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Hypersaline baysEdit

It turns out there are six in the world. I listed them on the talk page and in the article.--William S. Saturn (talk) 06:40, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Statements like that one beg for some expansion. My frustrated curiosity is assuaged. --Wetman (talk) 12:36, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


Spotted! A dangerously thin looking User:Wetman untangles Jerry Hall's hair from the propeller at 3am before they head off to Mustique to quaff champagne in their love nest.

You will be sure to know, is this form of roof [1] (with curved edges rather than hipped) still called a Mansard in English, or does it have a more accuratly defining name? I thik it is Mansard still, but lately I keep coming across some new yerms that are challenging my confidence a little.  Giacomo  13:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Pevsner's probably as good an authority as any for the naming of parts, and he gives it as you suggest - a roof with a double slope, the lower being larger and steeper than the upper. I don't have Curl to hand, but I'd be surprised if he gave it any different. --Joopercoopers (talk) 20:21, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Since when have you been Mr Wetman's stand in JC? You get above yourself! However, on this occasion your research and mine happen to co-incide and you may just possibly be correct. I note our host is traveling, I wonder where he's gone? Well JC, seeing as you are here, how are your new "rights"? Not too tight and causing any "personal" discomfort I hope?  Giacomo  20:30, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
The sense of power is frankly dizzying. I'm looking down on you from this great height wondering if I tripped, would I fly like an eagle when surrounded by such turkeys? I celebrated by creating my best redirect ever - are you a member? --Joopercoopers (talk) 21:04, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I thought it was the "Silly Auld Gits Association." However, I'm glad you new power is proving to be an aphrodisiac - apparently such wonders are generally one trick ponies (so I'm told) enjoy it while it lasts. I wonder where he's gone, I'm in Windsor Castle (one does drop in from time to time) tomorrow, I shall be looking at every intelectual looking American with deep suspicion Giacomo  21:13, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I suspect the answer lies in his 'irregular responses' - Scalene Island perhaps? --Joopercoopers (talk) 21:23, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
No, that will be one of those horrible islands full of birdwatchers, stinking fish and seals and things - he would not go there - he will be somewhere warm, civilised and full of cultivated people.  Giacomo  21:26, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Actually Giacomo dear, Mr Wetman is currently mooning like a love-struck youth outside my London townhouse, with a drooping bouquet of roses in hand. He has taken to serenading me at night, and I have had my man Higgins throw a pitcher of water over him: admittedly, I did think it was the neighbour's cat when I gave the order, but never mind, it achieved the desired effect. Mr Wetman now lives up to his name, rather literally, poor boy. However, if he continues I may be forced to have him served with a restraining order, similar to that which I placed on your troublesome great aunt after she created that unpleasant business when I was entertaining her eleventh husband in my box at the opera. Princess Venetia di Cannoli (talk) 09:01, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

It's starting to sound like an edition of Hello! magazine round here. Next we'll be told our aquatic friend is a size zero and frequenting the recessive gene pool of Kerry Katona. --Joopercoopers (talk) 09:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Wetman in fact has come down yesterday from Yorkshire, where his 97-year old father has proposed marriage to the widow of Wetman's mother's second cousin and been accepted, to the general delight of all. There is a family tradition of tying up these loose ends, due in part to our Anglo-Welsh background. Wetman is currently sitting in a bay window at Brighton, overlooking a lawn with a view of the sea and the sound of seagulls. He has not set foot on the pebbly shingle that passes here for beach.
Yes, the linked roof is still a mansard.--Wetman (talk) 18:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Oh poor Mr Wetman one does sympathise, my dearest and closest friend the very late Dowager Empress of Russian once famously likened a mutual friend to a wet weekend in Brighton, but at least the sun is shining for you. Perhaps, whilst there, you may like to brush up Royal Pavilion; it certainly needs it! Yorkshire before August? had your driver lost his way; was there anyone there? Oh to think, you and darlingest Giacomo are seperated only by a few miles, how exiting is that - perhaps you can feel his aura? I do feel for you over your family complications, one only has to glance above where that "woman" is claiming to be my sister - I always said her adoption was a mistake. If it were not for darling Giacomo my own family life would be unbearable. Lady Catherine de Burgh (the Late) (talk) 19:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I promise to give a better report of the Marine Pavilion soon, now that I've seen it again, Lady Catherine, though I don't have the histories by Messrs Musgrave, Dinkel or Rutherford. I did not sample Brighton Rock or a confection being called Seagull Poo. --Wetman (talk) 08:01, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't believe I have sampled "Seagull Poo"! Regarding that dreadful man's extraordinary seaside home, I do indeed have a "bookette" on the Pavilion by one Jessica M F Rutherford - presumably a relation of my dearest friend, Margaret - so anything you wish to know, please do not be afraid to ask. It contains a charming painting of His Late Majesty awakening the Spirit of Brighton clad only in a Garter sash - most unusual. It seems to me Brighton would have been better off if the wretched monarch had left its spirit quite alone. So pleased that you are returned to us, I would naturally have asked you to dine, but I supposed you had not your dinner jacket with you and it's so important to maintain standards. Lady Catherine de Burgh (the Late) (talk) 15:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
At the Pavilion itself, Rex Whistler's cheeky allegory is exposed to every unfeeling tourist's view. I've recently seen his witty dining room wall canvas at Plas Newydd. Your nephew Giano may be inspired to enrich the Brighton Pavilion article, now that its bare bones are accurate,--Wetman (talk) 19:02, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Sorry Wetman, I never "do" a house in which my highly esteemed great aunt may have "slept"; somethings are best left unspoken. However, I do believe that she is planing an FA and full expose of Scrotum Towers, her ancestral home. Once an ugly house by Wren, it was redesigned by her Great Grandfather (the Architect-Earl) in the never fashionable Mausoleum Gothic. Queen Victoria visiting on a comfort stop while heading northwards describes it as "a true amazement, unprecedented and unparalleled in the history of British architecture" In the meantime, while Wikipedia waits breathlessly for the first ever public details of Scrotum Towers, I too have the Rutherford book, should you wish to ref any obvious information. Hope you enjoyed your trip.  Giacomo  19:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, it was, indeed, thank you, Giano. I returned home after twenty-four hours travelling, to record heat. Record heat in July in New York means, in this case, 103°F. Reminds me of the classic British weather report: "81° again today. No relief in sight". I took with me an umbrella, causing your current drought. Wales remains green: it must be the dew.--Wetman (talk) 05:59, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Rene Chambellan/Williamsburg BankEdit

