Talk:Kurt Hummel

Brittany

Should Brittany be listed under "Significant Other" in Kurt's infobox? The two were a couple in Laryngitis, albeit briefly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.10.161.4 (talk) 21:21, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

No, he was trying to figure himself out, and impress his dad, by imitating Finn, I don't call that a significant other. CTJF83 chat 02:55, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

However, Santana is listed as one of Finn's significant others in his infobox and they were just a one-night stand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.10.161.4 (talk) 06:38, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Kurt and Brittany didn't have a one night stand, they had a pretend relationship so Kurt could act like Finn and attempt to please his dad. CTJF83 chat 20:02, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

It's arguable that it was pretend. Brittany, of course, didn't think anything was out of the ordinary and Kurt was "experimenting." Perhaps not a "true" relationship, but "real" nonetheless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.10.161.4 (talk) 04:14, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

"Kurt Elizabeth Hummel"

Should we note this in some way?

Yes, in "Duets," somebody -- it's not entirely clear whom -- casts a vote for "Kurt Elizabeth Hummel." I think it's clear that the middle name is a joke; it's a reference to the stage version of The Producers in which "Adolf Elizabeth Hitler" is said to be descended from "a long line of English queens," and the flamboyant gay director is "Roger Elizabeth DeBris." To explain a joke is to kill it, but in this case it's an allusion to Kurt performing a song from stage and screen; to Kurt being gay; and -- most of all -- to Kurt's "duet" performance specifically being about "embracing both the male and the female sides." (It doesn't hurt that Victor/Victoria and The Producers were both films that later went to Broadway, but that's just the cherry on the sundae.)

That this is a blink-and-you'll-miss-it joke seems much more likely than concluding that Kurt's parents actually named him "Kurt Elizabeth Hummel." (Seriously, can you imagine Burt saddling his kid with such a name? Really?) I don't really think it's particularly worth mentioning in the article, but perhaps we should have a one-sentence summary somewhere down below just so people don't keep changing his name at the start to "Kurt Elizabeth Hummel"? Or is overall consensus entirely against me here? --Shmuel (talk) 02:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Not worth mentioning. CTJF83 chat 02:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I believe you are entirely correct, and that it's just another one of Glee's musical theatre references, this time to Hitler à la The Producers. It could be mentioned in the article, but as a joke, it's not really worth it (one small trivial detail from one small scene from one episode). Yves (talk) 02:12, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Unless he brings it up and confirms anything, I don't think it is notable at all...we don't know who wrote it, but judging from what Will said, he probably voted for himself. CTJF83 chat 02:17, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Ryan Murphy confirmed that Kurt's middle name is Elizabeth in a recent Q&A on November 5th. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.134.76.243 (talk) 07:01, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Cheerleading

Kurt was a member of the Cheerios, the high school cheerleading squad, in season 1. Do we know if he still is in season 2? --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 00:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Unconfirmed, but he stopped wearing his uniform after winning Nationals with the Céline medley in "Funk". You can see it is absent in "Theatricality" onward. Yves (talk) 00:57, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Someone removed him from the category 'Fictional cheerleaders" so I put it back. Do not remove it. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 03:43, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Please don't issue demands. I removed it, and am not in favour of its re-insertion. Its relevance to Kurt is so minor that there's only a single sentence mention of it in the entire article. Frickative 03:59, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

ETA: Relevant guidelines - wrt Kurt, cheerleading constitutes a non-defining or trivial characteristic, and per WP:CLN:

"A category is probably inappropriate if the answer to the following questions is "no":

• Is it possible to write a few paragraphs or more on the subject of a category, explaining it?

• If you go to the article from the category, will it be obvious why it's there? Is the category subject prominently discussed in the article?" Frickative 04:06, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Before someone redid this entire article it was addressed. It was a big deal that Kurt made the cheerleading squad. He and Mercedes (It is in her article still) joined the squad. Kurt was one of the reasons the squad went on to win Nationals again, because of the Celine Dion cover he performed during the routine. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 11:58, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Frickative, very minor part of his character, no category necessary. Plus, you appear to have a clear bias in including the category. CTJF83 15:10, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Adam Kolkin

Yesterday, I noticed a random blip of "dam Kolkin (child)" with a reference tag after it. I didn't know what it was supposed to mean, so I put a clarify tag next to it. Clicking the link for the reference led to an article about Adam Kolkin who played Kurt as a child in a flashback. Someone deleted the text from the article along with my clarify tag, but left the reference by itself.

Maybe the person who put in the text originally was trying to insert it under "Portrayed by" but missed? Should Adam Kolkin be listed? Without him being listed, the reference doesn't make much sense.

musicalmeg20 (talk) 20:39, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I think listing him in the infobox would give undue weight to his appearance, as he only plays Kurt in a single segment less than three minutes long - but he could and should be mentioned in the body of the article, probably either in the storyline or casting section. Frickative 20:49, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I added a couple sentences about him to the Casting section. If someone feels it belongs in a different section, feel free to move it. musicalmeg20 (talk) 01:55, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I removed the "dam Kolkin (child)" because I thought it was vandalism, guess I removed too much and didn't reclarify. CTJF83 chat 02:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Storylines

I just put up a short summary of episodes 9 through 16, which might stop additional long-form versions. I hope the references are adequate; I put up the text without them, and scraped up four as quickly as I could, allowing links to episodes listed in the text carry the rest of the load. If it needs more references, please feel free to add some.

