Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Kurt Hummel/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 14:29, 10 September 2011 [1].

Kurt Hummel edit

Nominator(s): HorrorFan121 (talk) 00:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kurt Hummel is one of the most fascinating and controversial characters on television today. He is an example of how people struggle with bullying in high school, has often been regarded as an icon for the gay community, and is referred to by critics as a "fashionista". His pairing with Blaine Anderson (Darren Criss) has become popular with fans and critics, with Jarett Wieselman of the New York Post labeling them "one of the most beloved TV couples of the millennium". Originally a supporting character on Glee, he's developed into one of the most complex leading characters to be featured on the show. The article is currently a Good Article, and has undergone a two peer reviews and several copy-edits by various users. This is the second time I've taken this article to FAC in hopes of it reaching FA status. HorrorFan121 (talk) 00:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No issues were revealed by copyscape searches. Graham Colm (talk) 17:26, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Comment. I only got past the intro, but the prose for me needs some work. It's choppy and awkward in places, and just doesn't flow as much as it could.

Instead of "In the second season, after a closeted jock classmate's bullying escalates and he threatens to kill Kurt, Kurt's father transfers him to a private school for his own safety" how about "In the show's second season, after intense bullying and death threats from a closeted classmate, Kurt is forced to transfer to a private school for his own safety."
And instead of "Kurt joins the school's glee club, the Dalton Academy Warblers, a competition rival of New Directions. He becomes friends with an out Dalton student, Blaine Anderson, the lead singer of the Warblers." You could write something like "Kurt joins the Dalton Academy Warblers, the school's glee club, and competition rival of New Directions, where he is befriended by their openly gay lead singer, Blaine Anderson".
"Colfer describes Kurt as projecting a very confident "I'm better than you" persona, but ultimately being a typically scared and anxious teenager." Is that a direct quote? If so, please cite. If its not a direct quote, how about "Colfer describes Kurt as projecting a very confident, often arrogant persona, despite being a typically scared and anxious teenager."
"Glee follows the trials of the New Directions glee club at the fictional William McKinley High School in the town of Lima, Ohio. Kurt is a member of the club, which is the show's primary musical group." Just awkward.
"Colfer's portrayal of Kurt has received much critical praise, and he has been the recipient of several awards, including Best Supporting Actor in a Series, Miniseries or Television Film at the 2011 Golden Globe Awards, and of award nominations such as those for the 2010 and 2011 Emmy Awards for Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series." I'm sure you can say this better.

And this is just the intro. I could help out, but I'm occupied in real life. But I'm going to have to Oppose until the prose is straightened out. Orane (talk) 23:00, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've corrected the "comment" to "oppose"; see FAC instructions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:22, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BlueMoonset (another editor who has put a significant amount of work in the article) and I are already at work fixing some of the problems that you addressed here. HorrorFan121 (talk) 03:20, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

fixed. Okay, we just changed some of the problems with the lead. How does that look now? HorrorFan121 (talk) 05:41, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, not fixed. Changing the three examples I cited in the lead does not fix the entire problem. The rest of the article is surprisingly cleaner than the introduction, so it may not need as much work as I though, but here are a few more examples

