Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums

Adding dates to album listings in a template

I was visiting Template:Pentatonix, removing non-linking album listings as inappropriate for navigation templates, and I noted that the template had dates applies to all the albums and EPs. I don't recall seeing that before for templates, and I felt that dates were more for directories and should not be in the navigation box template. I read the guidelines in WP:NAVBOX, and I am not sure after reading it that it does clearly state that non-linking listings should be removed from Navboxes, and I am unsure about dates. I just reviewed the Navbox for Template:The Rolling Stones and Template:The Beatles albums, and see that The Rolling Stone listing includes dates and the Beatles albums listing does not include date, so I am guessing it is by personal choice. I would like to ask for thoughts on this. Mburrell (talk) 04:23, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Sometimes they are in there and I find them helpful for context. I recently made {{Phoebe Snow}} and {{Rick Danko}} and included them. Note that while there is a strong preference for existing, stand-alone articles, there could be times when including a redlink or a redirect that isn't bypassed could be appropriate, like if a band has five albums and we only have full articles for four, but the third redirects to their discography. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:38, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I've always taken it as a style choice. It's not unhelpful info and there's not really reason to not have them so long as the page doesn't get overcrowded. Like the Rolling Stones one might be better off without them just because of how big it is, but it's not a big deal. In the ones I've made I mostly don't add them, though a couple times (Tobacco and Sons of Kemet) I have and I think it looks fine with 'em. To be honest, I probably wasn't thinking about it much when I did make those and just did it because I happened to remember it was a thing I could add. But the rest that don't have 'em look fine too. So I guess it's editor's discretion unless more editors come along with a major consensus either way. QuietHere (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't recall the exact venue, but it was a big debate a few years back. Some felt it was helpful, while others didn't feel it aided in navigation and felt it should be removed. It ended up being a stalemate, with the only agreement being to treat it sort of like WP:ENGVAR, as in, don't Switch back and forth between formats. The fact that I'm the only one so far remembering this though is probably a testament to how little it's been enforced though... Sergecross73 msg me 12:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

No, I remember the debate as well, I was just trying to find it before commenting. I'm also ambivalent about including the years or not, although like QuietHere, I think it can make things a bit difficult to read in a large navbox and just takes up room. I know that WikiProject Jazz has a rule of making the years in the navbox the recording date of an album, rather than the release date – for jazz albums it's very common that these dates can vary wildly, as live concerts may be recorded but only officially released years later. It does mean, however, that the dates and the chronological order vary between the infobox and the navbox, which I sometimes find confusing, and I wonder whether in these cases it's better to leave the navbox dates out entirely. Richard3120 (talk) 14:25, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

In that case I would stick strictly to release dates just to avoid that confusion and keep standard with other genres. QuietHere (talk) 15:11, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

There are good reasons for jazz using recording dates. Putting recording dates in a template is possible, as is including a statement that the years are of recording. I see no reason to change this. EddieHugh (talk) 18:55, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I mean if it's made clear that they're recording dates then I suppose it's fine. Excuse me, I hadn't seen any examples and I suppose I spoke out of turn. QuietHere (talk) 19:16, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

It's fine. An example is Template:Lee Morgan (click on 'show'). However, I don't know how accurate it is! EddieHugh (talk) 19:20, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, if it's clearly stated then it okay. EddieHugh, I do understand why jazz albums are often listed by recording dates: unlike albums in almost any other genre, which are generally both recorded and released in the same chronological order, jazz albums are often released years after recording and in haphazard order, with the result that there are albums being released now in the 2020s by musicians who died 20 or 30 years ago. Seeing dozens of "2010s albums" and "2020s albums" for long-deceased artists in the navbox would be weird, I absolutely understand that. My concern was simply that if it isn't made clear in some way, it could be confusing to the casual reader to see entirely different dates listed in the infobox and the navbox. Richard3120 (talk) 19:28, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, yes. There's the additional point that published jazz discographies are usually presented by recording dates (release dates are often not mentioned). This also aids listeners, who are often interested in how a musician changed over time – this can be obscured by sequencing based on when record labels chose to release material. EddieHugh (talk) 18:01, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't doubt any of this, the main part of the discourse though is if that truly belongs in navigation templates or if it's more suited for discographies. If we're re-litigating the issue, I believe the latter, but if not, I won't push further. Sergecross73 msg me 18:16, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Here are links to a couple of archived RFCs related to the topic:

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Music/Archive 37#RFC about album years in navigation templates
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Archive 40#RfC on whether Navigational templates should have articles that do not have their own dedicated article, or are a redirect to their artists discography

--Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 22:12, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars, thank you. This answered my questions. Mburrell (talk) 01:02, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

• Keep years for albums - I support keeping the year of release for albums in navigation boxes for musicians and musical ensembles. --Jax 0677 (talk) 23:04, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

My request at WP:CR was rejected

My request at WP:CR to formally close this discussion was rejected weeks ago. --Jax 0677 (talk) 22:33, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - Archived request. --Jax 0677 (talk) 22:36, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

