Talk:List of Doctor Who Christmas and New Year's specials

The Feast of Steven?

Should "The Feast of Steven", which aired on 25 December 1965, be included in this category? The episode (which is sadly one of the 97 missing from the BBC Archive) aired as a sort of "cutaway" episode from "The Daleks' Masterplan" and is widely considered amongst fans to be the first Christmas special. Thoughts? 185.48.78.138 (talk) 20:40, 17 October 2015 (UTC) JF

No, as it was not specifically a Christmas special, it simply aired on Christmas. Alex|The|Whovian 21:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Valid point. I still don't think of it as part of DMP, but I do see your point. 185.48.78.138 (talk) 22:12, 17 October 2015 (UTC)JF

It is, however, still noted in the lead of the article, given its airdate. Alex|The|Whovian 22:14, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

The End of Time

Surely only Part One is a Christmas special as Part Two aired on New Year's Day. 5.65.172.72 (talk) 14:55, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

It is one story, so they are tied together. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 20:58, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

But they are separate episodes, it doesn't matter that they are one story. 90.206.170.137 (talk) 17:48, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, part 1 is a Christmas special and part 2 is a New Year's special, but it's one story and we don't need to be pedantic about it and only list part 1 when we only have one article for both episodes. DonQuixote (talk) 17:55, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

It isn't pedantic it is correct, Part Two is a New Year Special and therefore has no place on the List of Christmas specials. 90.206.170.137 (talk) 18:12, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Er...it's pedantic because it is correct. That's the basis of pedantic. Pedantic means that you're taking it too far (pedantry: slavish attention to details--dictonary.com). DonQuixote (talk) 18:41, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Further supporting the above, I would also note that The End of Time Part 2 was included in The 10 Christmas Specials home media release. Alex|The|Whovian 23:33, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Other special episodes

Why not expand this article to include Planet of the Dead, The Waters of Mars and The Day of the Doctor as well? BlueBlue11 (talk) 20:45, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

They aired in April 2009, November 2009 and November 2013, respectively. They are not Christmas specials. – Rhain1999 ^{(talk to me)} 23:45, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Also, they already have their own articles: Doctor Who (2008–10 specials) and Doctor Who (2013 specials). DonQuixote (talk) 00:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Hence why I said "other special episodes", Rhain 1999. BlueBlue11 (talk) 01:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Please note that this article is titled "List of Doctor Who Christmas specials", not "List of Doctor Who special episodes". Alex|The|Whovian 01:01, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

While it may be true that the article is currently about Christmas specials and therefore those episodes wouldn't qualify, I think BlueBell11 was suggesting that the scope of the article be widened (and the article be renamed) to include all specials. This would mean the addition of The Five Doctors (1983), Planet of the Dead (2009), The Waters of Mars (2009), The Day of the Doctor (2013), and arguably the TV Movie (1996). Surely a "List of Doctor Who specials" page giving detail on ALL special episodes in the same manner as individual season/series pages would be more useful than a page listing just Christmas specials which seems arbitrarily specific, particularly since these are all listed on List of Doctor Who serials anyway. 2A02:C7F:A61F:B200:1D98:9469:CC55:31E7 (talk) 22:14, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Bit late to the party. This would not be necessary; Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not simply a site to list everything we can think of. The 2009 and 2013 episodes already exist on articles detailing the specials, leaving only the two classic episodes. This is an article for the Christmas specials only - the lead details the specials during Christmas, and the home media release was only contained Christmas specials; if you believe a separate article should exist for all specials, then you need to suggest it elsewhere. -- Alex^TW 22:18, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

New Year episodes and classic Doctor Who.

This article was recently moved from List of Doctor Who Christmas specials to List of Doctor Who Christmas and New Year's specials, presumably in response to the announcement of the 2019 New Year special. While I have no objection to this decision, it could now be considered inconsistent with how classic Doctor Who is represented. It currently mentions The Feast of Steven as being the only classic episode to air on Christmas day, however it does not mention a number of classic episodes which aired on New Year's Day:

• The Daleks' Master Plan episode 8: Volcano
• Day of the Daleks part 1
• The Face of Evil part 1

They make no reference to New Year, only airing on New Year's Day. The Feast of Steven is very much a comedy interlude, and directly references Christmas. Should these New Year episodes be included? If not, the article must be clear as to why. 2A02:C7F:A61F:B200:FD35:6902:6A16:E0E8 (talk) 13:45, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

