Talk:Whitey Bulger

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2018

Pillopug (talk) 17:02, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Death October 30 2018 Killed in West Virginia prison

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 20:14, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Page locked, edit needed.

In the death tab it reads “Details about his death (remain) unknown.”

Needs to be corrected to “Details about his death (are currently) unknown.”

Skilleri0us (talk) 17:15, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Isn't that the same? Britmax (talk) 14:48, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

He was beaten to death by fellow inmates at a Federal Prison in Virginia. Hanoi Road (talk) 19:23, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

In the news candidate

For info, this article has been nominated to appear in the recent deaths section on the main page. However, there are some concerns about unsourced sections and article quality. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 20:56, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Canadian descent

He was born in 1929, his father would have been born near or prior to 1900. Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949, therefore his father would not be considered Canadian. One of the categories he has been entered into is Americans of Canadian Descent, which is not correct. HJKeats (talk) 14:00, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Removed category with notes associated in edit. Steve Lux, Jr. (talk) 15:17, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Alcatraz

Right now, Whitey_Bulger#Early_criminal_career makes no mention of him spending time in Alcatraz. I'd edit the section myself but I'm not sure when he was actually there. Calidum 03:31, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

No mention of Bulger's prostitution?

I believe it had been mentioned in previous edits that Bulger was a male prostitute in his early career. I'm not sure why this has been removed. I assume the Bulger supporters didn't want his reputation to take a hit. Dwain (talk) 14:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

If verifiable, rock-solid sources exist (and they would need to be just that), there is no reason why it should not be included. This is not a Bulger fan site. Hanoi Road (talk) 16:25, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect info on summary paragraph

I cannot edit the first paragraph of the article. It states that Bulger was on the FBIs Ten Most Wanted list as the second most wanted fugitive behind Osama Bin Laden. The FBI has stated on record that the criminals on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted list are not ranked, making this entry incorrect. A small error, but something worth noting for accuracy.Mhalbe84 (talk) 19:48, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Yet a reliable source claims this: https://time.com/4043186/black-mass-true-story/. This raises an important general question: how we treat statements in reliable sources that are incorrect? BorisG (talk) 15:11, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

MK ULTRA/LSD Experiments

Associated Press today carried a story about Janet Uhlar, a jury member in the case who regrets finding him guilty of murder following the revelation that he was administered huge quantities of LSD whilst in prison as part of government experiments. This likely wrecked his mind completely. In letters written to Uhlar, he claims to have woken up hourly every night of his life after these experiments (I think some were conducted during his stint at Alcatraz). I'm no expert in this topic, so I'll leave the research and editing to those who are. Thanks. Hanoi Road (talk) 19:21, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

hiding Whitey Bulger's descent

@Seasider53: In the revision of 23:01 17 October 2020, Bulger is described as "an American crime boss" instead of "an Irish-American crime boss". Has there been a consensus that mentioning the descent of those persons involved in a given criminal organization is inappropriate? For that matter, I'm not sure what's the point of mentioning that he's "American", why should we be bothered to point out that someone living in America is American, assuming that this fact mattered? Fabrickator (talk) 07:38, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

If John F. Kennedy's article ever states he was an Irish-American president, we can maybe look at amending Whitey Bulger's article to state the same. - Seasider53 (talk) 09:58, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Seasider53: In the edit description of the 02:39 19 October 2020 revision, you wrote:

every person in the current FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives list has their nationality in the lede

However, if you look at Bulger's contemporaries, such as the other members of the Winter Hill Gang, all but one has their descent identified as a "hyphenated American" in the lede.

Per MOS:CONTEXTBIO:

Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.

The crime families of this era were generally organized around the country that their families came from. It seems to me that this fits the bill. Fabrickator (talk) 04:03, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Again using JFK as an example, if one of the qualifying factors of being a U.S. president is being American, why is American mentioned in his lede? - Seasider53 (talk) 09:40, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

The same editor not too long ago removed Irish-American from Howie Winter's article but added it to Stephi Flemmi's, which is why we currently find ourselves in this situation. - Seasider53 (talk) 10:21, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Not sure that the JFK analogy is helpful in this case. By default an American president has to be American, but a crime boss could be from any country, ergo to mention his area of operation is not unreasonable. As also pointed out above the hereditary descent of the families played a part in their operation, so it's reasonable to include Irish as well. If it's agreed that we should be including hereditary then we also need to qualify that he was American to avoid the implication that he was not an American citizen, but an illegal immigrant or of similar status. Chaheel Riens (talk) 12:08, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

There are many other pages of famous gangsters that don't include a hyphenated ethnicity in the lede. Bulger was born and died in the U.S. AFAIK, Bulger's gang and his activities were primarily/pretty much all in the United States. The article already details his family background. So given all that, I don't see why "Irish-American" should be put in the lede. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 06:00, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I have reverted the 15:17, 23 January 2018 revision of Winter Hill Gang making erroneous claims about Italian representation in that gang. Keep in mind that WP actually is an unreliable source, though your point that Winter Hill Gang was not absolutely and completely homogenous (i.e. not "exclusively" of Irish descent) is an incredibly weak basis for dismissing the relevance of the heritage of most of its members. Fabrickator (talk) 07:38, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Okay, but regardless, this doesn't change the fact that Bulger was born, raised and died in the U.S and his notable activities were all primarily in the United States. Unless some reliable source states that this is all wrong, which doesn't appear to be the case. There is no "hiding of descent", the article already covers his ethnic background pretty clearly. He was an American and there are many notable Americans who are recognized as being "Insert ethnicity-American" but their articles have their lede sentence as only saying "American". Clear Looking Glass (talk) 00:50, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

So some editor went through and "sanitized" other articles involving "ethnic" mobsters, with or without a valid basis. How do you figure we should accept that as properly informing us about this particular WP article? To be clear, the issue here isn't about where someone was born, it's about relationships and culture and cultural affinity.

If you did more than the briefest perusal of Winter Hill Gang, you would have come across Irish Gang War, involving two Irish gangs, gangs whose members had associated with each other, an association that was largely based on an affinity between people having a common cultural background. So I have to hypothesize that some number of editors think they know better because they just fail to appreciate the potential significance of cultural background.

And I go back to this affinity issue. Whether the affinity is based on "heritage" or it is based on "class" or some other attribute, and whether it is somehow moral or immoral to have such an affinity, that does not deny its reality.

Even West Side Story had two street gangs of different ethnic backgrounds. Should WP present a sanitized version in which ethnicity is omitted? That seems to be what you are suggesting with regard to the real-life gangs of this era. Do you prefer to remain in denial about this? Fabrickator (talk) 01:57, 17 May 2021 (UTC)