Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Emperor's New School/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 27 December 2019 [1].

The Emperor's New School edit

Nominator(s): Aoba47 (talk) 08:41, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone! This article is about a television spin-off to the 2000 movie The Emperor's New Groove. It aired for two seasons from 2006 to 2008 on the Disney Channel. In it, Kuzco is required to attend the public high school, Kuzco Academy, before he can become the emperor of the Inca Empire. Episodes use physical comedy and often break the fourth wall. Although the critical response was mixed, the cast did receive awards and nominations for their work. I would greatly appreciate any recommendations to improve the article. Thank you in advance! Aoba47 (talk) 08:41, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by FrB.TG edit

"In it, Kuzco is required to attend" - this reads too sudden in my opinion. I suggest rewording it to something along the lines of "The show centers on the character Kuzco who is required to attend".

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 21:11, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for fixing my above edit for this. Aoba47 (talk) 21:37, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"disguises herself as the school's principal in an attempt to cause him to fail his classes so she can become empress herself" - by "herself" I assume that they are both competing against each other for the same thing - an emperor (male or female). Is that the case here?

I have removed "herself". The word "empress" is always used in connection to the character "Yzma" as opposed to "emperor" with "Kuzco". I hope that makes sense. Aoba47 (talk) 21:11, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"It was the first television series to have a debut across these four platforms; it was" - to avoid "it was... it was" I suggest replacing the second "it" with an "and".

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 21:11, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The Emperor's New School received a mixed response; Malina's representation was one criticism" - I would like to see what aspects of the show received positive response.

There were a few points that received praise (the transition from film to television, the animated backgrounds, the humor, and the voice acting), but I am uncertain about putting these points into the lead because they were made by individual commentators and would not necessarily reflect a consensus from an overall critical commentary. I included the Malina criticism in the lead for instance because it was brought in two reviews. However, I would be more than happy to add something to the lead about the positive response, but I just wanted to explain my perspective first. I could be completely wrong. Aoba47 (talk) 21:27, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Jeanne Spreier, writing for The Dallas Morning News, said the show based its humor in one-line jokes" - shouldn't this be based "on"?

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 21:11, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"According to Disney Channels' Worldwide president Gary Marsh" - this should be Disney Channels Worldwide's president in my opinion.

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 21:11, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The Walt Disney Company first approached Gannaway about the series "a few years" after" - I am failing to understand the significance of "a few years" being in quotes.

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 22:05, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More to come. FrB.TG (talk) 20:03, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments so far, and apologies for some of the silly mistakes in the article. Hope you had an awesome Halloween and have a great start to your weekend. Aoba47 (talk) 21:27, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I read through the rest of the article, and don't have anything else to quibble about. This is a nice work. Support. FrB.TG (talk) 19:34, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the support and the review. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your weekend. Aoba47 (talk) 20:22, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Source review - spotchecks not done

Some of the details in the infobox, for example the credit for Scharlach, don't appear to be cited anywhere

Revised. I believe that everything should be cited now. Aoba47 (talk) 18:15, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the release details remain unsourced. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:19, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am assuming you are referring to the picture and audio format parts? I just want to double-check first. Aoba47 (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed those bits of information as I cannot find a third-party citation for it. Aoba47 (talk) 18:35, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FN2: date doesn't match source

Are you refraining to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette citation? From what I can see the date in the article (January 26, 2006) already matches the date in the source (January 26, 2006). Aoba47 (talk) 18:08, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source says January 25. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:19, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have checked the source again, and I do not see where it says January 25. Under the byline (at least on my end), it says (JAN 26, 2006). Aoba47 (talk) 18:49, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Very odd - definitely says January 25 under the byline on my side. Perhaps it adjusts based on local time. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:16, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is very strange. Next to the date, it has the time (12:00 AM) on my end. Does it have a different time for you? What would you recommend that I do for this? Apologies for all the back-and-forth on my part, and thank you again for the help. Aoba47 (talk) 23:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, it is a time-zone issue - mine gives 11PM. Let's just leave as-is. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:26, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the response. I will definitely make sure to remember this for the future. Aoba47 (talk) 23:27, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FN5: should include page number, and is this an authorized publication?

I believe that Animation Magazine is an authorized and reliable source. I have added the page numbers. Aoba47 (talk) 18:08, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to the republication on Scribd. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:19, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should be fine, but I have replaced the citation style with the one for journals and took out the url to avoid this. Aoba47 (talk) 18:26, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FN14 should include agency

Is there any particular reason why the agency should be cited here? I was just wondering because I do not cite the agency for any of the other newspaper sources in the article. Aoba47 (talk) 18:16, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If there are other cases where there is an agency, it should also be included. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:19, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am really confused by this. I have never had to cite agencies when using newspaper citations in previous FACs. Is there any particular reason why this is necessary? I hope that I do not sound rude, but I was just curious about this because it was different from my prior FAC experiences. Aoba47 (talk) 18:41, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In the case of FN14, the agency credit stands in place of the author credit in providing appropriate attribution. More broadly, technically the documentation for {{cite news}} states it should be included when different from work and publisher, although when there's an author named I tend not to fuss with it. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:16, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the explanation. That makes perfect sense to me. I have added the publication agency to the citation. Apologies for the confusion on my part. Aoba47 (talk) 23:22, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FN15 should italicize work title

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 18:08, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FN16: page?

I used the preview from the following GoogleBooks source, which does not use page numbers. Aoba47 (talk) 18:08, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In that case suggest including a location parameter. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:19, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What is a location parameter? Aoba47 (talk) 18:26, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Never mind, the book does not use page numbers, but it does include an index that has the page numbers so I was able to locate it and add it to the article. Aoba47 (talk) 18:37, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FN19: La is part of the surname, not given name. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:49, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Corrected. Aoba47 (talk) 18:08, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: Thank you for your review! I believe that I have addressed everything. Apologies for some of the silly mistakes. Have a great rest of your weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 18:17, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: Apologies for the second ping. Just wanted to make sure you knew that I responded to your points. I am only confused by two points (the publication for Reference 2 and the publication agency inclusion). Thank you again! Aoba47 (talk) 20:34, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Kailash edit

This article is in amazing shape, so I won't have many comments. Here are some for a start:

Though I prefer "show" over series, I still think "show" is informal.

Just wanted to check before making changes. Would you prefer if I replaced all the instances of "show" with "series"? Aoba47 (talk) 16:38, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The lead says the series received mixed reviews, but the "Critical reception" doesn't use the word "mixed". Please maintain consistency.--Kailash29792 (talk) 05:04, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 16:38, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I have no further comment. I'm pretty sure there are other guys to do proofreading. Also, please consult with others whether "show" needs to be replaced with "series". It was just my personal view, in the way that "movie" is often discouraged in favour of "film". --Kailash29792 (talk) 03:18, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the support. I will go through the article shortly and replace the "show" instances with "series". I do not have a preference either way, but I understand your point and I might as well do it anyway. Let me know if you need any help with any of your projects. Aoba47 (talk) 05:00, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Moise edit

Hi Aoba. Overall, there's quite a bit of good content and writing in the article, and is within reach of FA quality. Some comments:

"Malina's representation was one criticism". Not sure about use of "criticism" here. Maybe "one thing that was criticized".

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 17:00, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Would be nice to have more variety of sentence structures in the second and especially the third paragraph of the lead. Currently there are a lot of subject-verb-object sentences so it feels a little choppy.

I have attempted to fix this, but please let me know if further revision is necessary.

"However, episodes focus more on Kuzco learning life lessons". Here I'd suggest something other than "episodes". Maybe "the series" or "the story arc" or such.

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 17:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The second half of the first paragraph of "Premise and characters" could also benefit from more variety of sentence structure. The last four sentences are all s-v-o and the last two start with "Her".

I have attempted to revise this, but please let me know if more works is needed. Aoba47 (talk) 17:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Despite their strained relationship". Maybe this needs to be qualified. How is it strained?

I have removed it as I think the "contrasting lifestyles" part covers it. Aoba47 (talk) 17:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"In one instance, Pacha trains Kuzco for a physical education class". I wasn't sure if this was meant to be an example of "school projects". If so, I'm not sure that a physical education class would normally be considered a school project. But if this is not meant to be an example of a school project, and is just another way that Pacha helps Kuzco, then OK.

It was meant to be an example of one of the school projects. I have changed it to "school assignments" to hopefully address that. Aoba47 (talk) 17:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"and is one of the few characters who scolds him about his attitude". Is it clear by this part of the main text how his attitude is bad? (I didn't see it but I may have missed it.) If not, maybe this needs to be clarified for the reader here.

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 17:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Other supporting characters include the Royal Records Keeper and Mr. Moleguaco". The reader can probably imagine to a degree what the role of the Royal Records Keeper might be, but is there anything that would be worthwhile to mention here about Mr. Moleguaco?

Clarified. Aoba47 (talk) 17:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Although it is a sequel, Kuzco retains his narcissistic personality, causing some critics to associate him with the phrase "it's all about me". It's not clear to me the relationship between "Although it is a sequel" and "Kuzco retains his narcissistic personality", nor why "it's all about me" is relevant to the question of sequels.

That is a good point. I removed the "it's all about me" part. It was a slogan from the first film so it is not important for this article. However, I do think it is beneficial to mention how Kuzco's character development was ignored for the series, and I have tried to revise that part to better address it. I have seen a few people question how the show could be a sequel since it ignores this plot line from the film completely while also making casual references to the film. Continuity-wise, it is very weird. Please let me know what you think though. Aoba47 (talk) 18:22, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"However, the show does include reference to the original film". I'm not sure this works well as is. There's one example before this of the ending of the film being ignored, but I don't think readers are going to assume none of the story points in the film were kept. So it probably goes without saying that there is going to be some coherency between the film and TV series. Maybe you can salvage this last sentence of the paragraph but I'm not sure the exact best angle for it; also, if you do keep it, maybe flesh out what "Kronk's spinach puffs" refers to.