(pinging AlexTheWhovian as mover) I believe these don't count as specials as they are regular episodes and don't reference the festive period. Although it might be WP:OR to suggest that episodes shouldn't be on their list purely based on plot analysis. Maybe Feast of Steven could be reconsidered as a Christmas special worthy to be on this list; on one hand it is a regular episode, on the other hand, as you say, it references Christmas. Nevertheless, thank you for posting you comment. TedEdwards 13:55, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

They are just regular episodes that happened to air on New Year's Day, they were specials specifically planned for the day, unlike TEOT Part 2 and the 2019 special, and had no relationship to the day itself. "The Feast of Steven" was unique in that it was the only classic episode that aired on Christmas Day (however, again, it was just regular episodes that happened to air on Christmas Day), but it specifically references Christmas Day itself with the fourth-wall-breaking interlude at the end of the episode. I'm thinking, table-wise, we only include 2005 onwards, and we simply cover the four classic era episodes in prose. -- Alex^TW 22:58, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Alex, you would have my backing on your final sentence, if you wanted to go along with it :). Seems to be a sensible approach. TedEdwards 23:18, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

@AlexTheWhovian: You contradict your own comment above in making these reverts, reinstating the content that I had removed, my edit summary being these were not specials; they just happened to have one episode broadcast on 1 January because of the way that the calendar fell that year. It's coincidence, no more than that or variants thereon. In all three of your edit summaries you state Exactly the same as "The Feast of Steven"; it just happened to have been broadcast on 25 December because of the way that the calendar fell that year. They are not exactly the same. "The Feast of Steven" was specifically written for Christmas, which is referenced several times - and not just at the very end. It's a standalone episode, sharing none of the cast (bar the three regulars) with the other eleven. It would have been an incomprehensible jar to the plot had it been scheduled for any other day of the year: if you listen to eleven out of twelve episodes of The Daleks' Master Plan, omitting "The Feast of Steven", nothing is lost from the story with the exception of the resolution of the cliffhanger which closes "Coronas of the Sun". By contrast, Day of the Daleks episode one and The Face of Evil part one are segments of the story that continues with the following episode seamlessly. There is nothing at all in these two episodes to suggest that the date is 1 January, or that it is New Year's Day on the calendar. So I contend that whilst "The Feast of Steven" is indeed a Christmas special, there is simply no way that Day of the Daleks episode one and The Face of Evil part one can be considered New Year specials. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:15, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

My understanding of "The Feast of Steven" was that it was never meant to be a Christmas "special", just an episode that coincidentally aired on Christmas (same as DotD and TFoE for New Year's), and that the Christmas plot was effectively a hasty edition. Much like how The End of Time was never a traditional New Year's special, but just the second part to a Christmas special that happened to air a week later. -- Alex^TW 09:58, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

From my understanding, by special we mean non-regular episode, so the three classic episodes we've mentioned aren't specials, they just aired that day, but TEoT pt. 2 isn't a regular episode, so by that reasoning, isn't that a New Year special. Or is that OR? In any case, surely TEoT pt.2 should be on the list because the plot to pt.1 doesn't make sense? TedEdwards 14:00, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that TEoT should be deleted; I'm for keeping it, along with the classic episodes (also see #The End of Time). The classic episodes are simply prose notes to comment that while they aired on Christmas/New Year's, they weren't dedicated specials. -- Alex^TW 00:03, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I think the current layout is best. The End of Time was specifically advertised as a special for both its episodes - there are several sources for that, so it's not OR. The 'classic' episodes were not specials. I challenge anyone to find a source saying they were. I'd agree that 'feast of steven' deserves a special mention because of the nature of that episode in contrast to the rest of Dalek Master Plan. The three new years day episodes though, are probably best left as briefer mentions, because they were just regular episodes that happened to fall on new years day rather than special episodes designed to air on new years day (/christmas day). 2A02:C7D:159:6A00:5513:97FF:7CA5:28B4 (talk) 11:27, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, and that's how it is laid out. -- Alex^TW 15:19, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

My problem is not with the article List of Doctor Who Christmas and New Year's specials, it is with recent edits to Template:Doctor Who Christmas and New Year's specials and the articles Day of the Daleks and The Face of Evil. If these two serials are not listed as specials at List of Doctor Who Christmas and New Year's specials, why are they being linked from Template:Doctor Who Christmas and New Year's specials and why is that navbox on those two articles? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:53, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

@Redrose64: Yeah, I agree, if the consensus is they're not specials, the template should be got rid of. TedEdwards 23:17, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 3 January 2019

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus. After extended time for discussion, no consensus has been achieved. bd2412 T 00:26, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

List of Doctor Who Christmas and New Year's specials → List of Doctor Who specials – Reviving the above discussion and opening up to the wider project. Now that annual Christmas day specials are no longer, I believe it is worth reconsidering whether this article could better serve the project by naming all Doctor Who special episodes. This would include The Five Doctors and Doctor Who (film), an overview of the Doctor Who (2008–2010 specials) with a link to that main article, and "The Day of the Doctor". It may also be considered useful to mention spin-off specials K-9 and Company, "Invasion of the Bane" and An Adventure in Space and Time in a short prose section.

