Talk:Ruger Mini-14/Archive 1

Archive 1

Image

Any reason why the image was removed? 141.157.200.16 23:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I beleive because it (or rather they) had no licensing information. If you uploaded one of them originally, upload it again and tag it appropriately on the image description page, and then it can be used in the article. scot 12:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

XGI

Can anyone provide photos for the XGI?

That's going to be really hard to come by--there were very few ever made, and while I've seen some rare Rugers (such as the Hawkeye pistol) I've never seen an XGI. There is a photo here: http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2800/2899.htm but it would have to be used under a fair use license. I'm not sure if the patent dispute is real, the Mini uses a reversed M-14 setup, with the piston fixed and the cylinder on the op rod--also, being military, anyone should be able to make an M-14, just like anyone can make an M-16, it's sort of "open source". The stories I've heard, from reputable sources, was that the XGI suffered from the same accuracy problems as the Mini, and what was acceptable in a carbine was not acceptable in a .308 rifle. scot 16:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the interesting link & info. Is the info in that link regarding the Mini-30 accurate? It's the first I have heard of it.

I don't know; the fact that I don't see any mention of that anywhere else makes me really suspect it. It would be possible to fit an AK magazine to the Mini-30, but it would require a completely different magazine well, so definitely a new stock and liner, plus significant changes to the receiver and magazine release. And even after all that, I'll bet he Mini's last-shot hold open wouldn't work right, as that uses a projection on the rear of the follower, if memory serves me right (I haven't shot my Mini in quite some time). scot 20:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that XGI pic is fair game, as it is just a scan from the old Ruger ads.

Ruger is currently auctioning off a non-fireing XGI rifle.the page can be found here.If one of the photo's were to be used it would have to be in fair use as it is the clearest photo availible.Paulwharton 02:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

An auction with clear pictures can be found here, but I don't know about the details of fair use in this case. Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 00:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Kel-Tec

Can anyone explain why there is a paragraph on the Kel-Tec SU-16 in the middle of the History section of the article? This seems highly inappropriate. A mention of the SU-16 is one thing, this seems to be someone attempting to advertise.Elwood64151 13:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed.

Accuracy

I am disputing the statment that the accuracy of this rifle against the AR-15 to be inferior. Although I agree with the general statement that the mini-14 is less accurate than bolt action rifles it has been my experience that the mini-14 is as accurate if not more so than its competitor the AR-15. I have been in numerous shooting matches where I have shot against AR-15's with a Mini-14 and have found them to be comparable. Shooting skill along with comfortablility and accustomisation of a weapon are large factors in obtaining skill and accuracy. I don't think there is anything inherently superior from either rifle to give it an accuracy advantage over the other. This statment seems to consistant in various circles as this dabate has gone on for years. I propose we strike the statement from the article in the interest of POV. FrankWilliams 17:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, the AR-15 direct impingement gas system allows it to be made into a phenomenally accurate rifle--to the point that the AR-15 is winning 1000 yard service matches against the M-14 series (with the 1 in 7 twist and the heavy, ultra-low drag bullets), and can compete head to head with any comparable bolt action rifle. The Mini-14 does suffer from a couple of demonstrable flaws that can impact accuracy:

• The fast-turned barrel means that the gas block often doesn't fit evenly, putting uneven pressure on the barrel
• The light, thin barrel is "whippy", and is extra sensitive to changes in pressure
• The under-barrel gas system makes it hard to float the barrel to any significant degree

This is not to say that it's any less accurate under normal circumstances than the typical lever or compact bolt action rifle; it's just that 1 & 2 combined to allow barrrel heating to change the POI, and 2 & 3 combined make it hard to accurize the gun. A Clark Custom version, with the heavy barrel, probably will shoot neck and neck with all but the top of the line match AR-15s, but at that point you've lost the price advantage.

As for the sentence in question, how about we change it to "not as accurate as a match grade AR-15"? That I think can be backed up with actual results. scot 18:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy

The Mini-14 is generally considered an inaccurate rifle. Out of the box accuracy is typically 4 or 5 MOA (100yrds). The AR-15 and SKS are more accurate rifles than a Mini-14. This page needs an expert to review and make necessary changes.

There are a number of problems with this idea. The first problem is finding authoritative sources for accuracy information. I've seen reports that Ruger's accuracy standard for the Mini is 2" at 50 yards, but is there a source of information for AK and AR-15 rifles' minimum accuracy standards? "Generally considered" is not sufficient, or is single sample testing.

Also, "inaccurate" is a very relative term--for a 150 yard deer cartridge, 4 MOA is sufficient; for a 400 yard prarie dog rifle, even 1 MOA isn't good enough. Keep in mind that you are comparing a 6 lb. 6 oz. rifle against much heavier guns; the earliest AR-15 is slightly lighter, but it had accuracy problems of it's own, also associated with the thin barrel. Later AR-15s, the SKS and AK-47 all weigh in at over 8 lbs. Compare their accuracy to a Mini-14 with with a heavy barrel and an overall weight of 8 lbs (http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/m14hbar.htm) and you get 1.5 MOA or better. What you can say is that the Mini-14 is designed to be light and handy, but was not intended for, and is not suitable for, high precision shooting.

Since you're comparing the Mini-14 to modern military rifles, you also have to consider just how important accuracy really is in a general issue infantry weapon. From a report on the Joint Service Combat Shotgun Program:

British examination of its Malaya experience determined that, to a range of thirty yards (27.4 meters), the probability of hitting a man-sized target with a shotgun was superior to that of all other weapons. The probability of hitting the intended target with an assault rifle was one in eleven. It was one in eight with a submachine gun firing a five-round burst. Shotguns had a hit probability ratio twice as good as rifles. A 1952 British study by the Commander of British Security Forces, compiled from combat action reports, tests, and other studies (including medical), reconfirmed the previous finding that the shotgun was a highly-effective combat weapon at ranges out to seventy-five yards (68.6 meters).

So one of the least accurate guns, a submachine gun firing a burst, is more effective in actual use than an assault rifle, and a pump 12 guage trumps them both. Granted this is only at short range, but that's more often than not where the most intense fighting is these days.

So to sum up, I think what can be neutrally said is that the Mini-14 is adequate for use against large varmints (such as coyotes), deer at short ranges (preferrably with the -30, the .223 is marginal in terminal performance), personal defense, and of course the dominant use of plinking; it is not accurate enough to be a long range varmint rifle or a precision target rifle.

Some references:

• http://www.chuckhawks.com/practical_accuracy.htm
• http://www.chuckhawks.com/ruger_mini-30.htm

scot 20:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Accuracy of the Mini-14:

It is generally recognized that "out of the box" most (not all) Mini-14's have a slightly larger grouping as compared with an "out of the box" AR-15. In this regard, the AR-15 is consistantly a little more accurate. The main issue concerning accuracy of the Mini-14 is it's stock barrel. There are aftermarket companies that produce supperior barrels for this rifle than the factory barrel, and the Mini-14 can be made to be more accurate than an out-of-the-box AR-15.

The Mini-14 has kept a substantial following due mainly to the robustness of it's design. Unlike the AR format, the gas system doesn't blow directly into the chamber, thus fouling the bolt, chamber, carrier and other fire control parts. Also, the Mini-14 can function in a dirtier environment than the AR rifles, more like an AK-47. The receiver is CNC milled out of hardened steel, whereas the two part receivers of the AR are made of about 75% aluminum, with fire control parts, made of steel. The stainless steel version of the Mini-14 are excelent for marine applications, where concerns about corrosion are a factor.

The reason that the AR-15 is more popular among civilians is 1) because this is the format widely used by the US Military; and 2) the avialability of spare parts and accessories. Whereas the Mini-14 must be serviced by Ruger and spare parts are only avaialable directly from the factory, a civilian can build an AR rifle with all of the componants that are readily available after purchasing the lower receiver which is designated the "firearm" by BATFE. This can be compared to the success of the VHS over the Beta video recording formats; as well as IBM PC's over the Apple PC's. Ease of maintenance and availability again trump what some may consider superior design.

A small manufacturer is making close quarters battle stocks for the Mini-14 that allow it to accept many of the componants and accesories available for the AR15. Although still too costly for most civilian Mini-14 owners, it does have the capability of allowing the Mini-14 "plinking" rifle to regain more serious stature among law enforcement for use as special QCB tool.

I own both rifles, mini-14 and AR-15. The mini-14 is a very accurate rifle if you do your homework on the guns rifle twist and select the proper bullet for that given twist. The very fact that the rifle is based off the M-14 which is still in use as a sniper rifle should be proof of this. I know that the accuracy issues are manly from the pre-03 rifles because the rifling twist rate varied depending on the year it was made. For some years had 10:1 rate then switch to 7:1 rates and now with the new versions 9:1 rates. That is the problem. My mini has a twist rate of 10:1 and is as of 2009 is 25 years old. I was using the 55 gr M193 round giving me 4 to 5 in groups. I did my homework on the bullet spec to twist rate relationship and found out that a 62 gr lead core bullet match the 10:1 twist rate the closest. I tested this and found that my groups went from basically 4-5 in groups to 1-2 in groups. The fact that the 223 rem was designed for the AR-15 means that most of the 223 rounds you can buy were ment for common twist rate of the AR-15, 11:1 and 9:1. Accuracy of the Mini-14 suffers the most from this because most of your bullets weren't ment for the Mini-14's odd twist rates. The best thing ruger did for the Mini-14 was change the twist rate to 9:1 in all the post-03 rifles giving the Mini-14 out of the box accuracty. As for parts: true the mini suffers greatly, but just look at my rifle 25 years old (heavily used) and shooting 1-2 in groups. The argument over Mini-14 vs AR-15 is very interseting, but maybe there should be a gun that takes the designe advantages of both rifles and incorpurates that into its design. The AR-15 has its flaws too in regards to accuracy. During feeding the bullet is scared which will have a huge affect on accuracy which is my only complaint about the rifle. In the Mini-14 the bullet is virtualy untouched during feeding. Ruger did a very good job on designing the feeding cycle of the mini-14, stoner not so much on the AR-15. You have your pro and cons with both guns. The mags of the mini are harder to load compared to the AR. It will take lots of practice to be as fast on loading the mini as it is for the AR, however the AR mag cause lots of jams in the AR system. but that was just some interesting tid bids that have nothing to do with accuracy. the thing is you get an AR that costs as little as a mini and they will be shooting very equally; you get a mini that costs as much as an AR and they will shoot equally. a statement like this requires a person who is famillar with both rifles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gulielmi2002 (talk • contribs) 18:42, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