Thank you for posting those great photos. My grandfather was Rene Chambellan and I have not seen the bank for almost 20 years. I always enjoyed his "Burgular" along with his usual wonderful execution of the overall design elements. Bob Perrone —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. The photos were actually taken by a friend on our expedition to Williamsburgh Savings Bank Tower, in part to get some detailed shots. Please do vet the Wikipedia article Rene Paul Chambellan for accuracy (though you'll probably have to provide citations for your changes).--Wetman (talk) 18:23, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

La Peregrina pearlEdit

I think there was some sort of edit conflict when you edited the page because it appears that you reverted some of my edits. I made the changes again.[2] If you actually disagree with the changes, feel free to revert. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 23:17, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there were several of them. I didn't mean to eliminate any of your recent edits. I hope nothing is lost.--Wetman (talk) 23:59, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Some are still lost. You can compare the diff [3]. I have to run now, so if you don't do it, I'll try to fix it a later time. best, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:06, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Are there any changes in the diff with the present version that are not improvements? I shall remove La Peregrina pearl from my watchlist and let you get on with it in peace.--Wetman (talk) 00:20, 30 June 2010 (UTC)--Wetman (talk) 00:20, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Response to Palmolive Box query (also placed in Palmolive Beauty Box Theater discussion page)Edit

It is well documented that Dragonette's appearance on the Palmolive Beauty Box Theater adversely affected her career. I have added some additional references regarding this. Whether "demise" is the appropriate word to describe the effect is subjective, and I have edited the article, changing "demise" to "adversely affected". Thank you for your query. Niel Shell, author of the article Niel Shell (talk) 23:03, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Much clearer as you've re-edited it.--Wetman (talk) 23:07, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


The Sumerian god of the sky is called Anu.Is it possible that the greek word άνω is relative?In that case this root exists in the name Uranus. (talk) 13:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Hellene and Near Eastern connections in cult and myth are less and less controversial with each passing decade. For Wikipedia purposes, though, you'd have to make the suggestion in the form of a report giving the gist of what you've read to this effect. Otherwise some Tagger will label it "Original Research".--Wetman (talk) 17:07, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

This is not a suggestion but a question to an expert. Even in Wikipedia there are some controversial items. In the article Varuna it's written that the name of the Iranian God Ahura Mazda is propably derived from Proto-Indo-Iranian *vourouna-*mitra. In the article Ahura Mazda it's written that propably the term Ahura is equated to the Persian variety of the Assyrian God Ashur. I am a Greek, but the etymology of some Greek words from PIE are not quite satisfactory. (talk) 07:51, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not an expert linguist by any stretch. Derivations from Proto-Indo-European that are offered in Wikipedia really ought to be supported by a citation, as they're never "common knowledge"— whatever that means nowadays, eh. Do log in: responding to a post from an IP number feels like answering an anonymous phone call.--Wetman (talk) 15:48, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Inspired, copied or just in a contemparary common styleEdit

I have just stumbled upon this page; I am very worried about it, as I think it is worse than wrong, it's downright misleading. In short, it's cheap tourist book speculation. I have hardly any time at present for Wikipedia. I've left a note on the talk page, but I think it needs you or one of your correspondents to take a look. In my view, it wants re-writing or deleting, I don't have time for the former and am unable to perform the latter! Regards  Giacomo  07:37, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

It seems to have been expanded from a short list formerly at "Palace" of Versailles, without further critical assessment. Now it's just a list of big European baroque palaces. Not much there to build upon...--Wetman (talk) 23:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I renamed the page and reorganized it. This exposed a number of red links which this guy has set out to exterminate. Still it's not appropriate to keep grand royal palaces and German maisons de plaisance on the same page. Another problem: country residences a la Versailles should be separated from town houses harking back to Bernini's Roman palazzi. --Ghirla-трёп- 18:39, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. List of Baroque residences is surely the best title for what we are seeing there.--Wetman (talk) 18:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

On First Looking into Chapman's HomerEdit

Hi, your recent edit seems to have removed all the references, external links and interwiki links. I can't believe you intended that, so I've reverted to the previous version. Cheers. Rodhullandemu 23:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Ouch! that was certainly unintended. Thank you. I've re-edited the observation that "realms of gold" in the opening line seem to imply worldly riches.--Wetman (talk) 23:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK minor thingy...Edit

  Hello! Your submission of Labbu at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there is still a minor thing that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 19:30, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


Hello Wetman. I was wondering if you have anything of the proper title of Avarice (Dürer, Vienna). Its a sketch found on the revers of a more well known male portrait. None of the sources I have title it, and even the Vienna gallery avoids the issue.[4] Ceoil (talk) 18:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

No, I couldn't do better than you have.--Wetman (talk) 18:26, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Salome (disciple)Edit

