User talk:Rockycape/Archives/Archive01

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September 2018

Hello, I'm Bennv3771. I noticed that you made one or more changes to an article, Downball, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so! If you need guidance on referencing, please see the referencing for beginners tutorial, or if you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Please work on the article in the draft or user space first. Bennv3771 (talk) 02:01, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Downball (disambiguation) (September 18)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Matthew hk was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Downball (disambiguation) and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to Draft:Downball (disambiguation), click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{db-self}}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
• If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page.
• You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Matthew_hk tc 12:06, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

AfC notification: Draft:Downball has a new comment

I've left a comment on your Articles for Creation submission, which can be viewed at Draft:Downball. Thanks! Robert McClenon (talk) 22:13, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Robert_Mclenon , Thanks for your question. Foursquare and Downball are most commonly known as different games.Rockycape (talk) 02:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Downball has been accepted

Downball, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. If your account is more than four days old and you have made at least 10 edits you can create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer.

• If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk.
• If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider .

Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia!

Robert McClenon (talk) 04:29, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Down-ball

The article Down-ball has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Does not seem to be notable (may not even exist as described). Searches for a reliable WP:RS fail. The term is absent in Google Scholar and Books, on the Web used to describe particular situation in handball and the Four square game, but never in this context. The description on the site of Melbourne University appears to be a typo: the rules do nto describe any wall use (it seems that the website designer confused this one with "Wall ball")

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Викидим (talk) 06:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

"|concern = Does not seem to be notable (may not even exist as described). Searches for a reliable WP:RS fail. The term is absent in Google Scholar and Books, on the Web used to describe particular situation in handball and the Four square game, but never in this context. The description on the site of Melbourne University appears to be a typo: the rules do nto describe any wall use (it seems that the website designer confused this one with "Wall ball")

|timestamp = 20240621061910

|nom = Викидим

|help = off"

Discussion on your concern about Down-ball page

Thank you for your review and raising a concern. I will explain why your concern is unfounded.

You state that Down-ball "may not even exist as described" but offer no evidence other than the your searches for a reliable WP:RS.

You state that "The description on the site of Melbourne University appears to be a typo: the rules do nto describe any wall use (it seems that the website designer confused this one with "Wall ball"".

You ignore the first reference of the article https://ctac.esrc.unimelb.edu.au/biogs/E000139b.htm which clearly mentions the (brick wall) and tennis ball.

You ignore the video of down-ball (main wikipedia down-ball article which shows down-ball in action and will go some way to demonstrate that down-ball is unique as a ball/wall game as the ball must bye bit down to the ground and bounce before hitting the wall. This is distinct to wall ball which is more akin to the racquet game squash where the ball must hit the ball on the full.

Again, thank you for your review and raising a concern. I have demonstrated that your concern is unfounded and have removed the proposed deletion and added this to the talk page. Rockycape (talk) 19:25, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I had to revert your original change since it ruined the article formatting. I then deleted the WP:PROD WP:hatnote again since you have objected to it. I am not convinced by your arguments, and started the WP:AfD procedure. I have checked both links before PRODding:

1. The (first) university source appears to confuse two different games: the "Wall ball" with a wall, described on the same site, and the "Downball" with four squares. This appears to me a typo made by a Web designer
2. The (second) museum source clearly states on p. 40 that Downball and Four squares is the same game. Note that the action now is on the AfD page referenced below.

Викидим (talk) 20:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Викидим - I think your position would benefit by consideration of the context of schoolyard games more generally.

Schoolyard games such as Down-ball are primarily passed down to new generations in the schoolyard and are generally not recorded in the literature or on the web to a large extent like main stream sports for example.

To be a useful contributor to the Down-ball wikipedia page I would ask that you change your approach from being a sceptic and pushing for deletion to helping to find better references whether they be in the literature or on the web.

I'll certainly be working to find better references myself. Down-ball deserves a page on wikipedia as a schoolyard game enjoyed by many school kids today. Rockycape (talk) 01:01, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

You ignore the first reference of the article https://ctac.esrc.unimelb.edu.au/biogs/E000139b.htm which clearly mentions the (brick wall) and tennis ball.

The text I am referring to at the above link is:

"Downball is a game where the first player bounces the ball on ground, to rebound off wall. The second player must hit ball the same way after only one bounce. Everyone must do the same until they miss - then they are out.