Now the article is at "Christmas and New Year's specials", the distinction between these and specials broadcast at other times of the year begins to feel extremely arbitrary. Expanding the remit seems to be the best way to avoid that bias, while allowing future New Year/Easter/whatever holiday specials to be added alongside. I'm aware that WhySoSerious? (talk · contribs) recently created an additional page at the proposed title, but my proposal would retain a chronological order and avoid overlap with List of supplementary Doctor Who episodes and duplication of Doctor Who (2008–2010 specials). I believe that Doctor Who (2013 specials) should be merged into this page, but would make that proposal afterwards. U-Mos (talk) 00:54, 3 January 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 22:14, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Additional proposal to move Template:Doctor Who Christmas and New Year's specials to Template:Doctor Who specials. U-Mos (talk) 01:12, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Draft of proposed changes now ready at User:U-Mos/sandbox. I invite all interested parties to view this, and would welcome any further contributions there. No substantial changes to the content of this page, but slight expansion that I think allows it to serve a much better purpose. U-Mos (talk) 02:30, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Survey

• Strong Oppose, but a good faith suggestion. The Christmas episodes have a special place in the legacy and overall pattern of the show. Moving them a few days ahead to the next holiday season holiday - New Year's Day - keeps the specials within the unique holiday special and holidays-oriented storyline presentations, and allows the franchise to continue that ongoing theme. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:04, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Comment My mind comes back to "Planet of the Dead" especially - what exactly separates that as an Easter special from "Resolution" and even "The Return of Doctor Mysterio", all of which start on their respective holidays and then quickly move on? Is it the grouping of secondary sources you're referring to? U-Mos (talk) 01:12, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

If there was a tradition of yearly Doctor Who Easter specials then that would be the basis of another holiday article page. The yearly holiday season special is a notable theme that is well covered by this page. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:27, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

• Strong oppose I see no issue with the current title. This article was created specifically for Christmas specials, and has only recently been updated to add the newly-changed New Year's special, and thus still only lists the end/start-of-year specials. If it's just titled as "specials", where do we stop? Every special ever? Easter? What about other editors that add the 2008–2010 specials? Anyone else may want to add the supplementary episodes. Also, nobody has said that "that annual Christmas day specials are no longer" - we only have a source stating that 2018's Christmas Special was moved to 2019's New Year's Special. Can you support that they're permanently moved? But, no. This article is for the festive specials. -- /Alex/₂₁ 01:08, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Please read my full proposal above, where I address most of your comments. You are correct that we don't know it is a permanent change, slight hyperbole from me above I apologise - which I maintain is all the more reason the article should have the capacity to include future specials, whenever they might air. U-Mos (talk) 01:15, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

I read the full proposal. I continue to strongly oppose it, so that this article continues to be an article solely for the end/start-of-year specials. As you likely noticed, the edits at List of Doctor Who specials were reverted by myself, as such an article is not necessary. Will you be replying to all opposing comments? -- /Alex/₂₁ 01:18, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

No I won't Alex, but as you asked several questions that my proposal directly answers I felt it would be beneficial to point you to where they are. Please remain WP:CIVIL. You were quite right to revert those changes, as they created an overlapping article without any attempt to fit into the project or discuss. I'm working on a sandbox draft of the proposed changes, which I will post here, otherwise (unless further direct questions are asked of me) I'll step away and let the discussion progress now. U-Mos (talk) 01:34, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm certainly being civil. Just because I oppose your merge/change/rename... I'll take a look at the sandbox draft, and continue to strongly oppose the changes, so that this article continues to exist for the purpose that it was created for. Thank you. -- /Alex/₂₁ 01:39, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose I agree that this article is designed for annual festive specials only, not just a list of every single special there has ever been. I admit I thought of this idea a few weeks ago, but I decided against it.
  On a different note, U-Mos, in your sandbox, per WP:USERNOCAT, I've add a colon after the two opening square brackets for each category i.e. [[Category: to [[:Category:. This made it look like a normal wikilink, and your sandbox won't be included in any mainspace categories. TedEdwards 13:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