Hello. In March you added a citation to a book from the "Webster's Quotations" series published by Icon Group International to this article. Unfortunately, Icon Group International is not a reliable source - their books are computer-generated, with most of the text copied from Wikipedia (most entries have [WP] by them to indicate this). I'm removing a lot of similar references; many other editors have also been deceived by these sources. User:Fences and windows 21:42, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

In fact isn't it actually the import that offends, in the sentence "Mainstream Christian writers withhold the name 'disciple' from Salome, and translate her position merely as 'follower'". I entered it merely as a supportive footnote to foolproof (one would have thought) the following statement in the main text of the article:
The canonical gospels never go so far as to label Salome a "disciple", and so mainstream Christian writers usually describe her as a "follower" of Jesus.
Thank you for alerting me: I shall watch to see whether this is just a ruse to drop the information: the [citation needed] inserted now by User:Fences and windows is often the first step in suppressing undesired text, isn't it? Perhaps I should be inspired to return, when I have time, to Salome (disciple), and edit a much enlarged section on her official marginalization, the aspect that most interests me. --21:57, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

1049 5th AvenueEdit

You said that the building is not on Carnegie Hill, but that article says otherwise. Have a great day!Jarhed (talk) 01:57, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

How could a building on the downtown side of 86th Street be in Carnegie Hill? Of course it's not. Upper East Side will do.--Wetman (talk) 02:08, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

you seem mad —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:00, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

No. But Wikipedia's accuracy is a matter of importance to me.--Wetman (talk) 15:04, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Me too, and I didn't write the previous comment, you don't seem mad to me. Have a great day!Jarhed (talk) 19:03, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Forest of GaltresEdit

Thanks from me and the wiki Victuallers (talk) 18:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for LabbuEdit

RlevseTalk 12:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

source for The Osborne ResidentsEdit

Hi, I found info for the page on The Osborne and I want help adding it because I just do not have the hang of writing the, Wiki, way yet and everyone else around here seems so good at it. Since this is largely a matter of fitting in a list and adding a source I thought maybe someone else might not mind trying it. Unless that is much more work than I realize.

I took it from the book as a list, in the order it was given, removing all of the personal notes that the author had added and one name.

Now we have a good source for the residents of the Osborne.

From A Russian Tea Room: A Love Story By Faith Stewart-Gordon Former residents of the Osborne, Leonard and Felicia Bernstein; Van Clibern; Andre Watts; Gary and Naomi Graffman; Bobby Short; Hortense Calisher; Curtis Harnack; Leo Lerman; Gray Foy; Maude Franchot; Shirley Booth; Mrs Olin Downs; Larry Byden and his two children Ellen and Josh; Lynn Redgrave and her Husban John and their two children Redgrave; Judge Joseph Proskauer; Blanche Thebom; Tom Poston; Gig Young; Harold Fonville; Eva Brown; Caroline Bell; Mike Midlin; Sylvia Miles; Louis Dalmeida; The Baroness Dalrup and her son, Just, her daughter, Ida Gro, and her grand daughter, Karen; Rose Tobias and Dane Clark.

I will still work on this myself and see how smoothly I can get this information to fit into the existing text.

Thank you,

Addiefleur (talkcontribs) 14:42, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good. I was curious as to which name you deleted. Several I can vouch for (original research!)--Wetman (talk) 17:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I have added your name-list: check the http ("edit this page") to see how I did it. Four tildes ~~~~ will enter your name after posts--Wetman (talk) 17:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads upEdit

about Edmond Thomas Quinn, Walt - my partner in the "Guide to Architectural Sculpture in America" and I have him there for his architectural work and we don't use that stuff on wikipedia but there is other material that I have on him that will slip right in. Life is good, Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 19:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

My gods...Edit

I JUST put that pic UP! Ealdgyth - Talk 23:39, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Heh heh, when I need a break I go through the latest files uploaded at Commons: lots of good images get lost in the shuffle.--23:49, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Jacopo StradaEdit

I hope you don't mind me somewhat shifting the balance of his bio. He really gets a pasting in the Titian catalogue (the exhibition included the painting). With JSTOR, you may get more here. Johnbod (talk) 00:59, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Good dish, Johnbod. I'd read that Titian considered him something of a popinjay, but I didn't know who'd recorded it. I didn't get those sly references in the portrait, either. Recently the Rijksmuseum brought together the portrait with Tintoretto's of Ottavio. Do you know anything of his numismatic work?--Wetman (talk) 01:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Nothing, i'm afraid. Actually Stroppio - oops Stoppio - Strada's rival, seems a lively figure who pops up here & there on JSTOR, mostly because many letters seem to survive. Much of the stuff on Strada & Stoppio seems to derive from Charles Hope's Titian biography & articles. He might make a nice short article. Johnbod (talk) 02:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps I should do it: I'm the perfect Wikipedian to tackle him, because no one could know less of Stoopio, er Nicolò Stoppio than I do. Wikipedia still doesn't have an article on the art market, much less history of the art market! Come on, some of you lazy lurkers!--Wetman (talk) 05:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC)--Wetman (talk) 05:12, 30 July 2010 (UTC)


Wetman, some years ago (2005), you wrote:

...An effective difference between diaspora and the situation claimed by irredentists is Urrecht, the claim to territory inhabited since "time immemorial", which is always inextricably involved in irredentism, justifying it in the eyes of its proponents.

