Talk:Park Avenue Armory

Article title

Shouldn't the article title be Park Avenue Armory, which is what the building is currently known as? --Another Believer _(Talk) 00:53, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Yes it should. And the article on the organization that operates it should use its full name, Park Avenue Armory Conservancy. I'm going to propose a move. oknazevad (talk) 18:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 5 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks ping me! 18:38, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

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• Seventh Regiment Armory → Park Avenue Armory
• Park Avenue Armory → Park Avenue Armory Conservancy

– The building itself is far better known as the Park Avenue Armory, as seen in even a cursory search of common sources, like The New York Times. Even the city's Landmarks Conservancy refers to the building as the Park Avenue Armory. The current title may be the building's listing on the NRHP, but those names are frequently not the actual common name but a mere descriptor.

More importantly, the term "Park Avenue Armory" refers to the building itself, not the organization that operates it, which is the Park Avenue Armory Conservancy. Just because their logo omits the word doesn't change the group's name to make it most commonly referred to by the building's common name. The lead sentence of that article saying the organization is "generally known as Park Avenue Armory" is unsourced and unfounded. In casual use people will muddle the distinction, but this is an encyclopedia, not casual use. The current arrangement ignores WP:NATDIS and fails WP:COMMONNAME for the building. oknazevad (talk) 18:15, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NATURAL. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:15, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support ɱ (talk) 16:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Lightburst talk 18:03, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

The Park Avenue Armory

• ... that the Park Avenue Armory was leased out as an art center because the New York state government could not pay for repairs? Source: Raab, Selwyn (March 1, 1999). "State Will Transfer Control Of Armory on Park Avenue". The New York Times; Pristin, Terry (November 18, 2000). "Arts Center Plan Is Sole Bid to Restore Armory". The New York Times
  • ALT1: ... that at the Park Avenue Armory, antique shows and benefits were hosted next to a homeless shelter? Source: Ramirez, Anthony (June 16, 1996). "New Yorkers & Co.; Black Ties, Tennis and the Homeless". The New York Times
  • ALT2: ... that the drill hall at the Park Avenue Armory, one of New York City's largest column-free indoor spaces when completed, was called a "blank slate"? Source: Seventh Regiment Armory Interior (PDF) (Report). New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission. July 19, 1994. p. 9; Passy, Charles (July 16, 2018). "The Park Avenue Armory Offers a Canvas for Larger-Than-Life Productions". Wall Street Journal.
  • ALT3: ... that the Park Avenue Armory, which once hosted a tennis championship for six decades, now hosts avant-garde art? Source: Seventh Regiment Armory Interior (PDF) (Report). New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission. July 19, 1994. PDF p. 57; Passy, Charles (July 16, 2018). "The Park Avenue Armory Offers a Canvas for Larger-Than-Life Productions". Wall Street Journal.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Monster Hunter Now
  • Comment: I can add more hooks if desired.

5x expanded by Epicgenius (talk). Self-nominated at 14:51, 2 October 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Park Avenue Armory; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• 5× expansion of 23 June 2023‎ version completed from 2,732 characters to 54,373 and nominated two days later. [https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=Park_Avenue_Armory No copyvios detected (AGF books and offline refs which can't go through Dup detector). Article is well-sourced. Main hook is 124 characters long (ALT1 is 98; ALT2 is 147; ALT3 is 112); all four are under the 200 character max. limit and are interesting. All refs that verify aforementioned hooks are reliable sources (AGF ref 92 behind WSJ paywall). QPQ done. Image is free under CC BY-2.0. Looks good to go! —Bloom6132 (talk) 16:32, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Park Avenue Armory/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 01:40, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Beginning review.