Reverted the large scale deletion without discussion. Discussion is usually required before deleting entire sections, otherwise it is considered vandalism. Yaf 01:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Funny, I actually agree with the section on Bill Ruger and the Mag Capacity being left out of the Mini-14 article en masse, however a mention might be made and directed at the main article. Reverting the Ruby Ridge mention, however, defies logic.--Asams10 01:16, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

At least this is being discussed, unlike the wholesale deletion that seems to be the current method of "folks" that get TW installed for the first time and start removing "trivia" from every article in sight, by their definition of trivia, with no hint of building or following consensus :-) Getting back to the Bill Ruger and mag capacity section; a mention with a link to the main article would be fine for this. As for the mention of the Robert Hanson human hunter, I didn't see where this was especially notable, and deleted it a couple of days ago. However, the other criminal acts that are listed do appear notable, and should probably stay in the article. They are not trivia. Yaf 01:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed on all points.--Asams10 01:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, there is no place in the encyclopedia for this sort of trivia. The controversy section is nongermane to this article and better covered at Sturm, Ruger. The 2 mentions of criminal use are, again, trivial. Neither use generated legislation or affected sales of this rifle or had an impact on the Mini-14 in any way. The "users" section is, as evidenced by the rest of the section, devoted to institutional users of this model rifle, not individual uses of single Mini-14's. Whether or not a crime is notable has no bearing on its context when applied to other articles. I've been cleaning the Wiki of trivia since long before Twinkle was written, and as far as consensus, you 2 are the only people complaining about the trivia removal. If it bothers you so much, please join me at the Firearms project talk page, where we are formulating criteria for inclusion for this sort of trivia. Your input will be welcome. Also, I would direct your attention to WP:Vandal, good faith edits are NEVER to be characterized as vandalism and editors have been blocked for calling describing them as such in edit summaries. K1ng l0v3 01:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Yaf, myself, and about half a dozen have already gone over this and the concensus was reached without you. Your methods are to revert wholesale and leave a tiny comment saying why. Okay, if nobody disagrees, but when somebody disagrees, you fight with them instead of discussing it. This tyranical reversion history of yours does not help you get your point across when you FINALLY join the discussion. It seems that the VT shooting has sparked alot of "Johnny Come Lately's" like yourself who now want to bully their opinion on others. You remove half an article without discussing it? Might have been the right thing to do, but let somebody discuss it first. --Asams10 01:54, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

"Neither use generated legislation or affected sales of this rifle or had an impact on the Mini-14 in any way." That is incorrect. Please bear in mind that Wikipedia is not an US encyclopedia, it's it's a worldwide encyclopedia. The École Polytechnique massacre had no impact in the United States, but it clearly had a profound impact on Canadian gun control laws. — Red XIV ^(talk) 15:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a decent source that supports this? If so, then it certainly meets the criteria for inclusion and should go back in. Even something like a statement from an official of the Canadian firearms owner organization (their equivalent to the NRA, the name has slipped my mind) would be good enough for me. scot 20:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

National Firearms Association is the group. A quick search for "ruger" or "mini-14" on their site comes up empty. Canadian laws can be research on their Just Laws Web Site. Arthurrh 21:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Follow my link to the very well-sourced École Polytechnique massacre article and read up for yourself about its impact on gun control in Canada. — Red XIV ^(talk) 15:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed half an article? What are you talking about? I'm sorry if you like trivia but it does not belong in an encyclopedia. K1ng l0v3 01:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Have put in a link to the Sturm, Ruger article in the controversy section, and trimmed the controversy section. Since this is a controversy that largely arose from the Mini-14, though, there is a good reason to put a mention of it in this article. However, since it spread well beyond the Mini-14, it should probably be in the Sturm, Ruger article, at least for the bulk of the controversy content. As for liking "trivia", that is not the point at all. I personally don't like trivia, as I think is probably obvious from my contributions to the Walther P22, Glock 19, Dawson College shooting, Virginia Tech massacre, and a myriad of other firearm-related articles in which I have participated in building consensus, and discussing whether or not we should insert crime details in firearm articles. Notability is the primary consideration that should be the basis for determining whether or not to include mentions of crimes into firearm articles. It is simply that what K1ng l0v3 thinks is trivia, or what any one editor (myself included) thinks is trivia, is not really the proper approach. Instead, we should discuss the content among editors on the talk page, reach a consensus, and proceed, instead of the edit warring, which TW seems to make so easy, and which has seemingly been the new standard since Cho cut loose at Va Tech. Trivia does not belong in an encyclopedia, of course, but notable criminal acts with a firearm, from which a change in gun laws occurred, and which had widespread notability, are not trivia, but are very valid points to include in a firearms article. (Incidentally, I am not proposing that the Palm Bay, FL shooting of 1987, in which 6 were killed, and 14 were injured with a Mini-14, should be included in this article, as this spree killing did not result in any changes in gun laws, other than possibly confirming that newly-introduced CCW laws in Florida were a "good thing". -- A civilian with a gun in the parking lot of the grocery kept the shooter pinned down, allowing a large number of customers to escape through the rear door of the grocery, after two police had been shot (they died), thereby keeping the shooter from entering the grocery until it was nearly empty, and saving many lives. But, this spree killing is not notable relative to the Mini-14.) Yaf 05:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

1986 FBI Miami shootout

The FBI decided to switch calibers after the 1986 shootout because it felt it was outgunned. Every single source I've linked has supported that, our own articles support that, every person who knows anything about it would support that if you asked. Why don't you stop removing sources that support the content and find some that meet your own standards? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 14:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Ruger AC556F

• AGAINST MERGE- Someone wants to Merge this article with the Mini-14 article. I oppose this merge as while the AC-556 is based on the Mini-14 they are mechanically different enough to have a limited number of parts in common. I would much rather the article be re-written. Paulwharton 19:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The only differnces i spoted were in the length of the reciver and other very trivial things such as flash supperser or fully automatic which is very common thing not to have in US.(ForeverDEAD 22:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC))

• FOR - I think it should be merged and listed as a variant. Arthurrh 22:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
• FOR - Definitely the same weapon. The fire control group is different, yes, but it is quite obviously a variant and a more minor variant than the '180 series' Mini-14 is a 'variant' of the '181 series' Mini-14, yet both of those are listed in this article as is the newest variant and the ranch rifle. Do we really need five different articles? How about a separate article for each stock variation too? That folding stock model has more mechanical differences than any other variants. To keep them separate is ABSURD.--Asams10 03:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
• FOR-Just not enough differnces to warrant a seperate artical.(ForeverDEAD 19:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC))
• For - it's just a variant. Arthur 05:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
• For - another variant. Should be merged. Yaf 05:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and merged it. From April to November there were 6 comments, 5 for and 1 against. --Asams10 12:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

New image

Today I uploaded an image of the Mini-14 to replace the partial image in the infobox, but suddenly I find myself wondering if there is too much background in it, such as the packages with a brand name on the. I could crop the image and upload it in the place of the current one, but would rather not if it isn't necessary. Does anyone think this is necessary?--LWF 23:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I think cropping would help - it's pretty busy. Arthurrh 05:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Technical data

Is there really any need for this section since we have an infobox? Maybe the section just for the magazines should stay (or be added to the infobox), but I can't see any point of having the other information twice. While there is some information in it that is not in the infobox, I'm sure it can be added. Hayden120 02:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion below was merged from AC-556 article

This article needs some serious help

Someone knowledgeable about this weapon, and of course has reliable sources, needs to severely overhaul this article. The way it stands right now, it's primarily about the Ruger Mini 14. It mentions the AC556F once, and only to say that it's a variant of the Mini 14. Parsecboy 23:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I am going to try and re-write the article to be centered on the weapon in question. the two firearms while apearing Identicle are mechanically different firearms. Paulwharton 18:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The article was clearly a direct copy of this article, so I deleted the copyvio text and created a basic stub. If I get some time I'll try to enlarge it some more, but I ask that anyone with more knowledge on the weapon help as well. Thanks. Parsecboy 12:46, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do when I have some time later today. Hogg's book does have some information on this one.--LWF 12:53, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Naming Conventions

5.56x45mm NATO is a provably incorrect name for the cartridge. Its NATO designation, per STANAG, is 5.56mm NATO. The Wiki naming guidelines clearly state that they are not to be applied inflexibly. That apparently means little to those who worship form over substance. Emerson was right: A foolish consistency is indeed the hobgoblin of little minds.--Ana Nim (talk) 22:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, 5.56x45mm is perfectly correct here, while the STANAG designation isn't. The Ruger manual specifically says The Mini-14 Ranch Rifle is designed to use either standardized U.S. military, or factory loaded sporting .223 (5.56mm) cartridges manufactured in accordance with U.S. industry practice, which covers additional rounds (such as the M193) and reguarding STANAG rounds, technically only covers that which is designated M855. Some models of the Ruger Mini-14 will also chamber the 5.56x43mm, so a length designation is certainly helpful. scot (talk) 22:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your comment: 5.56X45mm is perfectly correct in this context. My point is that "5.56x45mm NATO" is a bogus term imposed on the readership by a couple of contributors who are slavishly following a naming convention. Use one or the other, as appropriate, but you can't combine them and be technically accurate.--Ana Nim (talk) 17:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Variant Name is Technically Incorrect

The 7.62mm version of the Mini-14 is the Mini Thirty, not the Mini-30, with the number spelled out. Easy fix. 202.165.204.253 (talk) 07:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC) Mac

"Technical Note"

• The following edit was moved from the article due to lack of formatting, editors are invited to format and re-insert this if it has merit. I have no opinion. Regards, Chuckiesdad (talk) 06:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: US .30 cal (7.62) is 0.308" diameter, euopian 7.62mm ( AKA 30 cal) is .312" diameter (inches) ,

There is express DANGER in shooting .312 ammo in a Ruger that is chambered for the US .308 cal. breach pressures can reach explosive levels and kill you. Be sure of the ammo your shoting. Russian and most other NON-US ammo is .312". As far as I know no ruger mini-30's were chambered for this .312 ammo.

