Rockycape

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September 2018

Hello, I'm Bennv3771. I noticed that you made one or more changes to an article, Downball, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so! If you need guidance on referencing, please see the referencing for beginners tutorial, or if you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Please work on the article in the draft or user space first. Bennv3771 (talk) 02:01, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Downball (disambiguation) (September 18)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Matthew hk was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Downball (disambiguation) and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to Draft:Downball (disambiguation), click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{db-self}}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
• If you need any assistance, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk or on the reviewer's talk page.
• You can also use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Matthew_hk tc 12:06, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

AfC notification: Draft:Downball has a new comment

I've left a comment on your Articles for Creation submission, which can be viewed at Draft:Downball. Thanks! Robert McClenon (talk) 22:13, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Robert_Mclenon , Thanks for your question. Foursquare and Downball are most commonly known as different games.Rockycape (talk) 02:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Downball has been accepted

Downball, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. If your account is more than four days old and you have made at least 10 edits you can create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer.

• If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk.
• If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider .

Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia!

Robert McClenon (talk) 04:29, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Down-ball

The article Down-ball has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Does not seem to be notable (may not even exist as described). Searches for a reliable WP:RS fail. The term is absent in Google Scholar and Books, on the Web used to describe particular situation in handball and the Four square game, but never in this context. The description on the site of Melbourne University appears to be a typo: the rules do nto describe any wall use (it seems that the website designer confused this one with "Wall ball")

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Викидим (talk) 06:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

"|concern = Does not seem to be notable (may not even exist as described). Searches for a reliable WP:RS fail. The term is absent in Google Scholar and Books, on the Web used to describe particular situation in handball and the Four square game, but never in this context. The description on the site of Melbourne University appears to be a typo: the rules do nto describe any wall use (it seems that the website designer confused this one with "Wall ball")

|timestamp = 20240621061910

|nom = Викидим

|help = off"

Discussion on your concern about Down-ball page

Thank you for your review and raising a concern. I will explain why your concern is unfounded.

You state that Down-ball "may not even exist as described" but offer no evidence other than the your searches for a reliable WP:RS.

You state that "The description on the site of Melbourne University appears to be a typo: the rules do nto describe any wall use (it seems that the website designer confused this one with "Wall ball"".

You ignore the first reference of the article https://ctac.esrc.unimelb.edu.au/biogs/E000139b.htm which clearly mentions the (brick wall) and tennis ball.

You ignore the video of down-ball (main wikipedia down-ball article which shows down-ball in action and will go some way to demonstrate that down-ball is unique as a ball/wall game as the ball must bye bit down to the ground and bounce before hitting the wall. This is distinct to wall ball which is more akin to the racquet game squash where the ball must hit the ball on the full.

Again, thank you for your review and raising a concern. I have demonstrated that your concern is unfounded and have removed the proposed deletion and added this to the talk page. Rockycape (talk) 19:25, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I had to revert your original change since it ruined the article formatting. I then deleted the WP:PROD WP:hatnote again since you have objected to it. I am not convinced by your arguments, and started the WP:AfD procedure. I have checked both links before PRODding:

1. The (first) university source appears to confuse two different games: the "Wall ball" with a wall, described on the same site, and the "Downball" with four squares. This appears to me a typo made by a Web designer
2. The (second) museum source clearly states on p. 40 that Downball and Four squares is the same game. Note that the action now is on the AfD page referenced below.

Викидим (talk) 20:00, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Викидим - I think your position would benefit by consideration of the context of schoolyard games more generally.

Schoolyard games such as Down-ball are primarily passed down to new generations in the schoolyard and are generally not recorded in the literature or on the web to a large extent like main stream sports for example.

To be a useful contributor to the Down-ball wikipedia page I would ask that you change your approach from being a sceptic and pushing for deletion to helping to find better references whether they be in the literature or on the web.

I'll certainly be working to find better references myself. Down-ball deserves a page on wikipedia as a schoolyard game enjoyed by many school kids today. Rockycape (talk) 01:01, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

You ignore the first reference of the article https://ctac.esrc.unimelb.edu.au/biogs/E000139b.htm which clearly mentions the (brick wall) and tennis ball.

