Talk:Macedonia (ancient kingdom)

Periphery of Classical Greece

The opening seems to have aged badly and I understand it is contentious. However, Macedon, as a Greek speaking state, more specifically, a Greek religious and Greek cultural state in classical Greece throughout the classical period - whose rulers attended the Olympics throughout the entirity of the classical period - is 'periphery' really the correct word? Surely Thrace was on the periphery of Classical Greece, not Macedon? Surely on the periphery of the archaic Greece can be argued however not during the classical period (500-336 BC). Reaper7 (talk) 11:01, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Some ancient Greek authors considered Macedonians to be barbarians. The story related to the Olympics is significant: the Macedonian kings were only allowed to compete after a debate took place on whether they were Greeks, which shows it was really not that obvious; Alexander I developed on his Heraclid ancestry and was therefore allowed to participate, but it also means that common Macedonians could not compete in the 5th century. See here.

The full quote in the lede is also "periphery of Archaic and Classical Greece", which is true as it only started to influence Greek affairs from the 350s BC. T8612 (talk) 11:37, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

There was Ancient Macedonians who participated to the Olympics without being Kings. Ancient Macedonians Olympic athletes were also the Apollodorus, Bilistiche, Antigonos of Callas.

The word barbarian has also been a derogatory slur in addition to describing a foreigner.

Many Greek tribes such as the Thessalians and the Epirotes were also characteristically barbaric. The two greatest Greek historians Stabrosand Herodotus called the Ancient Macedonians Greeks.

Ancient Macedonia has always had a role in Ancient Greek mythology with Mount Olympus as a classic example. Ypoferomai (talk) 18:24, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Alexander the Great was not the only Ancient Macedonian to participate in the Olympic Games.

This proves that the ancient Macedonians in Antiquity were considered Greeks. Alexander the Great had to prove his Greek origin as every athlete had to at that time. And he did. This does not negate the Greekness of Macedonia. Ypoferomai (talk) 18:06, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Ancestry of Macedonia

According to the Prespa agreement, Ancient Macedonia was an Ancient Greek Kingdom.

This is also confirmed by all modern historians. The ancient Macedonians, like the Thessalians and the Boeotians, were of Aeolian origin, which was one of the 4 Greek races. It is a lie that the Ancient Macedonians did not participate in the Olympic Games. Many Ancient Macedonians participated such as Apollodorus (runner), Bilistiche, Archon. There were indeed Ancient Greeks who occasionally called them Barbarians, as they also did for the Thessalians and Epirotians. The word barbarian was often used in a pejorative way besides describing a foreigner. Despite this, the two greatest ancient Greek historians, Stabro and Herodotus, unquestionably called them Greeks.

Ypoferomai (talk) 18:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 9 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There was strong consensus against the move as proposed. From the discussion, it seems that Macedon or Kingdom of Macedon might be able to achieve consensus on a future RM, but for now, it is time to close this one as it has already been relisted once. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 16:49, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

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Macedonia (ancient kingdom) → Kingdom of Macedonia – Per WP:NCDAB, there's every reason for this page to be at the naturally disambiguated title of "Kingdom of Macedonia" – a title for which this page is the unambiguous primary topic (it redirects here) – and very little reason for it to have a parenthetically disambiguated title given that the naturally disamiguated title exists. There was a previous RM on this, but it appears to have overlooked both the preference towards natural disamiguatiom at WP:NCDAB and modern usage patterns, with the Wikinav chart of the undisambiguated base term showing the vast gulf between traffic to North Macedonia versus any other "Macedonia". It is the same in page views. The proposed term is also abundant in scholarship. Given all of this context, and the reality that the current title is in any case tantamount to "Macedonia (kingdom of)", we may as well just flip the title and remove the brackets. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans 04:55, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support move. This is natural disambiguation, and makes a lot of sense. None of the other Macedonia articles should be moved per WP:MOSMAC. O.N.R. ^(talk) 22:14, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose No evidence that Macedonia was called "Kingdom of Macedonia" at the time (indeed, it would be rather exceptional in ancient Greek) and little that modern-day historians commonly call ancient Macedonia "Kingdom of Macedonia" (OP's Google search mostly has lower-case "kingdom", and a Google hit only shows that a term can be found once in a work, not that it's a normal term there or overall). Some sometimes use "Macedon" for the domain; formal names like Kingdom of Sicily, Kingdom of Italy or Kingdom of Greece come later. NebY (talk) 23:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

