Talk:The Buddha/Archive 19

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TERRIBLE SPELLING

This article needs proofreading 2A00:23C5:9F17:9901:5981:7911:432B:596E (talk) 18:13, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Can you point out any misspellings? JungleEntity (talk) 19:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2023

Regarding the article on The Buddha under the section: Understanding the historical person under subsection Dating, I noticed in the dates in the paragraph regarding the accepted dates in Sri Lanka and South-East Asia are one year off.

The paragraph reads:

“According to these chronicles Asoka was crowned in 326 BCE, which gives the dates of 624 and 544 BCE for the Buddha, which are the accepted dates in Sri Lanka and South-East Asia.”

These dates are off by one year and should be: 623 and 543 as the accepted dates in SE Asia. In Thailand, Cambodia, etc., for example the current year is 2566 BE. So by subtracting 2023 AD from 2566 BE, results in a 543 year difference, not a 544 year difference. Thereby putting the historical Buddha’s birth and death at 623 and 543. These are the dates used in SE Asia. So I believe the article listing the dates of 624 and 544 to be typos or incorrect. 2001:FB1:42:950F:59D3:9B54:FF97:F524 (talk) 10:39, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

I looked at the source used for those dates, and all it gives is the Buddha's birthday as circa 563 BC. This source (also used in the Buddha's Birthday article) gives 623 as well, but doesn't exactly state if this is the SE Asia dating or not. This one, citing "The Theravada school using Sri Lankan chronicles" (also citing an actual book) says 564. If anyone finds a better source, please update the article with it! Good catch OP! JungleEntity (talk) 20:49, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: per JungleEntity. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 09:49, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 February 2023

The six sense bases only show five senses, they are missing "eye and sight".

change "The six sense bases are ear and sound, nose and odour, tongue and taste, body and touch, and mind and thoughts" to The six sense bases are eye and sight, ear and sound, nose and odour, tongue and taste, body and touch, and mind and thoughts. DavehackerWiki (talk) 12:26, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Ha! Yes, clearly the sense base that was missing when the text was first added. Done. Thanks. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:29, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 February 2023

typo: change input feom to input from DavehackerWiki (talk) 16:43, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 03:10, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Ascetic Sumedha and Dipankara Buddha.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:11, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Lead line

The paragraph should atleast include 'India' as he spent good time doing renuciation(in Bodhgaya) as well as a spiritual teacher. Don't you think so? South Asia doesn't even conclude that he had most in common with India.223.190.135.195 (talk) 18:22, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2023

The word "Parinirvana" in this sentence: "He died in Kushinagar, attaining paranirvana.[d]" is spelled P-A-R-A-N-I-R-V-A-N-A, instead of how it is really spelled: P-A-R-I-N-I-R-V-A-N-A. DiefferGhossss (talk) 18:49, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 19:51, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

buddha

It is stated in the intro that Buddha "founded Buddhism". This is not strictly true as Buddhism was created and proliferated by later followers. Chridman (talk) 14:15, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@Chridman: It is what the reliable sources say, and therefore, so do we. Mathglot (talk) 20:35, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@Mathglot If you bothered to check the passage, you'd see that the statement is unsourced. I see no problem in rewording it. ~~~~ — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:33, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Kashmiri, the lead sentence you see now was hammered out after extensive discussion, including Rfcs. There was lively disagreement on a number of issues, but not about that point. If you think "founder of Buddhism" is something that needs sourcing, feel free to do so. Several dozen sources were listed during those discussions that mentioned "founder of Buddhism" or words to that effect as part of the description; in fact, it is the one of the most common assertions about the Buddha to appear in reliable sources; see this list. For other viewpoints, see the Archives. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:21, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

And behold, your list proves its long-term utility again. Yes, 'founder', is all over it. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:13, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

line 3: ... and founded Buddhism.

