Talk:Male Fantasy

Single release

Hey, Infsai. Thank you for your work on the Billie articles. About our slight conflict: there's precedent on Wikipedia (e.g. "Kill the Lights") for not confounding a music video with a single release. Correlation does not imply causation: just because a video is associated with a marketing strategy for a single, it does not mean we should treat like so.

Despite the reliability of the sources you indicate, like Dazed and NME, we can't simply take their word for it — the journalists are probably just going with the idea that the video is a signal for a fleshed-out single release. If that is the case, we'll see it going for adds on the radio, released separately from the Happier Than Ever LP on streaming services, or on a physical format; until it materialises, however, we should classify it as an album track. Prism (talk) 17:40, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Prism. At WP:SINGLE?, there is no mention of NME or Dazed as reliable sources for a single release. If Billboard or Official Charts Company said it if were a single, that would be more reliable according to the singles criteria. A music video doesn’t clarify a single release, and therefore is a promotional tool. Thanks! PopLizard86427 (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Prism: From one hand, you're right and I was even deleting any edit that suggested "Male Fantasy" as a single before. But after few days, Dazed, NME, and Teen Vogue suddenly called it a single. It's really messy I know and I don't know what to do with it besides waiting since it might still be released to radio after Christmas season will be over. infsai (talkie? UwU) 22:54, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and btw @PopLizard86427: here's your Billboard source calling it a single. ;) infsai (talkie? UwU) 23:05, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Male Fantasy/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 10:28, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

I will really crack on with this when I have more time free from work --K. Peake 10:28, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Okay, take your time. Waiting for your notes! infsai (talkie? UwU) 18:21, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

@Kyle Peake: I applied to your suggestions, except of noted ones bellow! infsai (talkie? UwU) 01:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

@Infsai: Your work so far has been applaudable and I am glad we ultimately found mutual ground on the lead order, while keeping the sources instead of liner notes for credits is fine since they are reliable ones anyway. A good amount of sections remaining; let's hope this review continues its current course! --K. Peake 09:25, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

@Kyle Peake: Thank you! I try to make every next article better than the last one, so I thought it'd be a good time to also try review someone's article (preferably "Deeper and Deeper"), but with so many small details I miss I don't think it's a good idea. Sorry for offtop hah. infsai (talkie? UwU) 17:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Infobox and lead

• WP:OVERLINK of Billie Eilish under songwriters
• "songwriter Billie Eilish which concludes her second studio album" → "songwriter Billie Eilish, included as the final track on her second studio album,"
• The last cut part should be the second sentence of the first para instead, while the release date should be the fourth (keeping music video in the last para and genre/writing as the second sentence here)
• Pipe acoustic to Acoustic music
• "breakup ballad was written by" → "breakup ballad, it was written by" with the pipe
• "also produced the track." → "also handled the production."
• "The song verses touches on" → "The verses touch on"
• "in music industry, while in the chorus the artist" → "in the music industry, while in the chorus, the singer" with the pipe
• "It was one of the" → "The song was one of the" but is the last part really sourced?
• "was met with a widespread praise from" → "received widespread praise from" plus add what the critics highlighted before the fan part
• ""Male Fantasy" was released on" → "The song was released on"
• Reword the music video sentence to mentioning that it premiered simultaneously with the single release, as the latter part will have been moved in the new order
• "associates with the track" → "associates with the song"
• "while the artist wanders" → "while she wanders"
• "her Saturday Night Live rendition of the single saw scenery taken from" → "her Saturday Night Live (SNL) rendition saw scenery resembling"
• "the song on" → "the song on the"
• "It was album's the least commercially" → ""Male Fantasy" was Happier Than Ever's least commercially" plus make this the first sentence of the last para instead
• Specify how low the peaks were, i.e within top 100, plus remove Sweden and mention US was on Bubbling Under Hot 100 Singles4

Y Done. Firstly I was quite opposed to your idea for the new order, but after some time I reworked it to somehow match what you've suggested. And yes, [7] is the source for the sentence you asked. infsai (talkie? UwU) 01:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Background and release

