Talk:Kaiserslautern Hauptbahnhof

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move all. EdJohnston (talk) 01:13, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

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{{requested move/dated}}

• Kaiserslautern Central Station → Kaiserslautern Hauptbahnhof
• Dresden Central Station → Dresden Hauptbahnhof
• Potsdam Central Station → Potsdam Hauptbahnhof
• Berchtesgaden Central Station → Berchtesgaden Hauptbahnhof
• Bayreuth Central Station → Bayreuth Hauptbahnhof
• Gera Central Station → Gera Hauptbahnhof
• Bielefeld Central Station → Bielefeld Hauptbahnhof
• Augsburg Central Station → Augsburg Hauptbahnhof
• Regensburg Central Station → Regensburg Hauptbahnhof
• Aschaffenburg Central Station → Aschaffenburg Hauptbahnhof
• Bonn Central Station → Bonn Hauptbahnhof
• Arnstadt Central Station → Arnstadt Hauptbahnhof
• Bochum Central Station → Bochum Hauptbahnhof
• Boppard Central Station → Boppard Hauptbahnhof

– reverting 121 undiscussed controversial moves per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:RS, and see Talk:Berlin Hauptbahnhof, Talk:Zürich Hauptbahnhof. The 14 the template allows represent the first 14, in move order, of 121 undiscussed moves. The RM is to restore all 121. The main issue in previous RMs was whether/how to exclude results like "Berlin's central station" (apostrophe 's small c, small s) from results X Central Station indicating a proper noun or a proper name. When "X's central station" "X's main railway station" are excluded evidence for "Central Station" is thin or non-existent depending on total number of sources. Kaiserslautern Hauptbahnhof is a case in point. The only English print source Fuller's Fans Guide to German Stadiums 2005 has "Out of the three, Frankfurt Main offers a direct connection to Kaiserslautern Hauptbahnhof at least once an hour and a further train with a connection in Mannheim also once an hour." It is also noted that "Haupt" doesn't mean "central", but "head" and is usually translated "Haupt/main Bahn/railway Hof/station" not "central station." Relisted as requested below. Favonian (talk) 20:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC). In ictu oculi (talk) 05:11, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Support/Oppose (please use thread section below for discussion).

• Oppose as the move fails WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. Take this article just as an initial example:
  • 65,000 online hits for "Kaiserslautern Central Station" vs. only 18,600 for Kaiserslautern Hbf. Further analysis of valid hits:
    • "Kaiserslautern Central Station" used on 14 websites: 9 travel, 1 sporting, 1 business, 1 specialist rail, 1 academic and 1 other.
    • Kaiserslautern Hbf used on 11 websites: 8 travel, 1 business and 2 others
    • Only one relevant English book source each for Kaiserslautern Hbf and "Kaiserslautern Central Station" (so let's use English)
  • Deutsche Bahn and ÖBB, the German and Austrian national rail carriers, both use "Central Station" as the English name for Hauptbahnhöfe alongside Hauptbahnhof itself
  • Deutsche Bahn's English business travel magazine has exclusively referred to Hauptbahnhöfe as "Foo Central Station" for the past decade
  • We already translate Bahnhof Foo as "Foo station". "Central station" is a valid translation of Hbf according to major dictionaries like Muret-Sanders, technical dictionaries like Ernst, and online dictionaries e.g. dict.cc & Pons.
  • Hauptbahnhöfe used to be called Centralbahnhöfe or Zentralbahnhöfe
  • "Foo Central Station" is common in Britain English-speaking countries, whereas there are only one or two "Foo Main Station"s worldwide. So "Central Station" is also the nearest equivalent we have as well.