I hope the summary is a decent blend of brevity and accuracy. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:29, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

We need to revisit Blaine

On the show tonight, they outright admitted that Blaine was Kurt's boyfriend (when their comment to Sam about him cheating with Quinn and Kurt was "Both of them have boyfriends!"). We need to, at the very least, revisit the consensus that the two of them are not dating. We should continually being doing that as the show evolves and the canon changes anyway. 205.215.249.198 (talk) 04:08, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, especially since the very first thing the voice-over said at the beginning of the episode was "Kurt's back at McKinley, but he's still dating Blaine." I haven't been able to find this apparent consensus here, on the Blaine Anderson talk page, or in the Glee task force. I saw some mild hesitancy mentioned, but I think the most recent episode is the final nail, personally. There were many references to Kurt and Blaine's relationship in addition to the voice over. "I can't believe Kurt would do that to Blaine." "I'm telling you, Kurt wouldn't cheat on Blaine." "He's not worth losing Blaine over." "They both have boyfriends." Also I know I heard interviews with Ryan and Ian at Paleyfest the day after 2x16 confirming they're boyfriends. Unfortunately, they're harder to track down now that it's been almost two months. If only I'd realized then that this would be contentious... --Siradia (talk) 04:48, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Glee#Significant_others relates to general relationships...now, I haven't gotten around to watching the newest episode yet, so can't specifically weigh in. CTJF83 17:27, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll add my voice to those who think it's past time for both of their pages to reflect the fact that they're dating and everyone sees them as a couple. And since Blaine's going to be at the McKinley prom (that preview is already on line), and Darren Criss has said that Blaine and Kurt are still in the "honeymoon" phase of their relationship through the end of this season, I say we should go for it. Now, what does it require to achieve "consensus"? Or, put another way, who still thinks this relationship is not significant in Glee terms. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:01, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Okay, after "Rumours (Glee)" I feel that their relationship has definitely been more established. I'm not going to object to Blaine being added to the infobox anymore. However, with Glee the couples don't necessarily always remain together and break up as soon as they get start again. I would like to hear what some of the other members of the task force have to say on it. I would suggest posting a thread for this at WP:GLEE for a broader consensus. HorrorFan121 (talk) 20:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

FAC nom

Article needs a copyedit. Are you willing to go through the grueling process of watching it get done? --Moni3 (talk) 21:29, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think. =/ Should I take it to WP:GOCE? HorrorFan121 (talk) 21:32, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Not just yet. FACs can be a bit shocking and bloody if you've never nominated an article before. I see this is your first. If you don't mind, I'm going to do some copyediting to assist you. I assure you that I'm tailoring it to what will be expected at FAC, so when you see some large changes, don't panic.

When I'm finished, I'm going to place a list of suggestions about what to change or consider shifting. I haven't read all the sources and I'm assuming you have, so your knowledge about what is accurate to the sources is integral to this process. If I change anything to make it inaccurate, let me know here on the talk page.

I've written 20 FAs and I believe that the article for Willow Rosenberg (which I wrote) is a good parallel for this one. The articles share many of the same issues. I've not nominated that article for FA, but I think it meets the standards. Just some background because you don't know me from Adam. --Moni3 (talk) 21:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I've heard about some nasty FA nominations before. Thank you so much for your willingness to do some copyediting and assist. ;) I'm perfectly okay with that, as long as you're willing to do so. I think the article has potential to succeed, and that's what I would like to see happen. HorrorFan121 (talk) 22:03, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Fix the citation for the Late Night with Jimmy Fallon source. I stuck a tag there just so you can get to it quickly.  Done
• I don't understand what the article is trying to convey with this quote: "It's true: You can be famous—even if there's no money left in the world."
• Be very careful here: in trying to get the essence of what the source is saying, I clicked on this link to see that Kurt or Colfer isn't mentioned. Why is it being used in this article? Your nomination can get archived quickly for sourcing problems. Make sure the sources say what they are being cited for.

 Done Removed the source. Not sure how that line ended up in there because it's not a neutral POV.

• Also, it's much stronger to get a third party overview of what occurs in the series than cite facts from the show to the individual episodes. Try to get an episode guide, either in print or online, that recounts what occurs in the episode. And of course, make sure it's a reliable source.
• I'm not seeing commentary on an aspect of character development that I've noticed and I wonder if critics have addressed it. Kurt is supremely talented, but is relegated to a supporting singing position at Dalton. He doesn't understand why. Dalton is more of a team effort and Kurt is so atypical and outstanding (and flamboyant with "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina") that Blaine tells him to tone it down for the sake of the team at Dalton.
• Some commentary on Kurt's musical performances should be included. Is he good? Bad? What do critics say about him overall?