Buddha certainly NEVER founded Buddhism (like Jesus never 'founded' Christianity). Organised religions usually appear 100s of years after the life of the enlightened Master (not that Jesus was definiteley enlightened) because some 'people' start drawing power and advantage from the wisdom of the -ism's origin. Every '-ism' is only an institutionalised, rather dead, knowledgeable copy of the original and tries to prevent searchers to find their individual way, just as Gautama Siddhartha - and many others - did who certainly NEVER followed any '-ism'... 89.247.171.247 (talk) 07:11, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Please see the discussion above. And, particularly, this list of sources.RegentsPark (comment) 14:34, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 11 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The Buddha → Buddha – Procedural note: Previous The Buddha to Buddha move discussion was nearly a year ago and resulted in no consensus rather than overwhelming oppose and there's more to its rationale, so I'd like to reevaluate.

The definite article in the title looks like hypercorrection. Firstly, in terms of WP:THE: "If the definite or indefinite article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the Wikipedia article name. Otherwise, do not". Here "the" is not an inseparable capitalized part of the proper name, as in The Crown, The New York Times or The Beatles. At the same time, whenever Buddha is mentioned, Siddhartha Gautama is typically assumed, making him WP:PRIMARYTOPIC - which is apparently why Buddha currently redirects to The Buddha rather than to Buddha (disambiguation). So confusion here is negligible, it's not the issue of crown vs The Crown mentioned there. As such, the argument from the previous move discussion that "the definite article "The" is required, and justified by the guideline WP:THE, to distinguish "The Buddha" from the broader concept of buddhas or buddahood" is miscalibrated optics. Secondly, major reference works have their entries at Buddha, rather than The Buddha: Encyclopedia Britannica, Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Cambridge Dictionary, etc. All this favors dropping "the" from the title. Brandmeister^talk 12:25, 11 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BD2412 T 15:41, 18 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 03:28, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support: I agree with the above. The counterargument that has been in the past to this is that "Buddha" could be confused with "buddha" (lower case), i.e. the general concept of "buddhahood" or one of the other figures associated with it - an argument that I, personally, have never found particularly compelling. There are other buddhas, yes ... but, as the tertiary sources above attest, "Buddha" (upper case) only has one real meaning in common English. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:50, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support per WP:THE and WP:COMMONNAME. Beginning an article title with the definite article is discouraged for searching and indexing reasons. Rreagan007 (talk) 15:50, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per previous and lengthy discussions above. "The Buddha" is the smartest solution. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 16:54, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose because I am tired of page moves; because the last move ended on December 3 2022 which is 8 months not a year; because I am ashamed of the time I seemingly invested in previous page moves and, in general, in talk page discussions here; because their memory is so hazy as to be of a lifetime ago; because the lead of the article remains in the same state of disrepair and disregard it was two years ago; and ultimately because Gautama Buddha, the Sage of the Sakyas, would have walked away, and did walk away, from such arguments to seek the shade of an unfrequented tree. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:55, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Leaning oppose: The nominator quoted the second criterion at WP:THE (about capitalization in running text), but neglected to quote the first criterion, which says "If a term with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same term without the article, the term with the article can be used as the name of a Wikipedia article about that meaning, and the term without the article can be used as the name of a separate Wikipedia article." The suggestion is that while "buddha" could refer to anyone who has achieved buddhahood, when someone refers to "The Buddha", it is reasonable to assume they are referring to Gautama Buddha. Addressing the "upper case" part of the comment by Iskandar323, Wikipedia has no way to distinguish between an article title that starts with an uppercase letter and one that starts with an lowercase letter. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:41, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, so both Buddha/buddha (upper/lower case) already direct here. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:52, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yes. If we had a way of distinguishing between them, we might send "Buddha" to Siddhartha Gautama and "buddha" to buddhahood. It is interesting that your view seems to have changed since November. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:17, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

  That it already directs here is merely fact. That no one was has bothered to open a discussion to redirect it anywhere else in the last eight months shows that no one has a strong convinction against the current arrangement. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:32, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  The first criterion of WP:THE is not much applicable here because of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Otherwise Buddha would have redirected to Buddha (disambiguation) instead. Brandmeister^talk 20:13, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think the choice of a title is more than a matter of picking the shortest name that fits WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (assuming it is correctly considered a primary topic). So I disagree with the suggestion that first criterion of WP:THE is not relevant here. I just took a look at the three places linked above. I notice that both Britannica and Stanford, although they title their articles "Buddha", use the phrase "the Buddha" a lot. The cited dictionary seems simply deficient, as it fails to acknowledge that the word has other meanings – it mentions statues explicitly, but many (perhaps most) of the statues are depicting other buddhas, not that buddha. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:06, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

