Talk:Black Breath (band)

Requested move 28 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 00:33, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

---

Black Breath (band) → Black Breath – "Black Breath" is mentioned once in passing at Nazgûl. That isn't really sufficient to warrant a redirect there with another competing title. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 00:49, 28 September 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 14:59, 5 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Edward-Woodrow • talk 23:23, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

original closure
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lightoil (talk) 09:02, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. It appears the only reason this article is disambiguated is because the redirect already existed in 2010 when this article was created. It probably should have been written right over the redirect. Station1 (talk) 05:21, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support or at least disambiguate. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:51, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Um, guys, this should have been notified to WikiProject Middle-earth, where it would have been contested. I just found out when someone updated the hatnote at Nazgûl as a fait accompli, which is no sort of proper procedure. This discussion has been conducted improperly, so I am reopening the discussion now, and am striking the closing notice (leaving it in place) as premature. I will post a notice on the WikiProject now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:24, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Right, I've posted a notice at WikiProject Middle-earth; since that project is clearly a relevant interested party, a period of 7 days from today should now elapse to allow time for project members to contribute if they wish. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:44, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap: If this was meant to be a new RM (based on striking out the original date), then it should have been a new RM. Instead you removed a closure that you disagreed with, without contacting the closer (@Lightoil), with no basis in WP:RMCI (notifications of "interested parties" are not required) or WP:MR (you should have asked the closer to reopen it), and in a way that makes this RM malformed and in need of cleanup (the banner, the heading for RMCD bot, the old move template). And your notification at WT:WikiProject Middle-earth, in my view, goes against WP:CANVASSING because it is non-neutral (negative toward the previous closure). SilverLocust 💬 00:42, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

If I removed the wrong bit I'm sorry, but the clear intention is to have a fresh start. If Any paperwork is needed fir that then please have it done. On canvassing, no, it is normal to inform the WikiProjects involved neutrally that a discussion is under way so that all sides can take part. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:38, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. It is plainly unacceptable that the correctly-constructed redirect to Nazgûl should be summarily destroyed, as readers can reasonably expect to able to use that entirely plausible search term to locate a relevant Middle-earth article that covers the subject. In the past year, the redirect was used 247 times; since 2015, it has been used 4,302 times, which is not negligible. The term obviously originates from Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, where the phrase is used. It is equally evident that the band, like several other heavy/death metal bands (such as Morgoth (band), Cirith Ungol (band)), chose their name for its resonances with dark "metal" characters like the Nazgûl. The association with Middle-earth is therefore primary both in the minds of Tolkien readers and in the minds of the metal bands concerned. I hear nom's concern that the Black Breath was mentioned only briefly in the article, and will remedy that now, as it clearly deserves discussion: there is no shortage of Reliable Sources on the subject, in journals such as Mallorn, Tolkien Studies, and Journal of Tolkien Research. I would point out, however, that a mention is normally all that is required for a redirect to be kept at XfD: I certainly see no justification for deleting the redirect to Nazgûl, indeed I think its deletion plainly improper and contrary to policy. If this RM decides that a move is needed, we should at the least have a disambiguation page, rather than simply removing a valid redirect. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:58, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

I've added a new section Nazgûl#The Black Breath discussing some of the scholarly analysis of the topic. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:00, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

In the past year, the redirect was used 247 times; since 2015, it has been used 4,302 times. By contrast, the band's article has been accessed 8,883 times in the past year and 82,648 times since 2015. The usage argument does nothing to establish WP:PRIMARYTOPIC status for the Nazgul's ability, and in fact strongly suggests that the PRIMARYTOPIC is the band. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. I cannot be persuaded that it is appropriate for ephemeral topics such as bands to claim precedence for article titles over their etymological and sociocultural inspirations. When the band is dead, buried, and forgotten, do we then spend more editorial time fighting over switching titles and redirects for a few decades until the last fans are dead, buried, and forgotten? It ought to be a clear matter of policy, rather than a source of endless editorial debates, that a thing that is named for something else is the thing that gets the parenthetical in the title. Exceptions would happen only when the original is effectively culturally extinct. Strebe (talk) 15:44, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nomination, Station1 and Crouch, Swale. There is no "Black Breath" disambiguation page with the toxic traits of the Middle-earth characters Nazgûl posited as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and the American Black Breath (band) posited as the subsidiary topic. What we actually have is a sole entry for the band bearing that name and a mention of the toxic breath at Nazgûl#The Black Breath. A hatnote atop the entry for the band Black Breath that would point to the Nazgûl#The Black Breath section header is sufficient. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:14, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