This is incorrect. The Ruger Mini-Thirty is designed to handle the Russian 7.62x39mm ammunition. Said ammunition has a nminal bullet diameter of .311" to .312". The Bore of the Ruger was actually designed to stabilize .308" bullets as well, though not as accurately as a dedicated US .30 caliber barrel. --Winged Brick (talk) 13:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, you are correct in that Russian ammo may be used in the Mini-30. However, the Mini-30 manual is at best vague on that point. Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 23:57, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Crap about the .223 and 5.56x45mm not being interchangeable.

The Ruger Mini-14 manual states: "The RUGER® MINI-14® RANCH RIFLES are chambered for the .223 Remington (5.56mm) cartridge. The Mini-14 Ranch Rifle is designed to use either standardized U.S. military, or factory loaded sporting .223 (5.56mm) cartridges manufactured in accordance with U.S. industry practice." --Nukes4Tots (talk) 19:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

AC-556 Manual Link

The external link to the AC-556 manual appears to be broken. I'm sure there is another location on the web that could be found with a little searching though. Just a heads up. 66.191.19.68 (talk) 16:20, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Found one. That was a chore. Yeah, Stevespages went down due to user abuse. From previous dealings with him, I got the impression he was getting fed up with people going on and downloading everything he had. It bogged down his server and his computers to the point that he just gave up on it. He was providing a service and peope took advantage. He had a message to that effect on his web site. Too bad. You can still download most of this stuff over P2P networks. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 02:55, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for updating the link. 66.191.19.68 (talk) 18:25, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

It appears to be dead again. I will do some research, but if anyone has the link, it would be valuable. Never mind, I found a current link. --Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 02:59, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Reason the Bermuda Regiment is left off of Users?

en:Bermuda Regiment recruits clean their en:Ruger Mini-14 rifles, prior to shooting on a 25m range at Warwick Camp, during the 1993 Recruit Camp.

Is it no longer the case that the Bermuda Regiment uses the Mini-14? There's a neat 1993 pic of it on WikiCommons.

If I recall correctly, the Bermuda Regiment wants to switch to the SA-80 rifle like the rest of the British Army but as far as I know the changeover has yet to occur. 24.46.236.67 (talk) 18:28, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

'Crimes' section

I tend to agree with the removal of this by the IP editor. Should an article about a gun include a section detailing crimes in which it has been used? I really do not think so, does anyone else have any thoughts? O Fenian (talk) 08:46, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I support this wholeheartedly. Crime section should not under any circumstance be included in a firearms article. The article is for information relating to the technical details and legitmate details of the firearm under discussion. Adding crime data insinuates a distinctly anti Second Amendment flavor that does not belong in the article. (The IP Editor that just nuked that section on the Mini 14 Article- It was promptly and erroneously restored.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.150.239.200 (talk) 03:32, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Guns has yet to achieve total consensus on this issue (very technical and deliberate-moving WProject), but the general theme is that crimes should be listed on a gun's article if there's so particularly notable feature of that gun's usage in the crime. So crimes where the particular gun used got a lot of focus in the media coverage or later legislation, etc. It's basically laid out here at Wikipedia:GUNS#Criminal_use, with a link to the discussion. It's actually similar to the WP:GUNS policy on popular culture, where it's notable if a gun is now indelibly associated with a given character in popular conception (Dirty Harry and the S&W 29), but not "in episode 35 of Random Japanese Anime, a guard in the background is carrying...". MatthewVanitas (talk) 11:54, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, thank you for that. I can now see that the last two incidents would belong, but I am not convinced Gordon Kahl would belong on there based on that? O Fenian (talk) 20:00, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

The Sammy Weaver reference seems to fail Wikipedia:GUNS#Criminal_use. Thoughts on removal? --Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 20:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd say prune it. Burden of proof that it's notable for the firearm is on the editor who wants to add it. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 19:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I say that this section is "anti gun" propaganda. I looked up the wikipedia entry for knives as well as straight edge razors, and found no such similar entry. I am sure some editor has some very legitimate reason that will quell any such suspicions on my part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.81.81.82 (talk) 13:10, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted the removal of "Crimes" (and, inexplicable, removal of "Users" which simply lists countries who've issued the firearm). I'm perfectly fine with filtering out non-notable criminal usage, but accusing the Crimes section of having a political bias and deleting it without consensus is not the way to go. The M38 Carcano is indelibly associated with the Kennedy assassination, and it would be disingenuous to argue "it's not the M38 Carcano's fault" as justification for removal. The question is not a moral or political one, it's simply an issue of whether, in the cultural conciousness, a given firearm is associated with given historical events. MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:28, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Prep for GA status

I've been running through the article making little tweaks here and there, citing things, calling for citations etc... in preperation for GA review. I feel this article is already quite good, and would fair well as a GA candidate. Can anyone else comment? -Deathsythe (talk) 19:21, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Breivik and the Utoya shooting

I see that folks have tried to add this event to the list (with varying degrees of sourcing), and even the sourced ones have been removed as WP:UNDUE. I'm not sure I agree, given that it appears this was the primary weapon of a record-breaking shooting spree. I'm all for leaving out minor crimes, especially where the gun used didn't get much media visibility, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. Check out the Stats.grok.se records: [1] this article's traffic has increased from not quite 1,000/day to 15,000/day. Due precisely to the media mention of the Mini-14, readers are coming here to learn more, and I fear that if we work to prevent the Utoya shooting being mentioned here it will start to look evasive or politically-driven. I submit we should have a brief, appropriate mention that the Mini-14 was used in the Utoya shooting, and include the most authoritative and politically neutral reference available. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm on the fence about this, myself. Personally, I don't think it warrants mention unless the norweigians pass yet even more restrictions on their subjects as a result. Yes, it was a tragedy, but sourcing from Blogs isn't exactly helping matters, either.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:16, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The news sources for this pretty much suck as well. One euro-rag says the mini-14 and the mini-30 shoot the same round (they do not). One "doctor" claims he used "dum-dum" bullets, another says the bullets "exploded", yet another says they "disintegrated", I do not know if this is a language barrier or if these people are actually that stupid. Regardless, I have yet to find a credible Neutral source.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

All of the legit norwegian & swedish news sources - NRK, SVD, DN, are saying the same: he used a glock & a mini 14 that he modified - he also purchased "dum-dum" bullets , bullets who "expand" when entering the body (this I guess you know more about than I do), which are only allowed for game hunting in Norway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.182.148.132 (talk) 17:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, softpoints or hollowpoints. not "dum dums". I've read plenty of reliable sources where he purchased a mini-14 and saw the pic of him posing with a tapcoed "tacticool" monstrosity of a mini14 complete with a buttplug attached to the rails, but none actually saying he used it in the attack. Early news reports said it was an AK-47, so you can see the problem here. The one decent source said he finished off survivors with head shots from a shotgun.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

"In his manifesto, the suspect said that he made an application for a Glock 17 and that he acquired a semi-automatic Ruger Mini 14. He said that he owned a Benelli Nova Pump- Action and a 308 win bolt rifle. The police have declined to say what make of gun he used for the attacks or how he acquired the weapons."[2] - that's all we really have at this point.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:49, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Mike, the translated page I originally referenced on my edit, and sent you on your talk page is a reputable news source sent to me from a friend over in Europe. It certainly counts as a WP:RS. -Deathsythe (talk) 19:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

OK, can you write it reflecting how its use in this crime is shaping legislation in both countries or at least in sweden? If so, I have less of a problem with it than simply glorifying the tools used by a cowardly mass-murderer. I got burned once on a "translated source", I don't want that to happen again.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Added the information with a reference from a (Swedish) newspaper on how it was used in the shooting, talking about the legalities surrounding "that type" of weapons, et cetera. Sorry to revert the revert immediately, I was typing in the reference when you did your revert. :) 94.255.146.100 (talk) 23:42, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I've spent way too much time trying to read that news article...who is the author? Is it an editorial? Are they changing the laws because of this? Help a brother out!:) --Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 23:46, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

OK, fixed...don't know how neutral those sources are, but they sure are not accurate on several points. Hard to believe what passes for journalism in developed countries these days.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 23:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Australia is calling for a ban on all semi-autos as a direct result of this shooting. link -Deathsythe (talk) 03:30, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Looks like that's talk of a ban on semiauto pistols because the guy had a Glock (are the greens bigger there than in the US?, here they're a joke). I think minis have been banned there since Dunblane. Either way, I'm glad I don't live in any of those counttries and feel sorry for my family members stuck in Oz. This could have been avoided if the norges checked bags of people boarding boats and could have been stopped if their police were armed and there 9-1-1 people woud have stopped hanging up on people not calling in about the bombing. I guess its easier to blame guns than to hold people accountable for their actions.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 03:39, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I would submit that, even if no new legislation were proposed, that this would be notable in that it appears this firearm is already associated, in the public perception, with this crime and vice versa, which is along the lines of the criteria of the loose WP:WikiProject Guns measure of notability for crimes/media. Not going for good-gun/bad-gun politics, just noting (although clearly we're at an early phase) it's looking like "Mini-14" is gaining some space in the public consciousness as "that gun used in Utoya". As a rough Notability parallel, the Walther PPK definitely needs to mention James Bond, since a large number of people, hearing the term, would say "that's the gun James Bond uses" and plenty of non-gun-savvy folks, if asked "what gun does James Bond use?" would say "Walther PPK". MatthewVanitas (talk) 04:39, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm just not seeing that, I guess. Most non-gun types have made no comment about the gun(s) used and the gun owners I know, almost to a man can't believe he hit anyone using a Mini-14 unless the victims were less than 10 feet away. That or the tactical dildo hanging apparatus of a rifle that he posed with for his pictures looks less like a mini-14 and more like a third tier videogame weapon. Still, I think more people think of the Glock and VT, but that debate went on for days and you don't see VT mentioned in the Glock article. Maybe its bigger news over there, but we must keep in mind what it means in relationship to the rest of the article. To be honest when I think of mini-14's, I think of "The A-Team", then I think of how they're the most inaccurate rifles for the money and they should only be a $300 rifle and not the price of an entry level AR15. None of that happens to be in the article, but I'll bet you get more hits with "inaccurate mini-14" than you would for "norway mini-14".--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 13:44, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

