Talk:Henrique de Bragança

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Dubious

Infante is a title given to the child of a Sovereign, or a male-line grandchild of a Sovereign. Neither applies in this case. DrKay (talk) 20:30, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

And a new creation of an old ducal title is granted by a king, which also hasn't happened, that's the whole point of royal pretenders and titles in pretence. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 00:38, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

And he's not called Miguel. DrKay (talk) 09:53, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 22 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved  — Amakuru (talk) 11:37, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

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Infante Henrique, Duke of Coimbra → Henrique de Bragança – Per common name. Both of the accessible sources call him "Henrique de Bragança", and this is the commonest name for him in google searches (e.g. [1]). There are no reliable sources at all for "Infante Henrique, Duke of Coimbra". The only reliable sources for "Infante Henrique" or "duke of Coimbra" in Google searches all refer to other people. DrKay (talk) 09:52, 22 January 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. —Nnadigoodluck███ 10:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)—Relisting. Jerm (talk) 18:34, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Against "Henrique de Bragança", but in favor of "Henrique de Bragança, Duke of Coimbra". Cristiano Tomás (talk) 10:01, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Comment @DrKay: -- would the suggestion from User:Cristiano Tomás be acceptable? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 13:49, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

The only google hits I get for that name in English are wikipedia, facebook, theroyalforums, blogspot and geneall.net. It would also appear to be unnecessary disambiguation. However, there are a few Portuguese news sites using "Henrique de Bragança, duque de Coimbra" (which is a direct translation) so it is preferable to the current article title. DrKay (talk) 13:56, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support as proposed. The title is unnecessary disambiguation, and is found in the first line of the article and the infobox. -2pou (talk) 23:25, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support as proposed, following 2pou's reasoning. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 15:09, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 05 February 2024

Henrique de Bragança → Henrique João, Duke of Coimbra – as per his brother and father pages, Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza and Duarte Nuno, Duke of Braganza, I propose that for sake of coherence with this other pages and the portuguese press we make the move.[2][3] [4] [5] GrandDukeMarcelo (talk) 21:16, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Agree as per: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#Hypothetical, dissolved and defunct titles, don't use the titles unless the majority of reliable sources use, which @GrandDukeMarcelo has provided. Diogo Costa (talk) 21:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Support without "João" per the above and per notability of the title and its relevance to WP:Commonname and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#Hypothetical, dissolved and defunct titles. But João is not necessary - Nuno and Pio are used to disambiguate the two Duartes; there is no need here as there is no other Henrique to disambiguate from. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 20:22, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Firstly I want to point out you opened this move request incorrectly and as a result this topic isn't linked on the article or the move discussions listings properly. The instructions are here, hopefully you can amend it.

Other relatives pages using defunct titles is not a basis for having a title on this page. The default position is not to use defunct titles unless there is strong WP:COMMONNAME reasons to do so. His father was at least alive when Portugal was still a monarchy so his page has the title due to the policy of keeping "highest title held during lifetime" but Henrique could never have had the title Duke of Braganza as the monarchy was abolished before his birth. Also to my understanding the "Duke of Braganza" is a title for the heir to the throne and given that Duarte Pio is his older brother how would Henrique be the first in line heir anyway?

If you check the talk page for Duarte Pio the usage of the title for that page is also controversial.

All the sources are his death notice and in Portuguese and have very little to say about Henrique. I'd question the need for an article in the first place. D1551D3N7 (talk) 22:33, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Wikipedia:BEFORE Topic C2: This page was recently created. Therefore, request to give more time to update page before even considering deletion and to gather more references, other than the death ones.

