Talk:Langues d'oïl

Title

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 09:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Article name

I think this should be moved back to "Langues d'Oïl". It's the term (even in English) that I have seen more frequently.

A google search reveals 28,700 hits for "Langues d'Oïl", and only about 15k for "Oïl languages". Furthermore, "Oil Languages" is a misspelling.

Anyone oppose? The Jade Knight 01:33, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

This page used to be at Oïl languages. We also have the fairly superfluous List of Oïl languages. I was (and still am) quite content with Oïl languages, as that's what I say in English myself. What I do not say in English is Oil languages - not only a misspelling but a mispronunciation. Man vyi 07:16, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

And, of course, this page is still in Category:Oïl languages! Man vyi 11:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, the argument that diacritics are not used in English (and so that therefore the Oïl languages should be renamed in English Wikipedia) hardly stands up when one looks at:

• Franco-Provençal language
• Provençal language
• Niçard
• Māori language
• Mócheno language
• Pfälzisch language
• Na-Dené languages
• Bokmål
• Meänkieli
• Võro language
• Luiseño language
• etc

Man vyi 11:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Let alone words like "naïve" and "fiancé". The Jade Knight 19:26, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay but ...

I made the same search for Langues d'Oïl and many of the results were in French so I'm not sure your conclusions are accurate.

It is a shame that people are starting to use diacritics in English because English is one of the few languages that uses the Latin alphabet without diacritics. Yet they are starting to creep in. For example, the American Heritage dictionary now says "Noël" is the preferred variant of Noel. The etymology says it was spelled "Noel" in Middle English. In French it is spelled "Noël." I see little reason to start using diacritics in English other than to impress. However, the term Oil Languages is misleading so I reluctantly concede this point but only when referring to other languages as all your Wikipedia examples do. I think "naive" and "fiance" are fine without the pretension of diacritics.Tim Q. Wells 20:14, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Diacritics in names are not pretentious (although let's make an exception for self-conscious typographic tomfoolery like Mötley Crüe, but then Wikipedia accepts it because that's the name of the band). But that aside, do we now have consensus for returning the article to any of:

1. Oïl languages
2. Langues d'oïl
3. Langues d'Oïl
4. Oïl language family
5. another option (non-oily)? Man vyi 22:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Borrowed words into English regularly retain diacritics. This certainly makes much more sense from an orthographic point of view. I am actually of the opposite opinion of your own, Tim Q. Wells, and it bothers me (from a pronunciation standpoint) to see "fiancé" spelled without the accented "é". Italisize borrowed words, if you like, but at least spell them correctly.

Back to the task at hand, a google search of "'Oil languages'" offers less than 600 results (almost in all cases it appears to be the acronym OIL, as in ontology interface layer). Clearly this is non-standard usage, even in English. Again, searching google, "'langue d'oïl' -daml" results in 49,100 English results. "'Oïl language' -daml" results in less than 11,000 English results, and "'Oil language' -daml" in less than 700 English results. I suggest we use what is clearly more common (Langue/Langues d'oïl). As for whether or not to capitalize the O, I do not know, and do not particularly care. The Jade Knight 01:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

"'Language of Oïl' -daml" actually seems to be the least common form of this term, yielding 265 English hits on Google. Google is usually a pretty good indicator of usage. The Jade Knight 19:12, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move (2006)

Languages of Oïl → Langues d'Oïl – It is inconsistent with other articles whose titles are about language groups. (copied from the entry on the WP:RM page)

Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support. Despite being in principle against non-English titles and diacritic creep, Langues d'Oïl seems to be the correct title. A pure English title would be the somewhat confusing "Yes Languages." LuiKhuntek 19:01, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Tim Q. Wells 19:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support with one proviso: "Langues d'oïl" (uncapitalized) appears to be near-universal. I suggest we go with the lowercase form for this reason. The Jade Knight 01:31, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 10:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC) - as for caps or lower case - go with most common usage.
• Support I studied French for 8 years and I've always found Langues d'oïl. GhePeU 10:33, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support "Langues d'oïl" - with the diacritic and a lowercase "o". Saintamh 22:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support (agreeing with JK and Saintamh) Tamfang 06:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

"Language of Oïl"? Is that what is spoken at OPEC?