The term 'Urrecht' struck me as very apposite, and has stuck in my mind. I was recently tempted to use it, and realized that I didn't know much about the history of the concept or of the term. A quick Google search found many uses of it in Wiki mirrors (including books plagiarizing WP) and some in discussions of German legal theory, where it appears to mean not "the claim to territory inhabited since 'time immemorial'" but rather "universal, inalienable, natural human rights". Now of course some may claim that living in the ancestral territory is an Urrecht, but.... So I am still looking for the name and history of the legal theory of "claim to territory inhabited since time immemorial". Any pointers? --Macrakis (talk) 17:10, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

C. P. Sanger's review of Anton Menger, The Right to the Whole Produce of Labour, in International Journal of Ethics, 10.2 (January 1900:268-269), begins "it is always a favourite pastime for social reformers and other revolutionists to reach for 'rights' which will support their claims" and continues "we are mercifully spared an exact discussion of the exact nature of the 'Urrecht' of German jurisprudence." Ignorant of Menger's book as I am, I suppose that German jurisprudence is more likely to address claims to territory than "universal, inalienable, natural human rights". Urrecht relating to a comparative history of specific legal law codes of post-Roman nations is discussed, apparently, in Julius G. Lautner, Zür Bedeutung der römischen Rechts für die europäische Rechtskultur und zu seiner Stellung im Rechtsunterricht (1976:102ff), since his reviewer Gunter Wesener, in Gnomon 51.8 (December 1979:801-803), counters "Auf diesem Wege solle neben gemeinsamem Urrecht und Rechtsrezeptionem auch eine 'spontane Parallelentwicklung von Rechten' aufgezeicht werden". Whether this is so or not, again, there is no question of "natural, universal" rights in reportingthe historical reception of Roman law. --Wetman (talk) 18:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand why you'd think that a legal scholar wouldn't discuss the nature of natural law in German jurisprudence.
As for Lautner, as far as I can tell from that quote without context, it seems more likely that the author is talking about the parallel development of concepts of natural law (Urrecht) and positive law than that he is talking about the rights of peoples to live in particular places. A quick Google books search seems to show that Urrecht is essentially a synonym of Naturrecht. --Macrakis (talk) 16:13, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
(If I may comment here, having been pointed to the question by Macrakis): I wouldn't know about specifics of the legal terminology, but according to the entry in Grimm's Deutsches Wörterbuch, it does appear to be originally a 19th-century term meaning something like "inalianable, natural rights" ("urrechte, die dem menschen angebornen und unveräuszerlichen rechte"). There's apparently some technical usage in 19th-century philosophy of law, and a looser, more colloquial usage meaning "inalienable right" in any number of different senses. Of course, a claimed right to an inherited homeland could easily have been subsumed under that, but that would perhaps fall more into the domain of ad hoc rhetoric than into the domain of any specifically elaborated legal theory. Fut.Perf. 15:33, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, FP. For completeness: Urrecht --Macrakis (talk) 18:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Yes, very good. And the term I was searching for isn't Vorrecht either: in the sentence above Urrecht can simply be dropped: "...the situation claimed by irredentists is based on a claim to territory inhabited since 'time immemorial'". Right? Unless, in this case, it is the stated concept that is desired to be suppressed.--Wetman (talk) 01:22, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Done. --Macrakis (talk) 14:24, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Syria and minoritiesEdit

As I was looking at Urrecht, I noticed your comment:

...But Syria by contrast is a nation-state, quite ruthless to its impotent minorities....

Having recently visited Syria, I'm not sure what you mean here. I suppose it depends on what you define as the 'nation' and what you define as 'minority'. The ruling family is Alawi (a minority itself). Christian churches not only thrive, but are unapologetic about it (with neon crosses on their bell-towers); I participated in a Kurdish Nuroj celebration; the Alawi and Druze minorities seem to support the government; the Bedouin seem to be prospering, with lots of satellite dishes. The one important majority which has disappeared from Syria is the Syrian Jews, but as far as I can tell, even they were not treated as badly as (say) the Kurds in Turkey until recently or the Greeks in Istanbul in the 1950s.

That said, yes, of course the government has been ruthless, but to political opponents, such as the Muslim Brotherhood in the Hama massacre, which of course was an extreme Sunni movement, not a national minority at all. --Macrakis (talk) 17:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I shouldn't think one would get very far in debating, if one had to defend the proposition "Modern Syrian political factions are not based on religious cultures", or that in Syria "an extreme Sunni movement" is "not a national minority at all". Was it just an oversight that you disavow "ruthless"? --Wetman (talk) 18:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
When the Muslim Brotherhood (which is indeed an offshoot of the Sunni community) engages in armed insurrection against the state, and the state reacts brutally, you would classify that as being ruthless to impotent minorities? The Taliban in Afghanistan is also largely a Sunni Pushtun movement; should we classify the war against the Taliban as a war against the Sunnis or against the Pushtuns? (Their propagandists would certainly like that.) --Macrakis (talk) 00:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Only very special pleading could offer the armed Muslim Brotherhood as an example of an impotent minority. But that's quite enough on this...--Wetman (talk) 01:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Pressure and pressurizeEdit

Simply thank you for your help! (Strike against Leopold III) José Fontaine (talk) 13:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC) And the difference is the same in French pressé (pressure), pressuriser or pressurisé (pressurize)!!!

