Talk:Shout!!!

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. This proposal would be better unbundled, and treated as 3 separate renamings. I am sure that the group nomination was made in good faith, but it turns out that editors view the 3 proposals as raising separate issues. Discussing them together has created a confused discussion. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:41, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

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• Shout!!! → Shout (Idoling song)
• Eve (song) → Eve (Idoling song)
• Don't think. Feel !!! → Don't Think. Feel (Idoling song)

– シャウト!!! (Shauto!!!) in Japanese might enough to identify this as the 21st single of the Japanese girl TV group イドリング!!! in Japanese, however in English there needs to be disambiguation against all the other songs. The Japanese Eve (song) is not the only song called "Eve". The 1972 Billboard 100 single by Jim Capaldi is the main topic of the song Eve in Google Books. Don't Think...Feel was a hit 1976 Neil Diamond single. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:53, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support per nom, punctuation is frequently dropped or kept or partially dropped at whim. And disambiguation page landing points are best for at least the first two. -- 70.50.148.122 (talk) 05:05, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support per nom. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:32, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support, assuming Eve (song) redirects to the disambiguation page as per WP:PDAB. Red Slash 17:53, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support--Rushton2010 (talk) 23:39, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
• Here are my opinions:

• Support the first move, somewhat cautiously as I suspect that a reader typing in "Shout!!!" may know about the song and be seeking it. Still, if Shout (The Isley Brothers song) was released on Shout! (album), it's plausible that that song could be sought with exclamation points, and there's little to no semantic difference between ! and !!!.
• Oppose the second move, as it is the only article which could reasonably be at that title. I've added a hatnote that will inform readers that we have no other articles on songs of that name.
• Oppose the third move, for essentially the same reasons as the second, and absent evidence that anyone would seek the Neil Diamond song with such an unusual search query. Seriously, could anyone point to a single source referring to that song as "Don't think. Feel !!!"?

I'd recommend unbundling these, as there are separate issues involved. All they really seem to have in common is the song artist. --BDD (talk) 19:03, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

• Also, I'm fascinated to know what any of you would propose to do with Don't think. Feel !!! after such a move. Anyone? Bueller? --BDD (talk) 19:04, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose all. I think the three exclamation points in the Shout!!! adequately distinguish the article. I concur with BDD on the other two - there are no other articles on songs called "Eve" to confuse Eve (song) with, and it's patently silly to think anyone would type in or click on Don't think. Feel !!! expecting to reach some other existing article. Yet another case of a solution looking for a problem.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:27, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to Shout!!! (Idoling song), per the discussion below. This result is independent of the possibility of moving the page to Shout (Idoling song). Dekimasuよ! 07:14, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

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Shout!!! → Shout!!! (Idoling song) – per support in previous RM. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

The repost of RM mistakenly had (Idoling!!! song) as the dab - amended back to supported proposal above

• Support punctuation is frequently dropped or kept or partially dropped at whim. And disambiguation page landing point would be best for the current title; ugh, that's still rather ugly. -- 70.50.148.248 (talk) 23:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Another flawed request. The name should either stay where it is as natural disambiguation, or be at Shout (Idoling song) to remove the exclamation points as per WP:TITLETM. However, the latter option is complicated by the fact that the group's article is titled Idoling!!!. Are we really to assume that someone who types "Shout" and then not 1, not 2, but 3 exclamation points would seriously expect to be taken to another existing article? For its flaws the current option is leagues better than the proposed.--Cúchullain ^t/c 03:48, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Well Cúchullain you may say that but from a series of RMs (including the above RM) your view seems to be in a minority as regards using ! for disambiguation. Per above RM comments from 70.50.148.122, Red Slash, BarrelProof, Rushton2010 and BDD it seems that many editors do not believe ! !! !!! are sufficient to meet WP:AT criteria, given also Shout! (album) by the Isley Brothers, Shout! The Legend of The Wild One etc. This is exacerbated by the fact that pop songs are transient in nature, this song is WP:RECENT at August 2013, and in this case the fact that this song is シャウト!!!. Shout (Idoling song) can redirect, but generally if the band is Idoling!!! (where !!! is not functioning against any Idoling!) then following the band name/format in parentheses is usual. WP:TITLETM isn't relevant to Idoling!!!'s sources so I can't see what you're referring to in that guideline. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:09, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Uh, actually, the previous request that found some support was from Shout!!! to Shout (Idoling song), which is one of the two titles I said was potentially acceptable. WP:TITLETM and the related guideline Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks say we typically avoid non-standard text formatting (like extraneous exclamation points) in titles. In other words, the question is whether "!!!" is acceptable for title/disambiguation purposes (in which case Shout!!! is fine and needs no more disambiguation), or whether "!!!" is not acceptable (in which case it definitely shouldn't appear in a disambiguated title). There's no real justification for the proposed title.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

You're correct, the RM has 7 out of 8 support for Shout!!! (Idoling song). I've amended it. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

No, it was for Shout (Idoling song). You're the one who proposed it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:38, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose If we accept "shout" with three exclamation marks as both the name of the song and a valid article name, there's no current need for disambiguation by adding the artist name. The above proposed move to "Shout (Idoling!!! song)" seems more reasonable but then if we're happy to punctuate the artist name in that way, why not one of their songs. Either way the current title appears to be unambiguous. benmoore 19:19, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I've amended it. The issue is whether Shout! Shout!! or Shout!!! are WP:AT "recognizable to readers". In ictu oculi (talk) 19:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

So the suggestion is to use parenthetical disambiguation to an already unique title to make it more recognisable? In the above request the reasoning given was to disambiguate from other songs named shout. Either way I don't see what the 137 viewers (over the last 30d) could have been looking for in order to mistakenly stumble across this article. benmoore 20:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I've been asked to note that there did seem to be a measure of support for the alternative title (Shout (Idoling song)), and to point out that the typographic issue here may indicate an issue with the article name of the group itself. Dekimasuよ! 09:48, 12 February 2014 (UTC)