  Rightfully so. You should take their advice and stop asking for closure in so many unnecessary situations. Sergecross73 msg me 22:53, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Progarchy

Progarchy is a website dedicated to progressive rock. Its "About" page[1] includes "Our goal is to support beautiful music, specifically progressive rock in all its varied forms, through album reviews, interviews, concert reviews, and articles. We are all volunteers." It lists three "Editors", a number of "Progarchists", and appears to be well-organized. Currently, it's used as a source in 20 WP articles.[2]

A quick google book search[3] shows that Progarchy appears in a list of references for one academic-type book, where one of the listed editors is named in the main text. But that's about it; the other two editors don't show up and I didn't go through the Progarchists. The similarly named Prog Archives is listed on WP:NOTRSMUSIC with this discussion, but there doesn't appear to be a connection. Should Progarchy be considered a reliable source for WP purposes? Or perhaps just selected contributors?

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:06, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Progressive rock sources are a big problem in general for Wikipedia. The ones that are used most frequently for prog-related articles are Prog Archives, DPRP (Dutch Progressive Rock Page) and Sea of Tranquility, but none of them look like good sources to me, more like group blogs. But I also understand that it's difficult to find any coverage of this genre – the one genuinely reliable source that I know of is the UK's Prog magazine. Progarchy actually looks better than the three sources I listed above (it has editors and properly-conducted interviews with the big names of the genre), but I'll need to have a further look. Richard3120 (talk) 16:39, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

IPs have been trying to add prog rock for Led Zeppelin's version of "In My Time of Dying" for over a year. The latest added Progarchy as a source.[4] Written by Progarchist Connor Mullin, it mentions the song in passing, "Zeppelin’s repertoire only became more progressive after the immense success of IV ... Physical Graffiti not only featured their longest song ('In My Time of Dying', eleven minutes)", before praising "Kashmir" as "one of the finest progressive rock songs ever composed".

A google book search for Mullin doesn't show he has written any books or is mentioned in any music-related ones. Anyway, it's a stretch to use prog rock as a genre based on the fact that it is "their longest song", unless there is something special about the source.

—Ojorojo (talk) 18:25, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

For "In My Time of Dying", or for "Kashmir"? Not sure how you can use a description of one song as a genre for a completely different song. Led Zep weren't particularly proggy anyway, throughout their career - not sure I would even consider "Kashmir" as prog rock, its not the first genre that comes to mind when the song is usually described. Richard3120 (talk) 18:58, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. The other sources describe "In My Time of Dying" as blues-based – not surprising, given Page's slide guitar playing and the fact that it was originally recorded by Blind Willie Johnson. BTW, Prog Archives mentioned earlier is used in 181 articles[5] even though it is listed on WP:NOTRSMUSIC/WP:ALBUMAVOID as "Non-professional review website, fails WP:USERG". —Ojorojo (talk) 22:57, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

No opinion on source, but to me sounds like the specific problems with how the source is used may be easier solved by more stringent application of WP:OR (cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article) and WP:NEWSBLOG. PaulT2022 (talk) 04:23, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the "does not clearly support" approach is taken at the current Talk:In My Time of Dying#RfC on progressive rock. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:30, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

My request at WP:CR was rejected

My request at WP:CR to formally close this discussion was rejected weeks ago. --Jax 0677 (talk) 22:33, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - Archived request. --Jax 0677 (talk) 22:38, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Could users please comment on my RfC

It is located here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Music#RfC:_Using_the_album_ratings_of_Colin_Larkin_(author_of_The_Virgin_Encyclopedia_of_Popular_Music_and_its_offshoot_tomes)_on_Wikipedia

Thanks. 81.157.51.237 (talk) 20:41, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Source reliability query

Started a query regarding the reliability of the music website Earmilk, and of course that concerns this WikiProject as well so here's a notice about it. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 12:53, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Now that a project-independent quality assessment has been implemented, I am curious to find out if members of this project feel that this one should opt out of it. Changes made by this edit to {{WikiProject Albums}} have removed classifications of future and redirect (anything assessed as "future-class" now comes up as "unassessed" and "redirect-class" is now displayed as "NA-class"). Are there other ramifications to this change that affect how others utilize this project and the project banner? Thanks. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 00:53, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Rufus Wainwright album : Track listing for reissue

I've shared a link at the bottom of Talk:Rufus Wainwright (album) which confirms the track listing for a 25th anniversary reissue of the album, if someone here knows how to update the track listing section appropriately. Thanks in advance for any help here. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:37, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Someone has added the new tracks, but the Good article could still use help with formatting. Also, can editors weigh in on the appropriateness of adding the new album cover? I'm not sure about the rules here. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:45, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of State to State (808 State albums)

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

A tag has been placed on State to State (808 State albums) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G4 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion discussion, such as at Articles for deletion. When a page has substantially identical content to that of a page deleted after a discussion, and any changes in the content do not address the reasons for which the material was previously deleted, it may be deleted at any time.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. 64.229.90.172 (talk) 22:07, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Category:Quazar albums has been nominated for discussion

Category:Quazar albums has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 05:43, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Doolittle (album) Featured article review

