Talk:David Wilkerson

Bias tag

I think the Biography section in particular is from a very pro-Wilkerson point of view and isn't really encyclopedic as much as promotional. Needs better reliable sources. (ESkog)^(Talk) 19:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not at all a supporter of Christian Evangelical practices but the statement about Wilkerson's death besides being in poor taste is an opinion and not factual and frankly smacks of bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.39.74.211 (talk) 20:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. The unsupported statements have been removed. JustinTime55 (talk) 21:49, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Page references?

It appears to me that some of the predictions have been fudged, but it is difficult to confirm that since there are not many references to page numbers where the predictions were made. Geneven (talk) 15:24, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Tag discussion

The subject of this biographical entry is worthy of note to a wide audience for encyclopedic purposes. As an author, Wilkerson writes a nonprofit newsletter that has a readership in excess of 850,000 monthly subscribers. As an historical figure, he is known for founding an organization that was publicly cited by a U. S. president as an example of meritous charity work. For Wikipidia users interested in researching Wilkerson, the encyclopedic resource and biographical information therein do serve to provide relevant factual data.

All of the included data appear to conform to Wikipedia NPOV, and no statements of mere opinion are found in the entry as a whole. While the biography can strike one reader as being positive if he or she deems the individually stated facts to be positive attributes, by the same token their nature may impress other readers negatively. For example, the statements that the subject is a Christian, is an evangelist, or founded Teen Challenge, would not necessarily be viewed as positive or pro-Wilkerson by users who are opposed to Christianity, to evangelism, or to the political party on record as favoring Teen Challenge.

A reliable source that corroborates much of the data in the biography section is a detailed biography of Wilkerson that is accessible through one of the links listed the Related Websites section.

Projection70 04:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I changed at least some of the "Christianese" to more usual language, and the statements that he was moved by the Holy Spirit to do this or that, to statements that Wilkerson believed the H.S. moved him in those ways. This is also roughly how the Joseph Smith, Jr. article handles his angelic visions (or should if it hasn't been changed again). The rest of it seems to be fairly factual and neutrally stated to me; I think the tag can be removed. Any other discussion? Wesley 17:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Tag has been up for ten weeks, during which time article has been refined for improvement of NPOV. Bias tag removed as per wikimedia convention in official guidelines. Projection70 17:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Added "refimprove" tag. More inline citations should be provided for such a colourful biography. Ropata (talk) 04:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Scottsdale or Scottdale?

Although a biography at Pastor Wilkerson's website does say he pastored in "Scottsdale," I could find no such location in Pennsylvania. The only Scottsdale that I can think of is in Arizona, and I don't think he pastored any churches there. I'm guessing that "Scottsdale" is a typo, since there actually is a town of Scottdale, PA in the vicinity of Philipsburg, PA. I made the corresponding change to the article text, but if anybody knows for sure that the pastor actually did preach in "Scottsdale," by all means change it back, and be sure to wikify it to the proper location. Projection70 13:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the 'whole name' issue. Someone needs to go in there and do some serious editing. David Wilkerson did this, David Wilkerson did that... remember the word 'he'? It still exists... use it.

More on David Wilkerson

David Wilkerson has an additional prophecy that he gave in his "Vision," that the Iron Curtain would fall for a time and that it would later go back up (keep in mind it was given in 1973).

A little more detail should be given to Teen Challenge which Wilkerson started. It claims to have the highest success rate (80-85%) in helping people around the world that are addicted to drugs and alcohol. He has given control of Teen Challenge over to the Assembly of God, which he holds his credentials from.

Wilkerson has been known to be a bit eccentric, albeit he is respected in the Christian community at large, probably because of his no-nonsense approach to ministry and also because he was not afraid to go into the getto and slums of New York to help gangs and drug addicts.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Quintessential1 (talk • contribs) 01:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

What, no mention of the Mylon Lefevre incident? http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/1980s/ts870803.html David Wilkerson railed against Christian Rock music for years. I think this is worth noting in this article. His warning to Jimmy Swaggart before his fall and subsequent public humiliation deserves a mention (you can find a reference to this in the book 'David Wilkerson: A Final Warning' written by Nicky Cruz). Wilkerson held several Repentance Gatherings in the 80s. This should be mentioned as well. This article needs to be more detailed and updated. I don't have the time, but someone with references and good editing skills needs to work on this. Wilkerson has been a controversial and important figure, especially amongst Pentecostals and Charismatics, for the past four decades.98.16.107.157 (talk) 01:42, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Mt. Zion School of Ministry

Someone I know is entering this school as a student and I can find little about it on the net except for its own homepage and statements that it is affiliated with Wilkerson. Oh, and cultlike practices, too. If anyone has info on this place I think it would be appropriate to incorporate it here. 204.8.150.32 (talk) 17:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Photos?