 Done Commentary added about a well received song in Born This Way (Glee).

• I've done my first copy edit. It can stand another, and I will come back another day and re-read it. It's a pretty good read so far. Good job on it. --Moni3 (talk) 23:28, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks again. I'm extremely appreciative of this. I'll get to work right away on fixing those suggestions up. HorrorFan121 (talk) 23:31, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Hey, also: when you nominate an article, be really clear why you chose to work on the article in question. Everyone says "I think it meets FA standards and..." but then no one is reading because that's boring. You need to say something in two sentences that will attract reviewers, either an emotional connection to the subject (I chose to write about Kurt because his storyline fascinates me for reason X) or a very assertive statement (Kurt Hummel is the God of All Television and if you don't agree you suck). But less abrasive than that. You can tinker with the nomination statement and now is the best time to do it. --Moni3 (talk) 23:54, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I just tweaked it. Does that sound a little more interesting? HorrorFan121 (talk) 00:07, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Yah, that rocked it. --Moni3 (talk) 00:15, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Things to watch for in future edits:

• Watch for repetitive statements or similarly worded clauses in the same paragraph and especially in back-to-back sentences. A lot of the nuances of brilliant prose that go in FAs are simply practice. You have to learn how to spot a problematic phrase and figure out how to rephrase it. Not until I wrote maybe my 5th FA did I start to incorporate these small style issues from the start of writing an article.
• Make sure your punctuation is outside the quote when the quote is not a complete sentence. Go through the entire article to check for this.
• Overlinking. Many of these episode titles are linked every time they appear. A good rule of thumb is once, the first time the term appears in the prose, and if there are multiple sections, maybe once more. No more than twice.
• When critical commentary is presented, it must be in present tense, as in "Critic Hubert J. Puffnstuff writes..." Yes, it looks very bizarre when you do it at first, and to be honest, I don't really know why it's done that way, but it is for critical commentary in FAs.
• Take care not to link common terms or anything that cannot be linked outside a quote in a quote. Say what? When you have a quote by Hubert J. Puffnstuff, who says "I think Kurt best resembles a barrel of fish", don't link fish in his quote. First, because you're interpreting the critic's words by linking to what he means and you should leave that alone as much as possible. Second, there's no reason to link to common terms. Third, if the name of an actor, character, or episode is available somewhere outside the quote, it should be linked there. Sometimes avoiding linking in a quote is just so awkward to avoid that it makes the sentence ridiculously garbled. Don't go that far, but pay attention to using links in quotes.
• I like the critical commentary that you added on Kurt's musical performances. Are there more general statements about his voice quality, how it's used, etc., rather than specific comments on specific songs?
• Pay attention to the way each sentence starts in each paragraph. If they all start the same way: "Critic X says this. Critic Y writes this." The paragraph overall becomes stale. You want to pull your readers into the next sentence by mixing up the way the sentences are constructed.

I vaguely recall when I first started that no one could be so picky as to care about most of the issues I was told to fix in my first few FAs. They do. --Moni3 (talk) 21:35, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Ahh. So these are some that you fixed during the copyedit? HorrorFan121 (talk) 22:56, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Featured Article Nomination Process

BlueMoonset suggested we start a section on here in case any issues happen to arrive during Kurt's second featured article nomination process, which I just started here. HorrorFan121 (talk) 04:33, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't know about you, but I feel like I've just been run over by a truck. Especially since most of the problematic prose appears to be mine. How do you want to handle the response? I've come up with solutions to all the points; should I just apply them, or should you do it since you're the nominator? You are the point person (sorry about that), so you're definitely the one to communicate on the actual page. Here they are:

• item 1: "In the show's second season, Kurt is forced to transfer to a private school for his own safety after a closeted classmate bullies him relentlessly and then threatens to kill him."
• item 2: "Kurt joins the Dalton Academy Warblers, the school's glee club, which is a competition rival of New Directions. He is befriended by their openly gay lead singer, Blaine Anderson." (I don't think it works as well with the sentences combined, though if you disagree, either "and" or "and he" could work; the reviewer seemed to prefer "where he", but the "where" doesn't have an appropriate antecedent. I've just realized that the article doesn't mention Dalton as being all-male, nor the Warblers as being a cappella. We must have decided both were insufficiently relevant here.
• item 3: I thought we weren't supposed to include references in the intro. That particular phrase is part of a larger quote in Characterization, where it is referenced. I can easily add an extra ref up above (by giving the one below a name to reference to), and see what others reviewers have to say. Or you can say you've done it, and explain why we hadn't before. Up to you.
• item 4: My solution was to kill the "which is the show's primary musical group"; it is indeed awkward, and it's implicit in the earlier text that says the show focuses on the glee club at McKinley, ergo, it's primary. I combined the remaining text into a single sentence: "Kurt is a member of the club; his storylines in the first season focus on his struggle with his sexuality as he comes out to his father and friends, and deals with his crush on Finn Hudson, the straight co-captain of the glee club." Of course, if he didn't like the first sentence, there's nothing here that addresses that segment.
• item 5: I got too cute with the awards sentence, trying to combine awards and nominations. Put a period after "Golden Globe Awards" instead of a comma. The new second sentence would read as follows: "He has also garnered many award nominations, which include the 2010 and 2011 Emmy Awards for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series." I'm not happy with "including" in the first sentence and "which include" in the new second, but everything else I've tried is worse. I'm (wide) open to suggestion.