To be fair, there are two examples before that sentence (the Yzma being human part as the second one), but I think the main issue is with the transition being too strong. I have tried to revise this pat to be clearer, but please let me know what you think. I think it is beneficial to note what elements/gags were kept in the show. Aoba47 (talk) 18:22, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More comments to follow. Moisejp (talk) 07:11, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review. Apologies for the silly mistakes. I still have a lot to learn about being a better writer, but your reviews always make the articles stronger. Hopefully, I can grow more as a writer in the future. Hope you are having a great weekend so far. Aoba47 (talk) 18:22, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Consider shaking up the last two sentences of the lead, which feel a bit stale. This is what I came up with, although I don't know for sure that it's a big improvement (maybe if I had more time I could come up with something better, but unfortunately I don't): "The Emperor's New School received some critical praise, as well as Annie and Daytime Emmy Awards for its cast and crew; negative reviews mentioned elements including sexist objectification of Malina." If you don't like this particular suggestion, maybe at least try to twist the sentences around for a bit of variety in sentence structure. Another option could be to get rid of the last sentence. As it is, we don't find out in the lead whether they were important awards or possibly minor no-name awards. And removing the last sentence would help with the repetitiveness of sentence structure at the end. But if there's a good way to keep mention of the awards (my suggestion above or another way), that could be good too. Moisejp (talk) 04:57, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comment. I was also uncertain about that part as I thought the awards/nominations sentence sounded a little too tacked-on. I have used a variation on your suggestion, but clarified that Kitt was the only one to actually win any awards. Let me know what you think, and thank you again. Aoba47 (talk) 05:06, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Kuzco is often turned into animal by a potion from Yzma's lab so he cannot finish a school assignment." Should it be "animals", "potions", "assignments" in the plural, because it says "often"? Moisejp (talk) 05:00, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. This is a running theme for many many episodes so the plural would be more appropriate. That part was a later addition (to give a better context to the secret lab mentioned later) so I admittedly did not review it as much as I should. Aoba47 (talk) 05:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Kronk is Yzma's henchman, and poses as a student and Kuzco's friends". This means he disguises as multiple friends? It's a bit confusing (I was confused at first). If there's a way to write it so it's clearer, that would be great. Moisejp (talk) 05:02, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The "friends" part was a typo of "friend", but I think it is confusing to add to two descriptives "student" and "friend" so I have consolidated to "Kuzco's classmate", which I think is a more apt description for his paper-thin disguise. Aoba47 (talk) 05:10, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for interrupting your review. I will refrain from editing the article to avoid any potential conflicts and give you the space/time to best review it. Aoba47 (talk) 05:15, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It may just be me, but I don't know what a "heritage property" is in terms of a TV show, and I couldn't find an answer with a very quick Google search (maybe with a little bit longer one I could have, but I gave up soon). Can you wiki-link it to anything, or would you consider rewording it, if possible? Moisejp (talk) 03:16, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The "heritage property" phrase just refers to the fact that this was a spin-off of a pre-existing Disney property. I had originally quoted it as I thought it was noteworthy, but upon further reflection, it does seem quite repetitive as I think that information is already well-established in the article elsewhere so I removed it. Aoba47 (talk) 04:57, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The series is set in a school to emphasize Kuzco's lack of social etiquette." How about something like "The series is set in a school because the writers/creators felt this environment would provide good opportunities to explore Kuzco's lack of social etiquette." I think this would be clearer than just "emphasize". Moisejp (talk) 03:31, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Revised. Your suggestion is far better, and I think I was getting too caught up in going for conciseness in that sentence. Aoba47 (talk) 05:00, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"he said the main difference was it is led by a comedic character, a role usually given to sidekicks". Maybe "supporting character" would be more encyclopedic than "sidekicks", but then you would have "character...character". Could you possibly tell me what Gannaway's exact words were for this bit? The sentence is not so bad as it is, but I feel like maybe it could be made slightly tighter. If you could tell me what he says, I might have ideas. Moisejp (talk) 03:43, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I no longer have access to the full reference. A Scribd user uploaded the entire Animation Magazine issue, and I could access the specific "Out of the Inca Well" article while putting together the article and revising it during the GAN and prior to the FAC. However, I lost access to the entire issue for some reason; I apparently need a Scribd account to view the article. The basic idea of Gannaway's statement was that other animated shows often used supporting characters for the humorous bits while keeping the lead more grounded, and Kuzco was the opposite since he was a comedic character that was the lead. I did struggle a bit with revising this so I would greatly appreciate any suggestions. I could request for the article at the Resource Request if necessary so I can provide the exact quote. Aoba47 (talk) 05:56, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"While Gannaway acknowledged viewers might initially dislike Kuzco because of his attitude". Is there any descriptive word you can add before "attitude" to add precision to what kid of attitude it was? Moisejp (talk) 03:43, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is still referring to the same self-centered/narcisstic aspects discussed earlier. I did not put a descriptor here because I was uncertain if it was getting too repetitive through the article. I have added one though per your suggestion. Aoba47 (talk) 05:14, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"she said singing provided "an added and vital layer" to Yzma". Is there anything more in the source you can add to flesh this point out? It feels a little weak and insubstantial as is.

This is the full quote from the source: ("I loved every minute of singing Yzmopolis. Yzma is a wonderful and exciting character. Being able to give her the added dimension of a singing voice gives my character an added and vital layer. May Yzma sing forever and often!") I think it was notable at the time of drafting and revising the article prior to this FAC, but upon further reflection, I would have no issue with removing it completely if necessary. Just wanted to get your point of view on it before removing it though just to make sure. Aoba47 (talk) 05:18, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I ended up removing this part altogether, as upon further reflection, it seems rather trivial and not necessary for a reader's understanding of the show as a whole. Aoba47 (talk) 02:55, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"It was the first series to debut across these four television platforms". I'm not sure precisely what this means. Does it mean the four TV platforms had previously showed lots of old shows, but this was the first new show that any of them aired? Or does it mean it was the first time that there was a show in common across all four platforms? (Or maybe it means something else?) If you can, would it be possible to clarify this in the text? Moisejp (talk) 03:59, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The four networks did have original programming prior to this show. I would not be surprised if the networks ran the same shows at one point in time. The difference with this is that The Emperor's New School was pushed on all four networks at a similar time rather than premiering on a single network and later being syndicated or shown on other networks as re-runs. That is the impression that I get from the sources as it is referring more to Disney's promotional strategy for the series to maximize its visibility/exposure or run a "super-saturation" campaign as one outlet put it. However, I revised the "first time" part out as I think it is unnecessarily confusing and just kept to how the show debuted on these four networks on these days instead. Aoba47 (talk) 05:56, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The series was part of Toon Disney's "Great Toon Weekend" programming block in January 2007." Feels weak and likely removable. But if you'd rather keep it, may I suggest in the previous paragraph just after where the times/days shown are listed.

Removed. Aoba47 (talk) 05:24, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please consider whether the order of the points in these two paragraphs could be improved. They seem to jump around a lot. For example, "Each episode runs for 30 minutes[7][9] and carries a "suitable for all ages" TV-G parental rating." feels out of place, as what comes before and after it is about the days/times/dates when it was aired. Moisejp (talk) 04:08, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is a good point. I have attempted to revise the section to flow more cohesively, but let me know if further work needs to be done. Aoba47 (talk) 05:37, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to look at the Reception section in the next few days. Cheers, Moisejp (talk) 04:10, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Although he disliked the series, author David Perlmutter spotlighted Kitt and Warburton for their performances". I'm not sure whether "spotlighted" is correct here, but if you're sure it is, please keep it. (I'm not saying it necessarily isn't okay, just saying I don't know, so just be sure for yourself you're certain it's good.)

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 20:07, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"he was also uncertain that the school setting could sustain a series without growing monotonous". This sounds more like a question than a criticism. It sounds like this writer was speculating early in the series that future episodes might not be interesting. I haven't read the source, but depending on what the source says, maybe the nuance can be changed to something conveying that the early episodes were only mildly interesting, and then put what you wrote as kind of an after-point. Again, I don't know if that's what she says (sorry, I don't have time to read the source right now). Or if there's not much to work with on this point in the source, I guess just decide for yourself whether what you currently have for this point is strong enough for the criticism paragraph; I don't have a really strong opinion, and feel it could maybe go either way.

Removed. After re-reading the article, it is more speculation on the writer's part as opposed to criticism. Here is the part from the source regarding this: "While the opening episode packs plenty of punch, it will be interesting to see how far Gannaway can stretch the series' rather basic plot about Kuzco's efforts to graduate through numerous episodes without getting stale and repetitive." Aoba47 (talk) 20:07, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"a focal point of Common Sense Media's Pam Gelman". Maybe "a focal point of Common Sense Media's Pam Gelman's review" would be better.

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 20:09, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Malina's figure-hugging clothing emphasizes her attractiveness over her intelligence". Would it be worthwhile to spell out just a little more explicitly why this is considered bad? I understand what you mean, but maybe if it was a little more explicitly explained, it would be all the clearer.

Revised to hopefully be clearer. Aoba47 (talk) 20:09, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've finished my second read-through. I'll try to do a quick third read-through in the next couple of days and address at that time any remaining questions you had in response to my last batch of comments. Thanks, Moisejp (talk) 18:12, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review so far. Aoba47 (talk) 20:09, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I read MacPherson's review, and it's mostly quite positive. It may be misleading to include her comment about a minor confusing point in the paragraph that begins with "Some critics had a negative response to the series." I hope it doesn't sound like I'm telling you to cut, cut, cut everything, but if it was me, this MacPherson bit is another sentence I would strongly consider cutting.

I have removed the sentence. It is best to avoid misrepresenting the source in any way so I agree that removing it is important. Aoba47 (talk) 14:48, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Awards and nominations sections feels a bit repetitive (repetitive sentence order, and the same awards names repeated multiple times). It's all summarized in the table below anyway, so I'd like to suggest you can trim to the prose. How would you feel about combining the two Annie Awards sentences into one, removing unnecessary details (maybe like the specific episodes), and is there a way to get rid of the final "35th Daytime Emmy Awards" in the last sentence? Or (*actually I think this might be an even better idea) another way to condense might be to combine all of Kitt's awards into one sentence at the start (again, hopefully finding unnecessary details to leave out). Then maybe you could find a way to combine Warburton's, Parkins', and DiCicco's nominations into a succinct second sentence. Moisejp (talk) 07:19, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have cut down on that section. The table was a late addition. Aoba47 (talk) 14:48, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm ready to support now. Looks good. Moisejp (talk) 06:51, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for taking the time to do this review and for your patience with everything. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your week. Aoba47 (talk) 15:35, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Kingsif edit

The lead looks fine, perhaps a little long. It could use more diversity in sentence, but (after one typo correction) seems to be written well.