When I sold them in the late 80's, they were in the 300s...stainless was about $50 more than the blued model. As owner of Minis, I concur that they aren't the most accurate for the money and surprised that they fetch that much $$ now. I'm an accessorizer and love improving a firearm if possible but I have to laugh when I see that garish kludge that Breivik is posing with in the photos. I'd be shocked if it was in that configuration when he used it. Looks front-heavy.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 16:37, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

...causing the Socialist Democrats to review gun legislation in Norway and Sweden

. That is not entirely correct. It is causing the governments of Norway and Sweden to review gun laws, not the social democratic parties (who are not in power in Sweden).Bobbythemazarin (talk) 19:16, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Just going by the source material where it says socialist dermocraps.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:20, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Tactical model receiver markings

I noticed that under the Variants > Mini-14 Tactical subsection the article notes that these models of the rifle are marked as "Tactical Rifle" on the receiver. However I just purchased a Mini-14 Tactical and the receiver is still marked as "Ranch Rifle". Rifle is serial # 581-79094. Might be worth making a note that the Tactical model may have either marking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.58.223.186 (talk) 01:49, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

The A-Team

You can't talk about the Mini-14 without mentioning The A-Team...like Dirty Harry and his S&W .44 Magnum or James Bond (007) and his Walther PPK...they are inseparable. I suggest that we add the fallowing line (in bold) to the History section.

The Mini-14 was first introduced in 1974 by Ruger. Mini-14 is derived from the military M14 rifle implying a miniature version of the M14. Ruger used the M14 as a model for the new rifle while incorporating numerous innovations and cost-saving engineering changes. The Mini-14 proved popular with small-game hunters, ranchers, law enforcement, security personnel and target shooters. Hollywood helped to drive the Mini-14's popularity by showcasing the stainless folding stock Mini-14 in the original A-Team TV Show and it's brief cameo in The A-Team Movie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 (talk) 02:11, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

really a need for a crimes section?

Is there really a need for a crimes section in this article? To me, that just screams an anti-gun bias. If a crime is committed, what does it matter what the weapon is? Really. Violent crime will happen whether the weapon is a gun, a baseball bat, or even a bulldozer. I haven't noticed any other weapon pages with this type of info included, so what is the purpose of it here, other than being a soapbox for someone who would like to see tighter restrictions on firearms ownership?--L1A1 FAL (talk) 22:57, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

In its current format, as a simple bulleted list of crimes, no. The section should be reformed or removed. If the section actually discussed controversy over the Mini-14 (specifically) that resulted from said crimes (and presented a neutral point of view), then it might be worth keeping, per WP:GUNS. ROG5728 (talk) 00:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with its removal per Wikipedia:Firearms#Criminal use.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 00:50, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed.--Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 03:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 04:23, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

5.56 NATO is NOT safe to fire in a Mini 14

The Mini 14 is NOT specified to fire 5.56 NATO ammo. Ruger specifies "sporting" or "military standard" 5.56 only, read the manual. Then look at your receiver, it says .223 Remington, that is the ONLY ammo spec stamped on it. Do a quick search and you will find warnings from Colt and Winchester that 5.56 NATO fires at much higher chamber pressures than .223 and are NOT safely interchangeable. Who knows what 5.56mm "sporting rounds" or "military standard" means, never seen that on a cartridge box. While before I knew this I put plenty of 5.56 NATO through my mini 14, I now know why they were MUCH LOUDER than the .223 marked rounds... may work fine for 10,000 rounds (like anyone could afford that) but maybe 10k+1 plants a bolt frag in your head. Check on it yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.3.187.226 (talk) 02:41, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, the guy above is wrong. Except for the target models, it says right on the manufactures spec sheet and web site “Caliber: 5.56mm NATO/.223 Rem.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Twsarch (talk • contribs) 21:50, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Rifles with 5.56x45 chamber dimensions that safely handle both 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington are often marked .223 Remington out of political correctness. It is best to consult with the manufacturer and follow their recommendations on use of 5.56 in a .223 rifle. Naaman Brown (talk) 03:18, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Rifle grenades?

Many of the photos of the AC-556 as they appear in Jane's guides and in marketing literature depict small rifle grenades with the rifle. Should we include a very short, sourced, reference to the capability and type of grenades available for the system? Does anyone know where we could dig up a decent source for this? I'll check a few standard texts. Thanks. --Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 03:09, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Are they the Israeli bullet-trap grenades?--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 04:22, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I believe they are launched via a blank cartridge. The Small Arms Review makes a reference to this here. --Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 17:49, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

The manual references the grenades as tear gas and smoke of "approved type". I am not seeing a reference to anti-personnel grenades in the manual. I'll check a few other sources. --Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 17:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Bolt-action only Minis?

Should there be a reference to the straight-pull, bolt-action only Minis produced in limited numbers for the UK market? [3] A bit esoteric, but it would be a variant nonetheless.--Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 16:16, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I would say it is worthy of mention.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, that sounds like a plan. It does appear to be a production item with its own coding (BOA), so a note in the variants section would be a good idea. Some additional sourcing behind the Ruger auction site wouldn't hurt.--Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 19:25, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The material sourced by Security Arms ...

The other calibers section regarding the XGI and AK-magazine Mini-30 may need a second look. While the experimental XGI is something that should indeed be covered, the sourcing for the statement is Security Arms. Even more suspect is an alleged AK-magazine fed variant made for the U.S. Naval Special Warfare Command. Do we know if the aforementioned site has any editorial oversight?

As far as I know, the XGI was never produced due to accuracy and reliability issues, not from a lawsuit filed by Springfield armory. A reliable source either way would be good. Also, I cannot find any other reference to an AK-mag version of the Mini-30 anywhere else besides the aforementioned site. Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 02:30, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Just an update. I did a little more research and the book Ruger & His Guns: A History of the Man, the Company & Their Firearms appears to indicate that the XGI experiencing issues was the reason behind the line never entering production. There is no reference to a lawsuit from Springfield Armory. I also did some more looking for the Mini-30 claim and find absolutely no reference anywhere else in some standard texts (e.g., Jane's, the aforementioned book, etc.), so have removed it for now.--Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 16:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The only thing I have ever heard regarding the mini30 and the Navy was that it was developed so units behind enemy lines could make use of caches of "found 7.62X39 ammunition"; there may be a reference to this in one of the GD Books on Assault Weapons. I do not think it was ever an issued item and have never heard of the AK Mag variant.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

If we can dig up a solid reference of the Navy's use of the Mini-30, that would be a valuable addition. --Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 19:24, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll double check tonight. I think it might be in Marcinko's book, too...or else Dick told me about it, himself. I can't remember which.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:56, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Excellent. Thanks. Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 20:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, I searched Marcinko's book Rogue Warrior and found a reference to the Mini-14, but not for the 30. He did author some other texts thought.--Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 03:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

He might have just told me, then. It wouldn't be in the other books. I'll check GD.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 03:48, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Why on Earth would the U.S. Navy Special Warfare Command, even think about issuing Mini-30's to units who operate behind enemy lines, when it has wharehouses filled with AK-47's? It sounds like an urban legend to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 (talk) 02:00, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

They didn't use them Gene, it was why they were developed, though: a stainless steel US Made weapon chambered in 7.62 X 39. They had other issues, too like bore diameter being off a bit. US Ammo works ok in them, but not the real Russian/Chicom stuff.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 03:48, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Title is incorrect

Sturm, Ruger only gave in to calling it a "Mini-14" (parenthesis intact) only after constant disinformation and confusion over the rifle's actual name being the Ruger Ranch Rifle, a varminter-class .223 (.22) firearm.

You really haven't offered an argument here. Sources? In any event, the common name policy applies. Although our article doesn't mention it, Bill Ruger was hoping to cash in on the US military's seeming dislike of the AR-15 design. It was never intended to be a varmint rifle; it only got there after the military didn't replace the AR.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 16:55, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Query

Wikipedia talk:Harmonious editing club#Ruger Mini-14. benzband (talk) 09:14, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Major Excision

Just removed a mass of undocumented/unreferenced material which amount to promotion/PR for Ruger. Regards, Tapered (talk) 23:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

My bad. Some of the material WAS referenced -- by company promo material. Tapered (talk) 06:05, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Verification

• All new Mini-14s are built with integral scope bases, non-folding ghost ring aperture rear sight and a winged front sight similar to that used on the Ruger Police Carbine.
  • Lewis, Jack (28 February 2011). "Today's Mini-14". Assault Weapons. Iola, Wisconsin: Gun Digest Books. pp. 128–130. ISBN 1-4402-2400-5.

Is this the right source? I can't find any mention of ghost rings in the chapter on the Mini-14. But I only checked the Google version linked from this citation - could it be in a different edition? Rezin (talk) 21:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Users : France

Guess the correction I had made a few years ago didn't stand the test of time. The French users of the AC-556 aren't the Gendarmerie (they are military so they use FA-MAS rifle). The French users are the CRS (Compagnie Républicaines de Sécurité), which are the riot control elements of the Police Nationale (French Police, works only in cities). The French AC-556s were bought from Ruger somewhere in the 1970s and their local designation is the Mousqueton AMD, after the name used for short bolt-action rifles carried by the Gendarmerie at the start of the 20th century. The AC-556 was previously used by the special forces group GIGN (replaced by the HK 53 in the 80s) and the Direction de l'Administration Pénitentiaire (Prison services)(replaced by the HK G36 in the 2000s).