I have nominated Doolittle (album) for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:46, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Release dates

What do you do if an album is first released in a country other than the band's native one BEFORE it's released in their own country? Does the first release, no matter where it is, always take precedence in terms of the listed release date? For example, Devo's Q: Are We Not Men?... seems to have been first issued in the U.S. on September 15, 1978, according to the liner notes of Pioneers Who Got Scalped: The Anthology (2000), but the August 19, 1978 issue of Record Mirror[6] says it was to be released in the UK on September 1. The MOS states Only the earliest known date that the album was released should be specified, and states the same for the label. So should the infobox/lead use the UK date and label? Or would that be odd for a U.S. band? —The Keymaster (talk) 07:22, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Two albums come to mind that list the foreign release first, Cheap Trick at Budokan and Frampton Comes Alive! They also include the first home country release date as well, so that may be an option to lessen the ? factor. Others will probably have examples showing either, so it may be worth standardizing. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:17, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

A definitive example of this is Aladdin Sane. For 40 years its release date was April 13, 1973. Well all of a sudden "new evidence" says it was April 20, but "made available" on April 19. Then this year it's officially April 19. Benoît Clerc's 2022 book says April 13 was its US date, and April 19 was UK, yet April 19 sits in the infobox and lead section currently. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 18:03, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The infobox should only show one release date, which should be the earliest known release date. Explanation of other release dates can be listed in article. Per Wikipedia's guidelines for the album release section in the infobox "Only the earliest known date that the album was released should be specified." This is why we have a whole article attached to the infobox, so that a table of release dates and countries can be created, or it can be listed in the lead paragraph, or listed in a separate section. Keep infoboxes clean, and only list one release date, the first known release date, per Wikipedia guidelines. Mburrell (talk) 18:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@Mburrell I cited that guideline in my initial post, but I'm asking if there are exceptions when it comes to conflicts with country of origin, and others have pointed out examples of that. I'd agree that, ideally, only one should be listed. As Ojorojo suggested, this might be something to clarify at the template. The Keymaster (talk) 21:24, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@The Keymaster, I know that you listed that guideline in your initial post, and I am stating that there are no exceptions. Infobox should be kept clean, first known release date only.Mburrell (talk) 03:54, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

@Zmbro Interesting. So in that instance they seem to be clinging to country of origin, rather than the first actual release date. The Keymaster (talk) 21:25, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

That's my takeaway. The US release dates for Hunky Dory and Ziggy Stardust were also reportedly before the UK ones: in the case of Hunky, December 17, 1971 (the UK one) is seen as the definitive (the US one was either November 17 or December 4 I can't recall atm); for Ziggy the date is June 16, 1972 for the UK while Billboard issues at the time suggested it was released in the US in May. I don't own Clerc's book so I can't see what he said about those unfortunately. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 21:39, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

@Ojorojo Hmm. That actually makes a bit more sense to me, so maybe the template should be amended to say something like, When the first known release date conflicts with the artist's country of origin, list both in the infobox, or something along those lines. I'm just throwing out ideas here. The Keymaster (talk) 21:29, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. As far as I am concerned, there is never any excuse for listing anything other than the first release date in the infobox. I do not care if the country of origin has a later release date, keep the infobox clean and only list the first release date. I believe that all these examples where others are listing two listings in the infobox, one for first release and one for release in the country of the band or singer's origins, are all examples of infoboxes that need to be cleaned up. Do not modify the template guideline. Instead, fix these errors in the infobox listings. Mburrell (talk) 03:54, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Gonna side with Mburrell here. We have much better options for displaying this info (release section prose, release history table, etc.) than adding multiple dates in the infobox, especially when it's inconsistent with other articles which only have the first date regardless of the country. I think it's better to set a hard limit of one so we don't get anyone trying to add several. Country of origin is an overrated factor anyway; plenty of music acts get popular in countries aside from their own. Cheap Trick's popularity in Japan is the whole reason At Budokan exists in the first place. It's no wonder it released months later in their home country. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 05:35, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Alright, so we are saying the release date of Q. Are We Not Men? A: We Are Devo! should be listed as September 1st, 1978, and that the label should be Virgin Records in the UK? If so, I can mention the U.S. date/label in the lead/prose, sourced from Pioneers Who Got Scalped. The Keymaster (talk) 07:25, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Another problem is that the release date currently listed is August 28, with the U.S. version being first, and is supposedly sourced from Simon Reynolds' Rip It Up and Start Again, but I'm not seeing that date in either of my sources. The Keymaster (talk) 07:34, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

[r to Keymaster's earlier ping] I'm a strong believer in the "less is more" approach to infoboxes and that allowing exceptions often leads to more cruft. But, seeing something unfamiliar in |date= and |label= may be confusing for the casual fan or reader. They may think it is an error and attempt to correct it. Perhaps it could be handled with an efn, but these and hidden notes are often ignored. Or subject the sources to more scrutiny – if a majority of the RSs give one date, while only one or two use a different date, that could be treated as a fringe or minority view left to a qualified mention in the main body only. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:03, 30 May 2023 (UTC)