I thought I'd make my reasons for opposition clearer; starting with 2005, there has been an annual special of Doctor Who, which was until 2017 broadcast on Christmas Day, and in 2018 broadcast on New Year's Day instead, the fact that the New Year's Day special replaced Christmas Day specials is well sourced. With these specials, there have been addition specials, i.e. Planet of the Dead, The Waters of Mars, and Day of the Doctor. But these three specials are not part of the tradition of having a special annually. That is the reason why I believe that putting Christmas and New Year's Day specials together is not arbitrary, and therefore I believe there is no reason to change the name of this article to emcompass all specials ever, and therefore change the purpose (that DonQuixote confirmed) of this article. This article was designed for a specific type of special, and Resolution is the same type of special (i.e. it's part of the annual tradition), so should therefore be included in the article, but this addition (and the necessitated page move to "Christmas and New Year's specials") did not change the purpose of this article IMO. --TedEdwards 01:00, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

• Small note It seems my initial proposal wasn't clear, that I am well aware that the article was designed to list festive specials only. I am suggesting that is scope is altered in light of recent changes. The apposite question for commenters here is therefore not 'what is the article (as is) for?', but 'what should the article be for?' It's also worth mentioning that the article currently offers no sources to justify that the festive specials, including "Resolution" as a NYD special but sans those broadcast at other times of the year, are the specific notable tradition. Christmas Day itself you could justify, but that would mean closing the list off at "Twice Upon a Time". Lastly, it should be noted that the page was moved to the current title (and thus the scope of the article changed) by Alex 21 in November without discussion. Pinging original creator DonQuixote for input. U-Mos (talk) 22:36, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

  I moved the article as "Resolution" was already included before it was announced to be a New Year's Day special, and since the move was a mere week from Christmas to New Year's, the episode was still counted as a festive special, was still listed here, and thus the title needed to reflect the change. I saw no need for discussion; not everything needs discussion. A chance as big as what is proposed, yes, that would need discussion, as it changes the entire output of the article. And while I thank you for the work done in your sandbox, I have to say that such a split would be and look terrible. -- /Alex/₂₁ 23:07, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Clarification I mention the November page move above not to suggest that it was incorrect of Alex 21 to perform it, but to display that an article's scope can legitimately change under changed circumstances - and in this case, did so without objection very recently. I believe that that expansion of scope should be taken further, hence this proposal. U-Mos (talk) 22:52, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

• It was designed for specials inbetween series (apart from Tennant's final specials). Talk:Doctor Who (series 9)/Archive 1#Why is Last Christmas part of this series DonQuixote (talk) 00:13, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

  Thank you, that talk section is very useful to see. Considering that the article was first created to solve a problem in categorising 2014's Last Christmas, I believe that the proposed changes follow that spirit - allowing similar categorisation issues with The Five Doctors, "Time of the Doctor" and "Resolution" (which is not included in series 11's DVD/Blu-Ray/digital home media releases) to be solved - and allowing any future between-series specials to be included, whatever time of year they may appear at. U-Mos (talk) 00:30, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

• Support - seems arbitrary to have two types of specials with their own article, and remaining specials elsewhere. I don't see a compelling reason for the split, and see the benefit to readers of housing all specials together -- Whats new?^(talk) 22:51, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

  Except that it's not two types of specials at all, as already explained. -- /Alex/₂₁ 23:04, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) But it's not really two types of special and arbitrary; there both festive specials, which since 2005, have featured annually. The 2019 New Year's special replaced the Christmas special for 2018 (as cited by reliable sources). The other specials aren't regualar specials i.e. there isn't an annual Easter special, despite there being one as part of the 2008-10 specials. So groups of specials i.e. 2008-10 and 2013 are different from Christmas and New Year specials in the sense that the latter are annual and the former not. Mind you, what I don't see sense in is List of Doctor Who specials redirecting to this article, I think it should be a disambig page to various specials and list of specials articles. --TedEdwards 23:10, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

In what sense are the specials annual when on one occasion we have two Christmas/New Year's Day specials airing in the same block (The End of Time)? Annual but occasionally biannual is not a consistent definition, and this is shook further by the fact that those two episodes are part of a series of 5 specials from 2008-10, so since the dates seem to be fungible (if the distinction between Christmas and New Year is irrelevant on the grounds that the event is annual), what makes these 2 of 5 specials the ones that should be categorised alongside the other specials? Then there's also the question of what makes the Classic era section relevant to anything—that wasn't an annual occurrence. They don't fit based on your definition, but "The Feast of Steven" and "Volcano" are clearly relevant. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 01:02, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Just to point out that there is absolutely nothing in the proposed changes that would prevent the Christmas or Christmas/New Year 'tradition' since 2005 being mentioned and cited, within the wider category of all Doctor Who specials. U-Mos (talk) 01:09, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