• Shouldn't you add the liner notes as a source for the piano because the section does not mention it and when its not personnel, you should use them directly as a source?
• "by Billie Eilish and Finneas O'Connell," → "by Eilish and Finneas O'Connell," with the wikilink
• Wouldn't it be more reliable to cite liner notes for writing and production credits?
• "for this track, came up after the singer had conversations" → "for the track was formed by the singer after she had a conversation"
• "to discuss and it can "make" → "to discuss and can "make"
• "she elaborated that she" → "Eilish opened up that she"
• "also incredibly cathartic too,"" → "also incredibly cathartic too"," per MOS:QUOTE
• "to be included in" → "to be included on"
• [6] should be invoked after the second sentence of the second para too because it is the only source used for that
• "since she thinks that "nothing" → "expressing that "nothing" but the source uses angry note at the end of the nothing part, unless she says "bad note" in the YouTube video?
• "also enclosed, that this song" → "also enclosed that the song"
• "and that due to her" → "and as a result of her"
• "she finds this track to be" → "she finds it to be"
• "It has been later picked as the" → "The song was released as the"
• Remove the music video release part from here, as that only belongs in the appropriate section

Y Done. I used other sources for writing and production credits, since well, they exist simply. :v I thought it be even better this way, to include them as sources for this. infsai (talkie? UwU) 01:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Music and lyrics

• ""Male Fantasy" is an acoustic," → "Musically, "Male Fantasy" is an acoustic," with the pipe
• Remove overly obvious wikilink on guitar
• Pipe ballad to Sentimental ballad
• "According to a" → "According to the"
• Remove wikilink on beats per minute
• Add a comma after register
• "is depicted heartbroken in the track," → "is depicted as heartbroken on the track,"
• "and additionally uses its concept" → "and additionally utilizes the concept"
• "the chorus final line," → "the chorus' final line," with the pipe
• The line ending the chorus is not sourced, nor is the question as being after it
• "to the Slant Magazine's Sal Cinquemani symobolizes" → "to Slant Magazine's Sal Cinquemani, symbolizes"
• "her own agency."" → "her own agency"." per MOS:QUOTE
• "She begins second verse, singing" → "Eilish begins the second verse by singing" but the source does not mention the verse directly at all
• The source does not use the "girl she used to know" quote and mentions her singing about an old friend, so reword appropriately
• "Later she self-reflects" → "Later, she self-reflects"
• Audio sample looks good!

Thanks! infsai (talkie? UwU) 01:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

• "distracting fantasy about a male," → "distracting fantasy about a male," per the source
• "better to her."" → "better to her"."
• "made a remark that "Male Fantasy" resembles" → "made a remark about "Male Fantasy" resembling"
• "the single is "melancholy and ethereal", and that its production is" → "the song is "melancholy and ethereal", describing its production as"
• Wikilink Rolling Stone
• Wikilink Rob Sheffield
• Uproxx should not be italicised

Y Done. infsai (talkie? UwU) 01:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Critical reception

• Pipe music critics to Music journalism, as that is the correct article for these critics
• Remove wikilink and italicisation for Uproxx
• "while in the article published on Clash, the single has been described" → "while Robin Murray from Clash described the song" because the source mentions the author; check the bottom 1
• "Instead he dubbed it" → "To the contrary, he dubbed the song"
• Wikilink Neil McCormick
• the Daily Telegraph → The Daily Telegraph per MOS:THECAPS on titles of works
• "and opinied that they are" → "and opined that they are"
• "across as a victim."" → "across as a victim"."
• "of the album."" → "of the album"."
• "opinied that the song is" → "opined that the song is"
• "and modern womanhood."" → "and modern womanhood"."
• the Ringer → The Ringer, per the website's stylization
• "and described his wish for" → "and mentioned his wish that"
• Remove "as this single" at the end of the sentence because you already mentioned the stripped down comment is referencing the song
• the A.V. Club → The A.V. Club
• "were fond of it, with the former called it "masterful"," → "being fond of it; the former noted a "masterful closer"," per relevance
• Chorus.fm should not be italicised and pipe to AbsolutePunk
• You should mention what Insider liked about the song after them praising the singer's intentions, as otherwise the review seems negative when this is not the case; do the same for Chorus.fm

