Talk:History of the Jews in 20th-century Poland

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: pages moved; see note below — æk^Talk 01:51, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

---

Jewish Polish history during the 20th century → History of the Jews in 20th-century Poland — The main article in this series or articles is correctly named: History of the Jews in Poland. However, our "sister" articles go by different titles (not as easy to spot in search), even though they contain the same core information (often word for word) expanded with additional sources and more background. See, related articles: History of the Jews in Russia and History of the Jews in the United States among others. The requested move proposal includes the below listed articles. See: usage of the proposed name.[1][2] Poeticbent talk 20:13, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

• Jewish Polish history during the 19th century → History of the Jews in 19th-century Poland
  • Jewish Polish history during the 18th century → History of the Jews in 18th-century Poland
• Jewish Polish history: Origins to 17th century → History of the Jews in Poland: Origins to 17th century

• Support Certainly makes sense. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 20:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support it certainly does make sense. Yossiea ^(talk) 22:54, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support. The nominator. -- Poeticbent talk 23:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support Makes sense. Shlomke (talk) 00:23, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
• Support, it makes sense. - Darwinek (talk) 21:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose The move should be to "History of Jews in Poland". The use of an article (i.e. 'the') is entirely inappropriate: the articles are about Polish Jews in general, not the entire group viewed as a collective whole.Varsovian (talk) 15:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I don't agree. There are dozens of articles about Jewish history in various countries, and they are all titled "History of the Jews in ...". — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:29, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
• The RM seems uncontroversial as presented. However, I agree with Varsovian that the is unnecessary verbiage. It seems to be the norm, though, so I suggest a discussion take place whose scope is all these articles. ÷seresin 09:46, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
• Note I moved the "Origins to 17th century" article to History of the Jews in pre-18th-century Poland for consistency. Anyone should feel free to change the name if they think that originally proposed was better. — æk^Talk 01:51, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

History of Jews in Poland and Jewish Polish history during the 1900s

Interwar period 1918–39 section contains almost the same biased text in both articles. Why? 80% of the text is about bad Poles. With all due respect to Jewish tragedies of that time there existed also the other side of the image. The text doesn't even mention the Yiddish language movie industry in Poland. The only names mentioned in the paragraph are Bruno Schulz, Julian Tuwim, Jan Brzechwa and Bolesław Leśmian. No businessman, scientist, religious leader, politician. According to Shevah Weiss the state of Israel was constructed by University of Warsaw graduates. Even if he exaggerates, the anti-Polish obsession of some Wikipedia editors reduces the Jews in Poland to irrational victims; destroys the remnants of their interwar culture. Xx236 13:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

"Polish Catholicism at this time taught that the Jews were responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus"

Catholicism taught the same around the world, like several other Christian denominations.Xx236 (talk) 12:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

What is wrong with Joseph Marcus?

[3] Xx236 (talk) 12:58, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

"continued right up until the Nazi invasion"

Biased summary of biased source. Xx236 (talk) 14:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Rising Anti-Semitism dominates the article

The Rising Anti-Semitism section is longer than the "Jewish and Polish culture" one. An obsession.Xx236 (talk) 09:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Jews were often not identified as Polish nationals

"Jews were often not identified as Polish nationals" and many of them didn't identify themselves as Polish nationals.Xx236 (talk) 10:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

'Narodowość' does not always translate as the English word 'nationality'. If Polish Jews were not Polish nationality, what nationality were they?

Let me put it another way: is Catholic a nationality? Hindu? Muslim? Mormon? Moonie? If they are not, why is Jewish a nationality?Varsovian (talk) 12:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Let's start with article, which is more important than my comments. What about "Jews were often not identified as Polish naate tionals"? By whom? The Polish state taxed or drafted them.