Lead:

• "The interior of the building contains numerous rooms designed in several styles" – "Numerous buildings in the interior of the building were designed in several styles"
• "By the 21st century, the armory was largely being used as an event and exhibit space." – was?
• ", with expansions in 1909–1913 and 1928–1933... The armory was substantially expanded from 1909 to 1913" – kept one or the other.
• used mostly – mostly used

Form and facade:

• Wikilink Mansard roof
• Wikilink Philadelphia. Also in the lead
• "The facade also had quoins and arches made of granite" – "The facade also had quoins and granite arches". Also, is it mentioned what the quoins made of?
• "There are also brick corbels extending horizontally across the third floor" – "Brick corbels extended horizontally across the third floor."
• Might wikilink loophole to Arrowslit
• "As designed," – I don't think this is necessary
• "On Lexington Avenue, there is an arched doorway, originally fitted with" – "An arched doorway on Lexington Avenue was originally fitted with..."
• "The 66th and 67th Street facades contain narrow windows" – "Narrow windows lined the 66th and 67th Street facades."

More comments to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:40, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I have fixed all of these. The quoins are made of granite, and the arches are also made of granite. Epicgenius (talk) 14:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Another: "The large vaulted space for the drill hall is on the eastern three-quarters of the block." – I think it should be "at" instead of "on"

In American English at least, "on" would be correct here, as the drill hall physically occupies the eastern three-quarters of the block. We would use "at" if it were part of a larger complex (e.g. we would describe a theater as being at Lincoln Center, but we would describe the armory as being on the block). Epicgenius (talk) 14:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Interior:

• The first floor of the administration building contains various regimental rooms. – replace contains with houses
  • Done, but with a different synonym. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• "consisted of spaces for the adjutant, board of officers, colonel, field and staff, and non-commissioned officers." – what sort of space? Previously it's mentioned about offices. Are those offices are meant for this group of people too?
  • Basically, I was trying to say "adjutant's room", "board of officers' room", etc. without being repetitive. Most of these were offices, except for the board of officers' room, which I think was a meeting room. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• "Also in the building were spaces such as a library" – remove "spaces such as"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• "are relatively obscure." – as in unknown to the public? What's the relevance of this fact, may I ask?
  • Yes. Almost all media coverage of the building's interiors is of the Veterans' Room and Library, with some mentions of the halls and maybe one or two company rooms (different sources talk about different company rooms). Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• The interior spaces were decorated with various paintings and portraits, including a portrait by Rembrandt Peale, depicting George Washington; portraits of various 7th Regiment colonels and other officers; and paintings by Thomas Nast and Sanford Robinson Gifford, depicting the 7th Regiment in camp and on the march.
  • If my understanding of this sentence is correct, a portrait of George Washington is by Rembrandt Peale, along with portraits of various 7th Regiment colonels and other officers? And then paintings by Thomas Nast and Sanford Robinson Gifford depicting the 7th Regiment in camp and on the march.
    • (1) A portrait of George Washington is by Rembrandt Peale. (2) There are portraits of various 7th Regiment colonels and other officers, possibly created by Peale but also by other artists. (3) Thomas Nast and Sanford Robinson Gifford created paintings depicting the 7th Regiment in camp and on the march. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
  • I might suggest simplifying and cutting up this sentence to be clearer who and who painted which
    • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• " also contained sculptures" – "also displayed"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• "built of iron, to" remove comma
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• " at either end, installed in 1911." also remove comma
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• "are on the northwestern section of the ground floor." – I think it should be "at" instead of "on". See similar comment.
  • Done - "at the northwestern section of the ground floor" does seem correct here in American English, in contrast to the other example. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• "and possibly Lockwood de Forest" – so he might not be involved?
  • Correct. There is speculation that he was involved in the room's design, but it has not been confirmed. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• " The ceiling is coffered[37] and has redwood beams." – Wikilink Coffer and rewrite "The ceiling is coffered with redwood beams" or "the ceiling coffer is of redwood beam"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• "mahogany woodwork, such as sliding doors" – remove comma
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• "are on the southwestern section of the ground floor." See similar comment
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• "Between the hallway to the west and the drill hall to the east, there are" – remove ", there"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

More to come on the halls.--ZKang123 (talk) 13:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Wade Thompson Drill Hall:

• "in a similar manner" – "similarly" will do
• "1,100 persons" – "1,100 people"
• "the galleries still exist, and there is storage space under the galleries." – "the galleries still exist with storage (space) underneath."

