Talk:History of LGBT characters in animation

Improving the article

Like I did with other notices on past pages, I think it is better to have a discuss here than have some editor, who has never edited this page before today (and has not edited any pages since 2018!) slap on some notice on the page. I understand that I should assume good faith, but I think it would more productive to have a discussion here. @User:Ufolaulu, you declared that "this article (and the nested articles it links to) are very obviously written by a single author very invested in the material, and frequently only refers to subjects/content they are personally interested in." I can admit, yes, it is primarily written by me, and yes, it refers to "subjects/content they are personally interested in." But what's wrong with that? I don't see an issue with that to be honest. I focus on LGBTQ pages. So what? I'm not really sure how that comment is supposed to help me or any other people editing this page. So, please, if you care enough about this page, offer some ways that me (and other editors) can improve the page. Otherwise, your comment and tag on the page are utterly worthless. --Historyday01 (talk) 18:10, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

@User:Historyday01 No, I'm not a frequent editor, but I am a frequent reader and this was a series of articles that I was interested in and subsequently surprised by the quality. (I'm gay, don't try to make out that this is some homophobic thing.) What I mean by "content [the editor] is personally interested in," is that the same animated series are referenced multiple times in multiple articles/headings: Steven Universe and She-Ra are focused on in in-depth in the separate articles on the 2010s and 2020s, for example, while other shows that GLAAD lists are only mentioned once in passing. It's obvious which shows you like writing about, which would be fine if this weren't supposed to be an article about LGBTQ animated characters in general and not just from Cartoon Network series. (The History page for 2010s almost exclusively focuses on Steven Universe and She-Ra.) I also find it confusing that there are at least two or three pages for each decade, all of which contain a lot of overlapping information. At the very least, the articles need to at least get another pass of editing for tone/writing style, as they are more story- or essay-like than other articles on Wikipedia (hence my note.) Apologies if this was taken personally, but these articles are supposed to be references, so it's frustrating when they read more like fanpages. Ufolaulu (talk) 23:36, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

You are right that Steven Universe and She-Ra are focused on in "in-depth" but that's because there are more information on those shows than the other shows. It is as simple as that. If someone wanted to expand those other series, I'd be ok with that. I would not say that any of the pages are "fanpages," but have various sources. In terms of the pages for each decade, I tried to divide Western animation and anime series from each other. I see what you mean by the History of LGBTQ characters in animation: 2010s page, but that's mainly because information was moved off to other pages like Netflix and LGBTQ representation in animation, LGBTQ representation in animated web series, Cartoon Network and LGBTQ representation, and LGBTQ representation in adult animation earlier this year. But I'll go through them and see what I can do. --Historyday01 (talk) 23:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Well, @Ufolaulu, I did revise the History of LGBTQ characters in animation: 2010s to include some more shows. I've been thinking about it for a while, but I'll probably just delete it ultimately or merge it, or something. I kinda hate those history pages and hate maintaining them, but since no one else is going to it, I guess its up to me, for some reason. But, I'll try to go through them and make them better. Historyday01 (talk) 00:56, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The whole thing is one big clusterfuck to be honest and I don't know what to do about it, so any suggestions would be welcome. Historyday01 (talk) 02:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

@Ufolaulu, I made some changes to this page and moved all the anime content, in a revised form, to the History of LGBT anime page. What do you think? Historyday01 (talk) 14:43, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 17 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to History of LGBT characters in animation. Also closed all the other RMs and moved to follow the same naming pattern. (non-admin closure) Vpab15 (talk) 21:26, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

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History of LGBT characters in animated series → History of LGBT animation – Like the proposed changes to the name of the History of LGBT characters in animation: 2020s, History of LGBT characters in animation: 2010s, History of LGBT characters in animation: 2000s, and History of LGBT characters in animated series: 1990s pages, this new name could broaden the page's focus, allowing it to cover animated films and animated series on one page, rather than just sticking to animated series. Rather than doing this manually, I wanted to have a discussion about this proposed name. Comments are welcome! Historyday01 (talk) 16:15, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. The proposed title implies animation by LGBT people rather than about LGBT people, which is actually narrowing the focus. History of LGBT characters in animation would probably be okay. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:17, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Ok, that's fair. I just think the current title is a bit clunky. Historyday01 (talk) 16:15, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Glad to see that the page is getting some attention on here! I got started on here as an editor thanks to a similar assignment. --Historyday01 (talk) 19:48, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Adding a "Fictional animals" section to the article

As you may or may not know, one of the proposals in the AfD for the Animals in LGBT culture section is to add a section about "fictional animals" to this page. The section currently on the Animals in LGBT culture article reads as follows:

Fictional LGBT animals include Mr. Ratburn, an anthropomorphic rat who wed his partner Patrick in the 22nd season of the animated series Arthur.