I only did the first half of General strike against Leopold III of Belgium. Thank you for being patient with my edits.--Wetman (talk) 22:21, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


Hi there. Sorry, this is probably more about my limited skills in reeding and riting English than about your editing, but can you please kindly enlighten me as to what "impound" means in this edit? Is it a specialist meaning related to, er, wetness, rivers, dams an ting? It's just that to me it reads a little oddly - I think of things being impounded as in when, for example, they catch you at Dover with a white van full of beer and cigarettes and take it off you: "I'm sorry Sir but I am impounding your vehicle". But maybe this is itself an odd/old usage like, I don't know, bailiffs "distraining upon your chattels" or whatevertheh*ll it is they do, so in the same way perhaps your "impound" sounds odd to me because I just don't know it ... anyway, any enlightenment you can point in my direction would be very welcome. Thanks and best wishes, DBaK (talk) 13:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Impounded is what happens to waters behind a dam.--Wetman (talk) 13:56, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Gosh. They say "you learn something new every day" and, there you go, I have! Thanks and best wishes, DBaK (talk) 14:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


Your input is requested at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#Rosary beads. Thanks....Doug Coldwell talk 18:44, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

DYK for The Pond and Hallett Nature Sanctuary, Central ParkEdit

RlevseTalk 18:02, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive edits in the last few daysEdit

Wetman, I couldn't help but notice you going through a lot of my recent contributions and undoing them for no legitimate reason. If you keep this up, I'll have to report you. Someone who has locked himself down in the basement to troll Wikipedia as much as you have should be familiar with the rules by now. Perhaps it's time for you to re-read WP:3RR and/or WP:MOS. (Huey45 (talk) 05:23, 15 August 2010 (UTC))

This Huey45 is a BC/AD warrior, who covers his substitutions of BC/AD for long-established BCE/CE conventions in articles that have no bearing upon Christianity one way or the other, and has the cheek to supply them with intentionally deceptive edit summaries, as if they were done "to match the rest of the article" etc etc.. This is an abuser with a smart little mouth, whose threats bears watching by all adults. As I do not in fact "troll" Wikipedia, I shall be entertained by any "report" from such a source.--Wetman (talk) 05:55, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Wetman, I see you're still determined to have an edit war. Your conduct and personal attacks are both outrageous and unacceptable. What you've said about me is a lie and even if it were true, would not be a licence for you to break the rules. (Huey45 (talk) 06:49, 15 August 2010 (UTC))

  Please do not attack other editors, as you did at Epic Cycle. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.

  Please do not attack other editors, as you did here: Venetus A. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. (Huey45 (talk) 10:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC))

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.(Huey45 (talk) 10:59, 16 August 2010 (UTC))


Hey, Wetman, I'm the one who requested the "only purely Latin tale" footnote, and thanks for the citation. I don't think that is a simple statement, and I've left a note on the talk page explaining why. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:18, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah Cynwolfe, if you think I'm sounding crabby, look just above. I generally try not to add text that isn't accompanied by a footnote. My additions to Wikipedia now are just reports of my reading notes: it's the only way.--Wetman (talk) 16:41, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
I think it's impossible to sound too crabby on WP these days, given the time-wasting crap serious editors like you have to put up with, and believe me, I understand if you were to think that my request for a citation were of the 'wandering around looking for somethin' to pick at' variety. My question following your providing a citation was twofold: the statement in the lead section doesn't seem supported by the article text following; the phrase "Latin tale" might not be an accurate representation of the source, which might also have said "Roman myth" or "Italic folktale" or blah blah, since I found "Latin tale" ambiguous. Believe me, I think you're one of the good guys, if that juvenile way of putting it suffices in shorthand. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Oh, and coming from you, Cynwolfe, it certainly does!--Wetman (talk) 23:47, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Toot BaldonEdit

Next time I upload a image ready to add it to an article and you jump in and do it instead before I've had time to finish a related edit, why not do a tidier job by making the image the right size and putting it in the empty "image" space in the infobox where it looks neater? Then why not check the log of my recent contributions of images to Wikimedia, see that I'd uploaded four images of Toot Baldon, and add all four of them to the article?

Alternatively, why not leave me to finish my own contributions and you stick to making your own? The Toot Baldon article didn't say so at the time, but the parish is the site of the 1965 Little Baldon Hastings accident. I had uploaded images to illustrate both articles and was then editing the accident article while you were diving in to use one of the photo's that I'd uploaded for the village/parish article.

I realise Wikimedia and Wikipedia are shared undertakings, no editor has ownership of an individual article or image and we all have the right to edit and preferably improve each other's work. Nor have you broken any Wikipedia:Etiquette rule to my knowledge. And I should abide by the rules to assume good faith and not make personal attacks.

However, I don't see it as gracious to interlope during another editor's work, unless they are adding controversial or unsuitable material that needs immediate remedy. You made your scruffy job of adding one of the images to the Toot Baldon article only half an hour after I'd uploaded it. This is not an unreasonable amount of time for an editor to be busy completing a related task before coming back to add images to the destination article as intended.

So next time why not either wait and see, or ask, if the editor has plans of their own for that image? Take it not from me but from Alexander Pope that Fools Rush In Where Angels Fear to Tread. Motacilla (talk) 23:20, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Many good Commons images get lost in the shuffle. I tried several ways to fit your image in the infobox but failed. Sometimes I get in good editors' way, for which I am sorry: you'll have fixed my little error. No harm intended. Often, though, I save good images for the encyclopedia, and hope to continue to do so. --Wetman (talk) 23:46, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Ptolemy, Diogenes, and AlexanderEdit

Quote: "One of Diogenes' pupils, Onesicritus, later joined Alexander and will have been the original source of this story, embellished in the retelling, which appears in Ptolemy (14.2)"