Details

At School 14

Players: Several

Boys and Girls

Age: 10-11

Props: Tennis Ball and Brick Wall"

You ignore the video of down-ball (main wikipedia down-ball article which shows down-ball in action and will go some way to demonstrate that down-ball is unique as a ball/wall game as the ball must bye bit down to the ground and bounce before hitting the wall. This is distinct to wall ball which is more akin to the racquet game squash where the ball must hit the ball on the full. Rockycape (talk) 01:12, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Dear colleague, this seems to be a WP:WRONGVENUE for a deletion discussion, as not many people will see it here. I will stick to the AfD page referenced below. Викидим (talk) 06:21, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Down-ball for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Down-ball is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Down-ball until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Викидим (talk) 19:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

This article was just deleted by closer ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Drmies ) without warning. As per wikipedia:

"Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision."

Unfortunately it is not possible to talk with Drmies on User_talk due to some restrictions in place. Rockycape (talk) 01:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

email to Drmies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Down-ball

Hi Drmies,

This AfD and article Down-ball ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Down-ball ) was recently deleted by closer ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Drmies ) without warning. As per wikipedia:

"Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision."

Unfortunately it is not possible to talk with Drmies on User_talk due to some restrictions in place.

Please add this as a topic on your User_talk and allow me to contribute to this topic.

Thanks,

Rockycape Rockycape (talk) 01:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I closed an AfD. There is no "warning" necessary, nor to I see any need to discuss the matter since the matter is resolved, as far as I am concerned, and I am sure the participants in the AfD agree. There was no mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding. If you like, you can try your luck again at Wikipedia:Deletion review. Oh, instead of emailing me, you can just ping me--thanks. Drmies (talk) 01:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@Drmies: I'd like to give you the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind the decision to close the AfD especially since the creation of an AfD for a newly created page is contentious. Rockycape (talk) 02:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@Drmies Also why won't you add this topic to your User_talk? Rockycape (talk) 02:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

How am I meant to initiate a Wikipedia:Deletion review with you being the person who deleted it, if I can't post on your User_talk? Rockycape (talk) 06:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Sheesh. Just post it and don't notify me. For crying out loud, I'm the one who told you where to go. Just post it and get it over with. Drmies (talk) 13:17, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh, and thank you for the opportunity to clarify my reasoning. Drmies (talk) 13:19, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@DrmiesI have listed Down-ball on Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 July 4 Rockycape (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

One of the hardest things as wikipedia new page contributor is gathering support from other editors. This is something I have failed to do spectacularly. It's been an uphill battle to create a non-controversial page about a schoolyard ball and wall game. I genuinely don't know the answer of how to create a non-controversial page about a schoolyard ball and wall game and gather support of other editors.

I thought it was by addressing arguments and making my case but others are very quick to shout badger-er. If others genuinely have advice on how to build support for a new page then I'd like to hear your thoughts. Rockycape (talk) 00:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I was expected to argue for the page I created to be kept in this Deletion review. That I have argued strongly has been used against me. That's the rub I guess.

One of the options of this Deletion review appears to be for additional references/sources to be added to the Down-ball page. I've been doing this in the background. I can't add these anywhere yet as I can't even see the deleted content, but I plan to add these to a new draft if I'm not locked out of doing so.

I'll add "Allow recreation" content below here.Rockycape (talk) 04:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. Hyndman, B., Mahony, L., Te Ava, A., Smith, S. and Nutton, G., 2017. Complementing the Australian primary school Health and Physical Education (HPE) curriculum: exploring children's HPE learning experiences within varying school ground equipment contexts. _Education 3-13_, _45_(5), pp.613-628.

2. Hunt, H., 2007. Counterintuitive problems in dynamics and vibration.

3. Hyndman, B. and Chancellor, B., 2017. Are secondary school environments conducive for active play opportunities? An objective assessment across Australian secondary school playgrounds. _International Journal of Play_, _6_(1), pp.40-52.

4. McKinty, J., 2016. Losing our marbles: What's happening to children's folklore in schools?. _Play and Folklore_, (66), pp.37-44.

5. McKinty, J., THE HIDDEN HERITAGE OF THE SCHOOLYARD.

6. https://ctac.esrc.unimelb.edu.au/biogs/E000139b.htm

7. https://ctac.esrc.unimelb.edu.au/biogs/E000415b.htm

Rockycape (talk) 04:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I was expected to argue for the page I created to be kept in this Deletion review. That I have argued strongly has been used against me. That's the rub I guess. no, you were not. That is not what deletion review is for. Adding sources such as Facebook and TripAdvisor are not going to help you. I really really think you need to move on or you're going to get more frustrated. Star Mississippi 14:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I've continued to find new references/sources including the ones you mention and other references/sources too. I plan to add just the quality references/sources to the draft. I haven't started looking at books/magazines for kids as yet but this may be a great source of references. Thank you for responding back and particularly for looking out for my wellbeing in the advice you've provided. Rockycape (talk) 21:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

It looks like you have a partially right idea here. If you think you have good sources that can be used to create an article about the game down-ball that you have such a strong interest in, there is no barrier to creating a new draft.

