Talk:Benito Mussolini

Infobox

Shouldn't the image in this article's infobox be dated, as is the case with almost every other biography on Wikipedia? 147.147.205.222 (talk) 23:18, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

The date is not known. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:15, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 October 2023

Please decapitalize "Prime Minister" for not following MOS:JOBTITLE. 112.204.199.9 (talk) 11:11, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: It is used correctly, e.g., Theresa May became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom in 2016. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 13:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Lead image again

There's been some back and forth over the lead image again, so I figured it couldn't hurt to open up a new discussion thread. This was last discussed a couple years ago (here) but no clear consensus was achieved.

For reference, here are the two images that have recently been used:

• 
  Image 1
• 
  Image 2

I'm not crazy about either of them, frankly, and have no strong opinion as to which is better. But I see that others do have opinions on the matter, so it would be good to try to establish a consensus if possible. Generalrelative (talk) 01:14, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, 1 looks more neutral, 2 looks like a piece of propaganda. ალექსანდროს (talk) 06:07, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Image 1 has an annoying background, which ruins the image; that’s the simple reason I reverted it. Articles on high-profile individuals are never allowed to have images with bad backgrounds. Trakking (talk) 08:18, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing propagandistic about the second image, which looks like any old black-and-white photo. It would have been ”propaganda” if he was wearing a crown, standing under a banner reading «our noble Caesar». If anything, the first image is more propagandistic since it portrays him as some kind of high-ranking military commander. In reality, both Mussolini and Hitler were only corporals—one of the lowest military ranks. Their primary talent was oratorical demagoguery. Trakking (talk) 10:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I vote for Image 1. The second image has his profile partly shrouded by shadow.Emiya1980 (talk) 22:56, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Nick.mon, M. Armando, Barjimoa, and Rjensen:Emiya1980 (talk) 23:05, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

voting for image 2 as it looks better as portrait. Shadow4dark (talk) 10:38, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Alessandro57, Yakme, Anteosaurus magnificus, HangingCurve, Rrburke, Anthony22, and A.S. Brown: Any thoughts on this issue?Emiya1980 (talk) 08:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

The second is a classic photo of Mussolini as he wanted to be seen (grim look, jaw out: this pose has been the subject of countless satirical drawings abroad), while the first shows him as he actually was. Since Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, I say number one (although there are better photos around). Alex2006 (talk) 12:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Infobox Picture

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Which of the following images should serve as the infobox picture for Benito Mussolini?

• 
  A (Current Image)
• 
  B
• 
  B2
• 
  C
• 
  D
• 
  E
• 
  F

Emiya1980 (talk) 02:15, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@DrKay, Lightiggy, Spf121188, Gennarous, R-41, Shanes, John, Kinneyboy90, Mkpumphrey, Kurt Leyman, Conte di Cavour, Nick Graves, LahmacunKebab, Attilios, and Mvaldemar:Emiya1980 (talk) 06:05, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The current image is fine; B is alright as well. C and D have bad backgrounds. E is taken from an awkward angle. Trakking (talk) 02:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Prefer D since it's in color, is sensibly illustrative, and not contrived or weird like E. After that, probably A, C, B, E in decreasing order. PS: A background that doesn't happen to be completely blank is not "bad". There is no image policy or guidelines basis for such a mis-assessment. Thousands and thousands of our bio articles have photos that are "natural" shots with real-life background elements in them instead of being artificially posed ones with blank or "haloing" background screens. Not only is this not faulty, an argument can be made that the natural ones are preferable.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• NOTA Are these really the best free images of Mussolini that exist?? To be frank all of these are terrible. A and D have tiny resolutions, B and C are quite grainy, and E is a side-profile. With D, I'd also like to know if it is colorized/re-colorized; a reverse image search shows many different variations, which is concerning. Curbon7 (talk) 04:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  Curbon7 You're free to provide an alternative.Emiya1980 (talk) 06:32, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  The Library of Congress has a large collection of negatives of Mussolini here. I'm sure other such repositories have similar. Curbon7 (talk) 06:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  Upload some to Wikimedia Commons then.Emiya1980 (talk) 20:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  You're the RfC starter, you should have been better prepared for such a response when all the presented options are so lacking. Curbon7 (talk) 20:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  That's your opinion.Emiya1980 (talk) 21:01, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  One that I share. Taking this kind of hostile posture toward RfC respondents is unproductive, and you should know better. No one is obligated to satisfy you, especially since you are the one who claims that the current image isn't good enough. You've been told how to find potentially better ones, and the onus is not on someone else to go do that for you.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:19, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