Company rooms and other spaces:

• "though no two rooms were alike" – "each room with a distinct design/layout"
• "and lacks a stair" – "without a stair(way)"
• "The design of Company E's room was revised in 1892 when the ceiling was refinished in a strapwork design, the walls were covered in Japanese wallpaper," – This seems to be a run-on
• Also, "Japanese wallpaper,[110] The original stenciling" – should this be a full stop?
• "The second floor also contained two squad drill rooms, which were decorated in Georgia pine and had sinks." – "The second floor also contained two squad drill rooms decorated in Georgia pine and had sinks.". Also, the additional information about sinks is just a bit awkward and trivial.
• "The third-floor library was described in the New-York Tribune as having a "Gothic ceiling" and mahogany shelves." – I don't think you need to attribute directly attribute to New York Tribune unless the ref at the end is different, and/or this fact is uncertain or contridicted by other sources.--ZKang123 (talk) 04:18, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Just something I have noted so far: I feel the architectural descriptions are a bit chunky for some reason. Like the sentence structures are often: "The building's basement had a rifle range measuring 300 feet (91 m) long" or "The Company M room has oak woodwork, a fireplace, paneled ceiling...". Often it is "This room has this or that". It gets pretty boring and repetitive as I read through the article. Try to vary the descriptions more.

More to come on the history.--ZKang123 (talk) 04:18, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @ZKang123, I did all of these. The sentence structures are a bit harder because there's only so many ways to express an idea, but I have attempted to reword the sentences anyway. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It's not too much of an issue at GAN, but I will be mindful of that if it gets raised at FAC which demands a higher quality of prose.--ZKang123 (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Continuing.

History:

• "was organized in 1806" – would establish be a better term?
  • Yeah. Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• I might also mention its initial name before the current name of the regiment (would also do so in the article of the regiment too).
  • I have done this (as far as I can tell, it was known as just the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th companies, but were not grouped under a single name). Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• "The regiment helped control several civil disturbances in New York City during the mid-19th century, and it served in the American Civil War." – "The regiment quelled civil disturbances in mid-19th century New York City and served in the American Civil War." Might also make mention of what notable battles it was involved in.
  • I've reworded the sentence. I think it would be better if the details about the battles were covered in the regiment's article, since this paragraph is intended as a summary of the regiment itself. Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• There isn't yet an article for Tompkins Market Armory?
  • I've added a red link. Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• "the structure's third floor physically could not support military exercises." – "the physical structure of the third floor could not support military exercises."
  • I've reworded the sentence. What I mean to say was that the third floor was too weak for the military exercises. Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• $350,000 - add inflated value. Similar for others in this section.
  • Partially done; I'll fix the rest later. Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• "to give them $350,000." – " to give them the money/expenditure" or any other wording
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• "constructed of brick" – "constructed out of brick"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• "The total cost of the armory" – "The total construction cost..." Or does the cost include furnishings and all? If so, ignore this comment
  • Yes, the cost included furnishings. Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• "The city government was also loath to fund repairs to the armory" – "The city government loathed to fund repairs to the armory." Unless I misunderstood the use of "loath" in this case?
  • In this case, "loath" means "reluctant". In American English, it's slightly different from "loathe", which means "hate". Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• "because of disputes over where they should meet." – "because they could not decide on a new meeting location". Avoid repeating "dispute" in the same sentence.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• (I almost thought revue is misspelt...)
• "The 7th Regiment requested in April 1896 that the New York Armory Board approve their request to install electrical wiring and lighting throughout the building. The Armory Board approved the request in June $30,000 for the installation of electric wires and 4,500 lights." – Suggest combining to: "In April 1896, the 7th Regiment requested the New York Armory Board to authorize the installation of electrical wiring and lighting throughout the building, which was approved in June (of that year) with $30,000 provided for the installation." Also, 4,500 lights... what? Light bulbs?
  • I have rephrased it, and yes, it was 4,500 lightbulbs. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• "when the newsletter Seventh Regiment Gazette wrote that the armory had been freed "from the incubus of dirt and inconvenience that recent alterations have entailed"" – I personally think this verges on pretty trivial information.
  • I agree - I only included it because I thought the quote was interesting. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• "the Charles Meads Company was hired for this work." – separate this clause from the previous and I might integrate/rewrite this information in the subsequent sentence.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• Wikilink World War I and World War II
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• "there were lingering concerns" – from who?
  • From preservationists, mostly. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• (I'm a bit horrified with the idea for a new residential development above the armory)
• "for ten years" – "for a decade". Unless that was the original wording in text.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• "The state gave $30 million" – awarded might be a better term.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• "over plans for the building." – "over the building plans"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• "There were also plans to install a green roof on the administration building." – I guess this was shelved
  • Honestly, I don't know what happened with these plans. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• "Herzog & de Meuron began restoring the Veterans Room" – "began the restoration of the..."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• "with sharply reduced capacity" – of what number?
  • Apparently 96, but I think the plan was subject to change. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• "The conservancy attempted to evict the Knickerbocker Greys from the armory throughout 2022 to make way for additional event space." – I guess the Knickerbocker Greys held their ground?
  • Yeah, there's currently pending litigation in the New York state legislature that would provide permanent space for the Greys. Due to the quickly-changing nature of this dispute, I chose not to include a detailed description of the dispute in the article. Epicgenius (talk) 14:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
• Just curious, was air-conditioning eventually installed in the building? I note an earlier passage on how the building lacked air-conditioning.
  • Yes, it was installed in the early 2010s. I've fixed this. Epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