Ursula, the octopus-inspired sea creature from The Little Mermaid, was inspired by Divine, an American actor, singer and drag queen. In 2019, Reiss Smith of PinkNews suggested drag performers Ginger Minj, Nina West, Peaches Christ, and Peppermint, as well as queer actor Tituss Burgess, could play Ursula in the Disney's upcoming remake of The Little Mermaid.

Sean Griffin, author or Tinker Belles and Evil Queens: The Walt Disney Company from the Inside Out, said Disney's cartoon Ferdinand the Bull (1939) is "not necessarily gay, but it's definitely queer". The short film depicts a "sleepy eyed bull who doesn't conform to expectations of masculinity". Nico Lang of Harper's Bazaar said Disney's 1941 film The Reluctant Dragon "is extremely queer, even if it's not necessarily gay". He also noted the inclusion of a gay couple (two male antelopes) in Zootopia. Lang wrote, "in 1937, a group of lesbians in Chicago threw a series of bashes known as 'Mickey Mouse's parties.' These gatherings for like-minded ladies were a reference to the fact that 'Mickey Mouse' was a common term at the time for gay men", according to Griffin.

I believe something about Ursula could also be added, including a Washington Post piece noting that LGBTQ animators who worked on Ursula, and what they were influenced by, which includes this quote, which can be cut down as needed:

Disney also relied on LGBTQ communities to revamp its animated films. Few creators were more central to Disney’s renewed vibrancy than Howard Ashman, an openly gay lyricist and director who the company recruited away from Broadway in 1986. Working with composer Alan Menken, Ashman provided the new musical template for Disney animation, crafting “The Little Mermaid,” “Beauty and the Beast” and “Aladdin,” all of which went on to become Broadway musicals. With “I want” songs that expressed the princess protagonists’ desires, and with all-out showstoppers, Ashman brought theatrical know-how — and a good dose of camp — to Disney’s animated films. In “The Little Mermaid,” Ashman and the animators honored gay culture by taking inspiration from a range of gay icons, including Divine, Bea Arthur and Joan Collins, to bring to life the brassy and voluptuous sea witch, Ursula. Even today, Ursula’s “Poor Unfortunate Souls” solo — an Ashman and Menken original — is a staple for drag performers around the world...Animator Andreas Deja supervised animation for the characters of Gaston in “Beauty and the Beast,” Jafar in “Aladdin” and Scar in “The Lion King.” Scholars and fans alike have often noted the camp value in these characters. As Sean Griffin observes in his landmark study of Disney and the gay community, “Fantasy often walks hand in hand with camp, one of the cornerstones of gay culture.”...Indeed, queerness can be found throughout the Disney canon. While Disney promoted LeFou as its first “openly gay” character in the 2017 live-action remake of “Beauty and the Beast,” audiences have read a range of Disney characters as queer for decades either in their resistance to heterosexual romance, their gender nonconforming performances or their campiness.

Another Believer also shared articles from Gay Times, Out Magazine, and Billboard on this topic. Perhaps the paragraphs in the "Up to the 1990s" section beginning with "In 2010, animation and popular culture scholar", "One scholar, Jo Johnson" and "Ursula the Sea Witch in the 1989 Disney film" could be moved down to that section as well. Thoughts?

This discussion is even more relevant with the AfD for the Animals in LGBT culture coming to a close. I forgot to sign the above, but I posted it on May 10. Historyday01 (talk) 17:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Page name change/purpose?

Hello all! I was thinking of changing the name of this page to LGBT themes in Western animation, in line with the LGBT themes in anime and manga page. I've grown to personally detest this title, and feel that the title is overly clunky at the present. If the page was changed to that name, it could be structured similar to the aforementioned page for anime and manga. Additionally, my current plan is to merge History of LGBT characters in animation: 1990s, History of LGBT characters in animation: 2000s, History of LGBT characters in animation: 2010s, and History of LGBT characters in animation: 2020s into this page, as those pages have grown very bulky. In sum, I think this page (and all the related pages I just mentioned) needs a big overhaul, as it is an important subject, but it isn't done right, which is partially my fault, as the main author of the page. Obviously, I'm not going to do move the page, or anything (apart from some editing of style, sourcing, and text, to improve the page), or merge any of those other pages into this one, without hearing from some of you, but I thought I'd at least start the discussion.

@User:Necrothesp, @User:Ufolaulu, @User:Retrosunshine2006, @User:PanagiotisZois, @User:CrypticalFiery, @User:BestDaysofMusic, @User:Another Believer, and other related users, this discussion may be interest. Historyday01 (talk) 22:01, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I think the move and the merge makes sense. The focus on themes rather than characters seems more in line with the available sources, and would suggest an article that describes the evolution of the depiction of LGBT themes, rather than simply a roster of characters.--Trystan (talk) 01:04, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I can agree. I would say the page is current bit of a mix between a focus on themes and a roster list of characters, but focusing on themes rather than characters is better, as the page won't feel like as much like the Lists of animated series with LGBT characters pages. Historyday01 (talk) 02:41, 3 March 2023 (UTC)