Talk:Innisfallen

Proposed move (2009)

Since "Innis" means "island", surely "Innisfallen Island" is the kind of half-educated English version of a name that we find also in "Lake Windermere". I suggest moving this simply to Innisfallen, or if that is required for a disambig, then to Innisfallen (Island). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doric Loon (talk • contribs) 09:09, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

@Doric Loon: You may wish to examine the move proposal below from 2021. -- 67.70.27.105 (talk) 12:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress (2021)

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Innisfallen (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposed move (2021)

The above reshuffle is now complete and gives the related articles a better location, but this article was left where it was. Can I propose a move Innisfallen Island > Innisfallen Abbey. There are two reasons for this. First, the term "Innesfallen Island" is redundant, as I pointed out further up this talk page ("innis" already means "island"), and although such redundancies occasionally do find their way into common usage, I can find no evidence that this is such a case. The maps just say "Innisfallen" and the few Google hits that you can get for "Innisfallen Island" look like they might well be influenced from an erroneous title here on Wikipedia. Really, an article on the island should be at Innisfallen, but since it has been decided to make that a disambig page (sensibly enough), we would need at least a move to Innisfallen (island). But secondly, this article actually says almost nothing about the island. It is a tiny island on a lake in the West of Ireland which has no notability apart from the presence of a very important abbey, and so, logically enough, this article is mainly about the abbey. So I propose making that the title, and putting a sentence about the abbey at the beginning of the article head, then mentioning the island and its etymology only secondarily as context. Hopefully that will inspire an expansion of the article, since the abbey deserves a far fuller coverage. --Doric Loon (talk) 09:47, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

If you want to propose this formally, you'd need to follow the WP:RM process.

ie. fill in {{subst:requested move|destination-requested|reason-for-request}} as a new section without a header (it generates one by itself)

-- 67.70.27.180 (talk) 08:47, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

OK, Thanks! --Doric Loon (talk) 09:22, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 24 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved island to Innisfallen as the apparent primary topic, and Innisfallen->Innisfallen (disambiguation). See also P.S. below. No such user (talk) 13:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

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Innisfallen Island → Innisfallen Abbey – The current title is erroneous, because the Island is called "Innisfallen", not "Innisfallen Island". But apart from that, the island itself is not notable. The article is already mainly about the abbey, and that part needs to be expanded, as the abbey is very important. More details in the discussions above. Doric Loon (talk) 09:22, 24 May 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. BD2412 T 03:07, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

• Strong oppose: Issues are highlighting from discussion closed by buildhe at Talk:Innisfallen. In the end there is a problem with the current title as it means: 'Faithlinn's island' island which has island twice. What especially needed to be done is to add appropriate Rshell cats and categories to the redirect and I've done that This is a case of a merged article that is reasonable but which causes a right mess over at Wikidata. Djm-leighpark (talk) 11:28, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

@Djm-leighpark: Can you explain that? You seem to agree with the first reason I gave for the move, and I can't make out what you are saying about the second, so I'm not quite sure what you mean. Sorry if I'm being dense. --Doric Loon (talk) 13:20, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

The guts of the problem in general we have 3 topics, The island, the annuls, and the abbey, related but dimensionally different, are being kludged into two articles: and until we are clear about the best way forward on that an RM is inappropriate. I have enough issues due to being clattered from incorrectly associated with Ross in county Galway being associate with a Ross down south, let alone the Ross Island next to Innisfallen and sorting out cats hereabouts earlier today. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 15:07, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

@Djm-leighpark: Thanks for clarifying. (Ross just means "headland", so there are a lot more of them than you mention!) I would leave the annals out of this at the moment - that is an important text that certainly deserves its own article, and it is already at the only sensible location. --Doric Loon (talk) 17:13, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

• Move to Innisfallen (island). Per discussion in the previous RM. The abbey, as the article reads today, is not the focus; if it is notable enough, a new article at Innisfallen Abbey can be created. 162 etc. (talk) 15:16, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose this is about the island as a whole but per above this could be moved to Innisfallen (island) if WP:NATURAL isn't satisfied, see Talk:Handa Island and the abbey could be split from here instead. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:50, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
• As the original proposer, can I suggest we proceed to a move? There seems to be a consensus that we need one, because nobody here has yet argued for keeping the article where it is. (Djm-leighpark said oppose, but not because he likes the status quo.) So the choice is: move to Innisfallen Abbey since the island itself is not notable, or move to Innisfallen (island) and probably then move the information about the abbey out to a separate Innisfallen Abbey at a later stage. I'm not sure it matters which one we choose, because we'll probably end up with both articles anyway.--Doric Loon (talk) 12:23, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

It can be unwise unwise to interpret what I want. I want a move to Innsifallen but I'll accept Innisfallen (island) as better than the current name. From a technical point of view we don't need a redirect if someone other than me is going to clean up quickly post move. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 16:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Djm-leighpark: Cool! A move to Innisfallen is also my first preference, but I thought it was off the table because of the previous discussion. If we move the disambig back to where it was before (Innisfallen (disambiguation) and move this into its place, I will be happy to do the post-move clean up. But I suspect that move will require administrator rights. --Doric Loon (talk) 17:37, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

To include the disambiguation page in the move request, would require a multimove request, such as which occurred at talk:Innisfallen (formerly talk:Innisfallen (disambiguation)) earlier in May 2021. But moving pages back and forth from the same page names typically needs a month or three in between to not just move and move back again and again with over rapidity -- 67.70.27.180 (talk) 03:47, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

You can't move this page to Innisfallen, we just had that discussion at Talk:Innisfallen#Requested move 14 May 2021. Consensus agreed that there is no primary topic. 162 etc. (talk) 03:49, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

And there may be very good reasons why that discussion may need to be reviewed! Obviously it would need a formal proposal. That move was not the focus of that discussion which was mainly about moving the ships. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 06:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. The current title works fine as a WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION. Rreagan007 (talk) 08:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Would also support a move to the base name. Distinguishing the island from the abbey is somewhat artificial. Srnec (talk) 02:00, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
• Move to Innisfallen. The island and its abbey are the primary topic both by pageviews and by long-term significance. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:57, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

P.S. I reviewed the recent RM at Talk:Innisfallen (disambiguation)#Requested move 14 May 2021. Originally, the base title was taken by the ship, and the discussion revolved about moving it away and replacing it with the dab page. However, the idea that the island/abbey is the original and the primary topic was not explored much. I believe that the evidence demonstrated here clearly suggests that to be the case, and I'm moving the island to the base title accordingly. No such user (talk) 13:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)