Thank you. I could try to trim the lead down, but I would be uncertain of which parts would be best removed. Aoba47 (talk) 18:26, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I will leave this up to you. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have gone through the lead to cut back somewhat, but I am open to further suggestions by you and other reviewers. Aoba47 (talk) 20:43, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence On his birthday, he learns about this educational requirement of his trust fund and is evicted from the palace. Seems awkward – could this be rephrased?

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 18:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Great, this works well now. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, to prevent him from graduating and become empress is a little strange – it could be “to prevent him from graduating so she can become empress”

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 18:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also good :) Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

With the sentence Although it is a sequel, Kuzco retains his narcissistic personality, causing some critics to associate him with the phrase "it's all about me, how are the two parts related? Why would his characterization change in a sequel? Is there more from the source to associate these?

I had revised this section based on a reviewer's comments above so I think it is addressed. Aoba47 (talk) 18:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is clear now, thanks. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

At the end of which film (New Groove or Kronk) is Yzma turned into a cat? It’s not clear to those who know nothing.

Same as the above. Aoba47 (talk) 18:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, great. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does Speier at any point relate the American high school setting with the fact it’s sent in Incan times? That would be useful to mention with her initial comments at the bottom of the premise and characters section.

She does not; she just says that the show has very American attributes. Aoba47 (talk) 18:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's ok, then - we don't want to turn it into OR. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No cast section? Not even an overview with wikilinks to the pages?

I honestly see no reason for including a cast section. All of the information about the characters and cast members are already laid out in the "Premise and characters" section and "Production" section, respectively, so I think it would be rather repetitive. I have done a similar approach to my other FACs on television show articles. Aoba47 (talk) 18:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If it works - and there were only two seasons on a kidcom, so a cast table wouldn't add a lot. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think the word “another” adds any value to …developed The Emperor's New School as "another heritage property" for its television scheduling. I’m not sure quotation marks need to be used at all.

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Great Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Needs some consistency in tense at the end of the first paragraph in Production – saying the directors “are” vs. the writers “were”; pick one.

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Not sure if others will pick up on the present tense when it's definitively over (not still writing/directing; continuous present used for plot), I might ask if it is fine. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is a good point that I did not consider. It is always good to ask for a second or third opinion. I actually think past tense would make more sense so I have adjusted it. Thank you for that. Aoba47 (talk) 20:45, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In Production, the word ters is used. What is this supposed to be?

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Teachers - thanks. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The clause saying …he attributed the main difference to it having a comedic character as the lead rather than a sidekick is bizarre; perhaps it could be more simply “…he described the main difference as being lead by a comedic character, a role usually given to sidekicks.”

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - I feel I should expand on why I picked this up: the first part ("attributed the main difference to it having") was grammatically all over the place, and didn't fit with the preceding clause. It could be understood, but stood out and needed re-reading. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, and that makes sense to me. Aoba47 (talk) 20:46, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The cast notes could get at least their own subsection in Production, as it’s otherwise a bit of a jump.

I do not think a subsection is necessary, but I will think about it. Aoba47 (talk) 19:01, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 19:06, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I like what you've done, breaking the whole article up. I will leave comments on whether headers are apt to others. It helps with flow, and somewhat consolidates casting and characterization (not characters) in one place (rather than spread across all sections). Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Echoing others’ comments, the writing style for the Reception section is quite basic.

I am not entirely sure whar you mean. Could you be more specific? Aoba47 (talk) 19:24, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think I expanded a bit more below. The sentence structure is simple and repeated, and little has been done to create flow from each to the next. It's more like a list of who has reviewed it and a comment. If style could be improved - changing up structure, use of connectives, expanding the comments to give a description of the review, it would be much better.

Thank you for the explanation. That makes sense to me. I always had difficulty with these kinds of sections. I will work on that now, and will revisit the sources to see if there is any additional information I can mine from them. I will respond here when I am done with that copy-edit. Aoba47 (talk) 20:48, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I also think that the Critical reception could use an introduction summarizing the breadth of reviews before the paragraphs (which are split just down positive vs negative)

Could you give an example of what you mean? The reviews touch on a lot of different points, and I cannot see a single common theme that could be used as an introductory sentence without WP:SYNTH concerns. Aoba47 (talk) 19:01, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing so much to SYNTH as just a sentence saying "There were several reviews, with critics highlighting both good and bad aspects of the show." Because at the moment, the first sentence in the section reads that it got positive reviews, without indication that it also got negative ones until the reader reaches that paragraph. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see. I misread your suggestion. Apologies for that. I will incorporate that suggestion during my copy-edit of that section. Aoba47 (talk) 20:48, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I’m also surprised there’s not more depth to review coverage – do the critics not discuss certain elements, and if there are some common themes (beyond the already-included Malina criticism), could they be important to include? I point to other GA+ television show reception sections for reference, they are generally much more extensive than a list of “X from Y thought it was good and said ‘Z’.” Wikivoice can also be used to discuss what critics say rather than just quote them.

Not really. There is not a common theme in the positive reviews. The only common theme that I could see in the negative reviews was that it was inferior to the film. Aoba47 (talk) 18:47, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That could be potentially written into a paragraph. Any other things from individual reviews could be used to expand it. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Would an awards table be beneficial?

I do not think so because everything is addressed in the prose, and I do not think there were enough awards to warrant a table. Aoba47 (talk) 18:43, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As long as the prose reads clear enough to you. Remembering that a table is an added illustration, not a replacement. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does the doodle image add anything to the article? The only thing I can think of is art style (because doodle on lined paper is quite easy to picture) – at which point it should be moved to the more appropriate section.

I think the picture helps the reader understand what is being referenced beyond the prose. While the idea of a doodle on lined paper could be easy to picture, I think it is helpful to include the image to show the art style to the reader. I have included in its present position because it is by the paragraph about these recurring gags. I do not know what you mean by "the more appropriate section"? Aoba47 (talk) 18:46, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll just remove it altogether. Aoba47 (talk) 19:10, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My suggestion would have been to move it to the section on the art style; the idea of a schtick where the character doodles is clear, and the image wasn't needed to illustrate that. The art style, yes, and I think that's covered in production. But I also concur that it may have been one image too many for a shorter article. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Without doing a source review, I think there are definitely areas for quite substantial work. Has this had a peer review before? For a Disney, U.S., television show, the article seems to not have as much coverage as I would expect, either. Kingsif (talk) 17:52, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I really never use the peer review process because I honestly never get a response. I feel like the peer review process is very hit or miss. This is a Disney show, but it was never a high-profile one in the same way as a Lizzie McGuire or a Hannah Montana. I am pretty positive that I have found a majority (if not all) of the sources that cover this show. Aoba47 (talk) 18:26, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well then I can't argue with that; there may be more coverage soon now that the U.S. has got Disney+, but if that's all the sources, that's all the sources! Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I will do another search once I get the reception section copy-edit done just to make sure. There may be more coverage given the Disney+ launch, and I will be inventive with my search parameters to make sure I can catch as much as possible in case anything slipped through the cracks. Aoba47 (talk) 20:50, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review so far. I believe that I have commented on everything. Have a great rest of your weekend. Aoba47 (talk) 18:48, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the quick responses! Comments added above, but most of my original comments had been addressed well. Have a nice weekend, too. Kingsif (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review so far. I have tried to revise the reception section, but let me know if more work is needed. I have also added an awards/nominations table to the article. I could not find any additional reviews while doing another search.

I will give it a read later! Kingsif (talk) 23:20, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Aoba47: I gave the section a little ce, but it was much better, well done! I now support Kingsif (talk) 12:49, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. The c/e and support are greatly appreciated. Aoba47 (talk) 18:19, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I do have a quick question. The show had an official website that had mini-games, photos, videos, downloads, a way to e-mail the characters, and a quiz. I think this information should be included in an article, but I am having trouble accessing the site. Since it is no longer active, I had to user a website archiver; fortunately, the website has been archived quite a bit, but all of the viable links redirect to this page about having the current version of Flash. I was wondering if you had any insight about this, as this is far outside my area of expertise? Here is the link to the original site. Apologies for the super random question. Aoba47 (talk) 22:26, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't know; have details of the website been covered in news or even an official Disney release or blog? If not, you can only really use an archive link as primary source to sat 'this used to exist'... Kingsif (talk) 23:20, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I do not believe the website was covered by any third-party websites or an official Disney press release. I was thinking of using the link directly as the primary source. Do you think that would be okay? Aoba47 (talk) 00:26, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a bit about it to the article. Otherwise, I think I have found all the available sources for the show. Aoba47 (talk) 00:56, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

Images are all appropriately licensed, formatted and captioned. FrB.TG (talk) 22:05, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the review! Aoba47 (talk) 22:14, 22 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@FrB.TG: @Aoba47: FYI, I have replaced the logo image (link) in the infobox, which had been uploaded by Aoba47, with a high-resolution version I just uploaded to Commons. The text-only logo is too simple to meet the threshold of originality under American copyright law and thus it's public domain. —BLZ · talk 02:22, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support by BLZ edit

I'm starting a review at Aoba47's request. We've worked together before but, for the record to any other interested parties, I prefer to directly copyedit articles myself and then explain the rationale for some of my changes here, in addition to making recommendations or asking questions. If any edits I make don't seem like improvements, or if my reasoning for a change is mistaken, feel free to let me know here and we can work through it. So far I've looked at the lead, which I'll give another run-through after I've read the rest in-depth:

Thank you for the copy-edits so far! I will go through your comments so far individually if that is okay with you just so that all of the changes/edits are saved correctly. Aoba47 (talk) 03:29, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

I think "spin-off of" is the most natural phrasing (better than "from" or "to").

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 03:29, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tiny change, but the addition of a comma in "January 27, 2006, to November 20, 2008". MOS:DATEFORMAT specifies "A comma follows the year unless followed by other punctuation that replaces the comma"—which personally I think looks odd but that's what it calls for.