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Francien

I have changed the explanation of Francien. Liam D 23:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Switzerland

Why is there nothing about Switzerland here? See Swiss French article. How did French reach the western cantons of Switzerland, and how long has it been there? --MacRusgail 15:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Frenchification

It seems there is a differénce between conforming to common term, and Frenchification. Is the titling of this article not more in accord with the latter? -Stevertigo 21:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Actual Use?

Aside from a few quaint street signs, shop names and hobbyists, is there any use of an oïl language other than French spoken at a level that would be unintelligible to the average Frenchman?

I don't ask this to be snarky, I am genuinely interested in whether Gallo, Champagnois, Picard, Burgundian, etc. actually exist in any real usable form--a search in Google for most of these languages yields little more than links to Wikipedia, and other than Walloon, I don't think any figures are given to the number of speakers.

Also, how much does each oïl language diverge French (in comparison, say, to Scots vs. English?)01:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)01:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)01:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)01:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)01:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)01:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)64.88.170.32 (talk)

As is the case with most of these minority languages, there is a problem of visibility - excluded from official use, they are used mostly at home or within traditional spheres - down on the farm, in the pub, at village meetings, rural markets and other arenas where speakers are likely to gather. As a Norman speaker, I know some Gallo speakers and Picard speakers, but that's just my anecdotal experience. Man vyi (talk) 07:17, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Could you speak Norman and be understood by Gallo and Picard speakers and vice versa?01:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I manage some simple and slow conversations with Gallo-speakers. I've attended story-telling and drama evenings and got the gist, and I can listen to Gallo broadcasts (but any humour or topical references go right over my head, so I don't manage to follow all that much). Anecdote: a couple of years I made some travel arrangements for some Gallo speakers and the meeting point on arrival was to be the harbour; they understood everything I communicated except the word for harbour - which turned out to be somewhat crucial. Picard's more difficult for me, as I come from the west so I only have occasional contact even with Cauchois speakers. By all accounts, Picard is easier to follow for Cauchois speakers. I've managed to be in a meeting where some of the discussion took place in Picard, but it was very difficult to follow. Walloon defeats me, really, and I've never got the impression that the few Walloon speakers who've heard me have ever been able to follow my Norman. None of this, of course, is encyclopaedic, but may be of interest. Man vyi (talk) 16:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The French actor Dany Boon speaks Picard fluently, and released a comedy DVD in the language (with French subtitles). Funnyhat (talk) 02:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary, the fact is that many of these languages are endangered and some may already be extinct. Others survive outside of France where they have been suppressed less aggressively. Take for example Occitan, which survives in Italy and Spain but has almost disappeared from France. Or Wallon and Picard, which are still widely spoken in Belgium.Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 19:23, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Interesting point, the same seems to be true for Norman which has survived in Jersey and Guernsey. Aaker (talk) 14:26, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Oil/Oc/Si

If this is Langues d'oïl and the other is Langues d'oc, what is Langues de si ? 76.66.193.119 (talk)

I think that referred to Catalan and other Ibero-Romance languages. 98.209.116.7 (talk) 02:26, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh, Langues de si definitely refers to those Romance languages that use a type of si for yes, including Portuguese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Djkernen (talk • contribs) 19:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

...and Italy. In fact, oïl/oc are outliers with regard to Romania continua, and according to the ALF (carte 958), reflexes of SIC are (were) found in the South of France, sometimes alongside HOC, sometimes not. The main point is that there were three major candidates for straightforward affirmative 'yes', not two, as the text states -- strangely, in that just a few lines further on it cites Dante's recognition of three types. 96.42.57.164 (talk) 15:08, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

No. The oc languages category was made for Occitan and Catalan. The si languages were Portuguese, Asturian, Spanish and a bunch of Italian ones. The medieval word for yes in Catalan is hoc. 46.25.8.55 (talk) 15:04, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation

If it states how to say oïl, then I have failed to see it. Varlaam (talk) 00:06, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I've been pronouncing it like "wheel", but it'd be good to have clarification from someone who knows better than I. The Jade Knight (talk) 22:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I've said "wheel" for decades, but I have no particular reason to believe that is correct.