But please consider how you evaluate your sources. The sources you used before were considered inadequate and if you don't offer "better" sources, the new draft will be doomed to the same fate as the old article.

I've tried looking at some of the sources you've listed here and some of them are behind sufficiently strong paywalls that I have not yet been able to read them. Of the others, here are a few comments:

• Hunt - only mentions that downball is a game
• McKinty - Hidden Heritage - talks about downball without mentioning use of a wall
• McKinty - Losing Marbles - talks generally about multiple ball games, including several handball games, mentioning four square, downball and wall ball but not specific about their differences
• U Melbourne blog entries - identifying games named downball and wall ball
• also U Melbourne blog entry https://ctac.esrc.unimelb.edu.au/biogs/E000066b.htm for four square including many variants

So here's the problem as I see it. You want to identify "down-ball" as a distinct game that a) has a hyphen, b) is played against a wall. It is vital to your goal that you find sources that meet those two criteria and provide enough specifics about how it is played to distinguish it from the other games in this general family of handball games. None of the sources that I've examined so far appear to useful towards that end.

I remember reading in your article about specific rules in how the game is played that distinguish the game from others but the source for those was, as best I remember, based on your own experience, not a published source. If you do offer a published source, it will need to support your name for the game and give sufficiently specific details about the gameplay to make it clear how it is distinguished. As there is now apparently a Downball Association that tries to oversee and regularize its specific version of downball, deviations from that standardized game will need substantial backup to establish that these variations are somehow new versions in need of recognition as distinct games rather than local instances of "not following all the rules" or "calling an existing game by another name". I expect, as an object of research, scholars would want to see how variations in rules diffuse across schools or localities - they have to identify individual elements of variation to be able to follow this process.

Please don't go away with the impression that other editors are denying the existence of your version of down-ball. Existence and notability are largely orthogonal here. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:00, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi jmcgnh, thank you, I really appreciate you taking a good look and reviewing this on this User Talk:Rockycape.

There are several problems with having a Down-ball wikipedia page but I think most of these problems have been overcome for other similar pages and so these problems should not be insurmountable.

Problem 01: The best sources for Down-ball list two different games that still to this day share the same name "Downball". Downball is played with a ball on the ground/floor within a larger painted square that is divided into further four smaller painted squares. Downball is not played against a wall. Down-ball is played against a wall with a ball.

My solution to this was that I created a disambiguation page that distinguished between Downball and Down-ball. That page was deleted when Down-ball was deleted.

Problem 02: Two businesses/enterprises, Downball Australia ( downballaustralia.com.au ) and Handball Australia ( handballaustralia.com.au ) exist. ( I don't know but they may have chosen those names because an unrelated business already had foursquare.com ) Downball Australia uses Downball wikipedia page to promote their business. - I don't see this as a problem for the creation of Down-ball page. However it has become a problem today when a wikipedia editor has singlehandedly decides to create a redirection from Down-ball to Downball. Rockycape (talk) 07:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Asking for the deleted article to be restored as a draft may not help. None of that material is based on the kinds of sources that you will need to successfully write a new draft. Once you have suitable sources, the draft will have to be started from scratch, written based on these new sources. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 12:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your additional comment here. Rockycape (talk) 18:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Downball (wall and ball game)

@shirt58 - if you can still get a copy of Down-ball page which is deleted that would be appreciated. Rockycape (talk) 11:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

if this is provided, I firmly believe it needs to be move protected so it's reviewed by independent editors before it returns to mainspace. Otherwise we'll be right back at AfD and in this cycle again. Star Mississippi 12:36, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Final warning

You are badgering and bludgeoning the discussion and comments like this are not helpful. Knock it off, or you will lose access to edit the DRV and potentially a draft. Star Mississippi 01:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Star Mississippi, I apologise unreservedly for the comment and have removed it now. regards, Rockycape (talk) 02:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Unnecessarily labeling an opponent as a badgerer in an argument can undermine the rigor of the argument