@Bilorv: Sorry, I've just noticed your message which may have been a reply to mine. The annual tradition has not been interupted since 2005. And the End of Time pt.2 is not part of the annual tradition; it's been listed here since the article was created (and when the article was called "List of Doctor Who Christmas specials"), because it's the second part to the annual Christmas special of 2009, so hence it's always been in this list. Therefore, the definition I gave is consistant. And regarding "Feast of Steven" and "Volcano", we only mention those plus some other classic episodes because they happened to air on 25 December or 1 January, but we do not list them as there was a consensus to the fact they were not specials. --TedEdwards 13:08, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

• Support: it's very arbitrary to pick Christmas and New Year in isolation when there has also been an Easter special; that means this isn't listing all festive episodes or all episodes made for a religious holiday or all date-based episodes, but simply cherry-picking two types of specials from a bigger pile. This proposed "List of Doctor Who specials" looks excellent to me (once the Classic era and Home media release bits from this article are added to it). Note also that specials even arise in different circumstances: the most recent New Year's episode was produced alongside the tenth series while The End of Time (Part Two) was a New Year's episode produced in lieu of a series. The mini-episodes for Children in Need are perhaps separable from this set of full-length special episodes, but otherwise the page move and scope change seem very necessary—and have been for longer than the two days since "Resolution" aired. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 9:38 am, Today (UTC+10.5)
  • "Resolution" was most certainly not produced alongside the tenth series. Can you explain why the two parts of The End of Time should remain split in the (horrendous) diff link provided? -- /Alex/₂₁ 23:13, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
    • Forgive me for the error. Eleventh. In answer to your question: the episodes aired separately. There's no way to simultaneous satisfy every natural system of categorisation (by day of the year; chronologically; by story arcs etc.) and so in this case we should compromise by splitting one two-parter up. Note that it's no accident that the two parts aired on festive dates—Christmas and New Year's Day—and so these dates are integral to the episodes' nature, not an arbitrary method of categorisation. To display them next to each other is to miss this piece of information. Please do not describe another editor's hard efforts as "horrendous". I recommend that you strike that adjective. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 23:35, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
      • And yet, they were grouped together as a serial by title, by production, and by release, including being included on The 10 Christmas Specials home media release (yes, despite that it was a New Year's special). No information is being missed - the dates clearly indicate that they were released on their respective holidays. And thank you for the suggestion, but it was horrendous; that's the only term I can think of for it. -- /Alex/₂₁ 23:38, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
        • And your preferred version groups a New Year's Day special ("Resolution") alongside Christmas specials, when the special alludes specifically to New Year's Day (and New Year's Eve) but not in any way to Christmas. This is a nonsense akin to the one you're complaining about, as is the omission of the clearly festive episode "Planet of the Dead", but as I say above: no system of categorisation can possibly resolve all of these errors. We need to base the lists on a rule, not an ad-hoc patchwork idea (first Christmas; then Christmas and New Year; in four years time, perhaps Christmas, Boxing Day and New Year). That rule is to list all specials, rather than singling out arbitrary dates based on personal feeling. At that point, I argue that we should categorise specials by holiday rather than chronologically, but you argue otherwise; that isn't an argument against a list of specials, merely an argument about how such a list of specials should be organised. And that's a debate you could probably convince me in—listing by Doctors seems just as sensible as by dates. (In fact, I'm sure a sortable table could achieve both.) — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 00:47, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
          • Indeed, it groups festive specials together, as the episode was traditionally an annual Christmas special that was specifically moved. "Planet of the Dead" as a singular special, not an annual one, nor was any other special. Can you back up the fact that there will be a Boxing Day special? I can't find any source that states such a thing. The only thing I'm arguing it so continue listing the specials as they were originally created; an alternate suggestion of List of Doctor Who festive episodes may be more concise. -- /Alex/₂₁ 00:53, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
            • "...Christmas and New Year's specials" seems better for accuracy, as the respective holidays are mentioned and featured in every special. Probably best kept at the stable title (with, of course, New Year's added), although if conciseness is needed better to drop the unneeded "List of". Randy Kryn (talk) 01:01, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