Is any photos coming to Wikimedia Commons some day? I will add it to Finnish wikipedia article, thanks. Arto Alanenpää (talk) 14:13, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Failed Prophecies

This section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wilkerson#Failed_Prophecies has been deleted several times. This critical information is viable and sufficiently sourced. Please understand that deleting this information without a discussion and consensus is considered vandalism. Jadon (talk) 17:19, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

There is serious problems with the sources. A PDF library is not a source. http://www.pdflibrary.info/en/pdf/David+Wilkerson+False+Prophecies-1.html. This one (http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/david-wilkerson-prophecy.htm) looks like a personal blog. Until there is something more precise, the section should be moved to the talk page. Basileias (talk) 23:33, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

The use of a PDF library is a source to verify quotes. A manuscript of Wilkerson's sermons is exactly what they use as a source elsewhere (see citation #7), on the pro side of his claimed prophecies, so I don't see a problem with the PDF library on the con's side. Also, the other reference is not a blog site. I find it odd that you’d want to remove "failed prophecies" for not having references to your liking when almost the entire article is not referenced at all... isn't it better to have a poor reference than no references? Notice that nearly all the claimed prophecies above don’t have any citations, and the ones that do use an equivalent to my PDF library, why aren't you trying to delete all of these? I've only tried to add a little pro's and con's balance to Wilkerson's claim of being able to prophesied the future. If you delete my additions, it's only fair that all the other non-citied & poorly cited claims go as well.

I've moved the "Failed Prophecies" section here. It need review by other editors, and yes, other non-citied & poorly cited claims should be removed. Basileias (talk) 17:18, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, I disagree about 163.1.230.26 statement regarding the stock market prophecy. That’s a very defensive interpretation, and if it is so “clear” that this prophecy hasn’t failed then you’ll have no problem with this quote remaining here. It’s not your place to tell people what to think, let the readers determine that for themselves.Jadon (talk) 15:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Failed Prophecies section

The section "Failed Prophecies" I'm placing here for further discussion and consensus. The sources are minimal and not objective third party sources.

Entering wording and bolding it like this in less than 5 years and in the next sixty days isn't the way to do things. Basileias (talk) 17:18, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I only added emphases to the quote because some unregistared IP's kept deleting on the claim that these prophecies never stated an expiration... it's in poor form I know. Jadon (talk) 16:31, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

#"The End of Gospel Television by 1999"

1. • "Right now I sense in my spirit that in less than 5 years there will be no more so-called gospel television networks. They will all fall into bankruptcy and absolute ruin." (Solomon Church Dec. 12, 1994)
2. "Financial Crash in 2000"
   • "For the last two years I have been crying aloud, warning all who would hear that America is receiving her last call and that judgment is at the door. I did not say this was the end of the nation, but the last call before a financial crash." (April 15, 2000). I am writing this letter to you on Saturday, April 15, 2000. I have on my desk the headlines in yesterday's paper: "BLACK FRIDAY - BIGGEST ONE-DAY DROP IN HISTORY." The Dow fell 618 points - the Nasdaq fell 355. I do not know what is coming in the next sixty days. If the market bounces back, I can assure you it will be temporary. THE CRASH IS INEVITABLE - NOTHING CAN STOP IT"

Regarding the first statement about the end of gospel television... He clearly had it wrong. He clearly stated that he expected all gospel television to be off the air by 2000, and that did not happen.

Regarding the second statement about a financial crash... I disagree that he clearly stated that the crash would necessarily occur in within 60 days of his original statement. Indeed, he clearly stated that he *didn't know* what the next 60 days would hold. Rather, he only said that a crash would inevitably happen at some *undisclosed* time. Honestly, given the cyclical nature of economies, it would have been virtually impossible for him to have been incorrect on that point.142.177.247.67 (talk) 13:55, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

References

Prophecies

I've moved this section here because it's largely uncited. I also question whether it's even notable to have this in the article. Basileias (talk) 17:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Wilkerson claimed to have received a vision in 1973 regarding the future of the United States and subsequently gave a sermon on the vision and published a book called The Vision. He has said that God revealed to him a great calamity which was going to befall America due to increase in "sins" such as homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, and greed.