Bermicourt (talk) 07:46, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Please; Comments if any disputing Bermicourt's search methods and results should go in discussion thread below to keep support and oppose legible In ictu oculi (talk) 16:56, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. The original move was controversial and was not discussed. It should therefore be reverted. According to WP:USEENGLISH, ".. if an examination of the sources ... shows that one name or version of the name stands out as clearly the most commonly used in the English language, we should follow the sources and use it." As the above analysis demonstrates, however, the expression "Central Station" does not stand out as clearly the most commonly used in the English language. Further, many of the sources mentioned in the analysis are not clearly demonstrated to be reliable sources. Whilst I accept that Deutsche Bahn's English language business travel magazine can perhaps be regarded as reliable, and that its usages may be of some significance, that magazine is not widely circulated outside Germany. On the other hand:
  • Today's Railways Europe, the most widely circulated magazine focusing on continental European railways (eg available over the counter in Australia), generally does not translate continental European rail terminology like Hauptbahnhof into English.
  • Deutsche Bahn's online timetable (available and used worldwide) uses only Kaiserslautern Hbf.
  • Google Maps (ditto) uses only Kaiserslautern Hbf.
  • Bing Maps (ditto) uses only Hauptbahnhof Kaiserslautern.
  • the maps in the English language printed guides to Berlin, Germany, Western Europe, etc, published by Lonely Planet, the world's most prolific travel guide publisher, identify German Hauptbahnhöfe only by the word Hauptbahnhof and a pictogram of a train.
  • It's not surprising that the former German language expressions Centralbahnhof or Zentralbahnhof have been replaced by Hauptbahnhof. Almost all Hauptbahnhöfe in Germany are located outside the former medieval walls of the city they serve, and are therefore not accurately described as "central". The 14 stations listed above can be used to illustrate this point: only four of them, Arnstadt Hbf, Berchtesgaden Hbf, Boppard Hbf and Gera Hbf, are really centrally located; Potsdam Hbf is not even on the same side of the river as central Potsdam (also, the four really centrally located stations all serve small cities, and this suggests that the more important the city and station, the less likely it is that the station is really central).
  • Consistently with this observation, the Hauptbahnhöfe in Vienna, Salzburg and Innsbruck are not located centrally enough to be included in the printed Lonely Planet maps of the central parts of Vienna, Salzburg and Innsbruck, respectively.
  • Contrary to Bermicourt's last bullet point above, there's no real English language equivalent to Hauptbahnhof, which is yet another reason why the expression should not be translated.

The same comments apply to the other 13 articles. Bahnfrend (talk) 08:40, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. I was unaware of the original moves to "Central Station" and it always felt like a mistake. Central Station isn't commonly used in English and original move discussion at Talk:Berlin Hauptbahnhof#Requested move (2011): Berlin Hauptbahnhof → Berlin Central Station was poorly-attended, undersourced, and should never have been treated as precedent. Mackensen (talk) 12:08, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. WP:COMMONNAME WP:RELIABLE SOURCE, WP:USEENGLISH; there is no requirement to eliminate foreign words which are used in English sources, and it is simpler, easier, unambiguous and much less confusing to use the common name as found in reliable English sources such as mainstream books, newspapers, specialist magazines etc. Hauptbahnhof is also more consistent across Wikipedia; pretty much every station in Wikipedia - apart from those Hauptbahnhofs which were renamed - is referred to by its (Latin alphabet) common name. It is confusing and ambiguous to use a non-standard name, especially one such as "Central" which in British, Irish, Australian and North American English carries connotations of name, location or ownership that in many cases do not apply to those stations not actually called Central (Koblenz Hauptbahnhof is a notable example). Hauptbahnhof does not mean central station (it means "main station") and is not in any meaningful sense equivalent to the words "Central station" as used in English. The English version of Deutsche Bahn's journey planner does not even recognise "central" as referring to the stations, even if Google searches can sometimes produce translated documents which do use "Foo Central" (some of which do actually refer to the stations; many don't). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wheeltapper (talk • contribs) 21:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. WP:USEENGLISH does not mean that we have to force translate names, or even worse parts of names. There is a large danger that we here actually shape English usage rather than reflect it. That is not our purpose. WP:COMMONNAME should dictate the move back to their previous title. Agathoclea (talk) 07:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

  Please relist as it looks the notifications have not all gone out. Agathoclea (talk) 15:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

