editing privileges. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:05, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography

Yes; you made changes to the MOS without seeking consensus on the talk page. GiantSnowman 09:27, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Do you revert every edit to MOS pages that doesn't first get consensus on the talk page? If you don't then that's just bs. In any case, it's rude to revert good faith edits with a "revert to last good version" comment. LK (talk) 10:25, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

You are changing long established wording and formatting. Think to yourself - if there was a need to make this change, if the change was so crucial, wouldn't it already have been done? Again, please simply discuss on the talk page and get agreement for your changes. That is all. GiantSnowman 10:32, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I could be pointy and start reverting everything you do that doesn't have consensus on the talk page. How would you like that? LK (talk) 10:34, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

You would soon get blocked, but please give it a whirl if you wish...OR you could simply post on the talk page and day "here's my proposed tweak to the MOS, based on X and Y, any comments?". But you do you. GiantSnowman 11:40, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm saying that you shouldn't do you. Cause you are rude. LK (talk) 13:04, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

First fundamental theorem of welfare economics

Lawrence – if you have time, and are willing to get involved in a disagreement, could I ask you to look at a topic in the ‘first fundamental theorem of welfare economics’. The discussion on the talk page is self-contained.

The significant point at issue is whether the FFT shows (under certain conditions) that ‘competitive markets ensure an efficient allocation of resources’ (without further qualification, as the article now says) or whether it shows that they ‘ensure an efficient allocation of resources in the short run’ (which I believe to be closer to the truth, though still an overstatement of the theorem’s generality). (And of course, besides the truth of the matter, there’s the question of what can legitimately be said on Wikipedia – I would hope there was no discrepancy.) Colin.champion (talk) 13:21, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

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Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas Lawrence! FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:05, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Arshia Sattar

Hi there,

I'm wondering what your grounds are for deleting this page, given that Sattar is one of the most prominent translators and literary figures in India today, widely published and read.

Thanks! Prm 1302 (talk) 07:23, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

The page is not deleted. LK (talk) 14:49, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

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March 2021

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to vandalize Wikipedia, as you did at Isa Briones, you may be blocked from editing. Data is strongly sourced. Stop vandalising the article and/or take your concerns to WP:DR. ATS (talk) 16:23, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Gods sakes, you are reinserting uncited disputed material into a BLP. Keep discussion on the article talk page. LK (talk) 01:39, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Fully cited. Strongly cited. Your lies don't change that. —ATS (talk) 04:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

You continue to claim it is cited, and yet the only source on the disputed sentence supports my edit. You are continuing to revert without adding a source nor discussing. This is the definition of edit warring. LK (talk) 04:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

You appear to be violating BLP policy with your recent edits. Please note that BLP states: "The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores the material." You have been edit warring in material that is challenged, and yet you are re-adding it without supplying a source. Additionally, describing another editor's edits as vandalism (as you did here [4], here, [5] and here [6]), when it is a good-faith edit is not collaborative behavior. Similarly, one should not template the regulars, nor threaten them (as here [7][]), nor report them spuriously (as here [8]). LK (talk) 05:00, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Shortcuts are for convenience, not guidance; and take care when editing the guidance

Please don't change links (especially piped ones) in policies, guidelines, or key essays to use shortcuts instead of full page names, as you did here. Shortcuts are for editorial convenience on talk pages and in the URL bar. In our rules and information pages, when a user (especially a new user) hovers over such a cross-reference, they should see the proper, informative name of the page and section they would be taken to, instead of seeing WP insider gibberish like "MOS:OPEN" or "MOS:PUFFERY".

PS: Please also take care not to remove crucial parts of guidelines when copyediting them, as you also did in that edit. The instruction that the lead should tell the reader why the subject is notable is central to the whole point of that section, and probably enjoys more consensus that any other sentence in the section.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:38, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Use of POV wording

I've opened a new section on the PragerU talk page to address WP:NPOV issues with the wording of your edit. Feel free to join in on the discussion. Earl of Arundel (talk) 17:29, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

This is not an issue of NPOV; this is an issue of accuracy. The criticisms of mankin are not that she is anti immigration. The criticisms are that the video is inaccurate. LK (talk) 04:09, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Seeking help editing an article

Hi @Lawrencekhoo:

I am a student who is new to Wikipedia. In one of my subjects, I am editing and updating the China-Pakistan Free Trade Agreement article. I saw that you are a member of Wikiproject: China and was wondering if you would be able to provide me with some feedback and help me improve it.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated! :)

S2102sa (talk) 01:42, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Aw shucks!

Thank you, I appreciate it. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 08:28, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Help needed at 2021 global energy crisis

Hi, I've noticed that you've done quite a bit of work on the article financial crisis of 2007–2008 and I wanted to ask you whether you would like to expand the article 2021 global energy crisis as someone informed in the topic. Clingmitch (talk) 21:04, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Rebekah Mercer

Hello, re:

18 January 2021‎ Lawrencekhoo... −12‎ not discussed in the article... Tag: Manual revert

13 January 2021‎ Lindenfall... +12‎ Publisher added to lead.

Owning a news agency makes her a publisher, self-evident in the lead and in the article. Lindenfall (talk) 21:45, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Just because a person is obviously 'something' doesn't mean that thing should be included in the lead sentence. Hitler was verifiably a vegetarian, but that's not (and shouldn't be) in the lead sentence. See WP:FIRSTBIO for guidelines on the lead sentence and lead paragraph. LK (talk) 06:14, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

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Merry Christmas LK! FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:17, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

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Garbage

I'm not associated with KillerGhost. Your edits on Hammer are poorly written as the other editor noted. You are edit warring, vandalizing, not assuming good faith, being uncivil and disruptive. You are also showing signs of ownership. The sentences on the Hammer article are too long, have serial commas and/or not written correctly. Please proofread your edits before submitting. Also do not remove legitimate sources. Thank you! RandoEditing (talk) 22:25, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Confirmed suckpuppet of GOAT7. LK (talk) 02:56, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Sophie Grégoire Trudeau‎

Hello, I'm Aloha27. I have reverted your edit to the page as I don't believe it to have been an improvement. At some point in the future, Justin Trudeau will no longer be "current prime minister" which will necessitate a rewrite anyway BUT he will always be the 23rd Prime Minister of Canada. Regards,   Aloha27  talk  12:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

It's common to refer to people who currently hold the position as "the current ...". When the situation changes, we edit the wikipedia page accordingly. I don't think you would suggest changing Justin Trudeau's article to remove "current" from the lead sentence? LK (talk) 02:55, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

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Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas Lawrence! FeydHuxtable (talk) 19:32, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Seasons greetings 🥳 LK (talk) 03:36, 26 December 2022 (UTC)