Y Done. infsai (talkie? UwU) 17:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Listicles

• Retitle to lists
• Remove or replace The Tab per WP:RSSM
• "On Rolling Stone-published" → "On a Rolling Stone-published"
• "commenting that his song" → "commenting that the song"
• "put the song at 21st position of" → "placed the song at the 21st position on"
• "writing "[p]icking apart" → "writing: "Picking apart" because this is a full sentence quoted
• Mention what the list compiled by Langford is of
• "with a comment that it is" → "with him commenting that it is"
• "not exactly groundbreaking."" → "not exactly groundbreaking"."
• "according to Brodsky," → "published by Brodsky,"
• Pipe Billboard to Billboard (magazine)
• "at number four concluding" → "at number four, concluding" and put more of this quote into your own words per WP:QUOTEFARM

Y Done. infsai (talkie? UwU) 17:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Commercial performance

• Write the full name of the US Billboard Hot 100
• "at number two on Bubbling Under Hot 100." → "at number two on the Bubbling Under Hot 100 chart."
• "on Hot Rock & Alternative Songs at" → "on the US Hot Rock & Alternative Songs chart at"
• "at placements such as 59 and 80," → "at numbers 59 and 80,"
• "on UK Streaming Chart and number 9 on" → ""on the UK Streaming Chart and number 9 on the" with the pipe

Y Done. infsai (talkie? UwU) 17:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Music video

Background and synopsis

• "depression on memory."" → "depression on memory"." on the img text, per MOS:QUOTE
• Excitement among Eilish's fans is not sourced, nor is the 9 AM release time
• Pipe Pacific Time to Pacific Time Zone
• "It has been directed and edited by the singer." → "The video was directed and edited by Eilish."
• "wrote that it was" → "wrote that the visual was"
• "and "joy"." → "and "such a joy"." per the source
• "from Happier Than Ever era" → "from the Happier Than Ever era"
• Wikilink as jump cuts
• "Besides aforementioned color," → "Besides the aforementioned color,"
• "The cisual features Eilish alone" → "The visual features Eilish wandering alone"
• "to the song's opening line." → "to the song's opening verse." per the sourcing
• "is depicted depressed,[65] and" → "is depicted as depressed and" moving [65] solely to the end of the sentence as the first ref
• "rolls around the bed." → "rolls around in bed." moving [73] to also being at the end of this sentence
• The chorus being when she does those activities is not sourced
• [73] should solely be at the end of the sentence where you currently invoke it after a comma and the end
• "check up the fridge" → "checks up on the fridge." but this being during the second verse is not sourced
• "with courtains drawn." → "with curtains drawn."
• "just with different positions made" → "only differing in the positions made"

Y Done. infsai (talkie? UwU) 16:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Reception

• Remove pipe on Complex
• Remove or replace uDiscover Music per discussion
• "and Uproxx it was described" → "and Uproxx, it was described"
• "Broadway World's Michael Major labled" → "BroadwayWorld's Michael Major labeled" with the wikilink
• Remove pipe on Billboard
• "In other article," → "In a separate article,"
• "In Rolling Stone article, Paul Larisha wrote that" → "For Rolling Stone, Paul Larisha wrote,"
• the Far Out Magazine → Far Out Magazine, per the article
• "or a breakup."" → "or a breakup"."

