Talk:Java/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Page one

The following paragraph is correct except for the 85%. "Java is by far the most populous island in Indonesia, with nearly 85% of the overall population of the country residing there [1]. With an area of 126,700 square km, and 124 million inhabitants at 981 people per km² it would, if it were a country, be the second-most densely-populated country of the world after Bangladesh, except for some very small city-states." 124 million is a little more than half of the overall population of the country.

Someone added the phrase "kathleen is a very sexyy girl and i love her in" to the article in the second paragraph

So remove it. You're not blocked. Be bold. ... discospinster _talk 18:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Something's wrong with the statement: "It is the most populous island in the world, and fifth most populous land mass after Eurasia, Africa, North America, and South America (see the list of islands by population)."

It would seem to leave out Australia... I'm no expert on Australia, but I'm pretty sure it's bigger than Java. I checked the included reference of Islands by population and it doesn't mesh with the statement either. I'm starting the talk simply becasue I'm not an expert on this topic or on Java so if people want to understand my upcoming rewrite and it's rationale there's something here. Gabe 02:51, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'm a dummy... I got myself confused becasue the list of islands by population includes Antarctica as a land mass, which kind of boggles the mind, but joins North and South America and Africa and Eurasia. I'm gonna go look at the talk page there to understand what they did and then consider how to reconcile these two articles. Gabe 02:54, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

According to the continent article:

"Because of the perceived cultural differences by Europeans, it is conventional to subdivide Eurasia into Europe and Asia. They are more appropriately called regions, and neither is a geological or geographical continent. In the same manner, historians may subdivide Africa-Eurasia into Eurasia-North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa.

These definitions give the following alternate models:

   * 7 regions: Europe, Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, and Australia.
   * 6 regions: Europe, Asia, Africa, America, Antarctica, and Australia.
   * 5 continents: Eurasia, Africa, America, Antarctica, and Australia.
   * 4 continents: Africa-Eurasia, America, Antarctica, and Australia.

The 7-region model is usually taught in the United States, while the geological 6-continent model is taught in Canada and in East Asia. In Europe and Latin America including the United Kingdom and Mexico, they teach the 6-region model, which is shown in the Olympic Games flag as five rings, excluding Antarctica."

Therefore I've decided to rephrase the article such that it indicates that Java is the most populous non-contiental landmass, and indeed more populous than both Australia and Antarctica and not say anything further on the matter since any statement boils down to what you consider a land mass and the jury seems to be out on that. ;) Gabe 03:10, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What About the Economy of the Island?

• I would have thought that there would have been some mention of the word "coffee", as in "cup of Java". Is this not indeed where the phrase comes from? "Dutch coffee plantations", or something. I'm sure the Dutch didn't come there to surf. (Oct.)

Done, I've added the economy section (Gunkarta (talk) 16:58, 3 June 2010 (UTC)).

Announcing Wikipedia:Indonesia-related topics notice board

After some thought and consideration, I created an Indonesia-related topics notice board, along the same lines as other regional notice boards (such as those for Malaysia and Africa). This was established to coordinate efforts to improve Indonesia-related Wikipedia entries. If you've made contributions to Indonesia-related articles in the past, or would like to, please take some time to visit, introduce yourself, and sign the roster. --Daniel June 30, 2005 18:35 (UTC)

It seems somewhat silly to me to include Antarctica in the following statement "indeed it has a larger population than either the continents of Australia or Antarctica (see the list of islands by population)." Does anyone expect the population of Antarctica to be even close to substantial? Seems odd to use it to compare populations, to say the least. Just my 2 cents.

Proposed page move

A proposal has been made on Talk:Java (disambiguation) for Java (island) to be moved to Java. Please read and comment. –Hajor 15:08, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

A new proposal has been made on Talk:Java for Java (island) to be moved to Java. Please read and comment. Brz7 00:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

population

Surely something too is wrong with the statement "indeed, it has a larger population than either the continents of Australia or Antarctica". Australia has a population of 20 million - not exactly worth comparing with Java's 127 million. And Antarctica? Is this a joke? - Orecalimo