  If one has a problem with the more than 5 choices I originally provided (one of which you were originally in favor of I might add), they are welcome to add their own alternative. There is nothing overtly hostile about pointing that out. As a matter of fact, Curbon7 did set forth his own alternative and I allowed for its inclusion in the list of options without any argument. Perhaps you should have checked that out before offering your unsolicited opinion on the matter. Emiya1980 (talk) 22:27, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

  If D is a recolor (which it almost certainly is, the original seems to have been printed on Agfacolor by Henri Roger-Viollet in 1940 (possible original)), the question becomes if it is a sufficiently neutral recolor, which is a frequent issue with colorizations of Axis figures of this era. Curbon7 (talk) 21:35, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  It's not uncommon for old color photos to be color-graded for use at WP or other projects via Commons. I'm not sure what kind of "neutrality" question could come up about this one.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

  It is important to question the accuracy of colorizations of the photos of Nazi and fascist figures, as some of these colorizations can be completely ludicrous and overly symbological (some examples on K.e. coffman's userpage). Curbon7 (talk) 21:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

  Note I have found a better quality and higher resolution version of B (c:File:Benito Mussolini 1930 (alt).jpg). I think it is quite an improvement and am leaning towards it. Curbon7 (talk) 05:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• I prefer either B or D.Emiya1980 (talk) 21:06, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Alessandro57, Yakme, Anteosaurus magnificus, HangingCurve, Rrburke, Anthony22, and A.S. Brown: Which image do you think should serve as the infobox picture for the Mussolini article?Emiya1980 (talk) 21:04, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Generalrelative, Shadow4dark, Alex2006, and ალექსანდროს:Emiya1980 (talk) 04:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Neveselbert, Rjensen, and Favonian:Emiya1980 (talk) 04:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Barjimoa,M.Armondo, and Nick.mon Which image should serve as the infobox picture for Benito Mussolini?

• A since the alternatives are not a real improvement to the status quo. Nemov (talk) 01:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• A, per reasons stated above and no good reason to change. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• A since the alternatives are not a real improvement, all are flawed in one way or another.Pincrete (talk) 03:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  Agree with @PincretePincrete, maybe the color version would be a slight upgrade, but why not just go with what Italian wiki uses. MaximusEditor (talk) 17:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  MaximusEditor The Italian wikipedia uses F.Emiya1980 (talk) 07:51, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for the clarifying comment, I will cast a vote towards F. I think consistency across the board has its advantages. MaximusEditor (talk) 22:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Note the Italian Wikipedia using this one https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mussolini_mezzobusto.jpg Shadow4dark (talk) 04:46, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Shadow4dark Image added.Emiya1980 (talk) 05:02, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

voting for F as the others are no improvement for the current image. Changing my vote to A Shadow4dark (talk) 05:04, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Adding even more options just makes this a bigger mess for the closer. Nemov (talk) 13:12, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

D is best for an idea of what Italians were forced to see every day . Rjensen (talk) 05:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Barjimoa,M.Armondo, Nick.mon, ალექსანდროს & Generalrelative Which of the images listed above should serve as the infobox picture for Benito Mussolini?Emiya1980 (talk) 05:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

M. Armando See above question.Emiya1980 (talk) 05:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• C - for the key reason that, even though it was taken with Hitler in an official capacity, it is arguably among these photos the least controlled and manipulated one, i.e. the one that does not fully succeed in projecting a propaganda message. A simple visual reproduction of propaganda would contravene NPOV and none of the images manage to avoid this as they are sourced from either Fascist or Nazi official sources. Ideally a non-propagandistic photo should be found but that seems unlikely. If not C, then I would favour F (the pose corresponds to a school photo of 14-year-old Mussolini who was not a fascist yet). A and D are the worst offenders, both project an image of a visionary statesman and D is from the Nazi press targeting occupied Europe. The "jawsplaying" and the effect of emerging from a dark background in A is standard Mussolini visual self-promotion. VampaVampa (talk) 23:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
• B2 As the highest quality and resolution version available. Curbon7 (talk) 23:52, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  I think the status quo is also acceptable. It's fine enough for now. Curbon7 (talk) 21:06, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

References

• B or D: Both seems to be offical portraits, with one adding colour a part of history we only see in black and white. Cossde (talk) 15:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Here's my tally of the vote so far.