The CRS officers are easily identified by the big white shield with CRS they wear on the lest side breast of their uniform. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.130.184.47 (talk) 15:50, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I have added a couple cites. They do indeed appear to issue variants of the Mini-14 and AC-556.--Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 18:52, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing the error, 92.130.184.47, and thanks for improving the references, Surv1v4l1st. Shootingillustrated.com is a good source: it has a defined editorial staff, a corporation standing behind the publication, and the articles are signed. However from what I can see forgottenweapons.com would not qualify as a reliable source. Based on its appearance, it looks like a group blog whose contributors are anonymous.[4] I'll add it to the list to evaluate at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Firearms‎#Sources. Rezin (talk) 20:04, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure on ForgottenWeapons either. Most of the articles appear to be quite solid, but the degree (if any) of editorial oversight isn't real clear. That one can be removed if need be.Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 22:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Anders Behring Breivik

Hi, is it relevant to state in the article that Anders Behring Breivik used a Ruger Mini-14 in his massacre on Utoya island? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/norway-shooters-mini-14-t_b_911155.html Bobbythemazarin (talk) 23:14, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I would say yes Chwyatt (talk) 08:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

No, it is not unless it has caused them to change their laws. Please see this to understand why. This was also discussed previously and is section 20 in the archive. I'll also add that the author of that piece did some cherry-picking to push an agenda. It wouldn't vet well.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 11:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

And Marc Lépine used one in the École Polytechnique massacre... In that case, it DID lead to more stringent gun control in Canada. Its use in the two most significant modern mass murders in two otherwise normally peaceful countries certainly deserves a mention. A Mini-14 was also used in the Lockheed Martin shooting and the 1986 FBI Miami shootout (which resulted in changes in law-enforcement policy).

It is asinine to argue that the Mini-14's role in these various crimes is not significantly worthy of mention here. Think about it from the standpoint of a potential legislator – when deciding whether or not to restrict access to the Ruger Mini-14, information about its use as the weapon of choice in two major spree shootings is extremely important. Likewise for the anti-gun-control advocate: they can point to the Mini-14 as examples where existing gun control regulations did not work in preventing mass murder. Bueller 007 (talk) 18:43, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Unless anyone can give me a good reason not to I'm going to go ahead and add that information. ẈỄ'ḸḼ ṪḜḀṘ ỶƠṴṜ ṠǾṸḶ ḀṖẤṘṮ... Ǐ Đŏ Ñőť Ŗëșρθ₦ḏ Ẁ€ḷḹ Тό Ḉṟḭṭịḉḯṧṃ 23:14, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Reasons already given here and the fact that someone here is saying "Think about it from the standpoint of a potential legislator" means you are pushing a non-neutral POV. Again, please see this.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:47, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see a mention of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, I'd personally argue that it was a rather high profile crime involving the weapon, especially the effect it had on policies of the FBI and for law enforcement in general. 95.109.103.15 (talk) 21:01, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Memorial plaque

This article isn't for memorializing. This image is essentially undue weight in this article and doesn't belong. Relevant policy states "The purpose of an image is to increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter..."
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 10:34, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Part of the article's subject matter is the Montreal massacre. The plaque commemorates the massacre, and includes the names of the victims. So the presumption that the picture doesn't pertain the article is illogical. On the other hand, the pretty picture of the smiling Bermudian soldiers is gone. Let's hope that nothing similar accrues. Tapered (talk) 02:02, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

No. The article is not about the Montreal massacre and a plaque with the names doesn't further a readers understanding of the Mini-14. Your logic is faulty. A reader can click through to read about the massacre if they wish.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:14, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

It's an illustration of the results of "Criminal Use" of the M-14. The title of the section. If it's negative...it still belongs in Wikipedia. There's no 'positive only' policy that I've read. If there is, please link to it. Tapered (talk) 08:18, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Concur with removal. It belongs in the article about the incident, not here. - BilCat (talk) 08:42, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Unsupported categorical statement. The issue of "does this illustrate 'Criminal use'?" isn't addressed. Please show that it doesn't illustrate criminal use and I'll defer. I'd be happy to post pictures of Breivik's criminal handiwork (which are absolutely not a memorial), but none of those images are available for Wikipedia, so far. But now that I mention it, I'll get busy. I'd certainly be happy to dispense with the memorial if I can get permission. Tapered (talk) 09:10, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

It's a plaque of names, not a picture of the gun. It illustrates nothing. You've admitted it can be replaced, which is basically admitting it shouldn't be here in the first place. I've removed it again, edit war at your own peril. - BilCat (talk) 09:49, 27 September 2015 (UTC).

1) You're edit warring. 2)Please read this: "The purpose of an image is to increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter, usually by directly depicting people, things, activities, and concepts described in the article. The relevant aspect of the image should be clear and central," from WP:IUP. I labeled the pic to show its relevance. It doesn't have to be an image of the central topic, only something from the article--like the Montreal Massacre. I'm not going to follow suit and edit war. Tomorrow, I'll bring it to the attention of the relevant forum, whatever. Meantime, there's a foto of Breivik holding what appears to be a souped up M-14, in the public domain. I have to get verifiable confirmation. That pic will be 'bullet-proof.' Tapered (talk) 10:51, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

3) Please explain how the fact that a better image exists means that an existing, relevant image doesn't belong in an article. Tapered (talk) 13:29, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• Posted notifications at both WT:MILHIST and WT:Firearms for more input.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:27, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and posted at relative forums per Tapered's suggestion above. Are there any other pertinent forums that should be notified?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:31, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

De facto canvassing, seeking support. One of the dispute resolution forums would be appropriate. I'm trying to decide which. Tapered (talk) 12:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• Remove The article is about the weapon, not about its overall use in action. This image belongs in an article devoted to the incident. TomStar81 (Talk) 13:58, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
• Remove Per above, stated as well as anything I'd say. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 19:07, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
• Remove as stated above, this is semi-ludicrous.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:04, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
• A photo of a memorial plaque doesn't seem to add anything to the article about the the Ruger Mini-14. This is not an article about a massacre, but a about a model of rifle, so Remove. I would question whether even a picture of Anders Brevick posing with a Ruger mini-14 does not run foul of WP:UNDUE.Nigel Ish (talk) 23:14, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Does this image belong in Traffic collision? After all, there's not even a section on injuries caused by traffic accidents.

Man with visible face scars, injured in a car accident.

Tapered (talk) 12:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

And while on the subject, all of the above editors who cite 'not a memorial' are misconstruing the policy. It states, "Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements. Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others who do not meet such requirements. (For valid use examples outside of article space, see WP:RIP.)" It's concerned with WP:N, not (perceived) undue weight to sentiment. WP:NOTMEMORIAL is irrelevant to the image.

(After research) The correct category of article emphasis balance is WP:BALASPS, not WP:UNDUE, which concerns outlier concepts. The picture is a tame illustration of the outcome of "Criminal Use" of the weapon. How is that unbalanced? Exactly which Wikipedia rule, concept, meme, etc, etc, states that an image must include the object of the article, and not some section of the article? Like the traffic accident victim, for instance. Tapered (talk) 14:33, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Something that you've written further up the page, "One of the dispute resolution forums would be appropriate. I'm trying to decide which...." seems to indicate that you have no intention of accepting or abiding by the current consensus. Is that right? If so, there is no real reason to continue discussion with you as that wouldn't be in good faith on your part. I think there are six editors that have agreed on the removal of the image from the article so far and you haven't made a convincing argument to keep it in. Go ahead and file for dispute resolution and let them come in and look the situation over. They may be able to help you at this impasse.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:50, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Just wanted to see if you could answer any of the more of my reasons for inclusion and against your cohort's (and it is a cohort) arguments. Evidently not, or perhaps not interested. Tapered (talk) 18:16, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

I see the new RFC put up by Tapered, who seems intent on keeping the photograph of the memorial, even against clear page consensus. I have responded. I'm unswayed by Tapered's arguments in the sections above and also think the user's attempts to cite WP policies and guidelines are unconvincing (and border on WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior). When editors disagree on Wikipedia, and we frequently do, we hold civil discussions to measure page consensus. I trust when consensus as measured by the RFC below is clear, Tapered will drop the stick. BusterD (talk) 21:31, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Is the photo in the Criminal Use section relevant?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

.... here is the entire RfC discussion...

Should the "Criminal Use" section contain a photo of the Plaque of the Ecole Polytechnique Massacre victims?

• Remove The image has nothing at all to do with the subject matter and adds nothing neutral or relevant to the section. The Mini-14 is a tool. That some people have used the tool criminally is an unfortunate fact and might reasonably be argued to belong in the pagespace. Memorializing the victims of one incident in pagespace about one of the weapons used is inappropriate. The image does seem to be used correctly at the perpetrator's page and at pagespace for the event and the institution. Not here. BusterD (talk) 21:19, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

• Remove BusterD is right & I really can't say it better. This is an effort to make the rifle accountable, which is usual in the gun control argument. It's wrong in popular media & has no place here. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 21:29, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

• Remove: I said it before and I'll say it again: The article is about the weapon, not about its overall use in action. This image belongs in an article devoted to the incident. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

• Remove. The image is not relevant in that it tells us nothing about the gun. (I am responding via notice placed at WP:NPOVN.) - Location (talk) 22:34, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Comment Full disclosure: I'm the originator of this RFC. I'd like to thank all the commenters for an excellent exposition of their POVs. However, none of them have tied their expositions to any Wikipedia policy or Wikipedia guidelines, let alone explained how the image violates such policies or guidelines. The relevant policy/guideline states, "The purpose of an image is to increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter, usually by directly depicting people, things, activities, and concepts described in the article. The relevant aspect of the image should be clear and central."