No, I don't think it was supposed to be a joke, but it is a really pointless, pedantic statement, especially to be in the introduction of the article. Thanks for pointing it out. I've rewritten the intro to try to describe (briefly!) why Java is important aside from its large population - there's more to it than that. CDC (talk) 22:08, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi CDC, thanks for the update. I agree that the comparisons were useless and unnecessary. I must object to your use of term "powerful Islamic kingdoms" though. The former Hindu/Buddhist kingdoms converted to Islam only as late as when the colonial powers were arriving in the region, and only when their powers have significantly declined. Hence I think your statement is inaccurate. Majapahit and Sriwijaya did at some point dominate the southeast asia region, but they are Hindu and Buddhist, respectively. Thanks, Julius.kusuma 22:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I was referring more to the Sultanate of Mataram and perhaps Banten - my impression is that both were important political entities for a while before the Europeans showed up on Java, and both were Islamic - maybe I'm wrong. But Majapahit is important - perhaps more important - maybe it should say "powerful Hindu and Islamic kingdoms" or something (is "powerful kingdoms" too generic?) Please do change it to whatever seems right. My knowledge of this early history is kind of fuzzy, so I sometimes have trouble deciding what things are worth emphasising. CDC (talk) 23:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, Mataram dominated Java the island, but was not able to project its powers outside of Java and Madiun. So if we were talking about Jogjakarta I would be comfortable in saying that "Jogjakarta is the site of the (powerful) kingdom of Mataram." Making a similar statement when talking about the island of Java is misleading, I think, because I would be expecting Mataram to project its powers outside of the island it is based on.

The use of "Hindu and Buddhist kingdoms" is also appropriate because even up to today, Indonesians like to refer to Majapahit and Sriwijaya when arguing for the legitimacy of an Indonesian national identity. That is, that there was a time when (arguably) all of Indonesia was under one banner. Julius.kusuma 23:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Java and Madura

Many forget to substract the data from the Madura Island when they show population and area for Java as an island. Political divisions include Madura with the province of East Java, so it makes Java bigger than it is as an island. From [1], I find 126,700 km2 for Java and 5,290 km2 for Madura (together: 132 000 km2). The other weird thing is that for the 2000 population census [2], I am unable to reach as many as 127 million (the number actually shown here) when I add the 6 Javanese provinces. Anyway, GeoHive give 2005 estimates from the 2000 census, and also, we can substract from the data there the population of the 4 kaputapens of Madura, giving finally 124 million for Java Island in 2005. LeQuantum 16:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Java Article is sanitized generic.

In the U.S. we all grew up with a boring history of dates and cameos of Generals, business moguls, and the undeniable grass roots humanitarian folk heroes. This article on Java goes two steps further in politically correct sterility by leaving only the mention of the business influence, and glossing past all other antagonisms and struggles. As in the more immediately urgent reporting in U.S. media about contemporary events in the Balkans which made no sense because of illogical nomenclature (e.g. an ethnic group clashed with a national group etc., as if those are mutually exclusive peopleagories) this Java article is slicker by omission. I imagine that if there is a library in Mr. Rodger's neighborhood, the history books have such ...ah... 'congenial' articles as this one. When reading such type of writing, it is up to the reader to fill in the background information and imbue it with a knowledge of motive and social dynamics because the 'hear-no-evil, speak-no-evil, see-no-evil' global genericists aren't going to make that judgment call, as obvious and true as they may seem to be.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.212.153.105 (talk • contribs) 29 May 2006.

That's as may be, but any perceived 'sanitising' here is not a product of any deliberate exclusion or intentional censorship, but rather and more simply a case of no-one has yet annotated such points to this particular article - all articles here are perpetual drafts, if you like, and the number and variety of topics and articles exceeds that of dedicated editors. Another reason to consider, this particular article is on a piece of geography, and not a state or other social-political entity more amenable to discussion of events of that nature. Other articles, such asIndonesia, History of Indonesia, &c. carry a little more of the stuff you see as missing. And as always, the article is open for you or anyone else to expand or improve, so if you see any deficiencies, you'd be welcome to make a start yourself.--cjllw | TALK 23:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Missing reasons for population density

The article doesn't explain why it is so densely populated. I guess the main cause is a mixture of fertile volcanic soils and plenty of rainfall, but that doesn't fully explain why the rest of Indonesia is so much less densely populated. Please add a full explanation to the article if you can. Thank you. Sumahoy 15:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it would be nice to have some coverage on population dynamics on the world's most populated and most densely populated large island. I also took down a statement in Demographics, which said that the population density (listed as for the year 2010) did not include volcanoes and mountains and uninhabitable regions of the island, as clearly this is not true: 136,563,142/128,297 = ~1064 people/km2. The figure should therefore be greater than 1064 if it did not take into account those regions (I believe I've seen that figure before and it is closer to 1500/km2), but is in the article only 1062 (suggesting a different population estimate at the time). 173.79.52.199 (talk) 14:01, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Revert of rdir to Java