I have removed the comma. Aoba47 (talk) 03:31, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, my bad—I think I worded that in a confusing way. I had already made the revision, I was just giving the reason from the MOS because it's a counterintuitive rule imo. The comma is supposed to be there, according to the MOS. The "other punctuation that replaces the comma" would be, for example, a period or semi-colon as part of the natural flow of the sentence, and that's supposed to be the only exception to the rule that the comma always follows the year in a full date. Like I said, I personally think it's a weird rule. It's comma overdose and doesn't scan naturally, but that's apparently the "correct" way. —BLZ · talk 06:06, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for misreading your comment. I am quite bad at commas so while I agree that it does seem rather odd, it is good to go by the MOS. Thank you for the correction! Aoba47 (talk) 06:18, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added a mention that it's the second spin-off following Kronk's New Groove.

Thank you for catching this. For some reason, I did not think about Kronk's New Groove as a spin-off, but you are correct, and it is note in the article. Aoba47 (talk) 03:32, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added some descriptive language to the summarization of the show's plot, which is supported by the sources and text in the article body, to provide more vivid cues for a reader who may be unfamiliar with the show or its source film. E.g., Kuzco is a "pampered and self-centered teenager", Yzma is "villainous", Kronk is "dim-witted" (a word I've borrowed from the article on Homer Simpson, as I believe it avoids any overly pejorative connotation or suggestions of intellectual disability), etc.

Thank you for these additions. Since I am very familiar with the series, I had some difficulty approaching this from an outsider's point of view, and I think these additions are very helpful with that. Aoba47 (talk) 03:34, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase "his family" seemed somewhat ambiguous—Pacha's or Kuzco's? So I've come up with "the villager Pacha and his peasant family," which is slightly redundant but helps clarify whose family. There may be other, more graceful ways to execute this clarification.

I actually had a similar concern when writing that part so I think your revision improves it. I will try to think of other alternatives, but this seems like the better way of making the information very clear. Aoba47 (talk) 03:36, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As Malina is the show's only major new character and the subject of criticism, I've introduced her as such in a separate sentence rather than listing her in passing with Pacha and fam.

Thank you for the edits. Aoba47 (talk) 03:37, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've explained "temporarily filled" by adding the fact that John Goodman returned for the second season—worth signaling in the lead, given Goodman's level of fame (and actorly excellence).

Good idea. I have also changed this in the body of the article. Aoba47 (talk) 03:37, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Malina was also left out of the cast roll-call, so I added a new sentence mentioning her actor plus guest appearances (Miley Cyrus being particularly worth name-dropping given her subsequent super-fame).

Whoops. Not sure how I missed that. And thank you for the addition of the guest stars in the lead. Aoba47 (talk) 03:39, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've substituted "public high school" with "typical American-style high school". I know the MacPherson article explicitly labels Kuzco Academy a "public high school", but here's why I changed it:

First: "American-style" or "American" would normally be self-explanatory and unnecessary as a label for a "high school" within a US-produced show. But given the far-flung setting—a cartoonish fantasy version of pre-Colombian Peru (or thereabouts)—I think it's worth emphasizing that it does indeed reflect the modern, American conception of high school. If "public" is retained, "American-style" would still help emphasize the intended meaning to an international readership; while the UK uses "secondary school" instead of "high school" anyway, "public school" means the exact opposite thing there as it does in the US, and "public" may have other meanings to other non-American readers.
Regardless, I'd also argue for removing "public". The real-world distinction between "public" and "private" schools doesn't seem relevant or even applicable to a fantasy comedy cartoon for children. It's a detail that seems too realistic and specific to mention, perhaps even if it were an official part of in-universe "canon" (which is not clear). I don't believe MacPherson intended to draw this distinction, at least not to the extent that she was making an argument that it is definitely public and not private or otherwise, and probably meant something closer to "typical", i.e. the depiction of Kuzco Academy embodies all the stereotypical traits/tropes that would be expected of virtually any (fictional) American high school setting (albeit, of course, kid-friendly and wholesome—this isn't Riverdale). Besides, a "typical" American high school would tend to connote a public high school anyway as the overwhelming majority of students attend public schools.

That all makes sense to me. I have added American-style high school to the body of the article to be consistent with the lead, but feel free to remove that if necessary. Aoba47 (talk) 03:41, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've reworded the sentence about the choice of a high school setting, chiefly because the phrase "was chosen in order to facilitate the exploration of" was clunky. I added a bit about how the setting provided for storylines about everyday challenges of adolescence, derived from this in the body: "Spreier noted the storylines dealt with 'the more common problems of adolescence'". This may fit more gracefully elsewhere in the lead—it comes from critical commentary, not creator statements of intention, and while I don't want to confuse the two I do think it is an important point for summary.

I think the current placement in the lead makes sense. It is currently part of the critical commentary, but it is not necessarily part of a critic's praise or critique of the show so I do not think it would fit with the lead's last paragraph. Aoba47 (talk) 03:44, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"social ineptitude" – Are we sure this is the phrase and link we want to use? It redirects to social skills, which treats its subject in a quite serious context that discusses e.g. alcoholism, mental illness, the autism spectrum, etc. You later refer to his "lack of social etiquette", which seems closer to the mark imo although perhaps still vague. I haven't made a change here, but I wanted to raise the issue now and consider it further as I go.

I actually did not check the linked article so that was my fault. I agree that is far too serious for the show and Kuzco's characterization. I have put "lack of social etiquette" for now, but I will also think of different options. Aoba47 (talk) 03:47, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Other thoughts so far

"on the iTunes Store" – I'm a little ambivalent here, but I'm leaning toward thinking it's OK to mention its release via the iTunes Store. I think it's OK to mention Disney+, which is owned and operated by Disney and will presumably carry Emperor's New School and most Disney intellectual property in perpetuity; it's the equivalent of a show being Netflix Original Programming. Ordinarily, though, I wouldn't think it's necessary to name a third-party marketplace—especially in the absence of a known arrangement of exclusivity, as there was with e.g. Guns N' Roses' Chinese Democracy retailing exclusively through Best Buy. However, it is interesting that Emperor's New School does not seem to be available through any other major platforms; it's "currently unavailable" on Google Play, completely absent from Amazon, etc. The show does not seem to have ever been released on DVD (or any other physical media). It also seems probable that Disney's distribution deal with iTunes will expire at some point, since it's widely known that the company is letting its existing distro deals with other streaming services lapse without renewal to achieve true exclusivity through Disney+. That fact actually makes me more inclined to note that the show was downloadable via iTunes, as it soon may be a historical fact: the only place the show had ever been made available before Disney+.

As you had already said above, I included the iTunes store by name in the article because it was the only way that the show could be viewed before Disney's new streaming service as it never got a physical release. It would be a shame if Disney pulled the show from the iTunes store, but people seem to consume television more through streaming now rather than purchasing episodes or seasons. The times have certainly changed and will certainly continue to change. I can understand your concern as I would not want it to come across as advertising. Aoba47 (talk) 03:52, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relevant to the above point: do you know of any source stating that the show was not released on DVD? I feel like it's worth mentioning because the digital release via iTunes is more significant in light of the absence of a DVD release. This is one of those devilish counterfactual facts that is sometimes hard to find stated outright, but I think if there's any reliable basis to mention this it would be worth doing.

That is a good point. For the longest time, I used TVShowsOnDVD.com because it would have entries on television shows without any physical releases and explicitly note that. Unfortunately, that site closed back in 2018, and while a lot of it is available through website archives, I could not find the specific page for this show. I have not been able to find a source about the absence of a DVD release, but as you said, it is more difficult to find a source on the lack of something. I will keep looking though. Aoba47 (talk) 04:01, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A May 2017 article in the animation publication Rotoscopers makes an interesting claim about the show: "Tangled: The Series is the first non-preschool program developed from a Disney feature since the 2006 series The Emperor's New School." I think this is noteworthy, given Disney's aggressive focus on video and TV spin-offs since the early 1990s, and helps mark New School's place within the wider historical timeline of Disney production/content strategy. (The Rotoscopers "About Us" page/masthead shows that, although they are a comparatively small operation, the publication has the type of professional structure of editorial oversight that would qualify them as a WP:RS, imo.) —BLZ · talk 01:48, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the resource. I have added it to the article. Thank you for updating the logo. Aoba47 (talk) 05:05, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Brandt Luke Zorn: Apologies for the ping. Just wanted to check in and see how the review was progressing so far. Thank you again for taking the time to do this. Aoba47 (talk) 21:17, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for the delay, I'm going to resume copyedits now. Some quick thoughts on the next subsection:

No worries. I should be the one apologizing for the ping. There is no rush for the review as it is always best to try and improve the article as much as possible so take all the time you need. Thank you for the copy-edits! Aoba47 (talk) 01:12, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Story and characters

"Kuzco is often transformed into an animal by potions from Yzma's lab" – Is there more on this? It follows from the source text, which says "Yzma often concocts potions in her secret lab that will turn Kuzco into an animal so he will fail a task or school assignment". But that source was published to coincide with the premiere. Are there other sources that would help verify this part of the show? I'd also accept your word for it, since you're familiar with the show's content; I rewatched some of the pilot episode on Friday and I know that it's part of that episode's plot, but I don't really know how typical it is of the show's storylines as a whole. And after all, even if the source was published early they had been probably been given some advance material from Disney that would inform them as to the content of later episodes to give readers an idea of what to expect.

That is a good point. I have looked through the sources again, and I could not find another mention of the potions/animal transformations as a recurring storyline. I had watched a majority of the episodes last year, and from what I can recall, the first season leaned heavily on reusing gags from the film (like the secret lab potions) while the subsequent seasons tried for some more original content/ideas. I have revised the sentence to reflect how this was a recurring plotline in the first seasons (since the source is mostly about the earlier episodes), but please let me know what you think. Aoba47 (talk) 01:21, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do any sources draw the (obvious) connection between this recurrent plot point about being transformed into an animal and the plot of New Groove, which after all is centered on the emperor's transformation into a Llama?

I could not find any sources that drew this comparison. The show does include a line referring back to Kuzco's llama transformation, which is another piece of evidence that this is a sequel, but articles seem to focus more on other elements related to the film, like Kuzco's personality and emperor status. Aoba47 (talk) 03:32, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a source, Aliaga Serrano (2008), because it had a little additional info about Mr. Moleguaco—namely, because it stated the obvious point that the teacher's name is a pun on "guacamole", although there were some additional small points about the characters that I've incorporated from this source.