Here's a logical argument for the inclusion of the image. 1)The article contains a section entitled "Criminal Use." 2)The Ecole Polytechnique Massacre is listed in this section. 3)The Ecole Polytechnique Massacre was perpetrated using an M-14. 4)The picture illustrates an outcome of said criminal use. 5)The language of the picture's label describes the connection of points 1 through 4 in neutral language with no "hot" words. I believe this dovetails nicely with the guideline. It illustrates an activity already described in the article and the label states, in clear and neutral language, how it relates to said activity. I hope future comments can address this central issue. Tapered (talk) 23:36, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Tapered (talk) 23:36, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Lets start with the blatant violation of the NPOV policy. Your POV pushing has no place in this article, and frankly the fact that all you have done is battle everyone else for inclusion of your exclusively held point of view is extraordinarily disruptive. We discussed this before, consensus said lose the image, and now your being a dick in dragging this up again when you were the only one who lost on the deal. Is there any part of this that rings a bell? Its all there, every argument, and counter argument, every policy approved process to determine that the image shouldn't be in the article. And you should know that this is a dangerous point of view, you were blocked for nonconstructive editing on pages relating to pro-life movement some four years ago. We don't own pages here, so this time lets try abiding by the official decision to remove the image. TomStar81 (Talk) 04:41, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Let's see. Yes, I was banned four years ago, and almost again last year, in part because of a typing mistake on my part (really, and not trying to duck responsibility for either). So you bring that up to insinuate that my behavior here approaches either of those occasions--which it doesn't. We're a few hours into this process, let's see if I'm alone at the end. If so, too bad. I've stated my argument logically. I notice you didn't try to refute it logically with reference to Wikipedia policy. You only labelled my behavior, again without any attempt to describe how my actions here dovetail with the labels. From my point of view, and I suspect others though I won't canvass to find them, most of the arguments against the image are POV. And while I don't own anything @ Wikipedia, I did initiate this RFC, so please watch your language. Tapered (talk) 05:32, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Very well then; I'll take your advice and let the RFC speak for me. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:08, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

• Remove per the pertinence section of our Manual of Style page on images, which states that "Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly and directly related to the article's topic." This would be the relevant Wikipedia guideline that the above editors would've tied their arguments to if they had decided to devote any time to finding such a common sense policy. It is true that the memorial plaque is indirectly relevant/related to the Ruger Mini-14. However the plaque neither mentions nor depicts the gun (for good reason), and thus adds nothing to the article besides an appeal to emotion. Since the plaque at least a step removed from the subject matter of the article, I don't find it credible that it can be seen as "significantly and directly related to the article's topic." The massacre is linked, and the plaque is rightfully there. I'll also note that the above discussion seems to have come to a consensus, but the opener of this RfC didn't like it and started this thread, a textbook example of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 05:40, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
• Remove (well, it is removed, but please don't include it). I don't see that it is significantly related to the topic of the article. The plaque does not depict the weapon, and at least one other weapon was used in the assault. In addition, the material in the Criminal Use section is not properly sourced with page numbers, and indeed, one statement is not sourced at all. Consequently, this section conceivably violates WP:Verifiability. auntieruth (talk) 17:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

• Closed I'd like to be completely honest about the reasons for closure, but that would be much more stupid than going up against organized ideologues was in the first place. Now I'm going to get my m-14 and do some long range prairie dog hunting. Tapered (talk) 21:42, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The National Defense Magazine link is coming back dead. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 22:32, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Is the A-Team TV show of greater importance than the 2011 Norway attacks?

How come we have a section devoted to this firearms use on a fictional TV show but no mention of a very famous use in real life? Felsic2 (talk) 18:45, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

If there's no objection I'll restore the weapon's use in some famous mass shootings.[5] Felsic2 (talk) 22:11, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Given the recent edits to the page I would guess that there are objections and you shouldn't restore the material without discussion. Springee (talk) 22:51, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Seeing as this is a discussion page, this is my effort at a discussion. Felsic2 (talk) 23:45, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

The two items aren't connected. If the A-Team mention doesn't meet WP:POPCULT and relevant guidelines, then propose removing it on that basis alone. Trying to piggyback your preferred info onto its inclusion isn't really a good argument. - BilCat (talk) 00:02, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Do you support the inclusion of the A-Team? Do you object to inclusion of real life notable events? Felsic2 (talk) 00:05, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't support the activities of sock puppets, per WP policies, which is why I reverted the diff you linked to above. You haven't given a valid reason for re-including that info, nor have you given a valid reason for removing the A-Team info. - BilCat (talk) 00:21, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

The "valid reason" for including the criminal use material is that it is widely reported information about the subject of the article. It is certainly more noted than the use of the weapon in an American TV show. If there's no one registering an objection I'll restore it. Felsic2 (talk) 18:43, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

The last two items weren't properly sourced, so be sure to include reliable sources for all the claims made. - BilCat (talk) 21:04, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Got it. Felsic2 (talk) 22:26, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Given the number of times this information has been removed from the article please get consensus for the addition before adding it. Springee (talk) 02:06, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Since I started this thread 12 days ago no one's posted any objection to including the Breivik material. The discussion has been open and I haven't rushed to make an edit. Felsic2 (talk) 00:01, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Please see [6]. The exact edits that you want to make have just been reverted 10 times by 5 different editors resulting in IP user 86.153.166.89 being blocked. And, as you are fully aware of this, even commenting on said users talk page,[7] don't pretend that there are no objections and restore the edits. --RAF910 (talk) 00:54, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't see anyone, from either side, discussing those edits. An unproductive edit war shouldn't affect the content of the article. The edits seem to have been reverted because they were made by a banned sock, not because of the material itself. Felsic2 (talk) 01:16, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Well then lets make it official...I object to and oppose the addition of a "criminal use" or body count or what ever you want to call it section, to the Mini-14 page.--RAF910 (talk) 01:23, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

This isn't a vote. You need to provide reason, preferably based on actual Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Please see WP:GUNCRIME, my essay discussing some commonly made arguments. Felsic2 (talk) 01:25, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

At the top of the page there is a discussion that is related to the material in question. I see this in the same light as the Chevy Caprice material you added [[8]]. Yes, the crime is clearly significant but that doesn't mean the gun in question was impacted by it's use in the crime. Springee (talk) 01:30, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

@Springee: The discussion at #Anders Behring Breivik above seems to overwhelming favor inclusion, five to one. Cars anf guns are different. The more comparable article would be SIG MCX. Felsic2 (talk) 14:37, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

It isn't a vote, but the addition having been challenged, you need a consensus before you can reintroduce the content. At this point, I join RAF910 in opposing it, and neither they nor I need to convince you of or even share with you our reasons for doing so. The onus is on you to achieve consensus, not on us to tell you why you don't have it. See WP:CONSENSUS. General Ization ^Talk 01:32, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing me to WP:CONSENSUS. Here's some of what it says:

• Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines....A consensus decision takes into account all of the proper concerns raised.

If you don't raise any "proper concerns" then there's no way of taking them into account.

• In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing policies and guidelines. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever.

How much weight should we give to an argument based on undisclosed arguments? Based on that policy, the answer appears to be "no weight whatsoever".

• The result might be an agreement that does not satisfy anyone completely, but that all recognize as a reasonable solution. Consensus is an ongoing process on Wikipedia; it is often better to accept a less-than-perfect compromise – with the understanding that the page is gradually improving – than to try to fight to implement a particular preferred version immediately

What would be an acceptable compromise? Felsic2 (talk) 14:37, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

There can be No Compromise as there is NO Encyclopedic value to adding a gratuitous body count to this page or any other page on Wikipedia. Perhaps you should read WP:Advocate, WP:Not listening & WP:Winning.--RAF910 (talk) 14:58, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

If your standard is "encyclopedic value" then can you please provide an objective definition? What is "encyclopedic value"? Felsic2 (talk) 15:13, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't have to answer any of your questions. It is enough that I oppose your position. Perhaps you should read WP:Gaming the system as well. --RAF910 (talk) 15:20, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUS: The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever. If you want your objection to carry any weight it must have reasoned arguments. Felsic2 (talk)

This discussion is going nowhere. Enough is enough...If you think that you have consensus, then make the edits and live with the consequences.--RAF910 (talk) 15:32, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

What I haven't seen is anyone provide a reasoned argument against inclusion. I don't know what "consequences" there would be for making an edit. What are you talking about? Felsic2 (talk) 15:40, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Conversely, I haven't yet seen you make a reasoned argument for inclusion of the information that has been challenged (which is what you are expected to do in order to build consensus for a change, not just gripe that no one's given you a good reason to not include it). As a start, you could identify other articles concerning assault weapons that include a digest of criminal incidents in which that particular weapon was used. So far, I haven't found one. Since other editors will be expected to help keep such a list up to date, they have a right to understand why you think it will be valuable that they do so. General Ization ^Talk 17:42, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

As for your argument that "it is widely reported information about the subject of the article", I'd hazard a guess that very few of the reports you were referring to were focused on the model of weapon used in the incidents. If you can find an article that suggests that the Mini 14 is so disproportionately used in such incidents that it is by itself a notable factor in the incidents, and why, then I might agree. Otherwise this information will be primarily of technical interest to arms dealers and aficionados (perhaps along with terrorists who want to emulate Breivik), not to the average reader of the encyclopedia. The average reader will likely find such "scorekeeping" offensive in light of the loss of life in the incidents you propose to list. (I know I do.) General Ization ^Talk 18:02, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Sure, though I'll also note that no one has offered any support for the A-Team mention. Other articles don't really matter, per WP:OSE, right? Even so, there are numerous articles about weapons, explosives, posions, etc, that mention notable assoicated deaths. Here are a few: Polonium, Black Talon, Ice axe, Derringer, Gelignite, Colt Cobra, British Bull Dog revolver, M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle, Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless, Bolo knife, FIM-92 Stinger, Cyanide poisoning, MP_40#Copies_and_post-war_usage, Pressure cooking, Improvised firearm, ANFO (Note these edits and summaries: [9][10][11]), and many more. If those article can mention deadly uses, why not this one?

One of the main content policies, and the only one that discusses what should be in an article, is WP:NPOV. One part, WP:WEIGHT, says that articles should reflect issues discussed in reliable sources, proportionate to their prominence. In other words, if a matter has been discussed in many sources then it shouldn't be excluded.

Breivik's use of this firearm is far more noteworthy than its use in Bermuda or Rhodesia. If we want to remain neutral, we should report each user with the weight given by sources using a consistent, objective standard.