"In "Home", Finn discovers that his mother Carole (Romy Rosemont) and Kurt's father have been dating, though not that Kurt introduced them in the hopes that he could eventually spend more time with Finn." Do you mean "although he is unaware that Kurt introduced them..."?
"Early in the second season, Burt suffers a heart attack and is comatose in the hospital, leaving Kurt terrified of losing him." Can this sentence be constructed differently?
"Kurt and Blaine later try to talk to Karofsky about being gay and closeted, but he denies that the kiss happened and soon resumes his bullying—he even threatens to kill Kurt if he tells anyone else about their kiss." Awkward, and probably incorrect dash.
"At Dalton, Kurt joins the Warblers, and the Warblers and New Directions tie at Sectionals, meaning both will be competing at Regionals." Awkward.
" Karofsky, abruptly faced with having to publicly dance with a guy in the traditional dance between King and Queen, cannot do it; rejecting Kurt's suggestion that he come out then and there, he instead leaves Kurt alone on the dance floor, and Kurt dances with Blaine instead." Awkward.
"When the glee club arrives for Nationals in "New York", Kurt and Rachel sneak into the Gershwin Theatre where Wicked is playing; from the stage, they sing a song from that musical, "For Good"." Awkward.
To describe someone as "out" is colloquial and un-encyclopedic. Use "openly gay" instead. I'm also not sure if saying that Kurt "comes out" is formal. I'd prefer something like "Kurt openly acknowledges his homosexuality" or "Kurt reveals that he is gay" or something similar. But it may be personal taste.
Overall body is good, but it still needs a copyedit. And please, don't only fix the few examples I gave and say "done". Orane (talk) 08:08, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We've addressed the specific places you mentioned, and several other spots in the article as well. We also looked for colloquialisms, and changed those we thought might be problematic. Thank you for pointing these out to us; we hope you find the article improved. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:00, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Saw some of your changes. Seemed good. I'll strike my oppose for now, but won't support until I get the chance to read it over in full. Also made a couple tweaks to the intro. I'll be away tomorrow, but will read fully in a day or two. Orane (talk) 03:27, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! We're looking forward to further comments, suggestions, and corrections. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - link check. No broken external links (OK), 1 DAB-link to "Academy of Arts and Sciences" (needs disambig). ~~Earwig's tool shows no results (OK, a deeper source check was not done however)~~. GermanJoe (talk) 06:45, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed: "Academy of Arts and Sciences" is now "National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences" in those two references. Thank you! BlueMoonset (talk) 07:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: As far as I can ascertain, the sources seem reliable. A few format issues:-

Consistency required in adding publisher details to newspaper/journal titles. Compare refs 1 and 2

Fixed this by adding the publisher of Starry Constellation Magazine, Lisa Steinberg.

Sorry, I thought that Starry Constellation Magazine was a print journal. Lisa Steinberg is the editor, not the publisher of this website. I suggest you restore the ref to how it was before. However, perhaps you would comment on why you consider this to be reliable? Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I looked for guidance on interview reliability, but couldn't find anything useful. I hope the following about this particular publication is germane:

They have conducted two dozen interviews with Glee cast members over a two-year period; the Colfer interview cited was one of the first five conducted, and the show has continued making their actors available to the website for interviews. (The list of interviews and podcasts, with links, is here.)
Six of these interviews have accompanying podcasts with the actual recording of the actors' voices from the interview; a couple of one-minute spot checks showed the print transcriptions to be accurate. (The podcasts started later, after the Colfer interview.)

I've removed the publisher field from the reference, and I hope the source will be considered reliable. If there's any additional information you need, please let me know. (HorrorFan121 has had spotting internet connectivity lately, so I'm responding to this item instead of him.) BlueMoonset (talk) 16:24, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another consistency point is parentheses around publisher details. For example, compare ref 2 with ref 48. Check for others.

These are different solely because one is a cite web template and the other is a cite news template. I was told to use both formats in the last FAC discussion.

OK, no problem Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you clarify the source that is being referenced in ref 17?

1. 17-24 are episode sources from Glee. Not sure if that's allowed here, but I've seen that format used many times when citing storylines for fictional characters.

Can you indicate a case where this format has been accepted on a featured article? It's not really the format that concerns me as much as the practicability of verification. If, say, DVDs existed for these episodes, one could cite to the DVDs. Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would it make sense to retain those individual episode citations, as long as they're paired with a DVD citation? The DVD does exist; the citation is: "Glee: The Complete First Season (DVD). 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment. September 13, 2010.". If you just cite the DVD, you lose the episode being referenced, but with both verification should be quite practicable. (I'll try to find some featured article television shows to see if the cite episode template has been used there.) BlueMoonset (talk) 05:55, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Later: I just found the Martin Keamy article, which is an FA of a character from the Lost television series, and while it doesn't use the "cite episode" template, it lists several Lost episodes as references in a virtually identical format, e.g., "Lindelof, Damon (writer) & Cuse, Carlton (writer) & Bender, Jack (director), "The Constant". Lost, ABC. Episode 5, season 4. Aired on February 28, 2008." BlueMoonset (talk) 06:19, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecking: I am a little concerned that some of the references do not seem to support the statements cited to them. A couple of examples:-

Ref 25 seems to cover a lot of information which I can't find in the source article. For example, the article does not mention John Mellencamp, Brittany Pierce, Burt, Carole, Karofsky or Azimio. So I wonder what info it is actually supporting.