Varlaam (talk) 02:09, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

And a final L in French can be silent, e.g. outil.

I don't think it's pronounced like "wheel," because normally there needs to be a "u" after the "o" to make that sound. In modern French, I believe it's a diphthong pronounced like "uh-eel" - though I'm not sure if an archaic word like this follows modern phonetic rules. 71.205.85.200 (talk) 23:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Just checked both of my accessible French dictionaries. Not listed. Varlaam (talk) 22:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

L'Académie française retient la définition suivante : la langue d'oïl regroupe l'ensemble des parlers pour lesquels oui se disait oïl (prononcez [wi] ou [wil], d'où "oui").

So, the minion of the august Académie française says we should say "wee" or "wheel" but monophthongously.

(Now there's a word that manages to find its way into virtually every conversation.)

Varlaam (talk) 22:26, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

"wheel" seems ok, then. The Jade Knight (talk) 07:58, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Bear in mind that the pronunciation citation above with its unencyclopedic phrasing reads strongly like a potentially less reliable interpolation by a 2nd editor. Varlaam (talk) 17:53, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

For what it's worth, since I was never sure if I should pronounce the final "L" or not, I've just been pronouncing it with a "dark L". XOXO, Dave (djkernen)|Talk to me|Please help! 18:09, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

According to the Petit Robert (which is not so petit), it's /dɔjl/ in French, but I don't think anyone says "Oyl languages" in English. "Wee" is probably fine, but might be associated with the more contemporary name, langues d'oui. — kwami (talk) 19:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

If we are to take the spelling with trema at face value (which for Old French isn't quite unjustified), and Wiktionary too, /o.il/ is the original Old French pronunciation. Since in Modern French, aï usually stands for /a.(j)i/, as in Haïti or haïr, but sometimes also for /aj/, as in Taïwan or faïence, pronouncing oïl as either /o.(j)il/ or /ɔjl/ would seem to be fine. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:58, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Location of articles on oïl varieties

Why are some articles on oïl varieties located at "XXX language" and others at "XXX dialect". --JorisvS (talk) 08:10, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Map

The green and yellow map suposed to show the distribution of these languages is more or less meaningless without a key. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.231.208 (talk) 19:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

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Meaning of langues d'oil?

I added a part that explained that oil refers to an Old French word that became oui and not the nonpolar substance. But it was reverted. So does that mean langues d'oil and langues d'huile actually are synonyms? Does "oil languages" refer to actual oil? If so, how do the languages relate to oil the substance? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.215.124 (talk) 23:57, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Oïl not langue

Oil and oc

The point of the name of this classification is the difference between the forms 'oïl' and 'oc', not the modern French form of the word 'language'. Suggesting the French form is used because it is native to the group is false, because as it stands, it is used with the 'oc' grouping, which is in contradistinction to the French.

Te reo Māori

We have Māori language, not Te reo Māori. Other languages do not use the native word for language, but the English, even when accents are used.

Chauvinism

The only reasons this has survived in English is by its use by French readers, which does not justify shoving it down the throats of English readers, and by the English inferiority complex arising out of the Norman invasion, and by French language chauvinism. The use of French grammar in pluralizing 'langue d' to 'langues d' clearly shows that French is being used in the article where English is policy. See also 'Oil and oc'.

Move article

In conclusion, the reasons given for moving this article were false and irrelevant, and its name now is against Wikipedia policy and practice. It should be moved back to Oïl languages or Oïl or Oil languages, whichever is more in line with Wikipedia practices and policy. Please add your replies after this line. 121.127.200.1 (talk) 04:27, 14 May 2022 (UTC)