Information on the historical significance of this firearm is of interest to general readers. The material of interest to enthusiasts and professionals, which are not the intended audience, probably includes minute details like weight, length, obscure variants, and so forth.

We include information whether it's pleasant or unpleasant. Wikipedia isn't censored. We have long articles on Breivik and his crime. That means Wikipedia is already "scorekeeping" whether we like it or not. Major crimes are of intense interest to the public and also to scholars. In excluding this material, the article is excluding the views of priminent mainstream sources. Felsic2 (talk) 19:22, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

If no one has a policy-based objection I'll go ahead and post a mention of the Breivik attack. Felsic2 (talk) 11:53, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUS, WP:ONUS and while you are reading please review WP:LISTEN. Springee (talk) 21:27, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Criminal Use revert?

RAF910 please, what is your reason for reverting my edits ? My edits seem in accord with the guidelines and other articles. Would you have better wording?

After I scanned the discussion in this talk page, I did not make the same edits as the IP you mentioned. No "body counts", no repeat of the incident descriptions, which I don't think need to be repeated in this article, used neutral wording, not imflammatory, (to me) added criteria for 2 incidents, following the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Firearms#Criminal_use guidelines, as I understand them, and applied my edits in the similar text pattern, I believe, as I read in these articles; Sig MCX, Bushmaster_XM-15, Carcono

Sorry, I did not clarify the talk page in my edit comment. I was referring to comments in the WP:Guns project talk page, and did read the discussion in this talk page first. Now if I did, I did not mean to irritate you or anyone; and have no agenda, my interest is building an encyclopedia. I think uses, good and bad, belong in this article, like other articles and subjects, in an encyclopedia. I only listed 2 incidents instead of the original 4 incidents since only 2 seemed appropriate to me to be in this article after my research. Thank you,CuriousMind01 (talk) 16:04, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Project page talk page excerpts I was referring to in my edit comment:Draft Example: Notoriety: The Mini 14 was used in the: 1986 FBI Miami shootout, École Polytechnique Massacre, Byron_David_Smith_killings and Utoya mass shooting incidents."CuriousMind01 (talk) 17:48, 31 August 2016 (UTC) That'd be sensible. Felsic2 (talk) 18:35, 5 September 2016 (UTC) I would support a bulleted list of article links for incidents (both positive and negative) with notability sufficient for separate wikipedia articles. See Also might be a more neutral list title option than Notoriety or Popular culture. Thewellman (talk) 19:16, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Just like the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles...Perhaps you should read WP:ONUS. The person adding the information has to convince his follow editors that the information has encyclopedic value, not the other way around. And, I object to adding a body count to this article. If you don't understand my position, then read WP:NOT LISTENING. I given you my answer, if you don't like, then find something else to do with your free time...This time I recommend that you actually read the WP pages. Especially, as those same edit were just reverted 10 times by 5 different editors, resulting in an IP user being blocked and the Mini-14 page being protected.--RAF910 (talk) 16:19, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello User:RAF910, I did not write counts. I do not read the edits to be the same/identical. I will create a request for comments. Thank you,CuriousMind01 (talk) 12:55, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

wikilink +

Pls add wikilink to .300 AAC Blackout in article Ruger_Mini-14#300_Blackout. thx 80.187.99.70 (talk) 09:31, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Good idea. Felsic2 (talk) 22:53, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

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Rfc: Add major incidents to article?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should the Ruger Mini 14 article add this text? CuriousMind01 (talk) 14:42, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

The Ruger Mini 14 was used in these incidents:

• 1986 FBI Miami shootout, resulted in FBI agents and law enforcement agencies switching to use of more powerful guns and body armor for official use in the USA.
• École Polytechnique Massacre, resulted in the Canada Firearms Act, 1995 and faster incident police response procedures in Canada for similar incidents.

I added criteria, the 2 results per: WikiProject_Firearms#Criminal_use. I did not think it was necessary to repeat the incident details within the 2 articles.

The article has a popular culture section, with a use on a TV series. No incidents or other use are in the article.

There are sources in the 2 incident articles, I repeated some sources and added additional sources here:

Comment added: I tried to model my proposed edits based on what found written in these articles. Please suggest if you think the proposed wording could be better written. Thank you CuriousMind01 (talk) 13:42, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

1. Carcano#Kennedy_assassination_rifle, 2. SIG_MCX#Criminal_use, 3. Bushmaster XM-15 Notoriety, Sandy Hook and aftermath, Legality, 4.Pressure_cooking#Use in Terrorism, 5. Ammonium_nitrate#Terrorism

Survey

• Yes Wikipedia includes important incidents about a subject.CuriousMind01 (talk) 14:48, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

• No - Think mentioning the weapon belongs on the incident article, not on the weapon article. Otherwise it seems too open to becoming a WP:SOAPBOX. It also seems to not be justified by due WP:WEIGHT either, since a quick bing of the article title is not visibly showing these incidents anywhere in the first 10 pages -- mostly I'm seeing coverage is on the weapon design, or police and hunter magazine articles about it. And I don't see 'they mention Ateam' as a good argument. (Theres a whole IMDB list but ... that's not a good reason to put them in this article.) Markbassett (talk) 17:56, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
  • If you review the number of times this weapon is mentioned in mainstream newspapers and magazines, I think you'd find that criminal uses are far more prominently reported than the relatively trivial information, such as coatings and dimensions, that make up the bulk of this article. Felsic2 (talk) 19:29, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

• NO...CuriousMind knows full well that the inclusion of this information has been talked to death and rejected every single time. CuriousMind knows full well that every single time that this information has been added to the article it has been reverted. And, yet here we are again. So much for "I did not mean to irritate you or anyone; and have no agenda, my interest is building an encyclopedia." Especially, when it appears that CuriousMind wants to add similar information to not only a dozen different firearms articles, but also several different automotive articles as well. No agenda here, no pattern, nothing to see, move along.--RAF910 (talk) 20:37, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

User:RAF910, Please assume good faith. Your response I think is not appropriate and not collaborative. My proposal is not the same edits. to recap: I added the edits, after seeing discussion on the project page. After your revert, and you stating mistakenly they are the same as a previous edits, I used the RFC as the next discussion step. Thank you,CuriousMind01 (talk) 12:24, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Sir, your edit history speaks for itself. No matter how you change or rearrange the words, the content remains the same. Now it appears that you want to add the same content to mudslides and fires as well. And you still claim there is no agenda here, no pattern, nothing to see, move along. Perhaps you should read Wikipedia:Advocacy. Especially, the Defenses section. Who knows, like a Pokémon Go player, maybe you just got caught or carried away in the moment and you don't realize that you've crossed the line.--RAF910 (talk) 14:38, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Raf910 I consider your statements harassment.CuriousMind01 (talk) 12:06, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes per CuriousMind01. Am surprised that anyone would object to the inclusion of an important impact made by the subject of the article. (editor from automatic "feedback request service" for participation in random requests for comment) --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:07, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
• No per RAF910. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 04:26, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

• No. No major changes in firearm laws occurred due to the criminal use(s). No change in notoriety occurred. Hence, no need to include in this article. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 17:23, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
  • That's incorrect. From École Polytechnique massacre: "The incident led to more stringent gun control laws in Canada. It also introduced changes in the tactical response of police to shootings, changes which were later credited with minimizing casualties at the Dawson College shootings."
  • Further, you're creating a standard that has no basis in Wikiedia policies and guidelines, a standard that no other material in this article could meet. Felsic2 (talk) 19:29, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

The "more stringent gun control laws in Canada" consisted of only requiring more paperwork. No existing guns were confiscated, nor their possession rescinded from owners. Hardly a major change. The tactical response of police to shootings is also not a change in gun laws, either. As I said, no major changes in firearm laws occurred due to the criminal use(s). Besides, police change their tactical responses regularly, as better ways of operation are found, or simply for lessening the predictability of their responses to criminal acts. Lets keep on topic, with regards to gun laws. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 17:09, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Where do you get the need for a "major change" to have been made in order to mention something in a Wikipedia article? That's not the standard we use for anything else in this article. This material is well-supported by numerous reliable sources. NPOV says we should include it on a WEIGHT basis. Felsic2 (talk) 00:15, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

• No/yes. No to the content as written and in general I would oppose such content as we don't have reliable sources about the subject of this article making the link for us and thus establishing weight for inclusion. However, in this case we have a reliable source, American Rifleman, writing about the rifle vs about the FBI shooting event that mentions the event and making the connection. Thus a RS article about the subject of this article felt it was worth mentioning. I'm not saying how the FBI shooting should be included but I feel there is sufficient weight in that case. I have not seen weight for the others. Springee (talk) 02:27, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

• No, per User:RAF910. Do we include information about the 2010 Times Square car bombing attempt on the Nissan Pathfinder article? If the Ruger had a unique quality or attribute that contributed to the events in question then it might be grounds for inclusion. But, as the Times Square incident most likely would have been carried out with a different vehicle if the Pathfinder didn't exist, so would these incidents if the Ruger didn't exist so we do run the risk of soapboxing and undue weight. --Guiletheme (talk) 06:37, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

If the Nissan Pathfinder has at the nexus of a cultural and political debate on restricting access to that model of car like the Ruger Mini-14 was in Canada post-École Polytechnique, then yes it would be included. Gun control debates are real societal issues that get plenty of coverage from reliable sources, and that coverage of the political debate, which sometimes focuses on specific models, does convey encyclopedic significance and are not just mere trivia. For example, as comparison the Bushmaster XM-15 article mentions the Beltway and Sandy Hook attacks. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 22:44, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, at least in the case of École Polytechnique, which had a profound influence on the debate around Canadian gun laws and acquired notoriety like the Bushmaster XM-15 after the Beltway sniper attacks and Sandy Hook, both of which are mentioned in that article. This notoriety provides encyclopedic relevance and is part of the history of the weapon. This article by Macleans directly compares the two guns and details the politcal and legislative debate around the Ruger Mini-14 [12]. Many other articles directly reference the gun in the context of the attack and debates on gun control nearly 30 years later [13], [14], [15], [16], [17]. This book on Canadian spree killings also references the Ruger Mini-14 five times in the three pages of coverage it devotes to the incident [18], [19]. These sources show that the argument that "there was no change in notoriety" to be false.