Thank you for adding the source and information. Apologies for missing this while preparing the article for the GAN and FAC. It is always nice to get more sources to improve an article. Aoba47 (talk) 01:22, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Continuity and style

I think something like "Continuity and humor" or "Continuity and comedic style" might be a better title for this section, since "style" alone might be confused with visual/animation style.

Excellent point. I have used "humor" since it is more concise. Aoba47 (talk) 01:31, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's suggested, but not stated outright, that New School is a sequel to New Groove. I think this should be stated outright for additional clarity, as it's not quite obvious that this is the case. Someone who has seen the film would probably know—to take one reason, Kuzco and Pacha don't know each other at the start of the film, so the show could only be a prequel if both of them suffer memory loss at the end—but the setting and premise ofNew School seems very prequel-ish overall, plus Kuzco seems to be emperor already in New Groove; it's a little confusing why he's trying to earn a position that he already seemed to fully occupy.

This show definitely has a very strange continuity. While I think the episodes are enjoyable, the contradictory premise prevents me from enjoying it as much as other Disney shows. You are right that Kuzco was very much emperor in New Groove, and we even see him doing official duties in the opening song. Unfortunately, there is not a clear answer on why this is happening plot-wise. It is one of the main inconsistencies with the film. I have added a part about the show being a sequel. Oddly enough, a majority of the sources that I found dance around the fact that this is a sequel and just refer to it as a show connected with the film. Seems like critics/commentators were just as confused. Aoba47 (talk) 03:24, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Found a source (Insider.com) that explicitly refers to the series as a sequel. It's actually even more helpful than that: it says the show "takes place after the events of the film".

It also notes that the series "ended in 2008 after the death of Eartha Kitt, who voiced the villainous Yzma." Do you have anything else on this? It's not out of the question for a series to end following the death of one of its stars. It should be noted anyway—regardless of whether we can definitively prove that Kitt's death was the reason for the show's cancellation, there's no disputing the timing, and this source explicitly makes the connection. —BLZ · talk 22:01, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the source. I have integrated it into the article. The part about the show's connection with the film is particularly helpful. I did see people talk about Kitt's death as a reason for the show's cancelation, but I was unable track down a reliable source that tied the two explicitly together. I must have missed the source since it was published after I did the research for the article so thank you for bringing it to may attention and apologies for that. Her death was quite sad, but her work seems to live and continue to be appreciated. Aoba47 (talk) 23:08, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"whenever Kronk pulls the lever to her secret lab" — almost; it's famously the wrong lever, right?

Very true lol. I am surprised I missed that one. Aoba47 (talk) 01:31, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The series uses physical comedy with a "self-aware" approach." – I think this statement conflates two different things: the show's physical comedy and its humorous self-awareness. These two qualities don't necessarily manifest at the same time, and it should be made more clear that these are two separate aspects.

Good point. I have revised the sentence to hopefully avoid that, but let me know if it is still not entirely working still. Aoba47 (talk) 01:31, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I also think "Kuzco stopping a scene" warrants some more explanation. I'd like the see the phrase "breaking the fourth wall" to make it more clear what is happening and why it is self-aware. Some explanation of Kuzco's dual role as both protagonist and narrator would go a long way.

I have added an additional source, and attempted to break it down a little more clearer. For some reason, I thought I had more explicitly discussed this in the article so that was my mistake. It is still rather rough so I will look at it more in the near future to try and clean it up more, but feel free to copy-edit it more. Aoba47 (talk) 01:56, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"one-line jokes aimed at an older audience" – I've revised this sentence. The phrase "older audience", by itself, suggests an adult (or at least teenage) audience, and thus suggests that the show contains the adult humor and double entendres characteristic of franchises like Shrek. The source said "While nothing precludes youngsters from watching 'The Emperor's New School,' the cartoon fundamentally is a show of one-liners, most of which will be funnier the older one is." The use of the word "youngsters" (which suggests very young children, rather than more savvy tweens) and the gentle phrase "the older one is" (rather than a more frank warning about adult content) suggests a contrast between younger children and slightly older children, not between children and teens/adults. —BLZ · talk 00:32, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the revision. I completely agree with your reasoning as it is best to be as specific as possible to avoid misinterpretation. Aoba47 (talk) 01:57, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Concept and creation

Disney Channel should be styled as just "Disney Channel," not the Disney Channel.

Thank you for catching this. I am not sure why I wanted to put a "the" in front of it so apologies for that. Aoba47 (talk) 01:59, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"after The Emperor's New Groove attracted high ratings" – What's interesting here, but unstated, is that The Emperor's New Groove was not picked up for a spin-off series until relatively late. Most earlier Disney shows spun off from a film would have been cleared for production on the basis of box office performance (or perhaps even projections). I think there's more to unpack here: whatever you can find from sources about why the film's box office receipts were not considered strong enough for a film (even though it did turn a profit), whether strong sales on home video/DVD were also a factor in greenlighting the show, the date(s) of the TV broadcast(s) of Emperor's New Groove that were considered impressive, and the number of people who viewed the broadcast of the film if known.

I have updated this part to include further information on the ratings and the VHS/DVD sales. Apologies for missing this in my earlier versions of the article. The Emperor's New Groove was largely seen as a box office disappointment, particularly when compared to the Disney Renaissance, and like Atlantis: The Lost Empire and Treasure Planet, it is often cited as part of a slump in Disney's commercial output. According to a source cited in the article, there is not one clear cut reason for this poor performance. It could be due to large-scale production changes and delays, the film's lack of songs or sympathetic lead, audience's disinterest in high-energy comedies, the film's opening in the holiday season, or Disney's greater focus on 102 Dalmatians. It is most likely a combination of all of these factors, but the film seemed to have attracted an audience pretty long after its theatrical release, and I wonder if a big-budget Disney release could be considered a cult classic. Apologies for the long message. That is all just to say that I have tried to address it in the article, but feel free to look it over and copy-edit it. Aoba47 (talk) 03:12, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added that the initial title Emperor's New Skool was "deliberately misspelled"—it seems possible that a screen reader may pronounce "Skool" the same as "School" and make it seem like there was no difference between the two titles, or that anyone else could miss the relatively subtle change.

Thank you! Aoba47 (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"unlike many other animated series, New School would use its protagonist as its main source of comedy rather than a supporting character" – I've already slightly revised the wording here, but I'm curious what he said in the original source, especially whether he made any direct comparisons to other shows by name. One of my changes was to turn "unlike other animated series" into "unlike many other animated series"—it seems implausible to assert that this trait would distinguish New School from virtually any other animated series, considering that there are so many obvious counterexamples (SpongeBob SquarePants comes to mind; it's not that the side characters on that show aren't also funny, but clearly SpongeBob is a "main source of comedy".) —BLZ · talk 01:32, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the copy-edit! From what I remember, Gannaway does not mention any show by name in his quote as it is more of a general observation. I agree with your assessment. There are certainly several other examples, like Spongebob SquarePants, where the comedic character is the lead. I wonder if he is referring more to an unsympathetic, comedic character being the lead, since Kuzco for instance has more narcissistic, selfish moments than Spongebob normally does, but that is purely speculation on part. It would be cool if more information on the production side of the show came out. Maybe, there will be something with the movie's 20th anniversary (man, I feel old lol). Aoba47 (talk) 03:36, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I found the original source and figured out that he meant the character dynamic was unique among Disney films, not necessarily animated series in general:

"When asked about what makes The Emperor's New School stand out in a cluttered field of animated shows vying for young viewers' attention, [Gannaway] notes, 'The Emperor's New Groove is one of the only Disney features in which the main character is a comedian. Usually the comics are sidekicks. But here, you have a funny lead character and supporting players that are very well-defined.' (the last paragraph of p. 32, continued on p. 33)

I've revised the wording accordingly. —BLZ · talk 21:22, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for finding the quote and doing the revision. That makes much more sense to me. Aoba47 (talk) 21:47, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cast

"J. P. Manoux replaces David Spade as the voice for Kuzco for New School." – Any more on this about either of them? Did Spade or anyone else say anything about Spade's decision not to return? Did Manoux make any statements about taking on the lead role? I saw one source (not sure which) note that Manoux's performance of Kuzco was essentially a David Spade impression, which I think that would be worth adding here. Might also be worth noting that Manoux had debuted as Kuzco in a DVD bonus feature for New Groove—feel free to even use the exact language "Manoux had debuted as Kuzco in a DVD bonus feature for New Groove," if you like.

It appears that Manoux took over as the main voice actor for Kuzco after Spade. I have expanded this part to include other instances in which Manoux voiced the character. The only instance that I am struggling to find a good source is Sorcerers of the Magic Kingdom. I was thinking of just citing it as a primary source, but I am uncertain on how to go about that for an interactive, theme park game. I have added the part about Manoux's performance being very close to Spade's. It was actually pointed out by two different articles. I could not find any comments from Manoux about his performance, although I have found some videos of him doing the Kuzco/Spade voice at fan events. I also could not find anything on why Spade left the role, which was a shame because it would have been nice if he stayed on for the show. I will keep looking for more information on both though as it could just be the search terms I am using. Aoba47 (talk) 02:17, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I unfortunately could not find any sources about why Spade decided to leave. It is quite odd as there many many instances in which Disney voice actor stick with their character through sequels and television spin-offs (Aladdin is the first one that comes to my mind). Maybe it's because the film under-performed or the film and his performance got quite a bit of negative reviews at the time of its release (reviews seemed to have primarily turned more positive years after the film release)? Would be nice if someone asked him this during an interview now lol. Aoba47 (talk) 20:57, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I beefed up the one quote from Eartha Kitt and added another one. It's evident she relished the role and expressed her enthusiasm in typical flamboyant style, which is fun to read. The symmetry of ending one statement with "There is no other Yzma!" and another with "May Yzma sing forever and often!" is too charming to pass up, imo. (My usual instinct is to avoid synonyms of "said," which tend to be overly flowery, but in the case of "May Yzma sing forever and often!" I think it's fine to use "proclaimed" because, after all, this is literally a proclamation in the style of "The king is dead, long live the king!")