Some of the details of this reputed vision were:

1. "Worldwide recession caused by economic confusion"
   • "At most a few more fat flourishing years, and then an economic recession that's going to affect the life style of every wage-earner in the world. The world economists are going to be at loss to explain what's happening. It's going to start in Europe, spread to Japan and finally to the United States."
   • There will be a move toward a worldwide, unified monetary system. The US dollar will be hit bad and it will take years for it to recover.
   • The only real security will be in real estate (until a somewhat later stage, at which point this apparent security will also disappear).
2. "Nature having labor pains"
   • Environmentalists will come under heavy criticism.
   • There will be major earthquakes.
   • There will be a major famine.
   • Floods, hurricanes and tornadoes will increase in frequency.
   • "A new kind of cosmic storm appearing as a raging fire in the sky leaving a kind of vapor trail."
3. "A flood of filth and a baptism of dirt in America"
   • Topless women will appear on television, followed by full nudity.
   • Adult, X rated movies will be shown on cable television. Young people will gather at homes to watch this kind of material in groups.
   • Sex and the occult will be mixed.
   • There will be an acceptance of homosexuality, and the church will even say that it is a God-given gift.
4. "Rebellion in the home"
   • "I see the new number one youth problem in America and the world as hatred towards parents."
5. "A persecution madness against truly Spirit filled Christians who love Jesus Christ"
   • There will arise a world church consisting of a union between liberal ecumenical Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church, using Christ in name only.
   • There will be a hate Christ movement.
   • There will be a spiritual awakening behind the Iron and Bamboo Curtains.
6. Others
   • There will be another wave of riots.
   • There will be a fall in moral conduct.
   • There will be a new drug that will be popular with teenagers that will break down resistance and will encourage sexual activity.
   • Homosexual and lesbian ministers will be ordained and this will be heralded as a new breed of pioneer.
   • There will be occult practices in churches.

It is surely clear from the introduction that this whole section is a summary of material in Wilkerson's book "The Vision". What more is needed for citation? Page numbers? Full bibliographic details for "The Vision"? This was published by Pyramid in 1974, ISBN-10: 0515032867, ISBN-13: 978-0515032864, source for this is amazon.com . Peterkirk (talk) 18:51, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

If a book is notable, it surely can be mentioned but summarized. What is currently there is quite lengthy. If a book is notable it will be covered by major news outlets. Authors who have notable religious books for example would be Rob Bell, Joel Osteen, Bart D. Ehrman, etc. I am not sure Wilkerson rises to that level. Basileias (talk) 01:50, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

This material is important for understanding the life and work of Wilkerson. It is not bias to summarise an author's work. Also this material is of significant current public interest, in the wake of Wilkerson's death, and of events such as a major earthquake in Japan which Wilkerson predicted. There is sufficient interest in the subject that my blog post David Wilkerson prophecy: earthquakes in Japan and USA received 10,000 page views in one day, mostly through a link from the conspiracy theory website rense.com. I am asking for this prophecy section, linked to in my blog post, to be reinstated. Peterkirk (talk) 19:13, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

If it's straight from David Wilkerson's book then add that content to a page about his book, otherwise this is a primary source and not third party as is the standard... wiki bios aren't intended to be promotional tools. Jadon (talk) 20:20, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Jadon, it's not my material and I don't have a copy of the book to confirm the provenance. Surely wiki bios about authors are allowed to summarise the message of their books. I am concerned that the edits by Basileias are showing bias given that almost the only information given about this user is that he/she is "a former Christian". Peterkirk (talk) 20:29, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I understand your concerns Peterkirk, but all of Basileias edits to date are to strictly follow wiki's policy on quality of sources. We're supposed to use third party sources... and a book written by Wilkerson himself is a primary source. If you find better sources for this information you can add it back. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Third-party_sources and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Party_and_person —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jadon (talk • contribs) 13:43, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