Let me put it another way: Catholic is a nationality in Northern Ireland.Xx236 (talk) 13:02, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

No, 'Catholic' is not a nationality in Northern Ireland. People in Northern Ireland are either British or Irish. The fact that you think that Catholic is a nationality in Northern Ireland may well show why you're apparently having problems with the idea that Jews could be Polish.Varsovian (talk) 13:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Do I have a problem or rather the people in NI, who kill other people? A specific form of belonging to one nation.Xx236 (talk) 14:14, 18 January 2010 (UTC) "Northern Ireland comprises a patchwork of communities whose national loyalties are represented in some areas by flags" (Northern Ireland).Xx236 (talk) 14:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

And the flags which are the Flag of Ireland and the Flag of the United Kingdom (along with the Ulster Banner). Nations, not religions. You'll note that there is no such thing as the Catholic flag.Varsovian (talk) 17:47, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Jews are often considered a nation (or race or ethnic group) as well as adherents to a religion, in a way that followers of other religions are not. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

We still, after 10 months, have POV "Jews were often not identified as Polish nationals" - the other half of the truth is "Many of them didnn't identify themselves as Polish nationals".Xx236 (talk) 11:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Ghetto Litzmannstadt

The article doesn't inform about Ghetto Litzmannstadt, very big and different than the Warsaw one, eg. about Mordechai Chaim Rumkowski activities.Xx236 (talk) 10:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

cut in half the number of Jews in Polish universities into the late 1930s

Which means ...% of all students? BTW quite many Jews studied abroad, they were able to afford it.Xx236 (talk) 10:46, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The Routledge atlas of the Holocaust

An example of Western academic way of writing. From The Routledge atlas of the Holocaust, p. 21, Map 12 by Martin Gilbert, Jews killed throughout Poland 1935-1937, big 79. No number of Polish victims. The text under the map: the murder of three Jews (two not three and nothing about the murdered Pole). Xx236 (talk) 13:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Jerzy Borejsza attracted many talented writers

Attracted to what? Not to writing but to writing of Communist propaganda.Xx236 (talk) 13:27, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Polish Jews in the Soviet Union

I have created Polish Jews in the Soviet Union 1941-1945/1956 section, please help. Some informations are already in other parts of the article, I don't move them myself.Xx236 (talk) 07:56, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

1,600 Jews (Jan T. Gross)

There are no proves of the 1600 story. I bet the number comes from a memorial plate and/or low quality GKBZH texts.Xx236 (talk) 08:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

pl:Historia Żydów w Polsce

This article contains sentences probably translated from Historia Żydów w Polsce. Is this written somewhere?Xx236 (talk) 09:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

No lead section

The former "lead section" informed of a Polish independence movement, so I have named the section. The article doesn't have a lead.Xx236 (talk) 12:29, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

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The Holocaust in German-occupied Poland

This revert reinstated "The Holocaust in German-occupied Poland" as a section title. Beyond the POV issues in this title (See Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2019/July#Requested move 5 June 2019) - this is a clear violation of MOS:NOBACKREF - this article is already about "Jews in 20th century Poland". Per NOBACKREF - we don't repeat the subject of the article (in Poland) throughout section titles in the article - this is redundant. Icewhiz (talk) 09:50, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:02, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

February 2023

Phone book of Sanok, 1936.

@Synotia: what is the purpose of adding the phone book? M.Bitton (talk) 17:57, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I think I get where Synotia is coming from (indicating the prevalence of Jewish people in pre-Holocaust Sanok) but I question whether its due without any mention of Sanok in the text. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:19, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure an image of a phonebook that lists Jewish names really conveys anything useful to the reader about the subject. Zaathras (talk) 18:43, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Sanok was a typical Polish town with a large Jewish population (around 1/3 it seems), who were as usual overrepresented in qualified professions (doctors, dentists, etc). The image illustrates this.

Sure, the article is not about Sanok, but the image is a way to give a vitrine into the socio-economic situation of Jews in a typical Polish town at the time. Such a large amount of names such as Izrael, Efroim, etc would feel alien to a Polish reader born in the 21st century, for whom Jews might feel as near-mythological figures, as if it's a completely different place and not the ethnostate it is now. Where did these Jewish people all go?

Who were these individuals, what became of their families? What was their life like? Etc etc and all these questions popped up in my mind when I stumbled upon this image. Synotia (moan) 19:46, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

The relevance of the image aside, does it answer any of those questions? M.Bitton (talk) 20:00, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're asking me? Whether I can reverse engineer my way into who these folks were? I did a bit of that in my argument with GizzyCatBella, if you are interested in knowing more.

