Talk:Cha-seung Baek

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. I'll close this now as the request has been open for almost seven weeks. Discussion has clearly come to an end without any consensus being reached. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 22:52, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

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• Cha Seung Baek → Cha-Seung Baek
• Jae Kuk Ryu → Jae-Kuk Ryu
• Jae Weong Seo → Jae-Weong Seo
• Chan Ho Park → Chan-Ho Park

– Per WP:BLP accuracy, WP:CRITERIA WP:PRECISION. See Talk:Choo_Shin-Soo#Requested_move,given unusual US-baseball context reversing normal order these four BLPs are ambiguous without the hyphen. Due to varying transcription systems Cha, Jae, Chan could also be surnames if by normal Korean order. --Relisted Cúchullain ^t/c 22:04, 9 January 2013 (UTC)Relisted. BDD (talk) 19:33, 27 December 2012 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk) 06:23, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Not sure how to resolve this with WP:COMMONNAME, as most Google news hits I see don't use the hyphen for these people.—Bagumba (talk) 07:44, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Neither am I. Let's be clear that the majority of US baseball sources do not add the hyphen for clarity. Checking on the first name Josh Lewin, Josh Hamilton Ballgame!: A Decade Covering the Texas Rangers from the Best Seat 2012 Page 98 "a rookie Korean named Cha-Seung Baek and Paul Lebowitz's 2010 Baseball Guide Page 346 "RHP Cha-Seung Baek was not re-signed." are the exception, not the rule. However the context is different. US-baseball texts don't really need this disambiguation, since in US-baseball-English Korean surnames come last. I'm surprised that even Lewin/Hamilton and Paul Lebowitz bother to add the hyphen (but then they are printed sources and maybe that's tighter than ESPN or websites?). But en.wp isn't written in baseball-limited context, it's an encyclopedia which would nomrally write Cha Seung Baek as Baek Cha Sung, surname first. As a concession to baseball style the surname has been reversed for a tiny number of WikiProject Korea / WP Biography articles which are also WikiProject Baseball articles. A concession in the other way, to follow Lewin/Hamilton and Paul Lebowitz's printed clarification allows us to keep to WP:COMMONNAME but also take on board a more WP:PRECISION and WP:BLP view while maintaining US-baseball order. I'm suggesting a small, painless and helpful compromise which is already supported by WP:RS like Lewin/Hamilton and Paul Lebowitz. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:29, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

This issue with hyphens seems similar to the use of diacritics, which currently depends on its use in common sources, not which spelling is "correct". Also, the naming is not a consession to baseball per se, it is following COMMONNAME, which for this subject is mostly comprised of baseball-related sources. Perhaps the hyphenated name can be clarified in a hatnote or some other way in the opening sentence.—Bagumba (talk) 18:36, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't this has much if anything to do with normal hyphen discussion on Wikipedia. These are people not airports. And COMMONNAME concerns Bill Clinton (not William Jefferson Clinton); Caffeine (not 1,3,7-Trimethyl-1H-purine-2,6(3H,7H)-dione) it isn't a license to simply reproduce inaccuracy from non-print sources. As it stands these 4 BLPs are misleading. If we saw a name Michael James we'd assume James was the surname, not James Michael. In this case we're creating confusion. What's the advantage in creating confusion about whether a person's name is James John or John James? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Consider WP:UE on the same article title page: "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage." As far as surnames, if the page doesn't say otherwise, the usual assumption is that the surname is the last name. I suppose {{Korean name}} can be added if there is concern that the last name would still be confused as not being the last name.—Bagumba (talk) 23:07, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Bagumba

(1) Unfortunately not, that's the whole problem. If we follow WP:UE then English-language usage is to put Korean surnames first. The new lady president of S. Korea is Park Geun-hye, not Geun-hye Park. Although the page does have a hatnote for readers who don't realise this.

(2) Yes, someone will have to add {{Korean name}} if Lewin/Hamilton and Paul Lebowitz's simple hyphen solution is not allowed. But that doesn't help anyone until they've already got to the page. It would be a lot easier to just follow quality English baseball sources like Lewin/Hamilton and Paul Lebowitz rather than make the title follow sports webpages. What disadvantage is there in Lewin/Hamilton and Paul Lebowitz's solution?

In ictu oculi (talk) 10:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The current style reflects English sources. It is not a concession to baseball as suggested; it follows common usage of all sources, the majority of which are baseball-related for these baseball players. I'm not convinced an exception to common usage is warranted. We don't force a hyphen to Hillary Rodham Clinton to make it easier to distinguish a middle name from a last name.—Bagumba (talk) 00:59, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Try baseball player An Chi Yong: is An the surname or is Yong the surname? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:09, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

As evidenced by Rodham Clinton, English is far from perfect. Wikipedia should not be changing commonly-seen names and WP:ASTONISHing readers in the know with a new spelling, and misleading unfamiliar readers with an uncommon hyphenated spelling. We should not WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS by trying to "fix" commonly used names. The English world should change before WP adopts those changes.—Bagumba (talk) 07:00, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Bagumba,

The answer re An Chi Yong is that An the surname (the example is from Japanese wikipedia)

As regards WP:ASTONISHment since ["cha seung" baek -wikipedia baseball] in Google Books shows almost half of printed sources address the problem, so "the English world should change" isn't really the issue.

Back to the WP:BLP accuracy, WP:CRITERIA and WP:PRECISION problems, these are best illustrated by one of those results; Korea Now magazine in 2004 A NEW KOREAN ARRIVAL — Seattle Mariners pitcher Cha Seung-baek. (in other words someone back in Seoul at Korea Now got an ESPN news feed and read "Cha Seung Baek" as 차승백, not what it actually is 백차승). In ictu oculi (talk) 10:37, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Cha Seung Baek is used in the overwhelming majority of news sources; book are sources too, but you need to examine all reliable sources. While I respect your rationale for wanting to ignore WP:COMMONNAME, I just don't think Wikipedia should be the forerunner in effecting the change you desire.—Bagumba (talk) 19:27, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.