References

A problem source

This website seems to be an exclusive source for the failed prophecy section, http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/david-wilkerson-prophecy.htm. The issue I'm raising about the use of this source is it's reliability and the no original research issue. It is a Christian publication with a likely bias. If other additional sources that are less likely to share this bias can be used, it would be better. Basileias (talk) 17:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you that it's not a preferable source, but at the moment I can't find anything better. There's youtube videos of his speeches where Wilkerson gives these false/failed prophecies, it's a primary source but in a non-text format, is that better? Regardless, a non-preferential source is better than no source, even according to wiki code. I'm glad you took all the rest of the material down, my goal was to add something to balance all of his claims of prophecy... which to me is a dangerous untruth that shouldn't be promoted by an encyclopedia. Jadon (talk) 16:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Unless the predictions have been covered by news journalists or other very significant authors, that would leave Wilkerson's books themselves as the sole source. If Wilkerson is the sole source then maybe a one or two sentence mention about his "claims" should be enough. Basileias (talk) 02:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I have reinstated the Prophecy section cut down to a two sentence summary. I hope this is OK. Peterkirk (talk) 11:25, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, that's fine with me. Jadon (talk) 13:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Excellent summary, but another editor will probably tag that as needing a source. Basileias (talk) 13:36, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Quotes

I'm now concerned about the new "Quotes" section. What usually ends up happening is shocking or someones personal favorite is what gets inserted. Already the two most recent haven't really had a good source and a reason as to "why" they should be there. Basileias (talk) 03:08, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Quote selection is POV at best, misleading at worst. Should be removed. Cresix (talk) 03:20, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Death

The way the account of his death is written, accompanied by the quote included in the same section it appears to me that David Wilkerson either committed suicide, or that his death was otherwise of "mysterious origin", (no seatbelt, "veered left of center", "not an accident").
Check this blog http://lastdaysareuponus.blogspot.com/ Since there are no sources cited that would support this view, is it possible that the "last blog post" either be separated from the "Death" section, or, better yet, removed?
I believe this would help preserve the non-POV, and encyclopedic nature of the article and give his death a bit more dignity and less of a tabloid feel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.116.205.162 (talk) 19:55, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Seriously? JayHubie (talk) 16:39, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Those who attend his son Gary Wilkerson's Springs church in Colorado have noted that six months before his death, David Wilkerson was so physically weak that he could not stand while preaching; he had to be seated while delivering a 40 minute sermon. If such were the case six months before the car crash, then it is evident that he was really not in any condition to be driving at all---yet his wife and daughter were in the vehicle with him. It's hard for a lot of older men to give up driving, after having done so for their entire adult life. It is understandable how frustrating the loss of one's physical strength can be in later years. I don't see the accident as intentional at all, but as a tragedy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.214.210 (talk) 21:56, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

File:Times-wikerson.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Times-wikerson.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 29 April 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Times-wikerson.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 08:10, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on David Wilkerson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100507110817/http://www.wilkersonpublications.com:80/The-Cross-and-the-Switchblade-P6C2.aspx to http://www.wilkersonpublications.com/The-Cross-and-the-Switchblade-P6C2.aspx

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 22:32, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Senior posting or senior pastor?

Is there a typo in the heading, "Senior posting"? Should it read, "Senior pastor" instead? I've never heard of "posting" as a career related to church ministry. I'm pretty sure Wilkerson's official title at Times Square Church was Senior Pastor, and perhaps he has been the senior pastor of other churches before that, since circa 1950. Can anybody explain why "posting" was used? Otherwise, should it be corrected with a change to "pastor"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.126.74 (talk) 06:20, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on David Wilkerson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090916161446/http://teenchallengeusa.com:80/program/history.php to http://www.teenchallengeusa.com/program/history.php
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131102102754/http://www.livingwaters.com:80/helps/HellsBestKeptSecret.pdf to http://www.livingwaters.com/helps/HellsBestKeptSecret.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:05, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on David Wilkerson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.teenchallengeusa.com/program/history.php
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090221065833/http://www.acadc.citymax.com/page/page/2495014.htm to http://www.acadc.citymax.com/page/page/2495014.htm
• Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.livingwaters.com/helps/HellsBestKeptSecret.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:08, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on David Wilkerson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130514044240/http://www.worldchallenge.org/about_david_wilkerson/dw_fullbio to http://www.worldchallenge.org/about_david_wilkerson/dw_fullbio

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:02, 30 November 2017 (UTC)