The initial request was made to include and consider "Duke of Coimbra", as clearly stated in my original request, easily readable above. Therefore, I reiterate that a request was not made linking Henrique to the title of "Duke of Braganza", as you state in your argument, but to "Duke of Coimbra". Furthermore, because there was no request or link this move to "Duke of Braganza", but instead to "Duke of Coimbra", there was implicit that Henrique was not the first in line. Sources explain clearly that the title of "Duke of Braganza" is associated to the direct pretender to the throne. So, not clear how the association was made for these two titles and inheritance to begin with, other than the family connection. GrandDukeMarcelo (talk) 22:49, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

This page was created in 2006 and I think it is highly unlikely that Henrique is going to become any more notable in the future given he is deceased. D1551D3N7 (talk) 23:40, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Even when someone is deceased, new books, info, etc can come out on said person's life, thus contributing to the improvement of the page. There are thousands of pages of deceased people. Are you suggesting that once someone is dead to not continue updating? Please, clarify. Argument not clear. GrandDukeMarcelo (talk) 23:50, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

What are you suggesting? That something Henrique did that was notable would become public posthumously? That we should keep the page just in case something comes out? What I'm saying is Henrique is already not notable and I would find it hard to believe he would somehow become more notable in the future. Sure its _possible_ (like Van Gogh's works becoming more well known after his death or the Zodiac Killer becoming known by his real name after death) but not likely. D1551D3N7 (talk) 00:09, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Not likely, but also likely.

As a male line descendant of the Miguelist Branch and great grandson of a portuguese Monarch, Henrique is notable enough to have his own page. GrandDukeMarcelo (talk) 13:39, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 6 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. By count of replies, we are almost even at 3 for and 4 against. There are conflicting conventions/policies at play including WP:COMMONNAME & WP:NCROY that will need to be reconciled if this is to be attempted again in the future. (closed by non-admin page mover) ASUKITE 15:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

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Henrique de Bragança → Henrique, Duke of Coimbra – As per his brother and father pages, Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza and Duarte Nuno, Duke of Braganza, I propose that for sake of coherence with this other pages and the Portuguese media say "Henrique, Duke of Coimbra", see examples: [6]Expresso, [7]Observador, [8]Lux, [9]CMJornal GrandDukeMarcelo (talk) 23:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting.  ASUKITE 17:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BD2412 T 02:56, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per WP:NCROY, dissolved or defunct titles should not be used unless the majority of reliable sources do so - and that does not seem to be the case in English-language sources. In addition, there are other branches of the Bragança family with competing claims to these titles, so there's an WP:NPOV issue in that we should not "favour" any particular branch. As to the consistency argument, his relatives' pages ought to be moved to remove their titles of pretence for the same reasons. Rosbif73 (talk) 10:36, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

  The state of Portugal has recognised this branch as the legitimate one. It is also the widely accepted one by the public. GrandDukeMarcelo (talk) 13:40, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Support per nom and WP:Commonname, as the title is absolutely relevant in his common name. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 16:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per my comments above of 09:52, 22 January 2021 (UTC). DrKay (talk) 20:30, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Biography has been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 17:41, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Portugal has been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 17:41, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose – Per WP:COMMONNAME. The Bragança dynasty is a more accurate term than the royal titles themselves. Svartner (talk) 03:48, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

  How does this apply to the page title? GrandDukeMarcelo (talk) 22:16, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Just reiterating my comments from the other discussion that wasn't a proper move request. Per WP:NCROY, WP:NPOV. Other relatives pages using defunct titles is not a basis for having a title on this page. The default position is not to use defunct titles unless there is strong WP:COMMONNAME reasons to do so. His father was at least alive when Portugal was still a monarchy so his page has the title due to the policy of keeping "highest title held during lifetime". If you check the talk page for Duarte Pio the usage of the title for that page is also controversial. All the sources are his death notice in Portuguese and have very little to say about Henrique. I'd question the need for an article in the first place. Any talk about "descendant of Miguelist branch" who would have been in line is just WP:CRYSTALBALL and shouldn't be given any leeway.

D1551D3N7 (talk) 19:29, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting one more time to see if a consensus can be achieved. BD2412 T 02:56, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.