Is this a mistake? Ptolemy I Soter didn't write anything did he? I thought maybe it could be the astronomer Ptolemy, but I don't know of any works by him which contain 14 books. Singinglemon (talk) 00:24, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. I'm cribbing from Robin Lane Fox's notes, as I cited them: Ptolemy's life of Alexander was a major source that may or may not have used the royal diaries. Like all the first-hand sources for Alexander it survives only in quotes and excerpts in other classical works, notably Arrian, who Lane Fox (1993:500) says (as others do) leaned heavily on Ptolemy. The sources I quoted directly from Lane Fox (1993:511), very condensed notes: I reproduced them as he gives them, without puzzling over them. I haven't read L. Pearson, The Lost Histories of Alexander the Great (New York, 1960) but in general all remarks about Ptolemy's lost history are made through the lens of Arrian's usage of it, to the extent that R. M. Errington can discuss "Bias in Ptolemy's History of Alexander" (The Classical Quarterly, New Series, 19.2 [November 1969], pp. 233-242), which I have read, with its talk of "Arrian's (Ptolemy's) version" of this or that event and conclusions that events not in Arrian were presumably not in Ptolemy. My impression is that Fox means "Ptolemy as found in Arrian" but, as for "(14.2)"— was I too sloppy in repeating but not pursuing my sources?--Wetman (talk) 01:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for reply, I missed the bit in the page Ptolemy I Soter which refers to his lost writings (helpfully in the section entitled Successor). It is the cryptic "14.2" bit which confused me - I don't know what it means. If Fox does mean "Ptolemy as found in Arrian," then it seems a bit confusing to refer to them as separate sources. I can certainly find the Arrian, 7.2.1, which refers to Diogenes and Alexander: [5]. A re-wording might be needed along the lines of "the story is told in Arrian's Anabasis Alexandri which in turn is derived from the lost account by Ptolemy I Soter." Singinglemon (talk) 19:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Would you fix it just that way? As I like to say in real life, "I've already told you more than I know."--Wetman (talk) 19:07, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

If you have Landseer's Alexander and Diogenes to upload to Commons, please do. Uncle G (talk) 02:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

  • I would, but I don't, and so often when I've uploaded an image a bot tells me I haven't done it right and it's to be deleted. My e-competence is limited. --Wetman (talk) 02:44, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
    • No worries. I ask because when I went looking for the image, your name turned up as the uploader of some related ones. Uncle G (talk) 03:16, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Does Lane Fox address the argument by Lynch that this whole episode should be "banished from the domain of history"? I've found a 1996 source that does. Uncle G (talk) 05:05, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

No, he simply relates it, with the suggestion that "Were I not Alexander..." is an embellishment.--Wetman (talk) 10:51, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Witham ShieldEdit

Thanks for the polish, a real improvement. Your changes are most welcome. Victuallers (talk) 17:42, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

That's encouraging; thank you Victuallers.--Wetman (talk) 17:46, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentsEdit

Just curious but why did you remove all those posts? Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 21:10, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Yikes. I meant only to add the following, wthrough the usual edit conflicts.
If this account is to be unblocked in future, unblocking should be made on the basis of a thorough survey of his previous edits, leaving aside his present furious reaction and denials at being caught. I doubt that a survey will show that the encyclopedia will ever be improved by User:Huey45's presence, but I am certainly not the one to make any further comment in this case.--Wetman (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
The current version seems to have repaired my gaffe.--Wetman (talk) 21:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Figured it was just an error. Enter CBW, waits for audience applause, not a sausage. 21:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Little ThetfordEdit

Thank you for your edits to the Little Thetford lead. Whislt I am aware that a 1999 settlement discovery nearer Ely was also thought to be Cratendune, the statement that you removed from the lead is referenced with a reliable source within the body of the article. Would it be possible for you to reconsider this edit please? --Senra (talk) 22:16, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Oop. and the lost 7th century Anglo-Saxon village of Cratendune may be nearby was what I took out. So, do give a reference (in fact the text had none at that point, or I wouldn't have been so bold) to the best assessment of where Cratendune was, then, and correct the statement in the article Ely, Cambridgeshire that says The city's origins lay in the foundation of an abbey in 673 AD a mile (1.6 km) to the north of the village of Cratendune on the Isle of Ely with your same better reference. And perhaps you'd check the reference Exning is close to the Isle of Ely where, at Cratendune, Saint Augustine of Canterbury himself (d. c604) is stated (in Liber Eliensis)...etc etc etc in the article Eni of East Anglia. Thus, bit by bit, we hoist Wikipedia on its own bootlaces. Perhaps Cratendune shouldn't be a mere redirect to Ely and deserves your brief report on where various texts and archaeology locate it.--Wetman (talk) 23:08, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Hang on. Sarcasm Irony is most emphatically not warranted here. I never said I had a better reference. I bow down to your superior Wikipedia experience but I am absolutely certain I do not like your tone here. The statement and the lost 7th century Anglo-Saxon village of Cratendune may be nearby stands within the lead fully supported in the body as per WP:LEAD, WP:RS and WP:V. I ask you once again to please reconsider your edit --Senra (talk) 23:35, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
You must be uneasy, that you detect sarcasm. Just reread my text, won't you, and decide what you'd like to contribute. Or not. I've taken the trouble to hunt out and give you the examples that— perhaps— led me astray. I was too much a gentleman to point out that your memory that the deleted phrase was "referenced with a reliable source within the body of the article" was at fault, for it was not referenced. Otherwise, I repeat without irony, I wouldn't have been so bold. A collegial suggestion: if you make a common practice of quoting Wikilaws at your betters, you might develop a reputation as a vulgarian: in future, I'd be very sparing of smacking old editors about the head with any raw mackerels you may be carrying. --Wetman (talk) 23:50, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Wetman's resources of patience and forbearance are in perennially short supply. Principles of triage require that no more of these reserves be expended than any one situation requires. Your understanding is appreciated.
I am uncertain how to proceed. I will be seeking someones helps to aid me in addressing your incivility and unreasonable attitude here --Senra (talk) 09:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
I see that you have reconsidered your original edit even after saying that my memory was at fault. Your apology, implied in that action, is accepted. On my part, I apologise for being too defensive and for not being explicit in my first message to you above. It would have saved us both drama --Senra (talk) 10:35, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Cratendune still awaits. If you'll begin it, I'll see what I can add.--Wetman (talk) 16:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Draft of Cratendune begun but expect slow process due other commitments --Senra (talk) 23:44, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Holinshed's ChroniclesEdit

