Talk:Moses da Rieti

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kimikel talk 02:27, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

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• ... that Moses da Rieti was the first Hebrew poet to write in the rhyming verse form of Dante?

• Source: https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-3-319-02848-4_1113-1, https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/pft.2003.23.1.18

• Reviewed:

Created by Andrevan (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

cc @User:GordonGlottal Andre🚐 19:31, 7 September 2024 (UTC).

• Given that general readers may not know what "terza rima" is, a minor reword (perhaps changing the term to something more accessible) may be needed here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:04, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Seems fair, maybe we should add the phrase "rhyming verse form" afterwards? Andre🚐 01:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Or you could just replace "terza rima" with "rhyming verse form" in the hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Sure. Andre🚐 18:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• A drive-by comment: this has the perennial form of "first" hooks, that even though we may have sources calling them first, there's a high likelihood of WP:ERRORS when someone notices the hook and remembers the existence of someone else using terza rima in Hebrew at an earlier date, overlooked by our source. To forestall this, can we maybe rewrite the hook to avoid the word "first"? Something like
  • ALT1 ... that Moses da Rieti wrote Hebrew poetry in the rhyming verse form of Dante?

—David Eppstein (talk) 23:58, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't mind that, but I think it's rather unlikely that someone will find another example of it, since Dante died in 1321 and Moses was born in 1388, and there are precious few remaining manuscripts from that time to begin with, though I suppose it's not entirely out of the question that a cache of codices will be found in some Vatican annex basement or a Dead Sea caves situation. For reference, the source (Dvora Bregman) says Rieti was, in fact, the first Hebrew poet to use this form, and through his influence it was incorporated into Hebrew poetry by his successors. Andre🚐 00:20, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer needed. Z1720 (talk) 22:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• Note to @GordonGlottal, he has an extensive sandbox with improvements that should be merged back in for this. Andre🚐 23:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I will say that although deserving {{lead too long}} isn't technically a disqualifier, I would politely suggest that having three quarters of the article up there is taking the mickey. Whether by expanding the rest or moving what's there, this should be fixed.--Launchballer 23:53, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

That is fair. There's a version of the article at User:GordonGlottal/sandbox that should address that. Andre🚐 00:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I mean, I'm not going to demand that all that be copied in, but I will ask that what's currently in the article is rearranged (which is what I meant by "what's there").--Launchballer 22:33, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I understand. I think it would be better if we move the sandbox stuff in, hoping Gordon can get around to it. Andre🚐 16:52, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

For now, I have gone ahead and moved part of the lead into an "Overview" section, though I expect this may change again when Gordon's draft is merged. I pinged him hoping that maybe we can do that before the review gets underway in earnest, but if not, at least I'll address the LEADLENGTH issue. Andre🚐 17:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• @Andrevan and Launchballer: Please note that the nomination will time out in three days, so please address any remaining issues as soon as possible. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Long enough, new enough. I don't see any issues with the article or any need for a QPQ. The problem I have is that the hook is dependent on knowledge of Dante, which I lack and suspect a broad audience might also. I was going to suggest ALT2: ... that a poem by Moses da Rieti includes an encyclopedia of sciences, a Jewish paradise fantasy, and a post-biblical history of Jewish literature?, but I suspect I might receive a knock on the door from the WP:DYKFICTION police. What else have you got?--Launchballer 11:08, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The above comment appears to be a review asking questions. Placing this icon here accordingly. Flibirigit (talk) 17:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah ok, let me see if I can find another one. Andre🚐 19:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

How about ALT3: ... that a 15th-century poem by Moses da Rieti is an homage to the Temple of Jerusalem?[1] Andre🚐 22:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not that au fait with poems, but if they're anything like music, then they pay homage to stuff all the time. Anything else?--Launchballer 23:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you're not wrong. What's interesting about this poem is the structure and the form, and the content, but I agree that it may be a bit too detailed for a broad audience. I'll see if I can come up with anything else. Andre🚐 00:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• Reading ALT2, I suspect that it might not be a clear-cut case? The poem might include fictional elements, but if it also includes both an encyclopedia and a history, then it isn't completely fiction and thus relates to the real world in some way? Given the lack of suitable options and time running out, I suspect some variation of ALT2 is the best option here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:27, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

That's a fair point. I obviously can't approve my own hook, so would you like to do the honours?--Launchballer 12:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I do not have access to the source so I will have to assume good faith that it verifies the hook fact. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Should be able to verify here also. Thanks! Andre🚐 17:44, 5 November 2024 (UTC)