Thank you. I very much prefer your version because it does add more character and more accurately reflects Kitt's personality. I think it would add to the reader's interest in the material to clearly see how the actor was very much excited about the role. Aoba47 (talk) 02:20, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I changed your paraphrasing of "There [can be] no other Yzma!" back to Kitt's original wording "There is no other Yzma!" Your paraphrase also captures the meaning of what she said, so I don't think it was misleading in any respect, but her meaning was already clear in the original and on balance I think it's better to convey her original phrasing. When I see bracketed phrases within quotes—sometimes even when I come across them while reading articles that I'm not reviewing—I typically go to the source to see why the bracketed change was made, since there must be some reason why the quote had to be altered (if only slightly) to convey the correct meaning or to avoid confusion (as in the case of, for example, an ambiguous pronoun). Here, I don't see a compelling reason for the alteration.

That makes sense to me. I am not entirely sure why I paraphrased it so I agree with your revision. Aoba47 (talk) 02:20, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Probably worth mentioning, as this 2007 article in the Ventura County Star does, that Warburton was a recurring voice actor on five series including New School at the same time, one of which (Kim Possible) was also on Disney Channel. You wouldn't have to name all the other shows necessarily, but it would make sense just to note the tally of five shows and Kim Possible by name because of the Disney Channel connection. It reflects a bit about Warburton's career at that time—he seems to have had more work as a voice actor than any other cast member on the show.

Thank you for the source. I have added it to the article. Aoba47 (talk) 03:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The original voice actor, John Goodman, returned ..." — It would be a good idea to introduce the fact that Goodman originally played Pacha earlier in the paragraph, even if you keep the sentence about Goodman's ultimate return where it is at the end. Also: did Goodman make any public statements about returning to the role? He's a pretty big name—it's not that it would be out of the question for him to voice the character on a TV spin-off version, he's always been quite prolific, but it does seem notable that he decided to return after an initial decision to opt out.

That is a good point. I have revised the article. I will be doing some further research on why Goodman did not participate in the first season (and why Spade did not participate in it at all) over the next few days. Apologies for the delay. I just want to make sure that I do as an exhaustive search as possible to insure I do not miss anything, since as you have already pointed out in the review, I have overlooked quite a fair amount of sources. I will add a message on here when I have either added new sources or to report that I could not find anything else. I hope that is okay. Aoba47 (talk) 03:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I could not find much about Goodman's role in the show. Several sources completely gloss over the fact he was not in the first season, and just mention Goodman as connected with the show in a more generic statement. Tatasciore seems to be in a lot of Disney projects as "additional voices" so maybe they hired him (since he already understood the voice-acting process) while negotiating with Goodman, but that is just pure speculation on my part. Aoba47 (talk) 21:04, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In fact: I think it would be best to restructure the section so that it begins with the idea that "Most of the voice cast from the film returned for the series," which is supported by e.g. Daley's article in Screen Rant.

Good idea. Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 03:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think there are other noteworthy guest stars out there. I found Miley's sister Noah Cyrus and comedian Gabriel Iglesias.

I have added a few more guest stars to the list, and added sources to support the new information. Aoba47 (talk) 03:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to have more perspective from the cast members. Bergen has a fun quote here about performing with Warburton despite never recording in the same room at the same time. Did Jessica DiCicco have anything to say about playing Malina, the most prominent new character (and the target of some criticism)?

Thank you for the link. I am uncertain on how I missed that the first time through. I have added the information and quoted the Abbott and Costello bit because it is quite amazing lol. It is always interesting to hear about how voice actors record separately and yet can still have such great chemistry on screen. It is a real testament not only to the voice actors, but to the editors and animators. There is certainly a lot to juggle. As with the Spade/Goodman comments above, I will do more research on DiCicco. I would not be surprised if she spoke somewhere given Malina is the most prominent new character so I could see Disney pushing that as a promotional tool. I will try my best to dig something up. It would be interesting to learn more about her experience and perspective. I actually enjoyed the character; it was just the hottie hot hottie part that I found grating. Aoba47 (talk) 03:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I could not find anything on DiCicco's opinions on Malina or New School in general. Aoba47 (talk) 21:11, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No problem; thanks for checking it out. Can't use information that doesn't exist, so it's not an issue. —BLZ · talk 23:48, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Animation and music

Overall, solid. Might be nice to have more secondary commentary. This book makes a comment about the quality of New School's animation (and writing), albeit in passing as a comment on Disney spin-off shows generally. This source might be better suited to reception.

I have added the source to the reception section. I think his criticism about Disney spin-off shows assuming the audience has a built-in familiarity with the source material is interesting, and I tired to think of a way to word it for the production section, but it always sounded too opinionated and seemed more relevant for the reception section. Thank you again. Aoba47 (talk) 03:27, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Broadcast history and release

According to this 2008 article at Broadcasting & Cable, New School and a group of other Disney Channel shows were made available to stream on Netflix starting in 2009. Unclear when the license expired expired. Notably, the deal was the first Disney–ABC license for Netflix and was announced only 18 months into the launch of Netflix as a streaming service (and a few months before New School aired its final episode).

I have added a sentence about it with an additional source about how Disney has recently ended their Netflix deal in favor Disney+. Aoba47 (talk) 03:35, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Anything about where New School aired in non-domestic markets? E.g. it aired on the Family Channel in Canada.

I will look into that while doing the research for Spade/Goodman/DiCicco information. It was honestly something that I did not think about so thank you for raising it to my attention. Aoba47 (talk) 03:27, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any idea on where I could find that information? I have tried a few different ways, but I could not find anything. Aoba47 (talk) 20:51, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's alright, I don't think it's strictly necessary. Besides, on second thought, any attempt to create a list of where else the show aired in the international marketplace would end up incomplete, so choosing to list a handful that happen to be mentioned in reliable sources would end up being somewhat arbitrary. Many major markets would be missing from the list for no reason other than the lack of a readily available source. —BLZ · talk 23:48, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Each episode runs for 30 minutes" – Probably less with time for commercial breaks, right? I've checked articles about other series (The Simpsons, Rugrats) and it looks like the norm is to list the running time of a typical episode rather than the block of time they fit into with commercials. —BLZ · talk 00:58, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 22:50, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to clarify the rollout of the complicated multi-part premiere, but I still have a few questions. Before my most recent edit, the article said this: "The first episode, "Rabbit Face", debuted on the four networks between January 27 and January 29, 2006." Two issues. First, not all four of the platforms in question were really "networks", since Disney Channel On Demand is not a network at all, while ABC Kids is only a regular block on an actual network, ABC. Second, it's not quite clear when the "true" earliest premiere occurred, or on which network it premiered. I revised the text to clarify where and when each premiere occurred.

However, it's still not clear to me when it "really" premiered because of an apparent contradiction between the Animation World Network and AllMovie sources. According to Animation World Network, the show apparently first aired on Toon Disney on January 20, 2006—the same day that it became available through Disney Channel On Demand. That date would have been a Friday, a fact which is used later to say that the show's regular time slot on Toon Disney was "on Friday afternoons". On the other hand, AllMovie says that the show "debuted on The Disney Channel, ABC and Toon Disney over a three-day period, from January 27 through 29, 2006". Knowing that the show debuted Jan. 27 on Disney Channel and Jan. 28 on ABC, these seems to suggest that the third debut was Sunday Jan. 29 on Toon Disney. Otherwise, it's not clear why the date Jan. 29 is there at all; even Disney Channel's second airing should have occurred on Saturday, not Sunday. My suspicion is that both sources are wrong in some way, but it's not clear how. I doubt that it aired on Toon Disney on Jan. 20, because otherwise why would it be mentioned third by AWN if it had come first? This article on Animation Magazine indicates that New School was part of a Saturday/Sunday block on Toon Disney starting in 2007, but other (not necessarily "reliable") sources indicate that New School may have played on Toon Disney in various other time slots throughout the week, which changed over time. Either way, I don't know what to make of the Toon Disney premiere date used by AWN or how to use it; I don't know that it can be reliably used to say that Friday afternoons became its regular time on that channel.

Thank you for the message, and this part is much more confusing that I had initially thought so apologies for that. From what I can see, a majority of the sources put the show's premiere on January 27. I also doubt that the series debuted on Toon Disney first, because it would seem more normal to have shows like this one premiere on Disney Channel first before anything else. As for sourcing the time slots, I could try looking through Newspapers.com for TV listings. Just wanted to check with you about this first. Aoba47 (talk) 21:20, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have looked through the newspaper archives, and although I found a lot of TV listings, the times and days even are all over the place. A lot of the TV listings do not distinguish between the original airings and reruns, which adds an extra layer of confusion. Based on screenshots of the official New School website, it included a schedule feature. While that may clear things up, I do not think the site is available due to Flash issues. A majority of the sources I found put the premiere on January 27 on Disney Channel. Here is another source (from the Chicago Tribune) that mentions this premiere date (as well as the time slot). However, that source even has its own problem as Yzma never has magic spells as it claims lol. The AWN source about Kitt singing (here) mentions a Saturday premiere at 8:30 pm, which is different from the AWN source used for the scheduling. It is all rather confusing, and it could be a case where there was not a clearly defined schedule. With all of this confusion, I have removed the information from that section. Aoba47 (talk) 05:07, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Critical reception

I found some sources critical of New School in terms of educational content that I want to share:

2008 article from The Globe and Mail: According to a survey of "30 television shows that U.S. commercial broadcasters label as educational or informational for preschoolers, elementary-school kids and teenagers as part of federal 'core educational programming' requirements" conducted by "Barbara Wilson, a communication professor", and her colleagues, New School and two other shows "scored high on social aggression, which involves gossip, exclusion and other non-physical means of hurting others. While Dr. Wilson allows that the makers of shows that portray social aggression probably see it as a way to teach children not to engage in such behaviour, she says some shows include so much of it that the message may be fuzzy. 'If you're showing it repeatedly throughout the episode, it's far more likely you're doing it for laughs and to entertain,' she says." A pdf of the study itself can be found here.
Another criticism came in the context of regulations on children's television programming in the United States. Children's Media Policy Coalition (CMPC)—an advocacy group made up of member organizations Children Now, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Benton Foundation, the National PTA, and Office of Communication of the United Church of Christ—conducted a survey of educational content in children's media. It was attached as Appendix II to this filed 2007 FCC comment; the critique of New School can be found at pp. 2–3 of Appendix II. They also noted that Emperor's New School was one of the "74% (seventeen shows)" out of 25 E/I shows in the survey that "contained only social-emotional messages," i.e. no academic/informational lessons at all. They also explicitly note New School's target age of 8–11, which I believe is sourced from FCC filings and broadcaster. In its reply, the National Association of Broadcasters quoted from the CMPC's critique of New School at p. 8, fn. 26: "Kuzco never has to face a personal conflict or find a resolution, nor are there any real repercussions for Kuzco's anti-social behavior (other than his eventual loneliness)."