  What matters in Britannica or Stanford is the lack of "the" in their entries rather than presence in the running prose. Currently Wikipedia appears to be in minority among major reference works that use "the" in the Buddha entry - most of them reasonably use simply "Buddha" in the entries/headlines. Brandmeister^talk 07:17, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

  As a reminder, Talk:The Buddha/Tertiary sources, as linked in the talk page header, provides a fairly full gamut of tertiary sources for those inquisitive along these lines. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:26, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support Britannica uses simply "Buddha", and the name already redirects here. There is the question of whether Buddha (title) should have been soft deleted, but it's clear that the person is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC over the title. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 20:31, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

What "person"? Siddharta? "Buddha" is only and always a state of being, ie a title. Johnbod (talk) 20:51, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Both this article and Britannica refer to Siddhartha Gautama as the primary meaning of "Buddha". I think it's important to consider what a lay person would think of when hearing "Buddha" compared to a devout Buddhist. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:00, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per the arguments in the many earlier discussions, and precisely (per F&F & Pat) because there have been so many earlier discussions. Most Western readers understandably have an uncertain grasp of Buddhist theology, and (in fact like many Asians, even Buddhist laity) are unaware that eg many a "statue of Buddha", especially in East Asia, is not a statue of "the Buddha" but another Buddha. The current title plays a very small role in increasing awareness of the distinction. Johnbod (talk) 20:51, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose "The Buddha" is fine and sensible, while seven discussions over the title of this page over five years is decidedly not. AristippusSer (talk) 05:44, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Addendum: I feel like "The Buddha", as the page is titled right now, is a decent compromise between the other options, either a more specific name like Gautama Buddha or just "Buddha". There are reasons to dispute the inclusion of the definite article, but changing it in either direction is just going to spawn endless move requests, which is why I favor leaving the name as it stands and stop cluttering the page history with RM.

Personally speaking, I will say that I do not like the name "Buddha" by itself because of the entirely legitimate concerns about ambiguity raised in previous RMs; just to give an example, out of the thirteen traditional schools of Japanese buddhism, only four (Nichiren and the three Zen schools) recognize Śākyamuni as the primary buddha. But I am OK with "The Buddha" as a middle ground if this is how he is normally referred to in English-language sources, since it doesn't entirely equate "Buddha" with "Gautama Buddha". And if that compromise comes only at the expense of a few style rules, I say it is our best choice. Aristippus Ser (talk) 07:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support as listed by major reference works. "A buddha" in distinction to "Buddha" is covered by the buddhahood entry. Robert Kerber (talk) 08:25, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - I can see the merits of both "The Buddha" and "Buddha" but I cannot support or engage in an RM every few months. If half as much effort had been put into the article as had been put into the last 5 RMs (6 counting this one) this would probably be an FA by now (and yes, I am aware of how much my own bytes added to some of those discussions). An RM proposal would have to be very persuasive to warrant changing the title or even attempting to so frequently, and opening a new RM because of a selective reading of WP:THE, which is not a novel argument in these RMs, is not persuasive in my estimation. - Aoidh (talk) 22:12, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. As in previous discussions, I will write again that this should be avoided because there are many Buddhas (see Category:Buddhas) and it is not the case that the term is used primarily for this figure in all contexts. I still believe that Buddha should redirect to Buddhahood (as well as that the article should not have been moved away from its previous title). Dekimasuよ! 09:23, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