A-Pincrete, Nemov, Shadow4dark, Traumnovelle, Trakking

B/D-Cossde, SMcCandlish, Rjensen, Emiya1980

B2-Curbon7

C : VampaVampa, Alex2006, ალექსანდროს

F : MaximusEditor

Emiya1980 (talk) 21:06, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Consensus is not determined by counting votes per WP:CON. Nemov (talk) 21:12, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

To second what Nemov said, it would be more useful to have a shortlist of arguments advanced in favour or against each. VampaVampa (talk) 23:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

If you look above,arguments have already been advanced for each position. Emiya1980 (talk) 23:57, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps they ought to be addressed each in its turn for a consensus to be reached. That is why I suggested bringing them together for easier reference. VampaVampa (talk) 05:24, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

C or F, concurring with VampaVampa that they are the least 'propagandised' images from an NPOV perspective. AlexandraAVX (talk) 20:05, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

As previously indicated by Szmenderowiecki, Choices (E) and (F) have failed to gain much traction since this Rfc was opened over 3 weeks ago. For this reason, I have removed them from the range of choices available in order to help bring this debate to a conclusion. With that being said, please set forth which image option you prefer below.

• 
  A (Current Image)
• 
  B
• 
  B2
• 
  C
• 
  D

Emiya1980 (talk) 16:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Since, my original vote "F" was removed, I suppose I would just say to stick with the current pic, any picture would honestly due. MaximusEditor (talk) 00:47, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

@Pincrete, VampaVampa, AlexandraAVX, Curbon7, MaximusEditor, Cossde, SMcCandlish, Rjensen, Nemov, Shadow4dark, Traumnovelle, Alessandro57, Generalrelative, ალექსანდროს, Nick.mon, Yakme, Anteosaurus magnificus, HangingCurve, Rrburke, Anthony22, A.S. Brown, Barjimoa, M. Armando, Beyond My Ken, DrKay, Lightiggy, Spf121188, Gennarous, R-41, Shanes, John, Kinneyboy90, Mkpumphrey, Kurt Leyman, Conte di Cavour, Nick Graves, LahmacunKebab, Attilios, and Mvaldemar: See above.Emiya1980 (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Please stop pinging me. There's sufficient support for the status quo to close this RFC and save everyone the time. Nemov (talk) 17:11, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, on both counts. As I stated above, I don't have any strong opinions on the matter, but A is fine. It looks like all the available images are less than ideal in one way or another, and we're not approaching an alternative consensus here. I say close as "no consensus" and keep the status quo for the time being. Generalrelative (talk) 18:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Generalrelative You have the right to vote for the status quo. However, in light of the number of editors who have voice opinions in opposition to it, closing the Rfc would be premature. Emiya1980 (talk) 18:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Nemov Your opinion has already been noted. Now do me a favor and shut up. Emiya1980 (talk) 18:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

My last two comments were after you pinged me. It would be wise of you to strike this comment. Nemov (talk) 19:02, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

You first, Nemov.Emiya1980 (talk) 19:28, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Um, no, you were irrationally and grossly uncivil to Nemov, for no reason. Nemov has nothing to strike or apologize for, having simply asked you to stop pinging, which is a reasonable request.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:04, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I had wanted to avoid discussing this issue any further on this page. However, seeing as how yet another editor has seen fit to pile on, I see I have little choice but to address the issue directly. The comment I made to which you are referring (while admittedly rude) did not arise in a vacuum. On at least two prior instances, Nemov has openly accused me in the middle of an Rfc thread of wasting other editors’ time while trying to solicit opinions toward a consensus (see the ongoing Rfc on Frederick the Great’s talk page for more evidence). Based on my reading of the essay on civility, such comments are not in accord with its guidelines on politeness and courtesy either. While I admit to the uncivil nature of my prior comment on this page, Nemov (and any other editor taking his side for that matter) should take his comments into consideration before leaping to judgment against me as the only one deserving of correction. Emiya1980 (talk) 23:43, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