The text I am referring to at the above link is:

"Downball is a game where the first player bounces the ball on ground, to rebound off wall. The second player must hit ball the same way after only one bounce. Everyone must do the same until they miss - then they are out.

Details

At School 14

Players: Several

Boys and Girls

Age: 10-11

Props: Tennis Ball and Brick Wall"

You ignore the video of down-ball (main wikipedia down-ball article which shows down-ball in action and will go some way to demonstrate that down-ball is unique as a ball/wall game as the ball must bye bit down to the ground and bounce before hitting the wall. This is distinct to wall ball which is more akin to the racquet game squash where the ball must hit the ball on the full. Rockycape (talk) 01:12, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Dear colleague, this seems to be a WP:WRONGVENUE for a deletion discussion, as not many people will see it here. I will stick to the AfD page referenced below. Викидим (talk) 06:21, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Down-ball for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Down-ball is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Down-ball until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Викидим (talk) 19:47, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

This article was just deleted by closer ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Drmies ) without warning. As per wikipedia:

"Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision."

Unfortunately it is not possible to talk with Drmies on User_talk due to some restrictions in place. Rockycape (talk) 01:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

email to Drmies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Down-ball

Hi Drmies,

This AfD and article Down-ball ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Down-ball ) was recently deleted by closer ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Drmies ) without warning. As per wikipedia:

"Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision."

Unfortunately it is not possible to talk with Drmies on User_talk due to some restrictions in place.

Please add this as a topic on your User_talk and allow me to contribute to this topic.

Thanks,

Rockycape Rockycape (talk) 01:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I closed an AfD. There is no "warning" necessary, nor to I see any need to discuss the matter since the matter is resolved, as far as I am concerned, and I am sure the participants in the AfD agree. There was no mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding. If you like, you can try your luck again at Wikipedia:Deletion review. Oh, instead of emailing me, you can just ping me--thanks. Drmies (talk) 01:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@Drmies: I'd like to give you the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind the decision to close the AfD especially since the creation of an AfD for a newly created page is contentious. Rockycape (talk) 02:09, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@Drmies Also why won't you add this topic to your User_talk? Rockycape (talk) 02:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

How am I meant to initiate a Wikipedia:Deletion review with you being the person who deleted it, if I can't post on your User_talk? Rockycape (talk) 06:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Sheesh. Just post it and don't notify me. For crying out loud, I'm the one who told you where to go. Just post it and get it over with. Drmies (talk) 13:17, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh, and thank you for the opportunity to clarify my reasoning. Drmies (talk) 13:19, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@DrmiesI have listed Down-ball on Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2024 July 4 Rockycape (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

One of the hardest things as wikipedia new page contributor is gathering support from other editors. This is something I have failed to do spectacularly. It's been an uphill battle to create a non-controversial page about a schoolyard ball and wall game. I genuinely don't know the answer of how to create a non-controversial page about a schoolyard ball and wall game and gather support of other editors.

I thought it was by addressing arguments and making my case but others are very quick to shout badger-er. If others genuinely have advice on how to build support for a new page then I'd like to hear your thoughts. Rockycape (talk) 00:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I was expected to argue for the page I created to be kept in this Deletion review. That I have argued strongly has been used against me. That's the rub I guess.

I have worked out for myself that one of the options of this Deletion review is for additional references/sources to be added to the Down-ball page. I have in fact being doing this in the background. I can't add these anywhere yet as I can't even see the deleted content, but I plan to add these to a new draft if I'm not locked out of doing so.

I would like to add that none of the "help" provided by other editors has been practical enough to:

(1) point out that restoring the page with added references/sources is one of the options of this Deletion review

(2) explain a mechanism to do this within wikipedia

I don't know if there term used here for not really being practically helpful but that is my experience. Editors here like to emphasie the rules and a strict interpretation of the rules but at the same time do not offer practical advice on navigating the process. That editors choose not to provide practical help when asked on something they have already made their minds up on speaks volumes. Rockycape (talk) 02:12, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Until someone is able to offer assistance in regards to where in this Deletion review to add "Allow recreation" content, I will add as a reply here. Rockycape (talk) 04:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. Hyndman, B., Mahony, L., Te Ava, A., Smith, S. and Nutton, G., 2017. Complementing the Australian primary school Health and Physical Education (HPE) curriculum: exploring children's HPE learning experiences within varying school ground equipment contexts. _Education 3-13_, _45_(5), pp.613-628.

