Talk:Massacre of Lviv professors

Edit war

Faustian please do not provoke an edit war by restoring this exceptional claim that the professors were murdered because they wre Soviet collaborators. Please present SOURCES (SOURCES with an “s” at the end) that confirm the claim. If this is true it should not be difficult to find the sources. So far you FAILED to provide any sources other that ONE questionable PDF article in Ukrainian language nobody can even read. Thanks.--Jacurek (talk) 15:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry that you have chosen to remove information taken from a relaible source.Faustian (talk) 16:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Per the latest comment by an independent reviewer on the reliable sources noticeboard here: In reply to Faustian from above, if the material isn't contained in the English language Marples, then there is no problem with sourcing it from the equally scholarly and reliable Patrylyak. Fifelfoo (talk) 16:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I am restoring the text. I will not edit war - if someone chooses to censor it again I will have no choice but to take it up elsewhere. This is at least the second warning.Faustian (talk) 16:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

We are still in the process of building up a census, your constant declarations that you are right and/or that you will do this or that are boring. Why don't you channel all that energy in trying to find some sources for your extraordinary claims? J.kunikowski (talk) 17:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing extraordinary about the fact that Patrilyak in his book published by the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences stated that "....". This is what the article says. It says "According to Patrilyak..." As we see, Patrilyak has been deemed to be a reliable source whose works are worthy of attention and of inclusion. I'm trying to compromise as much as possible, without censoring information. I am not saying that those professors did cooperate, I including in the article the fact that Patrilyak said they did. I also included the statement from a Polish newspaper that they did not. As I said, I'm trying to be as cooperative as possible here but a line I will not cross is to censor information from reliable sources - to keep it off wikipedia. Faustian (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing extraordinary about the fact

Then you will have no problem finding source that contain this information and doesn't speak about "anti-colonial struggle" of OUN or understandable "hatred of Jews".--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Faustian, like I said before, the question then becomes one of due weight. If you have 1000 Polish+English+Russian/Soviet historians not detected any "active cooperation" then it's not clear why should the article mention 1 source you have found. J.kunikowski (talk) 18:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

---

Not sure what to do.. but I think there is no other choice that to report Faustian for extreme POV pushing and edit war. I hate to do that but what else can be done? Pleads for sources that would back up that ground breaking totally unheard of before claim are met with personal attacks and edit war..I think we tried everything on this talk page. Any ideas?--Jacurek (talk) 17:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunetely this seems the only option since Faustian insists on branding those victims as "Soviet cooperators" desptie being proven otherwise by sourced information and introducting biased sourced describing the Nazi collaborationists OUN as engaging in "anti-colonial struggle".

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:29, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Nothing "biaased" about claiming that the OUN was enagegd in an anticolonial struggle and that their collaboration with the Nazis was part of that struggle. I have books by Timothy Snyder published by Yale saying that, too. Feel free to try to report me for refusing to allow you to censor information that has been deemed reliable and worthy of onclusion by nuetral editors on the reliable sources noticeboard.Faustian (talk) 17:48, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Nothing "biaased" about claiming that the OUN was enagegd in an anticolonial struggle Wait wait, how did the murder of Jews constitute "anti-colonial struggle"-Jews were neither colonists nor Ukraine was their colony."and worthy of onclusion" nobody wrote that Faustian. In fact editors wrote that biased source shouldn't be used.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:53, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

You didn't read: here: In reply to Faustian from above, if the material isn't contained in the English language Marples, then there is no problem with sourcing it from the equally scholarly and reliable Patrylyak. Fifelfoo (talk) 16:26, 25 October 2010 (UTC) And no, Patrilyak did not claim that the murder of Jews was a part of the anticolonial struggle (though I suppose they could be seen as working for the colonizers). He wrote that they were engaged in such a struggle and also wrote that they killed Jews. You put the two together yourself.

Faustian please, provide a citation from Snyder then. I read some of his books and I don't recall such conclusions. J.kunikowski (talk) 17:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

You don't recall him writing that the OUN/UPA were fighting for independence or that the Ukrainians saw the Poles as colonizers?Faustian (talk) 18:02, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

How was murdering Jews or children "fight for independence"?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Faustian, one thing is how the Ukrainians saw the Poles and completely another what kind of struggle were OUN/UPA involved it. Above you claimed the following: Nothing "biased" about claiming that the OUN was enagegd in an anticolonial struggle and that their collaboration with the Nazis was part of that struggle. I don't remember Snyder writing anywhere that collaboration with the Nazis was part of the struggle. J.kunikowski (talk) 18:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

So he didn't write about them joining the police and helping the Nazis kill 200,000 Jews, then using the skills they learned to murder Poles? I remember him writing that, because I used his book to write this chapter:[1].Faustian (talk) 18:13, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