Y Done. infsai (talkie? UwU) 16:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Live performances

• Pipe Vevo Live to Vevo
• Remove wikilink on YouTube
• "has been directed by Kyle Goldberg and was shot" → "was directed by Kyle Goldberg and shot"
• "Wearing white cutout sweater" → "Wearing a white cutout sweater"
• "mahagony hotel bedroom," → "mahogany hotel bedroom,"
• "while her brother, Finneas, is featured on" → "while Finneas is featured on"
• "and that her voice is a" → "and her voice is a"
• Wikilink Dazed
• "while calling the whole rendition as" → "while summarizing the rendition as"
• "which featured a performance" → "which features a performance"
• "On December 11," → "On December 11, 2021,"
• [76][84][85][86][87] is too many sources at the end of the sentence; move around to being at separate points to fix this
• "on a floor wearing sweatshirt," → "on a floor wearing sweatshirts,
• Remove or replace uDiscover Music per discussion
• "whereas Peters dubbed it as" → "whereas Michael Peters dubbed it as"
• Remove or replace PopSugar per it being a gossip website
• "Next year, the singer" → "In 2022, the singer" per the year being mentioned too long ago
• "and Not My Responsibility interlude. The artist plays" → "and the Not My Responsibility interlude. Eilish played"

Y Done. infsai (talkie? UwU) 16:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Credits and personnel

• Pipe vocals to Singing

Y Done. infsai (talkie? UwU) 16:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Charts

• Good

References

• Copyvio score looks very good at 28.6%!!!
• WP:OVERLINK of Billboard on refs 8, 12 and 20
• Rolling Stone UK → Rolling Stone on ref 9 with the wikilink
• Cite MTV as publisher instead on ref 14
• Add url-access limited to ref 16
• Cite contactmusic.com as publisher instead on refs 17 and 43, only wikilinking on the former
• Wikilink The Independent on ref 18
• Author-link Rob Sheffield on ref 19
• Remove wikilink on Rolling Stone for refs 23, 29 and 78
• TheList.com → The List on ref 26
• Cite Uproxx as publisher instead on refs 28 and 44, only wikilinking on the former
• Fix MOS:QWQ issues for ref 30
• Wikilink The Sydney Morning Herald on ref 34
• Pipe Slate to Slate (magazine) on ref 36
• Cite MTV Australia as publisher instead on ref 41
• HypeBeast → Hypebeast on ref 42
• Author-link Neil McCormick on ref 45
• Cite The Ringer as publisher instead on ref 48
• Cite Chorus.fm as publisher instead on ref 51 and pipe to AbsolutePunk
• Wikilink Australian Recording Industry Association on ref 61
• WP:OVERLINK of Consequence on ref 65
• Wikilink Far Out Magazine on ref 66
• WP:OVERLINK of Pitchfork on ref 67
• ET Canada → Entertainment Tonight Canada on ref 70 with the wikilink
• Remove or replace refs 72 and 87 per discussion
• WP:OVERLINK of NME on ref 80
• Wikilink Hot Press on ref 82
• WP:OVERLINK of Teen Vogue on ref 88
• Remove or replace ref 89 per the website being gossip
• Pipe Nola.com to The Times-Picayune/The New Orleans Advocate on ref 91

Y Done. infsai (talkie? UwU) 16:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Final comments and verdict

•  On hold until all of the issues are fixed; good thing I completed this today on my day off! --K. Peake 11:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
  • @Kyle Peake: I applied to every note you gave me, with exception of uDiscover Music. According to the discussion you linked, uDiscover Music can be used sparingly, for this article it is only used for opinions and just stating things can be observed in the music video, usually paired with the other source. Thus I did not remove any of those references, and I don't think we should. Waiting for the reply! :) infsai (talkie? UwU) 16:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

• Infsai I beg to differ since the discussion is acknowledging it being used sparingly, but in this article you are using it for reviews of the video and a performance, which meets the unreliability standard listed there. In the given context, it is unreliable for music video description because this can be biased too and the author's background does not show any reputable history as a journalist. Your effort is much appreciated though and thank you for working hard on implementing my suggestions! --K. Peake 19:50, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