Removed AI generated content

Rockycape (talk) 03:07, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Are you using ChatGPT or a similar tool to help write your comments? —Alalch E. 11:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes - to help write these comments above. Rockycape (talk) 12:55, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Alright, please don't use it until you feel like you have gained substantial experience editing and discussing things with other editors. Please see this essay about the issues with the use of such tools on Wikipedia. —Alalch E. 15:19, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes ok - I see some of the potential problems as discussed in the essay. Thanks for your help again. Rockycape (talk) 15:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

You are badgering the others and bludgeoning the discussion and have throughout since you don't respect consensus. It's not unnecessary. Continuing down this path has one end, a block from editing about Downball entirely. It's your choice. Star Mississippi 12:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

On reflection I think I need to and will re-read the wikipedia section on Badgering Wikipedia:Don't bludgeon the process. Also I've removed recent pings now. I'll stop pinging anyone who has complained about badgering as this seems like the best course of action. If the same person gets back in contact with me in future then I'll resume conversing again but not initiate contact myself. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, it's admirable that you look out for others the way you do. regards,Rockycape (talk) 12:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

July 2024

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion (but never when editing articles), please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either:

1. Add four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment, or
2. With the cursor positioned at the end of your comment, click on the signature button located above the edit window.

This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is necessary to allow other editors to easily see who wrote what and when.

Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:53, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Rockycape,

Just a reminder to sign all talk page comments as well as remarks on noticeboards or AFD deletion discussions. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:04, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Liz, thank you for your reminder on my talk page to sign talk page comments. Rockycape (talk) 21:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Downball (wall and ball game) - appreciate if you'd taking a look at my draft

Draft:Downball (wall and ball game)

@Shirt58 - you mentioned in passing you've played downball before. I don't know whether you played downball (squares game) OR downball (wall and ball game)? I'd appreciate if you'd taking a look at my draft as am keen to have a conversation about references?Rockycape (talk) 02:39, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Rockycape.

First of all, the references are the most important thing about whether a topic merits a Wikipedia article. No "significant coverage" in "reliable" "secondary" sources equals no Wikipedia article. What I myself remember plays no part in making a "notability" decision.

That said, sure, I'd be happy to have a look at the draft and also tell you what I remember about playing a playground game I knew as "handball" in Canberra and "four-square" in Hobart.

Is it OK with you if I look at the draft first?

Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:50, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Shirt58: Hi Pete, that's be great if you'd have a look at the draft first. thanks, Rockycape Rockycape (talk) 10:10, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Pete, some context on references about Downball (wall and ball game) draft. When I created the page "Downball" a number of years ago it was about Downball (wall and ball game). More recently the page was changed substantially by proponents from the business Downball Australia which is a Downball (squares game) company that organises competitions in schools.

Not so long ago, I created "Down-ball" page which lived for a couple of weeks that was nominated for AfD which resulted in the page being deleted. Since "Down-ball" was deleted I've been finding better references.

Most recently I have been recreating that originating page as Draft:Downball (wall and ball game) and adding the better references there. Currently the best references for Downball are coming from "Chinese handball". I need to head into the State Library and expect to find some good references there. The issue of two popular games both called "Downball" is something that seems to confuse and confound any discussion here on either game. User:Rockycape (talk) 21:15, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Down-ball Redirect target changed from Four square to Downball

Down-ball Redirect target changed from Four square to Downball Latest revision as of 14:34, 5 July 2024 Rockycape (talk) 20:45, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Викидим nominated AfD with votes

For the avoidance of doubt, I personally did spend some time trying to locate a good source before WP:PRODding (I consider myself somewhat of an meta:inclusionist and actually prefer keeping articles), and found none. Wishing you better luck, Викидим (talk)[[1]]

Page	Vote date	Vote	Result
Oggcast	July 08, 2024	Delete (Nom)	Delete
Down-ball	June 21, 2024	Delete (Nom)	Delete[1]
Cypriot Futsal Cup	June 20, 2024	Delete (Nom)	Delete
May the odds be ever in your favor	June 15, 2024	Delete (Nom)	Merge
Descending solid coalitions	May 14, 2024	Delete (Nom)	Delete
Order of Accendo	April 20, 2024	Delete (Nom)	Delete
Robam Neary Chea Chuor	April 17, 2024	Delete (Nom)	Merge
Sydney Cooke	April 12, 2024	Delete (Nom)	Delete
ETopps	March 31, 2024	Redirect	Redirect
Snap table	November 12, 2023	Delete (Nom)	Delete

Rockycape (talk) 07:37, 22 July 2024 (UTC)