Talk:Shai Hulud
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 | On 4 March 2018, it was proposed that this article be moved from Shai Hulud to Shai Hulud (band). The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Untitled edit
simply...the best band ever
do you know anything about metalcore and post-hardcore??? No. cuz if you did you wouldnt write such idiot stuff..Shai Hulud is HARDcore
So, regarding genre classification, I'm going to call into question the veracity of the AllMusic cite in this instance. They describe this band as 'positively themed', which seems a bit fishy to me, given albums and songs like "A Profound Hatred of Man", "Solely Concentrating on the Negative Aspects of Life", "Scornful Of The Motives And Virtue Of Others", "Ending The Perpetual Tragedy", etc. Shai Hulud creates deeply misanthropic music, and anything that labels this "positively themed" is not, in my view, a credible source. On top of this, the allmusic link also bills this as hardcore, which is how I understand the band, so it's certainly no evidence to remove the references to hardcore altogether. I'm leaving metalcore in the side genre list though. Thoughts, anyone? Arturus 04:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
LINEUP edit
Change?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.20.104 (talk) 23:19, 4 October 2011 (UTC) the lineup has gone over extensive change, particularly the vocalist. also, their original singer was "asked to leave" the band, he didn't quit..or did he? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.58.104.26 (talk) 23:56, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
External links modified edit
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Requested move 4 March 2018 edit
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: no consensus. See no general agreement to move this article from its longstanding title. As is usual with a no-consensus outcome, editors may in a few months attempt again to rename this article, hopefully with fresh, new arguments. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! (closed by page mover) Paine Ellsworth put'r there 21:33, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
Shai Hulud → Shai Hulud (band) – This doesn't qualify for WP:SMALLDETAILS as it is too easily confused with the Dune term Shai-Hulud. Considering the name is also directly based on the Dune creature, it makes no sense for this title not to be a redirect. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 00:04, 4 March 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. —usernamekiran(talk) 11:35, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:PRECISE. Shai-Hulud is not an article; it's merely a redirect that averages zero hits per day[1]. There's already an explanation as to what the band is named after in the second sentence, with a link to the sandworm. Station1 (talk) 01:15, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
- Station1, that is not what WP:PRECISE says and "Shai-Hulud" without a hyphen is also referring to the sandworm in books. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:03, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- "Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that." Shai Hulud describes the scope of the article, the band named Shai Hulud. It is unambiguous as a title because no other article on WP is using the title "Shai Hulud". If "Shai Hulud" needed to be used for another article, either as title or redirect, it would be ambiguous, but the virtual literal uselessness of "Shai-Hulud" as a redirect gives us reason to believe that "Shai Hulud" would be far less useful as a redirect than as the title of this article. Station1 (talk) 18:28, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Station1: "It is unambiguous as a title because no other article on WP is using the title "Shai Hulud"." - that's the problem. It is not unambiguous as a title simply because no other article on WP is using the title. This is not how titling works. No guideline says this is how titling works. Hurricane (plane) is not at Hurricane even though we have no article for Hurricane titled "Hurricane". The Shai Hulud is a giant fictional sandworm and the Shai Hulud gets 398 daily views compared to 86 for the band named after the sandworm. Same as Hurricane compared to Hurricane (plane). In ictu oculi (talk) 07:43, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- That's where "usually" comes in. Hurricane has a couple thousand incoming wikilinks and gets 300 hits/day. Shai-Hulud has zero and zero. One can argue Hurricane is a useful redirect, but Shai Hulud would not be. (And Hurricane (plane) is not an article; it's a redirect to Hawker Hurricane, which is at its best title.) Station1 (talk) 20:42, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, which is exactly the case for pageviews for Hurricane vs Hurricane plane. The old internal links are creating some artifical "views" (which aren't views) but redirects and wikilinks are not how people find things so in therms of page views that's irrelevant. Shai Hulud gets 398 daily views compared to 86 for the band named after the sandworm. If (for the sake of argument) we move the sandworm to Shai Hulud then suddenly the band is only 86. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:10, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- But that's an argument for moving Sandworm (Dune) to Shai Hulud as the primary topic, which no one is proposing. Are these sandworms even commonly called "Shai Hulud"? The phrase does not appear anywhere in that long article. "Shai-hulud" appears only once, in the infobox, as one of four aliases. Would any significant number of people be expecting an article about the Dune sandworms under the title "Shai Hulud", as opposed to the band actually named that? Station1 (talk) 03:17, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, which is exactly the case for pageviews for Hurricane vs Hurricane plane. The old internal links are creating some artifical "views" (which aren't views) but redirects and wikilinks are not how people find things so in therms of page views that's irrelevant. Shai Hulud gets 398 daily views compared to 86 for the band named after the sandworm. If (for the sake of argument) we move the sandworm to Shai Hulud then suddenly the band is only 86. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:10, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- That's where "usually" comes in. Hurricane has a couple thousand incoming wikilinks and gets 300 hits/day. Shai-Hulud has zero and zero. One can argue Hurricane is a useful redirect, but Shai Hulud would not be. (And Hurricane (plane) is not an article; it's a redirect to Hawker Hurricane, which is at its best title.) Station1 (talk) 20:42, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Station1: "It is unambiguous as a title because no other article on WP is using the title "Shai Hulud"." - that's the problem. It is not unambiguous as a title simply because no other article on WP is using the title. This is not how titling works. No guideline says this is how titling works. Hurricane (plane) is not at Hurricane even though we have no article for Hurricane titled "Hurricane". The Shai Hulud is a giant fictional sandworm and the Shai Hulud gets 398 daily views compared to 86 for the band named after the sandworm. Same as Hurricane compared to Hurricane (plane). In ictu oculi (talk) 07:43, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
- "Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that." Shai Hulud describes the scope of the article, the band named Shai Hulud. It is unambiguous as a title because no other article on WP is using the title "Shai Hulud". If "Shai Hulud" needed to be used for another article, either as title or redirect, it would be ambiguous, but the virtual literal uselessness of "Shai-Hulud" as a redirect gives us reason to believe that "Shai Hulud" would be far less useful as a redirect than as the title of this article. Station1 (talk) 18:28, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- Station1, that is not what WP:PRECISE says and "Shai-Hulud" without a hyphen is also referring to the sandworm in books. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:03, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per Station1. I can't see this causing any real confusion that isn't solved by the name origin sentence, or possibly a standard hatnote. -- Netoholic @ 08:46, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per Station1. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:53, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
- Strong support - per hurricane in all good faith "is not an article; it's merely a redirect" shows that Station1 does not understand the basic rules of WP:DISAMBIGUATION. "Shai Hulud is" in books clearly refers to the Dune sandworm. @Lugnuts: you're an editor who does understand our disambiguation rules, please note Pageviews: the real Shai Hulud gets 398 daily views compared to 86 for the band named after the sandworm. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Per Netholic. Even though the Dune concept may be the namesake, this is easily sorted by a simple hatnote, for those who may choose to sort by the far less commonly used term for the creature.--Yaksar (let's chat) 01:00, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- Support. Redirect or not, the Dune term is the primary term, as opposed to a relatively obscure band named after it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:58, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- Support per In ictu oculi. The redirect is the primary topic, and considering the point of naming is to help people find the things they are looking for, I think this move would be wise. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:49, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose. Despite the fact that I personally had never heard of the band until now, and only recognize the name from the Dune books, a quick Google search reveals far more references to the band than the sandworm or the Dune books.--Aervanath (talk) 20:46, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.