I believe this is fixed now.

Ref 32 apparently supports the statement: "To Kurt's disappointment, the Warblers lose to New Directions at the Regionals competition. He transfers back to McKinley in "Born This Way" after Karofsky assures Kurt that he regrets the earlier threats, and that the anti-bullying club he had recently started with glee club member Santana Lopez (Naya Rivera) would help keep Kurt safe at school."[32] But I find the source does not mention New Directions or the Regionals competition, and otherwise bears little relation to the cited sentence.

That was a mistake by myself. Ref 8 has no relation to that line, but the new one cites it.

Perhaps you would comment on these. Brianboulton (talk) 21:31, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so I just fixed most of the things you mentioned. What do you think of the changes? I would also like to know about your opinion on using episode citations, and whether or not that needs to be swapped. HorrorFan121 (talk) 07:29, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have checked a few more citations against sources, and found a couple more instances where the text seems at odds with the source:-

Article: "Instead, Kurt's boyfriend became another new character, Blaine Anderson, a member of the rival show choir group the Dalton Academy Warblers, who initially is a mentor for Kurt." The source says: "But will his character become a romantic interest for Kurt (Chris Colfer)? A "Glee" source told Entertainment Weekly that Blaine and Kurt will remain strictly platonic, but that things could change as the season progresses". That in my view seems to be saying something quite different.

Agreed. I think that reference (Derschowitz) should be removed entirely. I believe the next reference after that (Goldberg) covers the matter adequately. If you feel we should repeat that next one in the earlier place, we can. Incidentally, I think both of the references after an earlier sentence in that paragraph, "His original intention was to have Sam Evans, a new member of the glee club, be Kurt's love interest.", should be removed as well (Berk and then Malkin). That information is covered by the Overstreet reference at the end of the following sentence (RadarOnline). Once they're removed, we can repeat the Overstreet reference there if necessary, though the same ref two sentences in a row seems like overkill. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:55, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Later: The Derschowitz reference has been removed. After Orane made edits to the earlier sentence on Sam Evans that I mentioned above, I also removed the Berk and Malkin references, because they were clearly no longer germane. Based on my reading of Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(footnotes), it seemed to be okay to only list each remaining reference once immediately after the two sentences in a row that it covered, rather than after each of the sentences. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Article: "Leah Anthony Libresco of the Huffington Post disapproved of Will treating Kurt's upset as the key problem, rather than the unchecked bullying provoking it, and found Blaine's advice "misleading and dangerous". She was angered by the suggestion that targeted children should be held responsible for confronting their attackers and putting themselves at risk of further injury." The words "She was angered" are your interpretation; the writer does not express anger. "She repudiate the suggestion...", perhaps.

The entire section on Libresco's comments has been rewritten, and the inappropriate characterization of anger has been removed. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:55, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please look at these. Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I hope I've addressed your concerns, and that my suggested reference deletions make sense. HorrorFan121 will be addressing any other outstanding issues (e.g., Starry Constellation Magazine). BlueMoonset (talk) 05:55, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just to let everyone know we are still pursuing the FAC. With Brianboulton away for about another week, the sourcing check is stalled. We have an offer from Dank to look over the prose, but not until the article has passed the sourcing check. Can anyone help jumpstart the process, or give any advice for keeping the FAC progressing? I'd really hate for it to be closed while the candidacy is still being worked on. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 04:21, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Captions that aren't complete sentences should not end with periods
FUR for infobox image should mention that the image is used in the main infobox. Also, "replaceable" field needs amending - the character is not a "work" in the traditional sense. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:01, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just tweaked the "replaceable" field on the image page. Does that look any better? I also removed the period from the image caption. HorrorFan121 (talk) 02:28, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We should note that the image that had been in the infobox was removed from Wikipedia. We have replaced it with one of the existing images from the article body, which necessitated a change in the infobox image caption. The image from the body, which had been in the Musical performances section, was replaced there by another image. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:21, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.