• Kyle Peake Okay, I removed uDiscover Music, I guess I did all of your notes, but please check if I missed something, because I am clumsy. infsai (talkie? UwU) 01:42, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• Infsai You forgot to move the last cut and release info for the new order of the lead, missed changing Eilish to Billie Eilish in the body while wikilinking Finneas O'Connell, there was no source(s) added for the chorus' final line and the one as following it, not all of the MOS:QUOTE instances were resolved, the issues in the "melancholy and ethereal" quote area were not fixed and no sourcing was added for excitement among her fans about the mv. --K. Peake 08:56, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• Kyle Peake Ok, fixed those! The part where Eilish asks "Want me to sing here?" is sourced in [38], I added "after singing 'I know I should, but I could never hate you'" part, so the reader would get an idea where this quote is coming from. Fans' excitement is sourced in [66]: "The video is set to premiere at 17:00 GMT today (December 6th) with a slew of fans already sharing their excitement in the comments section as they await the song going live." infsai (talkie? UwU) 09:20, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• Infsai The release part is supposed to be the fourth of the para, elsewise good. K. Peake 09:55, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• Kyle Peake You mean that it should be moved before "The verses touch on subjects including (...)" sentence? infsai (talkie? UwU) 09:58, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• Infsai Yes, but write "the song was released" instead. --K. Peake 10:22, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• Kyle Peake But why? For me, it makes more sense to put a sentence about song's content after a sentence about the music. But I might be wrong.. infsai (talkie? UwU) 10:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• Infsai Basic info is appropriate to come first in the lead, which is what release is more than the lyrical content. --K. Peake 12:59, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• Kyle Peake I don't know, but for me it feels kind of stupid, but I changed it anyways. infsai (talkie? UwU) 17:46, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• Infsai ✓ Pass now, to be honest most song articles place the release date in this position. --K. Peake 21:58, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Z1720 (talk) 17:09, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Billie Eilish associates light blue color with "Male Fantasy"? Source: https://archive.today/20210810171327/https://insta-stories.online/billieeilish
  • ALT1: ... that Billie Eilish directed and edited video of "Male Fantasy" by herself? Source: https://pitchfork.com/news/watch-billie-eilish-new-video-for-male-fantasy/
  • ALT2: ... that Billie Eilish's "Male Fantasy" reportedly "sneaks up and destroys you emotionally"?

Improved to Good Article status by Infsai (talk). Self-nominated at 10:37, 27 February 2022 (UTC).

• I'm not entirely sure if either of these hooks are interesting enough for a DYK. The alternative is more interesting than the first but I'm wondering if there are another facts about the article to suggest? GamerPro64 01:50, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
• @Infsai: In case you missed my review. GamerPro64 01:23, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
• Left the nominator a message on March 31st and gave them a week to respond. If they are unable to return to this nomination by April 7th the nomination could be marked for closure as unsuccessful. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:14, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
  • @GamerPro64 and Narutolovehinata5: suggested an ALT2 from the Rolling Stone piece? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 22:03, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
    • I think that might fine. GamerPro64 22:54, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
      • If you two think so, I can approve it.
      • Fine interesting GA, on good sources, no copyvio obvious. The hook leaves completely open what the bolded thing is, but obviously that is accepted for some topics. It certainly raises curiosity. - In the lead, there's his phrase "due to feeling like credits", what does that mean? - Having been picked for a final track might be a more factual thing to say, - the title seems catchy enough by itself ;) - I'd also be open for a hook about "how "stupid and unrealistic" pornography is". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:21, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
        • @Gerda Arendt: how about an ALT3: ... that Billie Eilish's "Male Fantasy" came from her perception of pornography as "stupid and unrealistic"?
        • ALT2 is still good (arguably hookier), but this is more substantial, which I know you like. Promoter can pick, if you're cool with it :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 08:02, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
          • good idea, thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:05, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
          • (for explanation: for us foreigners who don't know the singer, Billie and Billy are so similar that it would not be necessarily recognized as a women's name) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:07, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Promoted ALT2 to Prep 5. Z1720 (talk) 17:09, 8 April 2022 (UTC)