            • This is what I mean by ad hoc—you're making two separate arguments for two separate situations (The End of Time and "Resolution") when one much simpler definition would cover all three cases, and any future cases (my wording made it clear that no Boxing Day special is planned but the "annual" specials have not fit a pattern of happening annually in the past and there's no reason to think they would start to do so from now onwards). Your "List of Doctor Who festive episodes" is a sensible title for something that includes the Easter special, but not otherwise. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 01:09, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
              • Are you saying that there is there only one more holiday special, the Easter special? I was never a Doctor Who fan, so I don't know the entire history (I was lucky to start watching Doctor Who at the first Doctor/Clara episode, to me an epic arc in television history). If there is only that one more, maybe a consensus can be achieved by adding it and calling the page Doctor Who holiday specials. The others specials are not directly related to holidays, and what some of us are saying is that the holiday class of specials is a strong one, is a unit, and is worthy of a stand-alone page. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:31, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
                • Without a source to back that 'unit' of specials up, I don't think that holds any water. "Planet of the Dead" is part of the Doctor Who (2008–2010 specials), which are linked by production circumstances and many secondary sources. These specials and the Christmas specials are both part of the broader category of 'Doctor Who specials', with some overlaps (The Next Doctor/The End of Time). As I've said, the Christmas day specials can (and were) justified as a notable categorisation, but when you add in "Resolution" it becomes very hard to justify excluding the other specials from the list. (Fun fact: "The Waters of Mars", broadcast November 2009, was devised as a Christmas special, not to mention that Doctor Who (film) is a special set around New Year...) U-Mos (talk) 22:52, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
                  • ? The film was released in May, 1996. May 1996 is five months after New Years Day, 1996 (at least in the dating system this discussion centers on). "The Water of Mars" was broadcast in mid-November, well before the recognized Christmas and holiday season. Please consider not answering this, as you've made your viewpoint clear above and below in extensive and continuing comments and "sections". Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:56, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
                    • Reluctantly I feel I have to make one final comment before allowing the discussion to progress, as you have entirely misrepresented my previous comment. I mention those episodes precisely to demonstrate that narrative and production circumstances of Christmas/NY episodes are not exclusive to the episodes currently listed, as they are shared by other specials broadcast at different times of year. Sorry if that wasn't clear, and I'd respectfully suggest that you follow your own advice and avoid re-stating the same points repeatedly (the resultant obfuscation is the reason I decided to delineate in the below summary). U-Mos (talk) 01:53, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
  • To clarify: "Resolution" was produced at the end of the eleventh series, following a (very) short break. Bilorv is correct to state that production circumstances differ between different specials - 2012 and 2016's Christmas specials, for instance, were made between episodes of series 7(b) and 10, while 2013's was produced entirely separately. Children in Need and other similar episodes are currently list at List of supplementary Doctor Who episodes, which I do not propose altering. (Full disclosure: I moved that article from List of special Doctor Who episodes yesterday, as I considered removing the clear ambiguity between those 'special episodes' and these 'specials' to be uncontroversial.) U-Mos (talk) 23:25, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
    • Why not merge all the separate episode articles? What separation do you make between "special" episodes and "supplementary" episodes (originally "special" episodes). It should be noted that that page was moved to the current title also without discussion. -- /Alex/₂₁ 23:29, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
      • All addressed and/or answered above. I do not intend to propose a merger with the supplementary episodes list, but if someone else wished to that would have to come after this article's proposed move and refocus. U-Mos (talk) 23:47, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
    • Ah, I hadn't seen this supplementary list before. It looks precisely like the perfect accompaniment to a list of (full-length) specials. — Bilorv_(c)(talk) 23:35, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support. I was actually going to close this as "no consensus" but the reasons listed below and above made me think, "hmm, there may not be a consensus yet, but maybe there should be." I think rescoping to include all "specials" is a reasonable move given all the arguments here. Christmas is important, of course, but putting all these "specials" in one place may be more relevant for our very specific purposes. Red Slash 02:20, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Nominators summary

Below is a short summary to delineate the matters raised in the above discussion, for the aid of any subsequent commenters and ultimately closers, with a couple of additional pertinent factual points not yet raised. Of course I am not without interest in this matter, so any editor is welcome to object to any wordings chosen underneath.