As for claims that no changes in Firearm Laws occurred, I would invite editors to read the second half of this article, which details how the Ecole Polytechnique massacre changed Canadian gun laws. [20]. The fallout of the legislation reached the Supreme Court last year, 26 years after the massacre. [21] ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 22:44, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes. According to WP:NPOV, all significant viewpoints should be included. Also, the weight they're given in an article should be proportional to the number and prominence of the published sources. Information about the use of this weapon in widely reported crimes is much more significant material than the various special editions, with their resepctive weights and measures. The latter is of interest only to collectors while the use of the weapons in real life is of interest to the general public. If this material is excluded than everything of less significance should be deleted as well. Felsic2 (talk) 19:29, 12 October 2016 (UTC) I added notifications to Talk:1986 FBI Miami shootout and Talk:École Polytechnique massacre. Felsic2 (talk) 20:09, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes per Patar knight and Felsic2, who make complete arguments I cannot really improve upon. If WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT are satisfied, there's no reason to not cover reported impact from a subject, no matter what that subject is. The idea that any particular weapon or tool would be excluded from this long-held Wikipedia approach seems preposterous. (editor from automatic "feedback request service" for participation in random requests for comment) Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 12:46, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes enough weight has been given by editors in this discussion to show that it has some significance to notoriety, and it is well sourced. StarHOG (talk) 14:09, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

• Yes this is a comprehensive article (nice job everyone). There is a WP:WEIGHT problem with extensive discussion of the gun specs and appearances on TV programs and movies and nothing about well-known and significant real-life incidents involving the gun. (uninvolved editor summoned by feedback service) ~Kvng (talk) 13:41, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

added section CuriousMind01 (talk) 14:46, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

1.Miguel Escopeta re: "No major changes in firearm laws occurred", The Canada Firearms Act, 1995 was enacted. You seem knowledgeable in these subjects. What does "major" mean here? Thank you,CuriousMind01 (talk) 13:53, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Unlike in Australia, where firearms had to be turned in after their shooting, which was a major change, existing owners in Canada were permitted to keep their firearms, provided they filled out paperwork. A different outcome altogether. It was not considered a major change in terms of continued possession. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 17:28, 4 October 2016 (UTC) User:Miguel Escopea, Thank you for your response.CuriousMind01 (talk) 13:42, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Miguel Escopea "major' is subjective, I think the Canada Firearms Act is major per the sources provided and Patar Knights sources, and per the guideline("major" is not stated)"legislation being passed as a result of the gun's usage" applies. Thank you,CuriousMind01 (talk) 12:22, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

@Miguel Escopeta: "No major changes in firearm laws occurred" is not a standard based on any Wikipedia policies or guidelines. If it were, this article would be much, much shorter. 19:31, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

It actually is a standard based on the WP:Firearms guideline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Firearms#Criminal_use that has stood the test of time for many years now. The goal of that guideline is to avoid having firearm articles becoming littered with every "good use" and "bad use" mentions of day to day crime. "On January 1st, 20XX, Joe Schmo successfully used a BRRP MK II to defend himself in his garage." That guideline also states that specific firearms that become widely notorious because of their usages, and result in major changes in gun laws, should include mention of the usages in the firearm article. For example, the Carcano rifle used in the JFK assassination, the pistol used in the Columbine shooting, etc., that resulted in major changes in both gun laws and in public perceptions. The guideline has long been used on Wikipedia. It is also meant to keep firearms articles from being a major magnet for attracting POV warriers, such as yourself. Seems very reasonable to me. (unlike you, I actually sign my comments) Miguel Escopeta (talk) 17:18, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Please stop making personal attacks, such as calling me a "POV warrior".

Wikipedia:WikiProject_Firearms#Criminal_use is not a guideline. It is an advice page. WP:ADVICEPAGE. Further, it does not say that the standard is a "major change". It says, "For instance, legislation being passed as a result of the gun's usage..." There has been legislation changed as a result of this criminal use. If you actually followed that advice, you'd support inclusion. Felsic2 (talk) 00:11, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

I submitted a request for closure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure#Request_for_Administrator_to_Close_RfC_Talk:Ruger_Mini-14.23Rfc:_Add_major_incidents_to_article The Legobot removed the RFC template CuriousMind01 (talk) 11:28, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recent edit

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "TOC limit; rm nn variants from infobox; c/e; rm excessive external links -- official site is sufficient; rm ext links from body. Please let me know if there are any concerns." --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:21, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Hidden Text

I previously removed hidden text from the Criminal Use section:

"READ FIRST: Entries in this section must abide by the criteria in WP:Firearms#Criminal_use."

This is counter to Wikipedia policies and practice. There is no such requirement to follow the recommendations at WP:GUNS, and the outcome of the 2016 RFC was to include details of shootings in the Criminal Use section for this article.

The hidden text was recently added to the article again. Please discuss here. –dlthewave ☎ 23:15, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

• Remove: Such a note is not helpful nor needed, as it points to the project essay, which does not over-ride the project-wide policies and guidelines. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:02, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
• Keep: The project guide is helpful and founded in proper policies and not inconsistent with WP's overall goals. It is meant as a first line to prevent recurrent problems such as this. The current entries are both inline with that project guideline AND WP's policies. I agree with Fnlayson's restoration of the link. Those that want to discuss or take exception to the guide should do this at a centralized location such as WT:Firearms to involve editors that were involved in that consensus to have the guide. No one here has shown what is supposedly wrong with the guidelines.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 12:55, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The relevant factors would be Wiki policies/guidelines and consensus on this article's talk page. It might be appropriate to inform editors of existing consensus, but consensus can change and nobody should be discouraged from boldly contributing or reopening the discussion as they see fit. I looked over the discussion which you linked and I don't see anything about the proposal that we should be trying to prevent. The edit was challenged, discussed and withdrawn because the editor considered it to be a lost cause. These discussions sometimes feel tedious or repetitive but they are part of the collaborative editing process. This is affirmed by a recent closign statement at Arbcom. –dlthewave ☎ 18:55, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The consensus further up the page is about adding a couple of entries. It has nothing to do with stating that entries should (or should not) be inline with the guideline. The current entries and the guideline are aligned with each other at the present so you are trying to make an argument that is flawed from the onset. That consensus has nothing to do with this proposal although you seem to think that it does. Nothing restricts entries from being made. The underlying policy that shaped the guideline is WP:DUE. What entry did you or someone else try to make that fell short of the guideline which has lead to this challenge? Why is that comment considered an obstacle?

What you missed in what I linked is that entries shouldn't become a content fork of those subjects which they were prone to do. Adding a memorial plaque was trying to grow an entry in that direction.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 12:58, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

• Keep: The note points to the relevant project (WP:Firearms) guidelines. The wording can be adjusted to clarify if needed. -Fnlayson (talk) 14:29, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
• Remove - Wikiprojects don't dictate content policy and editors are not required to get approval at a central location where participants have strong points of view about a controversial subject. The hidden comment conveys a false sense of authority which would tend to have a chilling effect on editing.- MrX 🖋 13:26, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
• I removed the hidded text. Whatever the project guideline, it's clearly contrary to the RfC that's listed above: permalink. Please let me know of any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:31, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Restored. There is no consensus to remove and this is an ongoing discussion. Please be patient. And no, the consensus above was about adding entries and they have been added.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:10, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

@Berean Hunter: You may be misreading the WP:GUNS#Criminal use which allows only a "See also" link. So the current section Ruger_Mini-14#Criminal_use is not in "compliance" with this essay. So it does not make much sense to keep the hidden text, does it? K.e.coffman (talk) 03:39, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I see where you are coming from. The title of that section is criminal use instead of see also but the entries have been stable with that hidden text in place. Folks could have added to the section and as long as it was cited and like the other entries, I would have called those good and not a reason to remove them. My concern here has been preventing content forks and imo that is why the guideline was developed. I think something was lost in the wording somewhere...I remember making this comment on the proposal and didn't see these entries as problematic. I would still suggest waiting for a consensus which is best for BRD. That comment has been there for quite a while and won't matter much. I think what needs to happen is that guideline be revisited but that is outside the scope of this discussion.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 04:24, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Folks could have added to the section and as long as it was cited and like the other entries, I would have called those good and not a reason to remove them. I'm having trouble imagining how an editor would interpret the hidden text this way. –dlthewave ☎ 12:21, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

• This clearly falls under Inappropriate uses for hidden text: "When it is a mere local consensus that a certain edit should not be performed, the hidden text should be worded more softly to suggest to the editor to consult the talk page (or archive page if appropriate) for the current consensus prior to making the edit. Since consensus can change, it is inappropriate to use hidden text to try to prohibit making a certain edit merely because it would conflict with an existing consensus." –dlthewave ☎ 15:07, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
• Remove as OP –dlthewave ☎ 15:19, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

• Keep: -72bikers (talk) 18:23, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

• A recent ArbCom enforcement action, as well as concensus at VPP, have confirmed that these decisions are to be made on a case-by-case basis and WikiProject guidelines are suggestions, not mandates. I've removed the hidden text accordingly. –dlthewave ☎ 22:21, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Primary souces

The page contains a number of citations to ruger.com. I tagged the article accordingly; please let me know if there are any concerns. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:42, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Preserving here by providing this link. My rationale was: "reduce uncited wp:promo and / or original research; rm NRA model as cited only to manufacturer's website". --K.e.coffman (talk) 19:53, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Can someone remove this person as someone who used this weapon?

This article states that a different weapon was used, but I do not know how to edit wikipedia to satisfy its criteria. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_David_Smith_killings#Incident — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.196.4.46 (talk) 04:22, 10 June 2020 (UTC) Not sure what you are asking. The linked article seems to support the use of a mini-14. Springee (talk) 23:20, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

In the media

Would it be allright to add a "In the media" section in this article? The Ruger Mini-14 was heavily featured in the 80's series THE A-TEAM! --Exodianecross (talk) 02:16, 22 January 2021 (UTC)