To all other viewers of the thread, I apologize for the argument between myself and Nemov above. Since it only serves to disrupt the Rfc, I have already attempted to strike it but have been prohibited from doing so. Feel free to post your opinions and any objections you may have to the Rfc on this thread. However, please avoid personal attacks or other examples of incivility. For purposes of this Rfc, I think it would be constructive for everyone to take this into account. Thank you.Emiya1980 (talk) 21:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

You are free to strike your own comments, Emiya1980. Generalrelative (talk) 21:26, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I have nothing more to say regarding this matter, Generalrelative. Please confine all future comments on this thread to those relevant to the Rfc. Thank you. Emiya1980 (talk) 21:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

For the record, I am not opposed to the status quo picture, it being among one of my acceptable versions, even if I somewhat prefer another.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:04, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

SMcCandlish So you prefer A over the other options presented?Emiya1980 (talk) 01:39, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Try actually reading what I wrote, maybe? How was I somewhat prefer another unclear? Repeat: Prefer D since it's in color, is sensibly illustrative, and not contrived or weird like E. After that, probably A, C, B, E in decreasing order. It's not necessary for you in particular to understand personally which version someone else prefers and to keep trying to enumerate them. That kind of activity at an RfC is not helpful or constructive. It is the role of the closer to assess the consensus level of the available options (though it's rather obvious this will be "no consensus" at this point and thus default to the status quo.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:25, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I did read what you wrote. Your post was ambiguous. It sounded like you were voting for the status quo notwithstanding your prior preferences to the contrary. Any objective editor looking to close would find such clarification helpful in that regard. Emiya1980 (talk) 22:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

• A or C, but I see no strong rationale for changing the status quo. I specifically reject B and B2 as inferior in quality. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:41, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
• @Stephen Burnett, Lacatosias, RedRabbit1983, Onorem, Tri Ardiansyah, YellowMonkey, Improv, Ian Spackman, and Brothernight: Please indicate which of the images listed above you would prefer as the infobox picture for Benito Mussolini. Your contribution towards any of the aforementioned choices would be appreciated. Thank you.Emiya1980 (talk) 18:05, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

@Rich Farmbrough, Utcatdad, Scolaire, DancingPhilosopher, Ittahad-Man, Sein und Zeit, and Cmguy777: See above.Emiya1980 (talk) 18:17, 15 June 2024 (UTC)M

@Director, MauroVan, Xianxxx, Carl.bunderson, Pistolpierre, and Kelisi:Emiya1980 (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

@Enok, Cberlet, Lucifero4, Jpgordon, and Dahn:Emiya1980 (talk) 19:54, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Whichever you dislike; this mass pinging is distasteful. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 20:58, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I do not know why I have been pinged. But the best image, imo, is the current image A. It's a close-up, and not wearing a hat. You see his whole face. Mussolini looks intimidating. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:15, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Nor do I, and A will do fine.Kelisi (talk) 19:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

There is a serious reason to change the status quo image, which is that it contravenes the policy on the neutral point of view - or are images exempt from it? As explained above with reference to a reliable source, options A and D speak the visual language of the Mussolini regime. Each of them asserts - either explicitly (original caption for D) or implicitly (scholarly interpretation of A) - that Mussolini was a visionary statesman. Such a notion obviously does not prevail in current scholarship. The status quo image, if it is to have a place in the article, needs a caption informing of its propaganda message. VampaVampa (talk) 09:50, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