To continue review.--ZKang123 (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Notable events:

• "From the armory's early years until the 2010s, most of its events took place in the drill hall." – would shorten to "Throughout the armory's history, most of its events were held in the drill hall."
  • This wording is specifically because many events during the 2010s and 2020s were hosted in the regimental rooms and officers' rooms, not the drill hall. I've rephrased this. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• "after it opened" – "after its opening"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• "also started athletic competitions" – "also held..."
  • Changed to "also started holding athletic competitions", as the 1882 contests were just the first of many. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• "took place every year." – "took place annually". Or the whole sentence could be rewritten as "The 7th Regiment also held annual athletic competitions at its armory since March 1882, including races and tug-of-war contests."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• Would shift mention of sports competitions next to the above sentence.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• "occurred at the armory regularly" – how regularly?
  • Annually, so I've fixed that. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• "The military ball, which attracted thousands of annual guests" – "The annual military ball, which attracted thousands of guests"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• "It began to pivot toward" – "turn toward" would be enough
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• I half-wonder if a table of notable events would be sufficient than trying to list all notable events in prose. That is something I will leave at FAC.
  • This is presented as prose rather than in a table because it's not a full list (hence my frequent use of the word "include"). If I were to create a full list, it might warrant its own article. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
    • Alright, I understand.--ZKang123 (talk) 13:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Reception:

• "Harper's Weekly published a full-page article about the armory and the regiment." What did it say?
  • Sadly, I have been unable to find the text of the article, even on Internet Archive. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
    • I will just delete this sentence since it doesn't say anything then.--ZKang123 (talk) 13:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• "the building was expanded" – "the building's expansion"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• "Later armories tended to be divided" – "Later armories are typically divided"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Concluding remarks:

• Images are under a free license or public domain. Need alt for the infobox image, File:7th Reg. Armory 1st Floor Veterans (Tiffany) Room HABS NY,31-NEYO,121-21.jpg, File:7th Regiment Armory Main Staircase HABS NY,31-NEYO,121-17.jpg, File:SECOND FLOOR, FIRST COMPANY ROOM, GENERAL VIEW FROM WEST - Seventh Regiment Armory, 643 Park Avenue, New York, New York County, NY HABS NY,31-NEYO,121-63.tif and others, especially if you intend to bring this to FAC.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
• Earwig shows little issues, only some little bits of recurring phrases (e.g. fourth floor or building names)

Putting article on hold until all above are addressed.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

• Thanks for the review ZKang123. I've now done all of these. Epicgenius (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Just one little thing to resolve before I will pass.--ZKang123 (talk) 13:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

    @ZKang123, thanks. I've removed the Harper's Weekly sentence. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:33, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.