I've actually got an edit on the Kurt Hummel page ready to go with what I have listed above, which I can implement (or modify and then implement) to save time. What I haven't done yet is gone over the rest of the article. At the moment, doing so seems too daunting. I do hope that it will be less of an issue there, since we have done more work there than we did on the intro. I should probably point out that I've strayed from a number of the offered suggestions, in large part because they were examples from someone who doesn't know the show well if at all; some of the word choices are simply (and, I suppose, inevitably) inappropriate. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:41, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Hmm..I just looked at the review page. I can't believe we're getting pinged for the lead again. That was a huge problem last time. You can apply them if you already have them partially saved, but I can also do it as well if you feel that's best, but since you already have your edit prepared then I think you should just save it. Don't feel bad about the lead. Everybody goes through this during the FAC process, because the reviewers can be very picky. HorrorFan121 (talk) 03:17, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's a problem if I apply the edits—I just saved them on the page after reading this, in fact—but the replies on the FAC page needs to come from the nominator, so I wanted to be sure you knew what I'd done (and was proposing to do). Plus, I'm not the only one with good ideas for wording around here, and figured that you or Frickative might come up with an improvement or three. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:06, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh, of course. I already let the user who left those comments a note saying that we had begun collaborating on making the necessary changes to the lead. Should I let him know that we've started fixing it up? HorrorFan121 (talk) 05:02, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Sure. I've made all the changes I intend to make; I think we've addressed everything that was pointed out. I've just checked the MOS, and quotes, even in the intro, do need to be cited, so the request for a reference there is warranted; no need to ask a question about that. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:33, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I just dropped him a message on the nomination page. HorrorFan121 (talk) 05:43, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Some more problems have come up with the lead, though we did get a good nod signifying that the rest of the article is in significantly better shape. =/

• "In "Home", Finn discovers that his mother Carole (Romy Rosemont) and Kurt's father have been dating, though not that Kurt introduced them in the hopes that he could eventually spend more time with Finn." Do you mean "although he is unaware that Kurt introduced them..."?

This seems like an quick easy fix.

• "Early in the second season, Burt suffers a heart attack and is comatose in the hospital, leaving Kurt terrified of losing him." Can this sentence be constructed differently?

How about something like "After Burt suffers a heart attack and is rendered comatose in the hospital, Kurt becomes terrified of losing him"?

• "Kurt and Blaine later try to talk to Karofsky about being gay and closeted, but he denies that the kiss happened and soon resumes his bullying—he even threatens to kill Kurt if he tells anyone else about their kiss." Awkward, and probably incorrect dash.

I'm not sure how to re-word this. Maybe "Kurt and Blaine try to talk to Karofsky about the incident with Kurt, but he denies that it ever took place and resumes his bullying agenda towards him"?

• "At Dalton, Kurt joins the Warblers, and the Warblers and New Directions tie at Sectionals, meaning both will be competing at Regionals." Awkward.

Kurt ends up joining the Dalton Academy Warblers, and ends up in a tie with New Directions at Sectionals, which means both will be competing against each other at Regionals?

• " Karofsky, abruptly faced with having to publicly dance with a guy in the traditional dance between King and Queen, cannot do it; rejecting Kurt's suggestion that he come out then and there, he instead leaves Kurt alone on the dance floor, and Kurt dances with Blaine instead." Awkward.
• "When the glee club arrives for Nationals in "New York", Kurt and Rachel sneak into the Gershwin Theatre where Wicked is playing; from the stage, they sing a song from that musical, "For Good"." Awkward.
• To describe someone as "out" is colloquial and un-encyclopedic. Use "openly gay" instead. I'm also not sure if saying that Kurt "comes out" is formal. I'd prefer something like "Kurt openly acknowledges his homosexuality" or "Kurt reveals that he is gay" or something similar. But it may be personal taste.

I can easily fix this.

Okay, so I don't think anything brought up here seems too unmanageable. I was wondering if either Fricative or yourself had any suggestions on the last three though? HorrorFan121 (talk) 08:45, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind, but I've entered edits for all of these on the Kurt Hummel article and saved them, and also included maybe half a dozen others in the Storylines and other sections. I think they address the issues raised, including the one that it isn't enough just to work on the instances mentioned, but more copyediting needs to be done. I think there are enough extra changes this time to show good intent, even if more is found in the next round.

In particular, I did some work on a few of the more complex sentences, which combine a number of ideas; these seem to be the type of sentence that gets called out for being "awkward". Part of what will help is turning them from one sentence to two or more, and rewording or rearranging the new sentences. One example: the sentence near the end of season one on "Theatricality"—that ends with Finn getting kicked out—was one that I pulled apart like this. I'm not perfectly happy with the final few words, now that "throws him out" is gone (see "colloquialisms", below), but it's much better.