I've reverted the recent change which involved replacing the text of this Java (island) article with a redirect to Java, and the replacement there of its former disambig page format with text on the island taken from this one. Quite possibly there is a case to argue for the island's article having the title Java, with other meanings at Java (disambiguation), but a copy and paste exercise is not the way to go about it. If it is to be retitled, then it should be done by moving the pages, to preserve the respective edit histories and associated talk pages. It should also probably be nominated for moving first via the WP:RM process, to see if there is consensus for such an arrangement. It will have to go through the WP:RM process in any case since it will require administrator action to move the pages (if that is the outcome), as both have non-trivial edit histories.--cjllw | TALK 23:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

A new proposal has been made on Talk:Java for Java (island) to be moved to Java (and Java to be moved to Java (disambiguation)). Please read and comment. Brz7 00:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

java language

it's strange to me that there was a top link to Java (Sun) but not to Java programming language; i suspect the latter is far more popular. i just added the top-link, but i think we should actually remove the link to Java (Sun). Benwing 03:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 23:48, 2 November 2006

Java → Java (island) — Java clearly is a very ambiguous proper noun. I don't believe we should make assumptions as to which is the most popular Java, or the most relevant and thus think that Java should be moved to Java (island) and Java should point to Java (disambiguation). Dreddlox 00:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• NOTE - before you add a comment, stop, think and look above - this has happened before, twice at least, the user here makes no acknowledgement of previous discussions - do you really need to add your bit now?

Reading previous discussions might help you understand the issues and save space and time on this issue SatuSuro 03:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC).

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Comment - we have been through this a few times before, but it has consistantly been rather split, lets give it another go --T-rex 02:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support - Java is too commonly known as too many things. I don't believe the island to hold much notability compared to coffee or the programming language, thus an ambiguation page for Java seems best. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 07:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose

• Notability: Home to 130million people world's most populated island, (on its own it would be the 9th largest country in the world) and it is the economic and political heart of the world's fourth biggest country. Being their home, and ethnic identity, it is very notable to the Javanese and other ethnic groups. There is even a wikipedia Javanese language version in addition to Indonesian [3] Remember, the concept of Java is more than just an island within another country - like say Hawaii (or Alaska, kinda like an island). It is very distinct chracteristc within itself - as do most Indonesian islands. Think of Indonesia more like Europe and Java as a country in Europe, that's how distinct it is.
• I doubt the IT meaning has that deep and broad notability with that many people - i suggest notability is reserved for IT "geeks", not a whole people. Wikiepedia should have be aimed at BROADER audience than just IT geeks. Off the internet, say Java and people almost always think of the island At least they do in Europe, Asia and Australia. Apparently in the US though they think of (Javan) coffee - so I am told. -i really think we should cater for broader audiences, who wants wikipedia just to be tailored for minority die-hard IT techs? See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias#The_origins_of_bias.
• Java island has been populated for thosands of years, and is likely to be so for even longer - how about Java in the IT sense? I think we know that in comparison it is more of a temporary thing.
• Wikipedia Direct links: Java the island has 402 pages linking directly to it and 537 indirectly. Sun's Java (Sun) has on the other hand 107 direct links and 8 indirect.
• Btw, the coffee reference is hilarious - why do you think it is called Java coffee? lol. I dont think it is coincidence that Java is full of coffee plantations. Etymology: Java island came first, after which the coffee was named (first by Javanese "Kopi Jawa", and later by Americans), then i suspect the IT sense takes after coffee. I have only ever heard Americans refer to coffee with the term.
• I will add more if i think of more.
• --Merbabu 07:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. It's inconceivable that a programming language called "California", no matter how popular it became, would ever displace the US State from its primacy in Wikipedia. Java has at least twice the population of California. The fact that lots of poorly educated people have never heard of Java is something Wikipedia should be helping to fix, not to reinforce. -- Danny Yee 08:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Compare python, ruby, and c. Is anyone seriously suggesting that a particular group of snakes, a kind of gemstone, or even a letter of the Roman alphabet is even close in importance to an island with 120 million inhabitants? -- Danny Yee 03:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose of course. I agree with the comments of above. Gryffindor 08:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is getting repetitious - cannot something or somebody put the cat out and leave it out for once and all? SatuSuro 11:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose, cf. previous discussions, Brz7 00:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose When searching for the island of Java one would write "Java", where as when in search of the language Java one would write "Language Java", "Java script" or some other similar qualifier. Additionally Java (Island) doesnt follow any accepted naming conventions currently in use, the more correct naming suggestion would be "Java, Indonesia". Even if one is confused by that fact that Java can have alternative unrelated articles, the first sentence clarifies and links to the DAB and the language. As for the importance the java language like most computer langauges will have life of maybe optomistically another 10 years and then pass back into insignificance, where as Java the place, short of a major catastropic event (even that would warrant the prominant article naming anyway) is still going to be there for thousands of more years. Gnangarra 14:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