These echo some of the critical comments already found in the article, but with the addition of academic perspective on childhood development. —BLZ · talk 01:07, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the sources. That is very interesting, and apologies for missing them before. I will probably format this information into its own separate paragraph in the reception section. I will most likely do it some time tomorrow if that is okay with you. Aoba47 (talk) 03:40, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have attempted to incorporate this information into the article although it is very rough. It was getting quite long so I made it into its own subsection. I am uncertain if I have put too much information in the article or not so I would greatly appreciate your perspective on the matter. I have incorporated some of the information from these sources in other areas of the article. I have also added in some additional sources (one about the show's vaudeville humor and another on its Christmas episode). I found those two sources while looking for further information on Spade/Goodman/DiCicco. Thank you again for the above sources. They were quite interesting to read through, and I may look at them again more thoroughly in the future to read how they discuss other shows. Aoba47 (talk) 20:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Episodes

Sources for the "first aired" and "last aired" dates? —BLZ · talk 23:48, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have added sources for all of the airdates. I have also removed the wikilinks for both seasons as they are not working, and I do not think they are particularly beneficial. I will read through and address the rest of the comments tomorrow if that is okay with you. Aoba47 (talk) 03:57, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Of course—no rush. —BLZ · talk 03:58, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cast (Brian Cummings/Pacha)

Regarding Pacha: "Some media outlets erroneously attributed Brian Cummings with the role. Cummings had done "advance voice work" for Pacha as part of The Emperor's New Groove's development." This could use clearing up. It seems that Cummings did contribute to the show in some capacity. Disney Voice Actors: A Biographical Dictionary confirms that he contributed voice acting to the show, without specifying what his role was.

However, the main issue here is not really about whether Cummings was on the show at all. It's actually that, although Animation Magazine and Rapid City Journal are reliable sources, they can't be used to verify their own error. You're clearly right to point out that those two sources were incorrect about Cummings. But citing those same sources only verifies that they made the claim "Cummings played Pacha"; it does not verify that they were wrong about that claim, as they didn't run corrections. It doesn't seem that any other secondary sources followed up to "correct" those two. The only other thing that can verify the error would be specific credits for the entirety of the series—i.e., not just a list of cast members, but a complete (or very nearly complete) list of every cast member and which role(s) they played on the series.

IMDb's full credits for the show indicate that Cummings appeared on a number of episodes as "voice", which I take to mean additional voices for unnamed miscellaneous characters, just like you said Tatasciore had done on other Disney shows. Meanwhile, Tatasciore is credited by name as Pacha.

Now, IMDb is usually considered an iffy source by Wikipedia standards—see WP:CITINGIMDB and WP:RS/IMDB)—but I trust it here (at least on an informal basis). According to WP:CITINGIMDB, it's "in dispute about whether it is appropriate to reference [IMDb] on Wikipedia" for released "films" only, for "the cast list, character names, the crew lists, release dates, company credits, awards, soundtrack listing, filming locations, technical specs, alternate titles, running times, and rating certifications." Unfortunately, the guideline doesn't specify the nature of the dispute in terms of when it is or isn't considered appropriate, or the arguments for or against. AllMovie's "cast and crew" section for the series doesn't work as an alternate source because it is much less complete than IMDb's cast listing. AllMovie omits easily-verified cast members like John Goodman and thus would not be adequate to verify that Cummings did not play Pacha; we can't use AllMovie to say that Cummings did not play Pacha and invalidate the other two (technically reliable, if incorrect) sources, because we could just as easily say AllMovie shows Goodman never played the role and any sources indicating otherwise were in error. In this situation, it seems to me that the only alternative to citing IMDb's collated, series-long full cast & crew section would be to somehow cite the series as a whole as a primary source, which would also be a problematic solution for its own reasons.

So Aoba47, my question now is: do you know of any reliable source as thorough as IMDb's full cast & crew for the purpose of showing that Cummings never played Pacha? If not: how would you feel about using IMDb? Personally I'm in favor of it, but I'm not familiar with past discussions on IMDb's relative reliability and when it could be appropriate to cite them for cast information. I feel like it would be OK under WP:CITINGIMDB to cite IMDb in this situation, since it's a completed TV series, there's a lack of acceptable alternative sources, and we have a rare situation of two reliable sources being wrong about casting of a major role. This question probably warrants further input, and it may be necessary to reach out to Wikipedia:WikiProject Film (since they have the guideline about IMDb as a source) and/or Wikipedia:WikiProject Television (since the article falls within their scope). —BLZ · talk 23:48, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for bringing this up. I agree that my part about the sources incorrectly listing Cummings as Pacha was far too strong and my own interpretation. I would not have an issue using IMDb in this context, because, as you have already explained in your message above, this is a rather rare case. It may be helpful to also reach out to Wikipedia:RSN about it since I could see this being useful for other editors working on similar types of articles. I have found this book source which says that Cummings "has provided voices for hundreds of episodes of such animated series" as The Emperor's New School, so I am curious if that could be used. I will incorporate the IMDb source in a few moments, and revise the prose to better reflect the sources, but I was just trying to brainstorm different avenues. My only concern with the proposed book source is that it is rather vague, but I would be interested in getting your feedback on it. Thank you again for addressing this as this does raise a lot of interesting questions about working on articles like this one. Aoba47 (talk) 21:20, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support – I've now copyedited the "Reception" section, which completes my review. SandyGeorgia's review prompted several improvements that resolved the remaining issues I'd raised in my last new comments. Having turned over just about every conceivable stone, I now believe the article meets the FA criteria and is in as good a state as it could possibly be. Thank you Aoba47, as always, for your patience, positive attitude, and dedication. —BLZ · talk 23:53, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I should be the one thanking you. You have helped to improve the article immensely, and I am very grateful for your time and the energy you put into it. It was a lot of fun to learn more about the show, with some surprising information (like the educational criticism) and some bothersome inconsistencies (the premiere dates and scheduling as a whole). I again want to thank SandyGeorgia (and everyone who participated in the review). I am really proud of the article, and it honestly could not be done without everyone. Hope you had a happy holidays! I cannot believe the year is almost over, but I lose track of time quite often lol. Aoba47 (talk) 00:47, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SandyGeorgia edit

I have not read any commentary above (the FAC is twice as long as the short article). Compared with 3,415 words of readable prose, the lead is quite long and goes in to excess detail (see MOS:LEAD). There are some obvious ways to trim verbosity from the lead (~~Example: In addition to the preceding characters, who had all appeared in the original film,~~ The series introduced Malina, Kuzco's overachieving female classmate and love interest.), but more trimming would still be needed to make it a tight and compelling summary of the article. From there, I skipped down to a random section, where the first sentence is:

- I will look through the lead and attempt to cut down any extraneous information. Aoba47 (talk) 04:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The multi-platform premiere of New School was called a "typical Disney super-saturation" broadcast practices by AllMovie's Hal Erickson.
- ????
  - I will reword this part momentarily. The series was broadcast across four channels, and the media outlet referred to this as typical of how Disney pushes out content in a "super-saturation" manner. I will revise this part as this section has revised quite a bit during the FAC. Aoba47 (talk) 04:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - I have reworded this part and moved it to a different spot in the section to hopefully make things clear. Aoba47 (talk) 04:11, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Down to the first sentence of the next section:

New School was covered in several reviews, which highlighted good and bad aspects of the series.
- ... which does not say anything.
  - I had originally put in the lead that the series received mixed reviews, but there were concerns that since a source never clearly defines this, it would go against WP:OR and WP:SYNTH so the above sentence was suggested as a compromise. I would be more than happy to hear your suggestion though. I have replaced that sentence with a topic sentence about the series' positive reception which is already outlined in the paragraph. Aoba47 (talk) 04:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have revised the reception section and split it into three paragraphs: one for the contemporary reviews, one for the retrospective reviews, and one for the Malina criticism since it has both types of reviews. I think that this creates a stronger flow for the section. I have added quite a bit of information to the article after doing more research so apologies for all of the activity. I will refrain from doing any edits to make sure reviewers can look at a stable copy of the article. Aoba47 (talk) 23:13, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

~~So some prose tightening is probably in order and may be best accomplished by a fresh set of eyes.~~ SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:02, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Struck, copyedit seems to have been effective. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:00, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- I respect your opinion. I will do some revisions to the article as I have stated in my above comments. @Brandt Luke Zorn: is still wrapping up his review so I would look forward to his responses and further commentary. Aoba47 (talk) 04:13, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - Sounds good ... busy holiday time, and I won't be following closely, but I will check back after Christmas. (The concern about such a long FAC review is that the nominator ends up doing, undoing, and re-doing to please reviewers ... as you seem to indicate may be happening.) Good luck! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:30, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Oops, I failed to give you suggestions on the sentence that doesn't say anything ... it sounds like you ended up there because of previous reviewers, and it may not be the best compromise. I suggest going to WP:FA and browsing similar series, for ideas of ways other FA writers have handled the dilemma of how to summarize reviews without getting SYNTH-y. I can't think of a favorite series FA off the top of my head, or I'd recommend one to you. I'm pretty sure most "critical reception" sections just dive in, without trying to summarize it, but I could be mis-remembering. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:35, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - Thank you for the response. I hope I did not come across as rude in any of my responses. It is important to get different perspectives to build stronger content (as I am sure you are very familiar with). I will definitely look through other featured articles as I always find that to be helpful. I am used to editors putting together some kind of topic sentence, but in these instances, it may be best to just dive straight in the content, as topic sentences can often veer dangerously close to filler territory. I hope your holiday time is going well so far. I cannot believe it is the end of the year and the decade. I am somewhat frazzled today because I helped my mom make a cheesecake for a work function and the plumbing is starting to act up so it has been a little bit of a roller coaster. I am looking forward to hearing from you again, and thank you again for your comments. Aoba47 (talk) 04:50, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      I saw no rudeness ... Good luck with the plumbing, and the FAC, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:58, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      Awesome, and thank you! Aoba47 (talk) 05:00, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: Apologies for the ping. I just wanted to give you an update. I attempted to address the above concerns. I reached out to a few editors to get a fresh perspective on the article. I am very grateful for Gen. Quon for copy-editing the article and Homeostasis07 for providing helpful suggestions and supporting the nomination. Apologies again, as I know pings can be rather annoying particularly around the holidays, but just wanted to let you know that work has been and is currently being done to improve the article. Have a happy holidays! Aoba47 (talk) 02:16, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not to worry, on my list to get to today, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:26, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47, since Ian Rose already went through and promoted/archived this morning, it is unlikely that a FAC Coord will look at this today. I have other pressing work to attend to this morning, but will promise to get to this later. In the meantime, a few things you might look at:

I figured that would be the cast. I would have ideally liked to complete this nomination prior to the new year as that was when I planned to start my retirement (or at the least a long wikibreak), but I would not want to rush the process because of that. Thank you again for taking the time to do this. Aoba47 (talk) 20:06, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Starting anew

~~WP:NBSP: see my sample edit and review throughout.~~

It was one of three series deemed to have "high" levels of social aggression, alongside Hannah Montana and Jacob Two-Two.[74] Wilson noted that, in principle, a children's series could highlight characters who exhibit socially aggressive behaviors in order to teach children to avoid such behavior. However, she doubted whether that message would be adequately conveyed by shows with repeated instances of social aggression, which would be "far more likely" to feature such content "for laughs and to entertain" rather than to impart a moral lesson.[75]

I am unsure that "high" needs to be quoted here, and would like to see the opinion attribution (Wilson) moved to earlier in this passage, to indicate (I believe?) that the "high" levels of social aggression are attributed to Wilson. Also, in very briefly reviewing the source (perhaps too briefly?), I am unsure where "rather than to impart a moral lesson" comes from, following on the "for laughs and to entertain". Could you show me a passage from the source that supports that phrase?

I have removed the quotation marks from high. Could you clarify the part about the attribution? Wilson is identified as the author of the report in the beginning of the paragraph so I was wondering how the attribution should be made clearer between Wilson and her remarks on social aggression.

Ah, I missed that she was at the beginning of the para, so no problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:51, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. It made me read over the paragraph and double-check, and that is always a good thing. Aoba47 (talk) 03:06, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I could not find the support for the "moral lesson" part so I removed it. That was probably a misreading on my part so apologies for that. Thank you again to BLZ for finding all the educational research. I had somehow missed all of them during my own research for the article, and it is pretty cool that this series was the object of study. I personally did not expect that so it is nice to learn more. Aoba47 (talk) 21:33, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

~~Consider per WP:LEAD whether these two passages provide unnecessary detail in the lead (overspecificity on dates):~~

The Emperor's New School is an American animated television series created by Mark Dindal, which aired on Disney Channel for two seasons from January 27, 2006 to November 20, 2008.

Could that be, "two seasons running between January 2006 and November 2008"?

I have revised the lead according to your suggestion. When looking through featured articles on television shows, they use the more specific dates for the premiere and finale, but I understand your point. I think it could be boiled down to a personal preference, and since I am fine either way, I have incorporated your suggestion. Aoba47 (talk) 20:06, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Between January 27 and 29, 2006, New School premiered across four platforms:

Could that be, "In January 2006"?

Revised. Aoba47 (talk) 20:06, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Best I can tell, this may be a personal peeve of mine that others do not care about; leads are littered with precise dates everywhere. I feel that leads don't need to be laden with so much specificity that no one cares about, rather gives us an easy-to-read broad overview. If you get pushback on that, you will have to blame me and tell them to go and whack me with a trout :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:51, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I actually agree with you when I see the lead revised. Leaving out the exact dates does make the information more digestible, particularly when the exact dates are in the infobox right next to the lead. That is one great thing about FACs. I can learn about new ways to better present information after being so accustomed to seeing it done with one style. I doubt I will get pushback in the future, but I will keep you informed lol. Aoba47 (talk) 03:06, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My concern is that we do not need to overburden the reader with too much detail in the lead; that detail is in the infobox and covered in the body. Are we burdening the reader with more numbers than they need ?

Also, I may be completely ignorant on some MOS-ism here, but why isn't it the Disney Channel?

Those are both good questions. For some reason, the sources leave out the "the", and just use Disney Channel instead. Not entirely sure why that is the case. I agree that it is probably best to cut back on the numbers as that information is already more readily accessible in the infobox. Aoba47 (talk) 21:25, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, will ignore the "the" issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:51, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I actually had the Disney Channel until a reviewer pointed out that it was incorrect. It sounds better with the "the", but have to go with the sources. It is not the first time I missed up things with the "the" lol. Aoba47 (talk) 03:06, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Promise to return later ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:19, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. Take as much time as you need. Aoba47 (talk) 21:25, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

and they ask me to say one of the lines. ... I love it.

There is something at either WP:NBSP of MOS:ELLIPSES about how to handle breaking spaces on a construct like this ... I haven't kept up with that issue, so will have to leave it to you to investigate. Not an issue worth holding up promotion over, but something that mainpage day nitpickers will pick up on. Still working, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:51, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I will check it out in the future. I have used the nobr template so the ellipse and surrounding words would not be separated to avoid any potential confusion. It is interesting to think about how people read articles in such different ways that the text placement is different on different screens, etc. I definitely need to read more thoroughly the punctuation parts of the MOS. I have been doubting myself lately about commas in particularly. Thank you again for the help. Aoba47 (talk) 03:06, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I did not read the entire article, and have not checked sources, so I am not in a position to support, but I did spot-check three sections and found nothing that should hold up promotion. Please let me know if you get pushback on the date changes, as I will take the heat for that one! Best of luck, we are good here, I am unwatching now, so you will need to ping me if further feedback is needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:00, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the help again, and I hope you had a merry Christmas (or holiday-time in general). It was fun to look through the points you have raised and learn more about it. Aoba47 (talk) 03:08, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like SandyGeorgia's unwatched this page already anyway, but I wanted to give two shout-outs (plus unpack the "Disney Channel" thing a little more):

Your trims to the lead were good and necessary. I'm partly to blame for it growing so long, as I copyedited before thoroughly reading the body, and I had always intended to revisit and trim it after I got a better sense of the overall content and condition of available sources (which has taken a while, admittedly). Anyway, lead looks really good now.
Trimming the dates was a good move. You don't have to "take the heat" for that at all (though I understand why you kindly offered to step in if anyone hassled Aoba47 about the change); to the contrary, thank you! It's stylistically preferable from the standpoint of prose quality, and it also serves as a workaround for the minor (but bedeviling) inaccuracies/discrepancies about those dates that I'd discovered in reliable sources. It seems impossible to resolve the precise dating of the complicated premiere rollout using the available sources anyway, so the date omission tidily resolves one of my last major issues.
Finally, the total omission of "the" from the name "Disney Channel" is a little odd but it is the correct usage, which it shares with some other networks. Similarly, Cartoon Network is never called the Cartoon Network (at least, not since 1995 or so). Numerous American networks with acronymic names avoid a "the" that might normally seem necessary in some sentences, or if the full name were used instead: for example, saying "the ESPN" might sound OK if you know that the last letter in its name stands for "Network", except for the tacit knowledge that that's not how you'd refer to ESPN regardless. It's something along the lines of the famous scene from The Social Network when they decide to drop the "the" and make it just Facebook in all usages, or this line from the spy film The Good Shepherd: "I remember a Senator once asked me, when we talk about CIA, why we never use the word the in front of it. And I asked him, 'do you put the word the in front of God?'" I don't think Disney is trying to brand its channel as God, exactly, but their "the" avoidance is intentional and seems to emphasize its status as a self-contained Proper Name, rather than a proper name (Disney) that happens to be attached as an adjective to a mere common noun (channel). —BLZ · talk 23:46, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Homeostasis07 edit

Wanted to comment on this a few weeks back but instead ended up depressed about something else... Anyways, just wanted to say that I agree with some of SandyGeorgia's comments above. There's a bit of verbosity that I think could easily be trimmed, such as in the Lead:

The series centers on Kuzco, a self-centered teenager who must graduate from Kuzco Academy to become emperor of the Inca Empire. Yzma, his former advisor, wants him to fail so she can be empress instead. Her schemes to sabotage Kuzco are staged with the help of her dim-witted henchman Kronk, while Kuzco is aided by the villager Pacha and his peasant family. New School introduced Malina, Kuzco's overachieving female classmate and love interest.

I think there's a bit too much detail in this paragraph. How about changing to something like: "The series centers on Kuzco, who must graduate from Kuzco Academy to become emperor of the Inca Empire. His former advisor Yzma schemes to sabotage Kuzco so she can be empress instead; she is aided by her henchman Kronk, while Kuzco is aided by the villager Pacha and his peasant family. New School introduced Kuzco's love interest Malina."

Thank you for the suggestion. I have incorporated it into the lead to simplify the lead. Aoba47 (talk) 02:31, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I made a couple of copy-edits to subsequent sections. Although most of it was brilliantly written, there was this one sentence in Cast:

She explained her decision with the "There is no other Yzma!"

Which seemed to jump out at me Cato-style. The previous sentences don't introduce why this quote is relevant, and it doesn't especially relate to subsequent sentences, so I'd suggest rephrasing or removing.

I have removed that part. I think the basic ideas was Kitt thought no one else could or should voice Yzma instead of her, but the previous sentences in that paragraph already firmly establish her connection with the character so that quote was somewhat redundant and probably best removed altogether. Aoba47 (talk) 02:31, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, I found the prose clear and engaging, and would be happy to support once these changes are made. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:32, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Homeostasis07: Thank you for the suggestions. I believe that I have addressed everything. I hope you are having a happy holidays, and sorry again to hear about Fredriksson, but at least people can celebrate her through listening to her music and learn about her through reading the related Wikipedia articles. Thank you again. Aoba47 (talk) 02:31, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for addressing my points Aoba47. I've read the article once more, and couldn't see anything else I'd suggest changing. Happy to support this nomination for promotion. Good luck with it. ;) Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 21:04, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the help and support! Aoba47 (talk) 22:37, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Status update edit

@FAC coordinators: Apologies for the ping. Just wanted to check on the status of the nomination as it has already received a source review, an image review, and quite a bit of commentary/reviews and support. Thank you for your time, and have an awesome end of your year! Aoba47 (talk) 00:49, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 09:40, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.