The colloquialisms were called out, in particular "comes out". I've changed all but two of them: the sentence about Karofsky at the prom was one; since Kurt actually says to Karofsky, "come out", I was especially loath to do that one (especially because the editor admits it may be an issue of "personal taste"), even as I realized that many of these colloquialisms are there because our prose is echoing the dialogue: Kurt says "I blew the note" about "Defying Gravity" to his father, which now says "misses the note" rather than "blows the note", and I also changed "making out" (Kurt/Brittany) and a couple of others. Probably the biggest change was "crush", where Kurt's crushes on Finn and Blaine were remarked on in both Storylines and Relationships. I think I managed to eliminate all uses of it. Similarly, "love interest"; we had three in close proximity (never good), and now the only one that's left separates two new uses of "boyfriend". One word I have no intention of changing is "chemistry", since it's used by all those Hollywood types to mean something that's nebulous to begin with (that good ol' "something something"). If necessary, we can use quotes and references; the thought of attempting to interpret what they meant makes my hair stand on end.

I'd like to let you have a chance to review and address anything else (if I missed something from the new list of problem sentences, please let me know, or fix it yourself); if you want, I can then write today's response to Orane unless you'd rather. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:46, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I just played around with some ideas for that response. Let me know whether this works for you:

We've addressed the specific places you mentioned, and several other spots in the article as well. We also looked for colloquialisms, and changed those we thought might be problematic. Thank you for pointing these out to us; we hope you find the article improved.

BlueMoonset (talk) 00:24, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to review the changes you made in full right now. :) I think it might be good if you left that message on the review page, since you were the one that performed the changes. HorrorFan121 (talk) 00:53, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

That's fine by me. I'll wait about twenty minutes to see whether you have changes or comments; if I don't see anything from you by then, I'll leave that message there, with its first person plural. :-) BlueMoonset (talk) 01:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I think everything looks much better now. Nice work! I don't think anything looks particularly "awkward" anymore, so you can go add your notice to the review page. HorrorFan121 (talk) 01:25, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Awkward is in the eye of the beholder. :-) Also, and more seriously, what looks perfectly fine to us because we're familiar with the character and have read the article many times will leap out at a reader who is familiar with neither. I fully expect there to be a couple more rounds at least. But we're definitely closer. I wonder whether anyone else will engage... BTW, I've made almost no progress on "Special Education" the last couple of days; how's Dave Karofsky coming along? BlueMoonset (talk) 02:05, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that can be a problem sometimes. Someone having never seen Glee could reason some of the articles and go, "What the heck does that mean?" Haha! I think there will be some other issues, but hopefully none of them are too bad. I can't even remember how many times it's been copy-edited by users previous to this nomination. Karofsky's article's really not getting anywhere. We have a ton of information on reception of the character and the bullying storyline, but I really can't find anything on casting and that's pretty important. I need to do some serious digging on that one. HorrorFan121 (talk) 02:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm much more optimistic after Orane/Journalist's edits just now, and the post to the FAC. One question about the edit: do we want to say that Kurt typically chooses show tunes and songs sung by women, or is it more important to say show tunes typically sung by women? I was thinking about "A House Is Not A Home" (Dionne Warwick), "Bad Romance", and how Kurt was going to do Whitney Houston in "Laryngitis" before changing to Mellencamp, and Celine Dion in "Special Education" before changing to "Don't Cry For Me Argentina". Not to mention Madonna's non-film music. Hmm; I think I've answered my question: while he shows a predilection for show tunes, he'll also go with the other frequently enough. Though perhaps a little modification is in order to have the women cover both show tunes and other music... On Karofsky, I seem to remember seeing something about Ryan Murphy being impressed with Adler during "Theatricality", and thinking he should do more with that character/actor on the show, perhaps while working on "Furt". Should I take another look? I can't recall anything about the first appearance, though. (I still like Karofsky's line in "Mash-Up" about Finn teasing him in the fifth grade for "getting pubes", though.) Nothing to stop you from writing the other sections while waiting on casting and creation, though. The Storyline's getting a little lonely... ;-) BlueMoonset (talk) 03:53, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'm definitely more hopeful about seeing that comment on the review page. At least he isn't opposing the article now! ;) And that part about Murphy getting impressed by Adler could definitely help start that section. The "Reception" section could easily be pug together, which I can probably do soon. Some of it is already on Kurt's page, I believe. HorrorFan121 (talk) 04:20, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll keep looking for it; it wasn't in the first two articles I checked. When I do find it, I'll post it on your talk page; we should probably move the subject there and keep this for the review. Speaking of which, I did modify that one sentence about Kurt's singing in the intro... BlueMoonset (talk) 04:50, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

If I may offer a random thought--the reason I requested a quote in the introduction was because of the sentence that reads "...'I'm better than you' persona...", which I assume is a direct quotation from an interview with the actor. On the FAC page, I suggested "confident, often arrogant persona", which IMO relays the same point in a less wordy (awkward) sentence structure, but it seems like you guys weren't too fond of it, which is fine. The reference is ok, but I still prefer "arrogant", because it's a cleaner and less convoluted synonym for "I'm better than you". But it's totally up to you.