You are using a text you yourself wrote to claim something is true? Really Faustian, that is not how Wikipedia works.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

He did write that, but you were claiming something different above, specifically he did not write about anti-colonial struggle as far as I recall. J.kunikowski (talk) 18:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Fringe theories

I shortened the fringe theory about Nazi collaborationists OUN per WP:Fringe--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:35, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Is there any other board that deals with the exceptional claims or extreme material being introduced on Wikipiedia?--Jacurek (talk) 17:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so, things like Holocaust denial or glorification of Naiz collaboration are usually removed, although I have seen subtle introduction of such claims that can't be easy spotted by people without indepth knowledge.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Kind of wierd to describe as a "fringe belief" a statement published by the Academy of Sciences of the country where the events took place, written by a historian from that country's National University. Good luck with that approach. And try not to smear the author not other editors as people "glorifying" Nazi collaboration. That isn't very nice.Faustian (talk) 18:07, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Professors all over the world have fringe theories. If its not a fringe theory you won't have any problems presenting more sources dealing precisely with the murder(rather than just describing views of Nazi collaboration movement) presenting this information.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I propose legacy section

I propose legacy section where we can add the post-war efforts to remember the victims and Ukrainian reactions to those efforts.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

No doubt with a picture gallery of every example of vandalism by hooligans or provocateurs?Faustian (talk) 18:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

What provocateurs? What are you writing about?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Something about a new monument could be added: [2] [3] - a common initiative of Lviv and Wroclaw mayors--Hedviberit (talk) 21:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Note

Please note that one of significant contributors to this talk page, User:J.kunikowski, has been confirmed by CU evidence as a topic-ban evading sockpuppet of User:Loosmark and both accounts have been indef-blocked. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Loosmark/Archive and WP:AN#Ban discussion: Loosmark and sockpuppeting for details. Nsk92 (talk) 07:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Wulka hills

Can somebody find a ref for this location, and more about it? I am not finding much, there was a Wulka street, later renameed to Boy-Zelenski street... but "Wulka hills" are drawing a blank, in English and Polish. Some other Polish sources talk of "Wzgórza Wuleckie" ("Wuleckie hills") but that term is not used in English. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Every Ukrainian student they teached at the time is responsible for there death?

The current article states "The lists (of people who should be arrested by the Nazi's) were prepared by their Ukrainian students associated with OUN". The article is unclear how many students we are talking about. Unfortunately I can not read the references... I think it should be mentioned how big this group was, to avoid making it look that most of there Ukrainian students where killers. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 14:00, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Mmm, the source(s) is more vague than the text makes it appear.

The first source is here. It says:

"Wielu Polaków stawiało pytanie, skąd Niemcy mieli listę zgładzonych profesorów. Nie jest to istotne dla całej sprawy, gdyż można było nazwiska z adresem uzyskać choćby z przedwojennej książki telefonicznej. Można jednak wierzyć Walterowi Kutschmanowi, który oświadczył doc. Lanckorońskiej, że listę dostarczyli gestapo Ukraińcy. Całe szczęście, że na liście umieszczono tylko 25 profesorów. Przecież sam Uniwersytet posiadał 158 docentów i profesorów, a dochodzi do tego olbrzymia Politechnika, Akademia Medycyny Weterynaryjnej i Akademia Handlu Zagranicznego.

Sądząc z tego, że gestapo owej lipcowej nocy poszukiwało zmarłych w czasie wojny: okulistę prof. Adama Bednarskiego i dermatologa prof. Romana Leszczyńskiego33, należy przypuszczać, że lista powstała jeszcze w Krakowie. Wskutek odcięcia granicą od Lwowa w Krakowie nie wiedziano, kto w tym czasie zmarł. Najbardziej prawdopodobne wydaje się, że krakowskie gestapo przed wybuchem wojny niemiecko-radziecki ej zażądało od Ukraińców, studentów lub absolwentów wyższych uczelni lwowskich, podania nazwisk i adresów znanych im profesorów. Stąd taka względnie krótka, na szczęście, lista. "

Translation:

"A lot of Poles asked the question, where the Germans obtained the list of the killed professors. The issue is not actually relevant overall, since it was possible to obtain the names and addresses even from pre-war telephone books. However, it is believable that as Walter Kutschman told doc. Lanckoronska, that the list was provided to the gestapo by the Ukrainians. It was fortunate that only 25 professors were mentioned there. The University itself had 158 docents and professors, plus an additional large number at the Politechnic, The Academy of Veterinary Medicine and the Academy of Foreign Trade.