2. Hunt, H., 2007. Counterintuitive problems in dynamics and vibration.

3. Hyndman, B. and Chancellor, B., 2017. Are secondary school environments conducive for active play opportunities? An objective assessment across Australian secondary school playgrounds. _International Journal of Play_, _6_(1), pp.40-52.

4. McKinty, J., 2016. Losing our marbles: What's happening to children's folklore in schools?. _Play and Folklore_, (66), pp.37-44.

5. McKinty, J., THE HIDDEN HERITAGE OF THE SCHOOLYARD.

6. https://ctac.esrc.unimelb.edu.au/biogs/E000139b.htm

7. https://ctac.esrc.unimelb.edu.au/biogs/E000415b.htm

Rockycape (talk) 04:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

It looks like you have a partially right idea here. If you think you have good sources that can be used to create an article about the game down-ball that you have such a strong interest in, there is no barrier to creating a new draft.

But please consider how you evaluate your sources. The sources you used before were considered inadequate and if you don't offer "better" sources, the new draft will be doomed to the same fate as the old article.

I've tried looking at some of the sources you've listed here and some of them are behind sufficiently strong paywalls that I have not yet been able to read them. Of the others, here are a few comments:

• Hunt - only mentions that downball is a game
• McKinty - Hidden Heritage - talks about downball without mentioning use of a wall
• McKinty - Losing Marbles - talks generally about multiple ball games, including several handball games, mentioning four square, downball and wall ball but not specific about their differences
• U Melbourne blog entries - identifying games named downball and wall ball
• also U Melbourne blog entry https://ctac.esrc.unimelb.edu.au/biogs/E000066b.htm for four square including many variants

So here's the problem as I see it. You want to identify "down-ball" as a distinct game that a) has a hyphen, b) is played against a wall. It is vital to your goal that you find sources that meet those two criteria and provide enough specifics about how it is played to distinguish it from the other games in this general family of handball games. None of the sources that I've examined so far appear to useful towards that end.

I remember reading in your article about specific rules in how the game is played that distinguish the game from others but the source for those was, as best I remember, based on your own experience, not a published source. If you do offer a published source, it will need to support your name for the game and give sufficiently specific details about the gameplay to make it clear how it is distinguished. As there is now apparently a Downball Association that tries to oversee and regularize its specific version of downball, deviations from that standardized game will need substantial backup to establish that these variations are somehow new versions in need of recognition as distinct games rather than local instances of "not following all the rules" or "calling an existing game by another name". I expect, as an object of research, scholars would want to see how variations in rules diffuse across schools or localities - they have to identify individual elements of variation to be able to follow this process.

Please don't go away with the impression that other editors are denying the existence of your version of down-ball. Existence and notability are largely orthogonal here. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:00, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi jmcgnh, thank you, I really appreciate you taking a good look and reviewing this on this User Talk:Rockycape.

There are several problems with having a Down-ball wikipedia page but I think most of these problems have been overcome for other similar pages and so these problems should not be insurmountable.

Problem 01: The best sources for Down-ball list two different games that still to this day share the same name "Downball". Downball is played with a ball on the ground/floor within a larger painted square that is divided into further four smaller painted squares. Downball is not played against a wall. Down-ball is played against a wall with a ball.

My solution to this was that I created a disambiguation page that distinguished between Downball and Down-ball. That page was deleted when Down-ball was deleted.

Problem 02: Two businesses/enterprises, Downball Australia ( downballaustralia.com.au ) and Handball Australia ( handballaustralia.com.au ) exist. ( I don't know but they may have chosen those names because an unrelated business already had foursquare.com ) Downball Australia uses Downball wikipedia page to promote their business. - I don't see this as a problem for the creation of Down-ball page. However it has become a problem today when a wikipedia editor has singlehandedly decides to create a redirection from Down-ball to Downball. Rockycape (talk) 07:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Asking for the deleted article to be restored as a draft may not help. None of that material is based on the kinds of sources that you will need to successfully write a new draft. Once you have suitable sources, the draft will have to be started from scratch, written based on these new sources. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 12:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your additional comment here. Rockycape (talk) 18:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)