Also, the clause "for his solos, Kurt generally selects songs traditionally performed by women, mostly show tunes, that best suit his countertenor voice" becomes awkward (I know I use that word a lot, but bear with me lol) with the "mostly show tunes" forced into the middle of it. Not only does the sentence become awkward syntactically, but there are issues regarding its semantics. For example, does he perform mostly show tunes sung by women, or does his performances feature songs generally sung by women, of which some are show tunes? Do I makes sense?

Lastly, I watch Glee when I can find the time, although I haven't seen it in a looong while. But Kurt is definitely a character (his rendition of "Defying Gravity" was amazing), and I hate the lead singer's voice- too thin and cartoon-ey, like she should be voice-acting/singing in a disney princess animated film. Mercedes and Santana are better singers IMO. But I digress. Anyway, I hope this article passes, so good luck. Orane (talk) 05:16, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

"Kurt transfers from McKinley High to Dalton Academy, and while he soon falls in love with Blaine, his regard is initially not reciprocated, though Blaine considers Kurt a good friend." Opps, awkward phrasing. Sorry, it jumped out. Orane (talk) 05:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The thing about Kurt is that he doesn't come off as arrogant, at least not to me. "Arrogant" is a loaded word, and it didn't feel right for describing his character—at least, how it developed—so I was loath to use it when Colfer's actual words were there for the quoting...and interpreting. A closer word, in my view, might be "superior", but it also has its problems. I think it's mostly about attitude.

Yes, you make sense on the solos sentence, even if I'm coming to dread the word "awkward". ;-) What I was trying to get at—clearly unsuccessfully—was that Kurt prefers show tunes that are traditionally sung by women, though he clearly also likes to sing popular music by women, too, having sung Madonna and Lady Gaga, and mentioned singing Celine Dion and Whitney Houston. "Defying Gravity" is a perfect example, and the issue actually comes up during the show at the end of the second season in "Funeral", when Kurt sings "Some People" and Jesse St. James tries to criticize him because it's sung by a female character in the show. Maybe the problem is trying to get too much into the one sentence. This is the intro; we don't need to mention everything. I don't have an exact count (though I could probably make one easily enough), but I feel confident in stating that a majority of Kurt's solos in New Directions have been show tunes originally written for women.

I'll keep noodling at that "Kurt transfers" sentence. I think that's one where "crush" used to be... Just reading it right now, in isolation, I think I'd kill the entire "his regard is initially not reciprocated", and change "though Blaine" to "Blaine merely" or "Blaine only"; the obvious problem with that is that two uses of "Blaine" would now be one after the other. What I'd actually change would depend on the surrounding sentences. I think I'll look at them tomorrow, and give my subconscious a chance to work on it until then.

Thanks for taking the time to help out with this. I'm glad you like Glee; as you can read, a lot has happened since you last watched it. Kurt took center stage in the second season, and I'm hoping he continues to shine in season three. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:13, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Later: I've worked on both of those sentences; they're better now, and I hope no longer awkward. I did still try for the trifecta in the songs sung by women sentence; I think putting the countertenor information first and using em dashes later helps clarity. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:36, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, let's discuss the source problem here.

• 1. I think we should put Lisa Steinberg in as the publisher, as you suggested. That should be an easy fix.
• 2. The parentheses are there for the cite news templates, but not the cite web ones. I don't know why that's an issue, but I can make a point of it on the review page.
• 3. We might have to switch the episode citations for actual episode coverages. I didn't know that would be an issue, but it can certainly be easily fixed since most of them are on the respective episode pages anyway.
• 4. Okay, so I just realized that source doesn't mention Karofsky or anybody else for that matter. I don't think it even mentions that Kurt was almost beat up at the end of the episode, which is the whole reason the quote is there. We probably have to switch that one up.
• 5. The problem with the last thing mentioned is that the source for "Original Song" isn't repeated at the end of the line about them losing at Nationals. That's another quick fix.

All in all, I think these aren't that bad. The only big thing necessary would be to transfer the episode reviews in place of the simple episode citations we have listed. HorrorFan121 (talk) 02:13, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