1. The intent of the article

It has been raised that the proposed change works against what the article is intended for. Thanks to DonQuixote's link to this discussion, we can see that the article was created to allow for episodes that do not fit into any series article (e.g. Doctor Who (series 11) to be listed. If we take DVD box set inclusion as a marker for this, then Twice Upon a Time (Doctor Who) and Resolution (Doctor Who) currently fit this description ("Last Christmas" was eventually included on the series 9 box set). The Five Doctors from 1983 also does not definitively sit in any season - it is currently listed within Doctor Who (season 20), with no source offered to justify its inclusion there. The proposed move would allow The Five Doctors to be included, and allow any future non-series special broadcast outside Christmas/New Year to be listed also.

2. The 'tradition' of Christmas/festive specials

Doctor Who broadcast a special episode on Christmas Day every year between 2005 and 2017 inclusive. There is no doubt that this is a noteworthy tradition among the show's special episodes. However, from just one year on a different date the justification of "Resolution" as part of this tradition - while still excluding other special episodes from the article - is debatable. Several editors above have pointed out that future scheduling is unknown, and between-series specials could air at any time of year - and also that the scheduling of specials has previously been irregular when the 2008-10 period is taken into account. It has also been pointed out that the production circumstances of the specials differ - some have been made during filming for a full series, some separately. I would add that their narrative function differs considerably also: some are entirely standalone stories, some contribute essentially to ongoing narrative arcs.

3. The parameters of the article

There is currently no suggestion that the article is expanded beyond full episodes that are part of the main television series. List of supplementary Doctor Who episodes continues to list charity mini-episodes, script to screen winners (short episodes written by school children), DVD special scenes, online 'prequels', sketches within other shows etc etc. My sandbox draft contains a short dab line and an improved lead to make that clear.

I hope the above aids clarity for any further responders to this move request and the associated changes to the article. U-Mos (talk) 04:05, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

This summary is just another long comment by the nominator, so it's a summary of their point of view. The strong tradition of the 2005 - present rendition to include an annual holiday special is, to many Doctor Who fans, special indeed. This was never meant to be a page to lump together all the old specials with the new tradition, it is an article about a unique Doctor Who eagerly waited-for and anticipated phenomena: the Christmas special. Which is now the Christmas and New Years Day special. Written, acted, and messaged in the spirit of the holidays. The nom, if passed, removes that concept and specialness from Wikipedia, and would actually dilute the page even as it expands it. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:49, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. I've never seen such a header before - any such summary should have been put in the original request. This seems like just an expanded attempt to sway and "overall" any discussion in a similar attempt to avoid WP:BLUDGEON by writing another summary. -- /Alex/₂₁ 05:58, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Question and alternative proposal

Do any of our other lists cover these other specials? If so then we need to improve navigation to make the material a bit easier to find, and recast this as a merge request, which it (in that case) really is.

And if not, I suggest that someone boldly create an article on all the specials with main links in place of the details for the specials already covered by this list, and then this request would again be far more neatly considered a merge. Andrewa (talk) 23:12, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Even in that case it likely would not pass consensus as a merge. The 'Christmas' (and now 'Holiday') specials are too much of a separate "thing". They are considered by many, if not most (I would think most), as a stand-alone category of Doctor Who shows. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:32, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

In answer to Andrewa's question: The Five Doctors is listed in Doctor Who (season 20), which I do not consider to be correct (no source for its inclusion there) and intend to boldly remove once this discussion has ended; the 1996 film is not listed anywhere other than the full List of Doctor Who episodes (1963-1989) (I wrote the synopsis in my sandbox draft from scratch), the 2008-10 specials (including the Christmas episodes of these) are listed at Doctor Who (2008-2010 specials) (hence the truncated list and main link in my sandbox), "Day of the Doctor" is listed with "Time of the Doctor" at Doctor Who (2013 specials). All the specials currently listed on the article are also listed elsewhere as part of particular series, though "Twice Upon a Time" and "Resolution" should also be removed from Doctor Who (series 10) and Doctor Who (series 11) respectively as they are not part of those series' box sets (the anticipated circumstance that was the purpose of this article's creation - see above). If such a process is considered preferable to a re-name, I would be happy to create an article at List of Doctor Who specials and propose a merger as suggested. U-Mos (talk) 03:01, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Such a bold removal will likely be reverted quite soon after. Yes, the standard practice is to group specials with the series on whose DVD release they were added to, but it makes little no no sense to go with this method of displaying specials and then not show two of them solely because of it. Looking at List of Doctor Who episodes (2005–present), an editor might then ask themselves why stories #276 and #287 aren't there. Why have they just disappeared? -- /Alex/₂₁ 03:05, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

No intention to have them absent from that list, but this isn't the place to discuss that. U-Mos (talk) 03:27, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