This is a redirect to Raphael Holinshed which until I removed the copyvio today was mainly not a bio about about the Chronicles. I think it needs its own article (with, as you said 2 years ago, the most popular short title 'Holinshed's Chronicles', not the long official one). What do you think? Dougweller (talk) 10:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Holinshed's Chronicles is a major lacuna: any student reading Shakespeare will eventually come looking for it. Other than the chronicles, Raphael Holinshed is a very minor figure indeed.--Wetman (talk) 16:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank YouEdit

"This kind of trash talk is not encouraged at Wikipedia. My apologies, Dejvid, on Varlaam's behalf" I wasn't going to lose my cool over Varlaam's comments but you words helped to make that less likely. Much appreciated.16:11, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Often it's best to overleap the intransigent and cut to the chase. You'll find many delightful, well-informed and civilized editors. Some with a sense of humor even.--Wetman (talk) 16:22, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


the hashup of the arms is less intelligible that the blazoning: set a translation in a ftnote if it's really needed


Hashup? I thought I was making it more clear. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 19:42, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm forgetting that heraldry really is opaque to the general reader. Let's work at Rouen on a translation of all the terms of the blazoning in a clear fashion. I'll start and you improve my edit... Okay, I've edited "On a red background a haloed white pascal lamb looking back over its shoulder (contorny) holds a white banner bearing a gold cross; above, a broad blue band across the top bears 3 gold fleurs de lis". Doesn't that seem better?--Wetman (talk) 19:55, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


I am happy that the article, User:Senra/Cratendune, can be moved to main-space at Cratendune now, if you are too. Note that I do not consider it complete yet. I have taken the liberty of adding hatboxes to the talk page; one category to the article page; and adding the entry to List of lost settlements in the United Kingdom#Cambridgeshire article. Feel free to make any further additions before it goes to main-space then DYK --Senra (talk) 13:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it does seem well started enough to give every editor a chance at it. In fact it looks more than just presentable. That's a category I'd overlooked. --Wetman (talk) 14:48, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. Page move request has been posted --Senra (talk) 15:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
I'd have done it myself if I'd had the tools and were competent that way.--Wetman (talk) 15:59, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Your suggestion to create Cratendune was a good one and despite you moving yourself from the DYK nomination it received more than 7,600 hits; my first 5,000+ DYK. Thank you --Senra (Talk) 17:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Ha! see? I couldn't share the credit: it was your subject.--Wetman (talk) 17:13, 1 September 2010 (UTC)


Do you use Firefox or IE? Any thoughts on Firefox?--Doug Coldwell talk 11:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Good Queen Bess and Bad Horrible ArchitectureEdit