  I've now put notifications on all of the remaining articles, but I agree that the discussion should be relisted. Bahnfrend (talk) 16:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. "Hauptbahnhof" is very commonly used by English speakers when referring to German stations, probably considerably more than "central station". -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:31, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support for most reasons mentioned above. In very most cases Hauptbahnhof is not misleading, definitely much less then Central Station. Support also for the reason of moving those articles back to the original title before the undiscussed mass move to Central Station. --Kleeblatt187 (talk) 20:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Questions: Why have the above 14 been selected and not the most important (i.e. Category 1) Hauptbahnhöfe as we discussed? Why have you mentioned Talk:Zürich Hauptbahnhof which is not in Germany, but omitted the move discussions that went in favour of "Central Station" at Talk:Nuremberg Central Station and Talk:Leipzig Central Station? --Bermicourt (talk) 06:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Bermicourt, I don't recall discussing that, it may have something you wanted, but I just picked the first 14 per time order as they were moved - some big, some small. I forgot Nuremberg (which is evidently a special case as the city is an exonym, and User:Agathoclea deliberately said not to include Leipzig - and these were 5:4 and 4:2 in favour of Hauptbahnhof anyway, neither of them did "go in favour" of your view. There was a also a smaller RM which restored a Hauptbahnhof, but I can't find it. Swiss, Austrian and German stations were all affected by the undiscussed moves and all 3 national projects as well as WP Trains and WP Geography have been notified. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I get that. I think there were other RMs, but I also can't find them. Bermicourt (talk) 16:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Found it, it wasn't a Hauptbahnhof, it was Koblenz Stadtmitte. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

For what it is worth, the current issue of Tramways and Urban Transit magazine has an article on the city of Nuremberg which talks about Nürnberg Hauptbahnhof. They seem happy to use the exonym for the city but the real name of the station. Wheeltapper (talk) 21:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

As a point of order, you should list all of the moves under consideration, even if the RM template doesn't allow them. You'd also need to notify the talk pages of all of the articles up for moving. Otherwise, there would be no basis for a decision here to apply to any article other than the fourteen listed. -- tariqabjotu 15:21, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

That is going to be a hell of a job. But okay thanks Tariqabjotu for the heads up. Is there anyone among the others supporting the restores here willing to parcel this up into 4x lots of 30 each? In ictu oculi (talk) 15:32, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Lol. How the heck can we realistically assess all 122 in a wunner anyway?! Not that anyone's even doing that for 14 - who has the time frankly? Kaiserslautern took me about an hour... --Bermicourt (talk) 16:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I would advise other editors not to respond to this kind of post.

User:Wheeltapper User:Bahnfrend User:Mackensen please, you see Tariqabjotu's post above would you be willing to help out with parcelling up the 121 notifications to the other articles below? In ictu oculi (talk) 16:38, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: Or... you can just have four move requests in batches of thirty... The {{move-multi}} template accommodates thirty moves, so I'm not sure why you stopped at fourteen. -- tariqabjotu 20:54, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

My previous experience is that it breaks after 14. Maybe that bug has been fixed. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:23, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd be happy to help, but I'm not sure how to use the template. If I can figure that out, I will help out. Bahnfrend (talk) 09:42, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, no need to use the full template, just copy paste from Talk:Witten Hauptbahnhof to some of the others In ictu oculi (talk) 03:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Notification of Talk page of all moves

Done:

Talk:Witten Hauptbahnhof Talk:Trier Hauptbahnhof Talk:Winterthur Hauptbahnhof Talk:St. Pölten Hauptbahnhof Talk:Düsseldorf Hauptbahnhof Talk:Landau (Pfalz) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Ludwigshafen (Rhein) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Mülheim (Ruhr) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Kempten (Allgäu) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Bingen (Rhein) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Frankfurt (Main) Hauptbahnhof underground Talk:Frankfurt (Main) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Homburg (Saar) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Halle (Saale) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Neustadt (Weinstraße) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Offenbach (Main) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Stolberg (Rheinland) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Münster Hauptbahnhof Talk:Mönchengladbach Hauptbahnhof Talk:Köln Hauptbahnhof Talk:Osnabrück Hauptbahnhof Talk:Saarbrücken Hauptbahnhof Talk:Tübingen Hauptbahnhof Talk:Würzburg Hauptbahnhof Talk:Lünen Hauptbahnhof Talk:Lübeck Hauptbahnhof Talk:Döbeln Hauptbahnhof Talk:Gütersloh Hauptbahnhof Talk:Fürth Hauptbahnhof Talk:Wörgl Hauptbahnhof Talk:Wiener Neustadt Hauptbahnhof Talk:Wien Hauptbahnhof Talk:Wels Hauptbahnhof Talk:Villach Hauptbahnhof Talk:Salzburg Hauptbahnhof Talk:Linz Hauptbahnhof Talk:Leoben Hauptbahnhof Talk:Klagenfurt Hauptbahnhof Talk:Innsbruck Hauptbahnhof Talk:Graz Hauptbahnhof Talk:Koblenz Hauptbahnhof Talk:Oldenburg (Oldenburg) Hauptbahnhof Talk:Lindau Hauptbahnhof Talk:Gevelsberg Hauptbahnhof Talk:Neuss Hauptbahnhof Talk:Wanne-Eickel Hauptbahnhof Talk:Wiesbaden Hauptbahnhof Talk:Wittlich Hauptbahnhof Talk:Wolfsburg Hauptbahnhof Talk:Worms Hauptbahnhof Talk:Wuppertal Hauptbahnhof Talk:Zwickau Hauptbahnhof Talk:Stralsund Hauptbahnhof Talk:Remscheid Hauptbahnhof Talk:Schweinfurt Hauptbahnhof Talk:Schwerin Hauptbahnhof Talk:Hagen Hauptbahnhof Talk:Hof Hauptbahnhof Talk:Solingen Hauptbahnhof Stuttgart Hauptbahnhof Sonneberg Hauptbahnhof Talk:Pforzheim Hauptbahnhof Talk:Neustrelitz Hauptbahnhof Talk:Mannheim Hauptbahnhof Talk:Rheydt Hauptbahnhof Talk:Krefeld Hauptbahnhof Talk:Paderborn Hauptbahnhof Talk:Ulm Hauptbahnhof Talk:Ingolstadt Hauptbahnhof Talk:Oberhausen Hauptbahnhof Talk:Speyer Hauptbahnhof Talk:Recklinghausen Hauptbahnhof Talk:Mainz Hauptbahnhof Talk:Passau Hauptbahnhof Talk:Kiel Hauptbahnhof Talk:Gelsenkirchen Hauptbahnhof Talk:Freudenstadt Hauptbahnhof Talk:Hildesheim Hauptbahnhof Talk:Freiburg Hauptbahnhof Talk:Frankenthal Hauptbahnhof Talk:Essen Hauptbahnhof Talk:Heilbronn Hauptbahnhof Talk:Eschweiler Hauptbahnhof Talk:Erfurt Hauptbahnhof Talk:Emden Hauptbahnhof Talk:Magdeburg Hauptbahnhof Talk:Heidelberg Hauptbahnhof Talk:Hanau Hauptbahnhof Talk:Hamburg Hauptbahnhof Talk:Karlsruhe Hauptbahnhof Talk:Eberswalde Hauptbahnhof Talk:Kassel Hauptbahnhof Talk:Dortmund Hauptbahnhof Talk:Duisburg Hauptbahnhof Talk:Dessau Hauptbahnhof Talk:Aachen Hauptbahnhof Talk:Darmstadt Hauptbahnhof Talk:Chemnitz Hauptbahnhof Talk:Castrop-Rauxel Hauptbahnhof Talk:Bremerhaven Hauptbahnhof Talk:Bremen Hauptbahnhof Talk:Braunschweig Hauptbahnhof Talk:Brandenburg Hauptbahnhof Talk:Bottrop Hauptbahnhof

Bahnfrend (talk) 16:44, 27 August 2013 (UTC)