It looks to me like you covered everything. Well done! I do hope they accept the "cite episode" templates as valid (if not, why do they even exist?). It's interesting that we've never been challenged on them in a GAN. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Yeah, I hope we don't have to replace them either. They're not just used in Glee articles, so I assumed they could be used anywhere. Haha! HorrorFan121 (talk) 07:53, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I just changed a bunch of references from "cite web" to "cite news" to fix inconsistencies. Most were because references containing the same publication used both (e.g., Hollywood Reporter, Billboard, CBS News, The Atlantic, etc.), but a few were clearly newspapers or magazines, or their online equivalent (see Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners with citation templates), such as the online sites for the Fresno Bee, Jacksonville Times-Union, and even TV Guide. I wondered about IGN and Entertainment Weekly, though I didn't change them; should those be news? We should probably come up with a standardized list for Glee articles as to where we believe the news/web line should be drawn; I'm puzzled as to where TVLine or Zap2it or The A.V. Club should fall. Feel free to move web to news changes back to web in Kurt's article for a particular publisher, but I'm pretty sure that each site is now consistently within one or the other designation. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:07, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I will not oppose the article, but at this time, I cannot support it, because the prose needs work. And a lot of it. I'll try to copyedit as much as I can (I'm the IP address), and help you guys to work through whenever I can. I only read to the end of the first season. I could not copyedit all of it, but I did what I could. I'll give it another go soon. Problems that pop out: the language is very colloquial. Whenever you're writing, always keep in the back of your mind that you're writing for an encyclopedia. Also, please cut down on the overuse of semi-colons; every other sentence has one. Orane (talk) 21:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

"Kurt invites Blaine to the McKinley junior prom in "Prom Queen". . . Both are shocked when, after Karofsky is voted Prom King, Kurt wins Prom Queen due to having..." Both are shocked? Were they the only two who had any reaction to this? Having seen the episode, I'd argue that a lot more than these two were shocked. Orane (talk) 05:34, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Before I address your latest comment (we were posting here at the same time, but you got in ahead of me), I wanted to thank you very much for the new edits, and if you have time for more that would be wonderful. I made a few further adjustments that I hope you'll like. I apologize for the semi-colons, which (as you can see) are a weakness of mine, even on Talk pages. The article now has only six of them remaining (I can't do anything about the five lurking in the references), which seems a reasonable number.

I'm having some trouble purging colloquial language in part because the text is so familiar to my eye, but also because the tone of other articles for Glee is similar, so it's harder to change gears. I'll try printing the article tomorrow in the expectation that the less-formal language will jump off the page better than it does off the screen.

As for "both", you're right: more than those two were shocked, but the silence was as much due to the conspirators—whoever they were—having realized they succeeded, and wondering what Kurt would do next. Since we don't know how the thing was organized, or what proportion of the promgoers were actually shocked (though I think we can safely include all the New Directions members except for Artie, who was in Sue's clutches), it seemed safer to stick to Blaine and Kurt there. To cast a wider net, either "They and the rest of New Directions" or perhaps "They and many other attendees" would be as (or more) appropriate. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:50, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Later: I've done a new set of small edits that fixes the specific issues you have mentioned (e.g., "both"), and removes additional colloquialisms. I believe we're continuing to make progress on improving the prose. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:44, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I've tweaked a few sections. Hope that helps. I also changed the "both were shocked" comment. We can simply say "many Prom goers were shocked". And that should obviously include Blaine and Kurt, since in the following statement, it was said that he was also humiliated, and that he ran (and is there really a need to emphasize their feeling of shock above the reaction of everyone else's? What exactly is the point of that). A part of good/clean prose is being as precise as possible, and avoiding unnecessary explanations. Readers are smart enough to read between the lines on things like these.

Also, I didn't watch the episode, but is Kurt really an atheist? The source in "characterization" does not support this claim. All they said was that the group had diverging views on spirituality. In this light, I've changed the comment in the "season two" section to Kurt being "agnostic", which I think may be more accurate. Feel free to edit/revert mercilessly as you see fit :).