I remember ages ago, you advising against categorising all buildings, it seems your words have returned to haunt me [6] Does any form of neo-Tudor architecture really exist? I am beginning to think not, your dispartial (is that a word?) opinion is required. The more I am reading about Tudor Revival, the more I am tinking it is a state of mind rather than architecture - which came first: arts and crafts, the chicken or the egg? I am begining to think that what I think of as "Tudorbethan" (nasty kitsch black and white) and "Tudor Revival" (rather nice brickwork, canted walls and leaded windows) are in fact both just a poor or rich man's version of arts and crafts. Looking at many of the American buildings in these categories, there also seem to be unexplained norther European half timbered influences. This is al a litle philosophical so any opinions are very welcome, I'm feeling a little lost.  Giacomo  18:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, Categories at Wikipedia, Giano! they are no more than inflated lists, lists that get posted at the top of every marginally relevant page, to give a passing glow of warmth to the listmaker. You should never get involved with Categories, just as I'm sure you'd never get involved with lists, and what to exclude from them. Aren't lists like clubs? defined by what's excluded?
I personally like "Jacobethan" as an ironical style designation, because it nicely expresses the jumble of sources and the free play of their application. "Tudorbethan" doesn't actually express to me anything beyond what the category "Tudor Revival" implies. Lots of those late medieval details, like jettied upper storeys, casement windows and half-timbered construction, passed into country vernaculars and were taken up by Arts and Crafts builders as combining warmth, quaint charm and authenticity— fantasies of "Merry England" combined with high-minded progressive socialist ideals. A lot of the structures in the categories Tudorbethan/Tudor Revival, especially the dreadfully minimalish American examples, really fall into a category invented in 1948 by Osbert Lancaster (who invented "Pont Street Dutch") in Pillar to Post: English architecture without tears (save tears of joy) — "Pseudish". Drayneflete Revealed and Pillar to Post introduced me long ago to the history of architecture. --Wetman (talk) 19:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Queen Anne styled mansion located in South Yarra, Victoria.
I don't agree with Wetman on the usefulness of categories, but I rather do on "Tudorbethan" - which I think just tries to distinguish between good and bad (or expensive and cheap) Tudor Revival, & is not a well known term in America I think. At least these aren't in as bad a mess as "Queen Anne style" which is different on every continent, & most examples of which would probably have induced yet another miscarriage in their namesake. Johnbod (talk) 19:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Regarding "Tudoresque et al", I have decided to bow out of the debate (for the present second or so), but I tend to agree. I'm often acused of being anti-American, which any simple bloodtest or DNA will prove is complete piffle (I have a mixture of German/Italian and distant-Greek blood) and a dam with an American passport - which in my book makes me as American (in typical breeding) as Mr Obama - who I suspect may not have some of those ingredients, unlike Charlemagne and myself. Anyhow, I digress, neither am I anti-American architecture, but some of its Wikipedia-noted buildings ("Historic Homes") are to put it kindly, decidedly dodgy in architectural concept - like its people (and myself) it seems to draw from a wide field of European and other influences - so sticking them in a siple box, seems plain wrong. As for "Queen Anne" that to me is a total confusion. In England, beatiful 18th century manors are "Queen Anne" and also rather odd tall arty 1890-1920 town houses are too - see the deeply pretentious Bedford Park, London, to confirm.  Giacomo  19:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
In the US, the National Register of Historic Places makes sure that every county in the nation has a "historic place", even if it's a hardware store built in 1911 in "Renaissance Revival style". Sentimental democracy: principles of "fair play" incongrously applied. As for me, I'm a New Yorker, and an American second. Sometimes a distant second.--Wetman (talk) 19:55, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
The National Register, while noble in concept, has become a repository for buildings notable chiefly for the owners' successful efforts at obtaining tax credits than for much architectural or historic merit. Nevertheless, some gems turn up in the dross in the unlikeliest places. Since my professional status seems to imply some ability as an arbiter of style terminology, I am frequently asked to pigeonhole individual buildings. Because something like Category:Moorish Revival - Neo-Venetian - Second Empire - Ranch seems unsuitable, I'm often tempted to recommend that they be placed in Category:Hodgepodge or Category:Whimsical employment of random elements of several decorative styles and be done with it rather than trying to shoehorn them into something only somewhat suitable. Acroterion (talk) 22:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I am begining to despair now, I see Category:Palladian Revival architecture has just arrived now, including sub-cats for every USA State, looks like every state must have one. My question is how can one have a revival of a revival when the original revival has never gone away. Palladianism is an accepted style base on Palladio, its all encompassing, so it cannot be revived or even resuscitated because its unkillable. Very mystifying.  Giacomo  07:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • I had lunch today with one of the UK's most eminent art/architecture historians (a wish for personal anonymity rather than reluctance to namedrop and socially elevate myself prevents me saying who) and I brought up the current Wikipedia Tudorbethan v Tudor revival debate ((I actually said I had always wondered what the difference was - he probably thought (quite rightly) I had a very dull life)) and according to him "Tudorbethan" is best described and termed today as "Mock Tudor" because it both mocks and emulates, but makes no attempt to revive or reproduce the concepts - it's purely decorative, whereas "Tudor revivival" reproduces the concepts and ideals, but with modern concessions hidden. What do you think of that, I'm not going to launch a Category: Mock Tudor, as it would cause endless debate over each pages worthiness for one or the other cat, but it's an interesting view.  Giacomo  20:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
The late mother of Lady Catherine, in happier days before the Risorgimento.
:*Ah, Mr Wetman how clever you are. Dearest Mamma, dressed for opening the church bazaar at Little Scrotum, her simplicity of dress endeared her to all, while it was said her sweet, gentle countenance could make the birds fall from the trees. Lady Catherine de Burgh (the Late) (talk) 18:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
*Then it wasn't the particular quality of her voice, Lady Catherine, that felled the birds? Was it the comte d'Orsay who described her "sweet, artless-seeming contralto, with a distinct warble"? ::*Oh, dear Alfie, such a close friend of beloved Mamma's, was ever a man so architecturally gifted? Lady Catherine de Burgh (the Late) (talk) 21:21, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I like the distinction formed in terms of intent: where would that distinction place the Woolworth Building, I wonder? (With leisure for such wondering, I too must have a dull life.) Mock Gothic? Or even Neo-Gothick?--Wetman (talk) 20:35, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Pending changes/Vote commentEdit

As you commented in the pending closure discussion I am notifying you that the Wikipedia:Pending changes/Vote comment is now open and will be for two weeks, discussion as required can continue on the talkpage. Thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 23:27, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Water of the Nile?Edit

Wetman, I think I may be too proletarian for these mansions. What's "Oeuil de nil", please? (sp?) It's in the "The first floor" section. [/me toys with the idea of writing "green" instead.] Regards, Bishonen | talk 22:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC).

It's pale blue no it's pale green no it's pale blue no it's.--Wetman (talk) 22:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Oh, pink? I see. Bishonen | talk 00:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC).
And "Eau" (H2O) of course. Johnbod (talk) 23:28, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, guys. Bishonen | talk 00:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC).
  • Well, I had to leave eau de nil as a redlink. Anybody feel like writing a stub for it? Johnbod, this is in Giano's new article Basildon Park, HINT HINT. Bishonen | talk 20:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC).
Variations of green, or the less well-developed/fanciful Variations of blue is where it belongs I think, but that is very technical, with hex numbers & god knows what. I've asked at the green talk. Johnbod (talk) 20:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, but Wetman's fixed it with a footnote in the Basildon Park article itself (note 49). There is a green talk... ? Bishonen | talk 21:17, 28 August 2010 (UTC).

edit conflict, sorryEdit

Sorry, Wetman, it looks like our edits crossed each other. I'll lay off this article (Biens_nationaux) for today, so have a go at it. --Dyuku (talk) 03:29, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I know, I know, I tried to fix the conflict. Did I step on anything you'd added? I'm finished for now, honest. Biens nationaux are looking much better.--Wetman (talk) 03:49, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Throne roomEdit

Do you think someone humorless and furious will be here momentarily to berate me and perhaps to report me to the hall proctor, in hopes of a scolding for me? I hope not. I just couldn't resist.--Wetman (talk) 06:08, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Aqueduct of the GierEdit

RlevseTalk 18:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

DYK for PaduasoyEdit

RlevseTalk 00:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Lee and KennedyEdit

RlevseTalk 00:03, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

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