The exhaustiveness of the internet never fails to surprise me. Synotia (moan) 20:09, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm asking a question because I don't understand what you're trying to achieve. I could have taken the easy way and cited the WP:IMGCONTENT and the WP:OR policies. M.Bitton (talk) 20:15, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

If you had cited them, I'd have told you I don't see how exactly it violates either, tbf. But this is ultimately not that terribly important you know, it was just GizzyCatBella taking the way of denying their Jewishness that snapped something in me. Synotia (moan) 20:21, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

@Synotia Read WP:NPA (referring to the above and this - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:26, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I like the picture, and think it serves an illustrative purpose. Don't believe it's WP:OR, anymore than saying Leboucher is a French name, or that Biedermann is a German name, or that Yang is (the transcription of) a Chinese name (the sky's looking pretty blue where I'm at). WP:OR is about stuff for which no reliable, published source exists, which I'm skeptical of in this case. But per HEB it would be nicer if a source was provided for Sanok was a typical Polish town with a large Jewish population (around 1/3 it seems), and if this was mentioned inline as part of a prose-style, cited list of cities with higher Jewish populations. Could fit in a sentence. DFlhb (talk) 20:52, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

But what purpose do you think it illustrates? If we're discussing how the pre-war Jewish population of Poland was decimated, I'm not sure a pre-war list of Jewish professionals' phone numbers in one city is conveying that clearly to the reader. Zaathras (talk) 21:39, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

It illustrates the disproportionate concentration of Jews in [some] communities, i.e., that they weren't evenly spread out across the country, and illustrates Jewish per capita income among the working Jews was more than 40% higher in 1929 than that of Polish non-Jews. It's hard to think of any other types of images that could illustrate those points, or indeed any of that section, except for a graph of GDP per capita or a population density map, which we don't have. The articles has few illustrations as is. DFlhb (talk) 00:06, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

If one has to go to these lengths to explain it, then the image is not very useful to the reader. Not ever picture is worth a thousand words. Zaathras (talk) 01:21, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

these lengths are already in the section we're discussing, to be clear. DFlhb (talk) 01:45, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Let's look at the rest of that passage in context:

More than 75% of them lived in urban areas. There was, therefore, a disproportionate concentration of Jews in those communities who were disproportionately women, children and elderly. Poland was an underdeveloped country that strugglined with the remnants of devastating economic exploitation by the partitioners and their ensuing trade embargos (see also German–Polish customs war). For many years, there was widespread poverty among all citizens regardless of ethnicity but especially among the unemployed Jews for whom the help from the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee was slow in coming. Plans for their retraining, considered by the committee in 1929, were out of touch with the depth of the Polish depression. The average standard of living of Polish Jews was among the worst among major Jewish communities in the world. The mostly-nonexistent new job opportunities before Poland's industrialization of the mid-1930s were blamed on anti-Semitism, but Jewish per capita income among the working Jews was more than 40% higher in 1929 than that of Polish non-Jews. The impoverished families relied on local Jewish charity, which had reached universally unprecedented proportions in 1929, providing services such as religion, education, health and other services to the amount of 200 million zlotys a year.

I don't think an emphasis on "look at all the Jewish names for the lawyers and the doctors" does the reader any benefit. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 05:11, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

If DFIhb used a thousand words, then I don't know what this is ;)

I'll add one thing: Poland nowadays is an ethnostate (well, before the Ukraine war perhaps). The country had over 3 million Jews – gone. Many Germans as well - also gone. The few Jews who had remained Polonized their names after the war mostly. I can't really think of other recent example, besides perhaps Yugoslavia, where the demographic change is so visible even in something as mundane as an old phone book. I'm pretty sure that most GenZ Poles have never met a Jew in their life, it must feel quite weird for them to see this image. Synotia (moan) 09:03, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Ok, but the purpose of images in articles is to illustrate and give due emphasis to the key points of the article, not to deliver bespoke culture shocks (I'd also cast doubt on the extent to which a young Pole would necessarily find such an image weird, but that's neither here nor there). I think the level of interpretation needed to make sense of the image's relevance to begin with crosses well into WP:OR territory, as does the argument regarding the degree to which phone books evince the history of Jewish displacement and genocide Poland to a degree greater than other locations (and on top of that, the assertion that the few Jews who had remained Polonized their names after the war mostly actually undermines your general argument that names in a phone book are particularly useful evidence of demographic change). These would potentially be good questions to answer in a research paper, but that's not a job for Wikipedia until after the paper has been published. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:35, 1 March 2023 (UTC)