No, that is confused. There was (and again now is) a simple redirect page, as the two articles have different titles, with the band's article containing the disambiguator "(band)". All of that is standard practice, and it works fine both here and elsewhere. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:30, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per Chiswick Chap and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (I do not recognise Roman Spinner's, er, spin on that - we decide the primary topic before applying it, not as an afterthought once we have had our fling).. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:27, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment. Has nobody here yet noticed that on 30 September 2023, a couple days after this RM opened, an active IP editor quietly created a disambiguation at black breath?! – which was also a redirect to Nazgûl. Per 67.70.25.175, black breath is a magical ability of the Nazgul Ringwraiths in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-Earth; see Plants in Middle-earth.
  Thanks for that concise layman's summary, though on a disambiguation page it violates WP:DDD – only one blue link per line, please.
  @Dicklyon: is Black Breath, in the context of Tolkien's Middle-Earth, a valid proper name, or should it just be a generic term "black breath"? Sorry, guys, I couldn't restrain myself from that ping; I'm in a grumpy mood at bedtime after a particularly long, unproductive day. I'll try to get my bot enhanced to provide project notices for special situations like this one, in the next day or three, before this RM closes... wbm1058 (talk) 03:04, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

It is capitalised as "Black Breath" and treated as a proper name in The Lord of the Rings. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:08, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

OK, I see that the term is virtually always preceded by "the": The Black Breath. Presumably contracted when in close proximity to nine bad Men called Nazgûl because they release a mysterious form of radioactivity or poison gas. The Black Death is similarly capitalized and also frequently preceded with "the", and had the same effect on people. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:03, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment @Lightoil: Courtesy ping, since none of these users have followed proper procedure and discussed this on your talk page. @Chiswick Chap: Please familiarize yourself with WP:MR; undoing a closed requested move the way you did is not appropriate. 162 etc. (talk) 14:10, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for the ping, I am aware of the improper reversal of my close. Lightoil (talk) 14:24, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you for the ping, I am aware of the improper closure. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:32, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Chiswick Chap my close was not improper and you should not have reversed it. Lightoil (talk) 15:02, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  Then it was the notification procedure that was improper. Anyway, it's water under the bridge now; I understand the strong feelings (on both sides, as it happens), and would do things differently if I ever came across such a situation again; I sincerely hope you would, too. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:07, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Chiswick Chap no notification was needed for wikiprojects per WP:RMCM. If you wish to change that please start a WP:RFC. Lightoil (talk) 15:57, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  Clearly an RFC could have been launched to reverse the decision that you tried to cement here, or it could have been undone in other ways, we will never know. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:27, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Chiswick Chap, I have no idea what you are trying to say but if you disagree with my close you should have discussed it with me on my talk page and I would have relisted the discussion. Lightoil (talk) 16:39, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

• If you ever do anything like that again without the courtesy of telling the WikiProjects involved, then I will certainly write something on your talk page. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:42, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Chiswick Chap, again wikiproject notifications are not necessary please start an WP:RFC if you feel so strongly about that. Lightoil (talk) 16:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  We are talking about basic courtesy in a situation where WikiProject members were unlikely to have been aware of a matter which (as it turns out) they did in fact feel strongly about. We should not be falling back on rulebooks, procedures, process, and protocol when basic human decency and collegiality were required in order to get a good decision based on the actual range of opinions involved, rather than hiding in a cupboard hoping nobody would notice until too late: that is no way to behave, never was, and is never going to be. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:53, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  Chiswick Chap, please avoid personal attacks. Lightoil did nothing wrong. You did, by unilaterally reverting a closed RM. You should have contacted the closer, and if that was not enough, used WP:MRV or started a new RM. Although not unheard of, it is unusual for Wikiprojects to be manually notified of RMs; it happens in only a small fraction of cases. Station1 (talk) 20:07, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, it should be pointed out that even if the excessively burdensome obligation of notifying every WikiProject listed on every talk page of every RM was an actual requirement, it still would not have made any difference in the case at hand since the only WikiProjects listed upon this talk page, above, are these five — WP:WikiProject Albums, WP:WikiProject Metal, WP:WikiProject United States, WP:WikiProject Washington and WP:WikiProject Seattle. No other article or talk page is impacted as part of this nomination. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:45, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per ChiswickChap; the toxic ability of the Nazgul is far better known than some obscure band who will likely be forgotten soon after they retire. --Happy editing, SilverTiger12 (talk) 17:18, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. I think this is a fairly clear case of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The Lord of the Rings franchise has had many of its elements enter the broader popular consciousness, but the Black Breath – a singular ability possessed by one of the series' secondary villains – is decidedly not among them. Conversely, while the band is certainly on the niche side, I think it has a fairly clear claim for usage and significance. It enjoys more than sixteen times the monthly average pageviews held by the redirect, and it's been written about in venues like The New York Times and Yahoo. Claims that the band is "ephemeral" or "will likely be forgotten soon after they retire" are complete WP:CRYSTAL and should be disregarded by the eventual closer. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  In addition, I'd like to echo the views of others who have emphasized that unilaterally reverting the closure is a completely inappropriate way of contesting an RM result. I also can't say I care for the tone of the notification left on the WikiProject page. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Last relist before I think this should be closed as "no consensus" Edward-Woodrow • talk 23:23, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.