VampaVampa makes a good point. There has already been a good deal of discussion among editors about avoiding the use of propagandistic or otherwise flattering portraits as lede images for Nazis. If we're going to apply such a standard to leaders of the Third Reich, it makes little sense to use a flattering portrait in the lede for the likes of Mussolini, a mass-murdering dictator and a Nazi collaborator. In my opinion, A and both versions of B are the worst offenders in this regard. Both (to varying degrees) depict Mussolini as he wanted to be seen: an overlord and messiah worthy of fear and/or adoration by the masses. Conversely, while there was undoubtedly a propagandistic purpose behind its creation, D's nature as a tool designed to glorify its subject matter is significantly less pronounced thereby making the image more open to interpretation by an objective viewer. While one could argue it depicts Mussolini as a mighty general ready to take on the world, one could likewise argue it merely depicts him as a megalomaniacal despot trying to look tough in military garb. With that being said, C is probably the most objective of the portrayals listed above.Emiya1980 (talk) 18:53, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

D merely depicts him as a megalomaniacal despot trying to look tough in military garb - I think you hit the nail on its head with regard to D here, and helped me realise the limitation of my argument. In assessing appropriateness one needs to take today's perceptions into account. Photo D, while designed to be a piece of blatant propaganda, has not aged well - to the point of looking cartoonish. That could be a argument in favour of D - it is at once official and unflattering by today's standards. By contrast, A still has a positive appeal to the contemporary viewer and should be opposed all the more. I can't figure out B, but while grim it is likely to exert uncritical fascination. VampaVampa (talk) 20:20, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I certainly understand your point and agree with it to an extent, but I think you're leaning on it a bit too hard. We should strive to use the best quality image that is most representative of the subject, while also keeping due weight in mind. We do often use images for figures which are rooted in propaganda, like c:File:Che Guevara - Guerrillero Heroico by Alberto Korda.jpg and c:File:Mao Zedong in 1959 (cropped).jpg; in the opposite vein, we avoid c:File:Kim Il Sung Portrait-3.jpg because even though it is a famous image it is wildly inaccurate to how he actually looked. Curbon7 (talk) 22:24, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

@Curbon7: Even applying the standard of "best quality image", the status quo image falls short though. Almost half of Mussolini's head is shrouded in shadow, obscuring his profile. Both C and D are better-quality images.Emiya1980 (talk) 19:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Well yes I was just speaking in general about the neutrality point. Curbon7 (talk) 20:49, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, if Che Guevara and Mao Zedong articles use propaganda images, I think that is an argument to change them. I appreciate that you found those examples, I am baffled that Che Guevara would be depicted in the most cliched way possible on Wikipedia - that is not an informative image for an encyclopedia to use, unless the subject is propaganda or perceptions of the subject. There is a much better realistic image of Guevara in another section of that article.

In general I think it would be counterproductive for the participants in this RfC to spend time reflecting on the possible options in this discussion only to default to a usage based on popularity. VampaVampa (talk) 15:17, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

@VampaVampa: I don't think it's necessary to make an argument in favor of changing the lede images for Che Guevara and Mao Zedong on top of Mussolini. While it is true the images used for said articles were originally created for propaganda purposes, they are nonetheless good-quality images and do not significantly alter how the figures appeared in real life for the sake of enhancing their standing. Conversely, the present image of Benito Mussolini fails on both counts. Not only is it an image of inferior quality to the other choices presented, it partly obscures Mussolini's profile for the sake of lending him an otherworldly, messianic mystique. The combination of such factors make this one of the worst possible image choices for the lede.Emiya1980 (talk) 21:47, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

• D > B2 > B1 > A > C > E > F. The photo should be front-facing, well-exposed and ideally less contrived-feeling where possible (per SMcCandlish). I prefer the uniform to not. This is all ultimately just weighted preferences, because none of them is perfect on all fronts, but the coloured photo achieves best on most factors. — HTGS (talk) 22:25, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
• A Still looks best as formal portrait, he does not wear uniform and the picture it not heavy cutted. Shadow4dark (talk) 11:25, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
• A is fine for the same reasons it was introduced years and years ago by us Olds ;). It's the official portrait as Prime Minister (i.e. the highest actual office), it's good quality, the mug is well displayed, etc etc. The current suggestions do not depict more of said mug, but less. I will also add that piling on 16 alternatives alongside the "incumbent" is perhaps a bit WP:GAMEY: should have proposed a change (itc an alternative portrait) and let contributors weight it up against the status quo, but ok.. Director (talk) 03:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.