  We're not talking about what it was called in ancient Greek; we're talking about useful frames of reference in modern English, and the topic is already labelled as "(ancient kingdom)", so if you object to "kingdom", you should also object to the current title. Wikipedia titles are also in sentence case, so you can consider the proposed title to be "kingdom of Macedonia" (lower case) if you like, but it makes no meaningful or substantive difference. However, "Macedon" also redirects here, so if you'd like to rally around that, sure, we could also move it there – I'd support that also: that's another naturally disambiguated option. So that's two naturally disambiguated options currently being ignored in favour of a parenthetical title. Iskandar323 (talk) 00:00, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  "Macedonian kingdom" is yet another, functional, this-time-descriptive option that also finds usage in scholarship. This option basically just straight up eliminates the word "ancient" (which is redundant) and brackets. Iskandar323 (talk) 00:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose If I'm not mistaken, I remember seeing the exact same proposal some time long ago (?) and apparently the agreement was to keep it as it is. Ancient sources called this polity Makedonia, which is latinized as Macedonia and anglicized as Macedon. 'Kingdom of Macedonia' or 'Macedonian kingdom' are used in modern sources as historiographical terms; don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them; it's just that I don't see a meaningful improvement in this change. On the contrary, the word ancient is far from redundant and its omission takes away significant context. As mentioned, there is today a modern country named 'North Macedonia', formerly referred to as 'Macedonia' (still unofficially in use) and the 'Republic of Macedonia, which makes the unambiguous distinction even more necessary. Lastly, the numerous name variations that are equally used in modern scholarship to refer to the kingdom of Macedon (as it is evident above) indicate that there is not a single standard name that is exclusively used for this polity. Compare how the name 'Delian League', despite being a 100% historiograhical term, is nearly exclusively used in modern scholarship, leaving us no room for questioning whether we should chose it as a title or not. This is clearly not the case with Macedon which is referred to in many ways, leaving it up to us to chose which name variation exactly is best fitting in the encyclopedia. Piccco (talk) 12:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  I provided the link to the last discussion. It wasn't particularly well attended. Q: If you believe Macedon is the anglicised form, why aren't you supporting that as the title instead? Iskandar323 (talk) 16:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, I just found the last RM after a wrote the response. Some major editors in ancient Greece-related articles responded, so I'd say the consensus appears pretty solid. 'Macedon' is indeed an anglicised form, but not the most commonly used one, though still somewhat prominent. The latinized term 'Macedonia' has infiltrated the English language and is today essentially an English word too.

  I will also respond here to the question you asked to User:Ssilvers below: the word 'ancient' here is certainly not reduntand, but essential to make a clear distinction. I'm sure, Iskandar, that your suggestion is in good-faith, because you are an editor that I know and respect. However, the term 'Macedonia' and its derivatives, like the adjective 'Macedonian', are extremely ambiguous words, referring to polities, regions, and groups that can be completely unrelated to each other (for more, see the disambiguation pages above). The title 'Macedonia (ancient kingdom)' makes sense as part of a group of articles that refer to Macedonia throughout history, such as: Macedonia (Roman province), Macedonia (theme), Macedonia (Greece), also Macedonia (region). Piccco (talk) 20:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The word ancient is very helpful to searchers. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

  Someone needs to explain this. There's only one kingdom, so surely ancient is entirely redundant? Iskandar323 (talk) 16:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. if anything, the name should either stay this or Ancient Macedonia. It should have redirect page with that name tho. Setxkbmap (talk) 09:56, 13 September 2024 (UTC)^{(WP:SOCKSTRIKE — DaxServer (t·m·e·c) 20:30, 16 September 2024 (UTC))}

  As a term, 'Ancient Macedonia' is still broad, because it includes both 'Macedonia (ancient kingdom)' and 'Macedonia (Roman province)'. I agree with the redirect. Piccco (talk) 15:28, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: per the same reasoning presented by User:NebY and User:Piccco. Not only is the current title just fine, it is also a bit clearer than just "Kingdom of Macedonia," with the emphasis on it being a state during classical antiquity. :Pericles of Athens^Talk 15:35, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

  Surely by this logic, any ancient polity without the qualifier "ancient" is inherently confusing because it doesn't specify ancientness. Seleucid Empire? Ptolemaic kingdom? When were they? Who knows?! It doesn't say ancient, so ... Also, "ancient" doesn't actually specify "classical antiquity" at all. There are also iron age kingdoms etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Military history/Roman and Byzantine military history task force, WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, WikiProject Greece, WikiProject Iran, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Former countries, WikiProject European history, and WikiProject Ancient Near East have been notified of this discussion. Reading Beans 04:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting for more participations. Best, Reading Beans 04:55, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per NeBY. Agree with Pericles that it's also clearer. The emphasis on kingdom for this period is misplaced. Ifly6 (talk) 12:55, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: The proposal to rename the page to "Kingdom of Macedonia" seems to simplify the term unnecessarily, potentially leading to further confusion rather than clarification. The term "Macedonia" in any form carries significant ambiguity due to its reference to modern states, geographical regions, and ethnic groups. Retaining "ancient kingdom" in the title serves as a necessary specifier that clearly distinguishes the historical entity from contemporary political and regional associations. Moreover, the historical entity we are discussing was referred to both as Macedon and Macedonia in ancient sources. The term "Macedon" is frequently used in academic contexts to refer specifically to the kingdom in the classical and Hellenistic periods, while "Macedonia" can also imply broader geographical and historical contexts. Using "Macedonia (ancient kingdom)" as a title provides a clear, concise frame of reference that aligns with scholarly practice and public understanding. If we were to add clarity perhaps Kingdom of Macedon but certainly not Kingdom of Macedonia' InfoWanderer (talk) 03:55, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.