I'm not sure if you were able to print the article and edit it by hand. If you did, how did that go? I think it's a really good technique. Print it off, read it aloud. And while you're reading, try to ensure that everything is said in the best possible way. One of the main reasons for the problems with the prose is that it's wordy. Here's a small example: a sentence reads "Finn attempts to convince them not to be partners". That could easily be replaced by "Finn attempts to dissuade them...". Think about finding the right synonym, and about saying things in a sophisticated and precise manner. The prose needs to be compelling. Orane (talk) 06:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it does help. Thank you. I did decide to take a different approach with the prom, which I think works better than what we had. There were some things I had to correct for reasons of accuracy: Kurt never reveals to Mercedes that he loves Finn; Finn doesn't call Kurt a "fag" but the new lamp and other items in their room "faggy"; and he tries to dissuade (nice word, BTW) Kurt, not Sam, with the prediction that Sam will bullied so much that he will be forced to quit. (He does try to dissuade them both, but uses a different argument with Sam; that part's less relevant because it's Kurt's article, and Finn's interaction with Sam doesn't affect the outcome.) I think the reason "homophobic slur" was originally used rather than "faggy" was to avoid the extra text needed to explain the redecoration; if "faggy" has to be there, the precipitating event seems to be needed as well. Finally, you changed one of the many occurrences of "storyline" to "story line". While the dictionaries list the latter as commonly used, the former is cited as an "also" spelling. Given the preponderance of usage (including one of the headers!), I'd prefer to retain it, but if you feel it's critical, we ought to make the change throughout. (I changed it back to "storyline" for the present to restore consistency.) BlueMoonset (talk) 19:12, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll write a proper response when I can. But great work with the copyedits. The article is coming along nicely, and will definitely have my support soon. Here's a suggestion before I forget: how do you feel about the second sentence in the lead. Aloud, it sounds awkward (there's that damn word again lol) to me. When the creators were envisioning Kurt, did they really say, "We want him to be a fashionable gay counter tenor who is routinely bullied at school"? Does that really sum up what he's about, if you had to do it in one sentence? Also, of high importance: please watch out for contractions. I see a couple of "he's" and "doesn'ts" that need to be fixed. Orane (talk) 22:19, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Interestingly, when I revisit the second sentence, what I have trouble with is the word "envision". I can easily see them sketching out Kurt and deciding on those attributes... given that they created the role for Chris after deciding they wanted to cast him. I was just reading an interview with Mark Salling—I needed some information on Puck—and he says that for his role, the breakdowns for the show gave the characterization as something like "Puck: man-child". My impression of Kurt in the pilot is that the characterization is indeed starting from "fashionable gay countertenor" and the routine bullying. It's not until "Acafellas" that we get a clue that there might be more there, and not until the next episode, "Preggers", where they figure out what the father-son dynamic really is (and it's significantly different from what we'd been led to believe in "Acafellas"). At any rate, I'd replace "envisioned him" with "initially conceived of him" or "initially imagined him" or even "introduced him" (the "initially" can be omitted from the first two). Of course, if we hadn't had to use "creators" earlier in the sentence, "created him" would have been ideal. Another approach would be "invented him to be" ("imagined" might also work in that construction). If you have any thoughts I'd love to hear them; otherwise, I'll probably pick one tomorrow.

I'm very glad to read that the article's coming along nicely. It's the first FAC I've been involved with, so it's hard to get a sense of where it stands. Thanks for pointing out those two contractions: it's one of my blind spots. I always think I've been good, and then one of the other Glee task force people will read what I've done, and correct a handful of them. Kind of embarrassing, actually. I'll do my best to remember to double-check all edits going forward. Your new edits were most welcome; as usual, I made one or two additional modifications. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:55, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Later: I made a bunch of new edits in the article, including the "Critical response" section. For the intro, I ultimately went with "initially conceived of him", but if you think one of the other choices is better, please feel free to use it instead. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

You're doing such a great job! I feel like I can't contribute much to this conversation because my copy-editing is not the best and I would screw up the prose more by trying to help (hah!), but I've been keeping a close eye on the edits you've been doing and they've all been terrific. ;) HorrorFan121 (talk) 03:28, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure the article will pass this time around (not because of oppose votes, but a lack of consensus). But, third time is the charm. Plus, at least when you go back, the prose will be perfect. Orane (talk) 03:55, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for all of your work in helping make the prose so good. In your view, how close is the article now to being supportable? Out of curiosity, since I'm new at this, is it a lack of consensus, a lack of interest in the topic, or a dearth of reviewers holding the article back? I just took another look at the first FAC attempt, and there were only two reviewers who got to the point of "grading", you and Dank. Should I drop a note on Dank's page asking him whether he's seen that it was back for a second time? How much longer before the decision on the candidacy is made? One advantage to it being looked over now is that the third season hasn't started yet, and the article is quite stable. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome. The article is pretty close to being supported, but the prose is not as polished as it could be. But that can be worked out. Yes, the lack of consensus is mostly due to a lack of interest in the topic. FAC has been suffering lately from a lack of input from reviewers, much to the fustration of the delegates who work to promote articles. And this results in a backlog that extends for months, because articles are just waiting to be reviewed. It's a very tiring and complicated process. Good article and peer reviews are both blessings and curses: on one hand, they ensure that an article is reviewed before it gets to the FAC process, so we don't have a lot of low-quality articles clogging up the page. But it also means that there needs to be adequate reviewers at each stage of the review process. And there just isn't enough people who are devoted to each stage. You may conact Dank, but one person won't make a difference (although it may give a fresh perspective, which may benefit the article), and may result in an oppose, since, as I said, the prose is still a bit rough in some areas, although it's coming along nicely. Orane (talk) 05:40, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Dank just responded: "It looks like another reviewer is close to supporting on prose. If not, let me know."

Thank you for the explanation about the process. It takes a lot of work by a lot of people; I'm in awe of everyone who devotes so much of their time to it. I'd like to get the article to the point that we can be supported, but I'm now so familiar with it that my eye's skipping over points that aren't as polished as they might be. It's also a style issue: I'm not used to FA style as opposed to GA, and it isn't my natural style, so it's harder for me to identify places that are problems. If someone points out problem spots, I'm pretty sure I can work them: the edits I've made so far seems to be meeting with your approval. Please let me know what you think our next steps should be at this point. It sounds to me like Dan might be saying that one user giving support might inspire others to look at it? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:45, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Mother - "Elizabeth Hummel"

It was never confirmed that Kurt's mother's name was Elizabeth. This should probably be removed.70.134.76.243 (talk) 07:15, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Request for Comments

There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:10, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

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