  Depending on the outcome of this RM, someone who believes the same should probably actually launch that discussion to redirect Buddha to Buddhahood, because as long as Buddha directs here, it will continue to appear nonsensical to disambiguate the page away from its own redirect by deferring to WP:THE. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom, PRIMARY.--Ortizesp (talk) 08:42, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Support per nomination. Chronikhiles ^(talk) 10:36, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose "Buddha" is generic, and may be any of several (e.g., these seven). "The Buddha" denotes a unique personage, and obviously that is Siddhartha, and not any of the others. Furthermore, WP:PRECISION is policy—and that overrides WP:THE, which is merely a guideline, if it even applies here at all. Mathglot (talk) 10:42, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Current title does not meet either criteria at WP:THE: the definite article is not usually capitalized in running text and there is no question of separate articles for "Buddha" and "The Buddha". Srnec (talk) 19:59, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Clear primary topic for Buddha (which redirects here anyway, thus undermining the arguments that this Buddha is not the only Buddha; we know, so what?) and per WP:THE. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:THE. The presence of "the" changes the meaning here, which is a huge deal. "The Buddha" and "Buddha" are not synonyms, and placing the article here helps clarify the matter. Side note: for religious topics, there should be a special concern for accuracy to how the religion itself presents it rather than convenience or common name outside the religion. If Buddhism says there are lots of Buddhas, that should be taken into account. SnowFire (talk) 15:19, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per many of the comments and previous discussions. The Buddha is a particular person. 'Buddha', although correctly redirected here to pick up readers who are looking for this particular Buddha, has now been described as having many bodies and existences. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:34, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. I agree with the other participants who have noted that there are other figures who have held the title of "buddha", and thus that "Buddha" would be an insufficiently WP:PRECISE title. Though my first preference would be Gautama Buddha, there was a fairly recent consensus against that title so I think it's wise not to revive that particular issue; instead, I'll support the current title of "The Buddha", which I feel is a WP:NATURAL and WP:CONCISE way to differentiate this particular buddha from others. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:00, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

  (As a corollary, I'd also support retargeting Buddha so it redirects to Buddhahood instead of here; we can then use a hatnote to clean up any remaining navigation issues.) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:00, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What are the current problems with the article, and how can we fix them?

I see some people lamenting the current state of this article in the move discussions above. I know very little about this subject so I don't know what the general academic consensus is, so I don't know what's missing or inaccurate in the current article, but I'd be happy to help out with copyediting or organization, or anything else really. Would someone mind letting me know what the current problems are with this article, or what's missing?

Thanks,

3 kids in a trenchcoat (talk) 23:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Replying to myself here, but on a quick scan through of the article I'm not seeing a whole lot on the Buddha's "legacy" -- how later Buddhists have interpreted him and his teachings, and the evolution of how he's portrayed in texts. (For example, Muhammad and Confucius each have a "legacy" section, while Jesus has "religious perspectives".) There seem to be a few bits sprinkled in about how, originally, the Buddha was portrayed certain ways, but maybe a separate section could be added discussing his historiography or hagiography, etc. -- 3 kids in a trenchcoat (talk) 00:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Two issues I'm seeing at first glance is the large gallery below the Artistic depictions section which should be trimmed per WP:NOTGALLERY and listy format in the In other media section which should be streamlined and converted into prose per MOS:EMBED. Brandmeister^talk 10:24, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 January 2024

Buddha was born in Nepal. 103.174.168.54 (talk) 16:35, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: First of all, please use a "change X to Y" format for edit requests. Secondly, the "Nepal/India/South Asia" dispute has been going on ad nauseam. Please read the existing discussions in the archives and prepare an actual argument. Aristippus Ser (talk) 16:54, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Request to change the article title

Everybody in the world knows he is termed as Gautam Buddha. Yes some people do call him Siddhartha Gautam or Prince Siddhartha as that's his original name..but after being enlightened one it's Gautam Buddha where Buddha refers to the enlightened one.

There are many Buddhas. The little Buddha, the pancha Buddha and many more..by giving the title The Buddha, there will only be confusion or say less reach of the article. Please keep it the original one. Thanks! Sandhyahere (talk) 11:51, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Good morning @Sandhyahere:, please take a look at the discussion at the top of this page, where a similar move was proposed in March 2023, following on from the decision to move to The Buddha in 2022. There was almost unanimous opposition there to returning to the Gautama Buddha title, so it seems highly unlikely that a fresh move request now would be successful. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 11:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

If it's a unanimous decision, then it's fine. Thanks :) Sandhyahere (talk) 12:18, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

• Checkuser note: Sandhyahere blocked as a confirmed sock.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)