Based on the fact that on that July night the gestapo was also searching for people who had already died during the war: (okulista) prof. Adam Bednarski and dermatologist prof. Roman Leszczynski, it's probable that the list originated back in Krakow. As a consequence of the new border which seperated Lwow from Krakow, they didn't know who had died in the meantime. The most likely scenario is that the Krakow gestapo, before the outbreak of the Nazi-Soviet war (June 1941 - VM) demanded from the Ukrainians, students or the alumni of the higher educational institutions of Lwow, that they provide them with the names and addresses of professors they knew about. As a result the list was, fortunately, relatively short"

So the part about the students is a bit speculative (though this kind of speculation is done in history all the time) and it seems like it was students from Krakow not Lwow who made the list.

The second source, the IPN one, is not available. It MIGHT be the same thing as this [4] but that only mentions that the Rzeszow IPN is seeking still living witnesses or individuals knowledgeable about the events. Nothing about students there. On the other hand it is possible that the link is actually to an IPN report which was a follow up to the file I'm linking. I don't know.

I recall that there was some discussion on this topic previously, in relation to the supposed or alleged pro-Soviet sympathies of some of the professors murdered. I seem to recall there was a source at one point which basically pointed out that the professors placed on the list were basically the ones who had fought in the Battle of Lwów (1918) on the Polish side. Maybe there was something about these students there as well. I'll have to go back and check the talk archives as well as older versions of the article. Volunteer Marek  14:51, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the second source a bit more carefully, it does seem like it's a ref to a follow or final report on the investigation, whereas the one I found is just an announcement. However, I cannot find a copy of this report online. Volunteer Marek  14:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

This is somewhat straying from the topic but it's sort of interesting - according to this IPN report [5], the person who made the mention to Lanckoronska about the executions (and presumably the origins of the list) was Hans Kruger (pl wiki). According to pl wiki Waltera Kutschmann was the person who sent a report to Berlin which mention that Kruger had been telling people about his participation in the massacre. Anyway, this IPN dokument also says that they are reviewing further German documents. Volunteer Marek  15:03, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I looked at the Polish wiki version of the article and there there is a little bit more about this. This source [6] states:

"Akcję przeprowadzono bardzo sprawnie według wcześniej ustalonej listy sporządzonej prawdopodobnie w Krakowie przez studentów ukraińskich 85"

"The Action (the arrest of the professors) was carried out very skillfully based on earlier prepared list, compiled most likely in Krakow by Ukrainian students"

The footnote says:

"W historiografii często pisze się, że listy profesorów wg których hitlerowcy przeprowadzili aresztowania, a następnie egzekucję sporządzili na początku 1941 r. ukraińscy studenci z organizacji nacjonalistycznych, którzy znajdowali się w Krakowie. Wersja ta jest bardzo prawdopodobna, jednakże nie znaczy to, że byli oni winni mordu, gdyż nikt nie spodziewał się, że we Lwowie sprawa przybierze taki obrót (zob. W. Bonusiak: Kto zabił profesorów lwowskich? Rzeszów 1989). "

"In the historiography it is often written that the list of professors who were arrested by the Nazis, and then executed, was created at the beginning of 1941 by Ukrainian students from nationalist organizations, who were in krakow. This version is very probable, although this does not mean that they (the students) were guilty of these murders, since no one expected at the time that this (the murder) is what is going to happen in Lwow".

Then it cites another work. The Polish wiki article adds however that in other locals (Krzemieniec, Stanislawow) where the murders of Polish intelligentsia took place, these were also based on lists prepared by "Ukrainian nationalists". This second claim is cited to Motyka, "Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji Wisła", who's reliable and generally unbiased on the subject matter (though someone should check to make sure that this is indeed in the source). Volunteer Marek  15:16, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Victim list

Is the list of victims really necessary here? Per WP:MEMORIAL, it should probably be removed, especially because the vast majority of those links are red. Perhaps it can be replaced with a paragraph that includes some of the people that we do have articles on. —howcheng {chat} 17:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

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Victim-blaming and apologist garbage

Earlier I removed two sentences, one consisting of a victim-blaming denial with absolutely no credibility (that dozens of University professors had no involvement in politics, as if that mattered to the Nazis' goal of killing all Polish elites) and another that Ukrainians were not to blame because the Poles deserved death for cooperating with the Soviets (which is both unprovable and again does not matter since it was the Nazi goal to eliminate all elites to forestall any resistance). The user who reverted my edits also reverted my adjustment to the coordinates at the same time, suggesting that they did their revert without enough care. Abductive (reasoning) 19:05, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

WP:IDONTLIKEIT.--Lute88 (talk) 15:26, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE, get your filth out. Abductive (reasoning) 02:55, 13 September 2018 (UTC)