If it's not the place to discuss that, then why bring it up here? You intended to discuss the removals; let's discuss the removals. Where would they go, so that the layout confirms with previous series articles? -- /Alex/₂₁ 03:38, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Five Doctors mentioned to show that this article is arguably a better place for it to be listed than the ill-fitting season 20. Others struck out above to avoid distracting from the matter at hand; I'll be happy to discuss in the appropriate place when the time comes. U-Mos (talk) 11:14, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Regardless of whether this article is or is not changed, the content of List of Doctor Who episodes (1963–1989) and List of Doctor Who episodes (2005–present) should not be changed or removed, as their purpose is to list every episode of the programme. If The Five Doctors is better placed on a specials article then the Season 20 article, then where will it be on the 1963–1989 episodes article? Or will there be a gap at Story #129? -- /Alex/₂₁ 11:47, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

U-Mos I would, if I were you, take a look at Talk:List of Doctor Who episodes (2005–present)/Archive 15 (if you can manage to read the 2 month long and very circular discussion without falling asleep!). The discussion there resulted in the decision to include headers for Christmas specials and grouping season tables by boxset (the previous consensus I think was just to put the Christmas special with the next series). I say this because at the time Alex and I (known then as AlexTheWhovian and Theoosmond respectively) thought of having all Christmas specials in separate tables. But if you're having a discussion on this, have it at Talk:List of Doctor Who episodes (2005-present) --TedEdwards 15:23, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

If it would not pass consensus as a merge then we need two lists. And again, the sooner they both exist the better. Andrewa (talk) 18:45, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

What a mess. I have some knowledge of Doctor Who (even appreciation, as an irregular but long term watcher since it was new), but pity the poor general reader who doesn't, and comes here looking for a particular thing they have seen or heard about! Andrew, you're a Wikipedian, does Wikipedia have this information? At present my reply would be Probably, but it's so well hidden if we do, we might just as well not have it. So let's Google the rest of the Internet and put -Wikipedia to cut out all that the noise, and that might tell us. Perhaps there's a clear, general-reader-friendly overview of all episodes, specials, etc. somewhere. And I have to say, perhaps not. If there is we need to link to it so people can find it. If not, well really, this RM is just re-arranging the deckchairs. Actually, either way it is. Sorry if that's blunt rather than gentle, but I'm afraid worse follows. There's obviously a lot of interest and expertise in this topic. How about using it? End of sermon. Andrewa (talk) 18:45, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Reasonably put. Having looked around the various articles and structure in the course of this proposal, I think there are multiple improvements to be made. Taking the views here into account, I will raise any suggestions on the project page for discussion before making any edits - but only after this discussion has concluded. U-Mos (talk) 22:42, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Revolution of the Daleks"

"Christmas TV schedule" does not necessarily mean "Christmas Day" or a "Christmas special". A source needs to explicitly state this its airdate to be included. And "however it is yet to be confirmed if it will be broadcast on Christmas Day"? Since when do we include the lack of a confirmation of something on Wikipedia, especially an airdate? -- /Alex/₂₁ 12:21, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

This article is "List of Doctor Who Christmas and New Year's specials" not "List of Doctor Who Christmas Day specials". We have multiple sources referring to this as either a "festive episode" or "festive special", and multiple editors who think it should be included. The phrase "however it is yet to be confirmed if it will be broadcast on Christmas Day" was not in the version of the article you reverted before posting here, which suggests you are now reverting without first reading. "state this its airdate" cannot be parsed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:03, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Festive special, yes. Christmas special, no, it's not sourced to be so in the "body of the article". I've updated that content for you. -- /Alex/₂₁ 22:17, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

And there we have it: not a Christmas special, making "2020 Christmas special" factually incorrect then and now. -- /Alex/₂₁ 23:41, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Which other festive season did you think this might refer to? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:55, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: I'm not sure which side you're actually arguing on. Your edit described the episode as a "Christmas special". Alex is the one who corrected it—and, as we know now, he was right: the episode is a New Year's special, not Christmas. You seemed to be arguing for the phrasing "festive special", but you're the one who used "Christmas special" in the first place. – Rhain ☔ 23:11, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

No, I am not "the one who used 'Christmas special' in the first place". No, I am not "arguing for the phrasing 'festive special'". We also know that Christmas ends in the first week of January. HTH. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:33, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

But it’s not a "Christmas special" if it airs on New Year’s Day, no matter what you decide to call the "holiday season"—it’s either a "festive special” or a "New Year’s special". In any case, I’m glad Alex had the right idea. – Rhain ☔ 14:09, 2 December 2020 (UTC)