  Actually, no. go to any search engine and give it a try. First 20 pages on google give you nothing on the island. Granted this is a meaningless fact that has little to nothing to do with the page move request, but I felt the need to point out that you are baseing your argument on complete lies --T-rex 15:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

  Complete lies? Thus you would be betting the programming language is going to out live the Island in notabilty (going for the moment on the false assumption it is more notable now)? Can I ask, how long does the programming language have?--Merbabu 00:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

  Complete lies as in not true, as for your second point, the programing language will outlast wikipedia --T-rex 00:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

  And the island won't? You know that was not my point. But as you avoided it, may i assume that you agree with it? Hopefully someone else can answer my question on the likely notable lifespan of the programming language.--Merbabu 00:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

  I did not think it was nessiccary to note that the island was unlikly to spontaniously vanish within the near future. I should point out though that the future does not mater, it is only the present that we need to judge, the future can be taken care of in the future --T-rex 03:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

  You accuse me of lies, yet you dont despute anthing that I said, you offer no verifiable source to support your accusations. If you have a constructive POV then present it but please dont use personal attacks to the opinions of myself or others. Gnangarra 04:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

  That was in reference to your comments about people searching --T-rex 04:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose While this may seem an obvious move to someone who has worked with the Java programming language (of which I am one), it doesn't make sense for a general interest encyclopedia. With over 100 million people in Java (part of the 220 million in Indonesia) and, as of 2003, 3 million Java developers world-wide, I think that it's logical to infer that more people primarily associate Java with the island than the programming language. Further, the island has substantial historical claim to primacy, and likely will continue to in the future, when Java goes the way of COBOL. So far as disambiguation goes, I like the link at the top of the page. To me it's immediately obvious how to navigate to the programming language topic. ScottW 14:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong support, in the case of several likely and very common meanings for the same term, the disambiguation page should be at that name. Mercury, for instance, does not point to the Greek god after whom all of the meanings are named. Kusma (討論) 14:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Note that many pages link to Java that intend to link to the programming language. It is trivial to fix all the links if Java is a disambiguation page, but annoying to do so if Java points to one of the specific meanings. Why send people looking for the programming language (very many) through the page about the (completely unrelated) island? That's what disambiguation is for, just as with Georgia, where the non-decision which Georgia is more "important" helps to avoid broken links. Kusma (討論) 14:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    • There are about 500 links to the unqualified name. A 10% random sample showed about 1/3 linking to the programming language and 2/3 to the island. --Polaron | Talk 14:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment That shows a problem with people's linking skills. Maybe they should check what they are linking first - maybe they cannot see the "Preview" button next to the "Save" button. This is an encyclopedia that should focus on a wide readership and reflect the broad realities of the wider world and its historically context, not one that has to be propped up with disability measures for lazy and ignorant editors.--Merbabu 00:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Further comment - my own quick glance at the link page [4] shows that most linked to the IT meaning are article talk pages which as we all know have a much lower level of quality. --Merbabu 00:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
          • Further comment still Ignoring the bad links on talk pages (which is the vast majority) i have now fixed those bad links within articles, there wasn't too many - see my contribs. While i realise that just sticking "Java (programming language)" in place of "Java" is not always completely accurate, no-one can argue that it is not better to at least have the link in the right area. Hoepfully Java programmers are not as careless as some editors have been. ;-) --Merbabu 01:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Many Wikipedia editors are well-versed in computer technology and I expect that people who associate "Java" with the programming language are overrepresented here. --Polaron | Talk 14:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Commnet Although amongst editors it might have a higher proportion of IT "geeks" than the rest of society, as for its readers is Wikipedia intended to have a narrow IT readership or broader focus that reflects the "real world"? I suggest the latter.--Merbabu 00:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support - the island may be the most common use, but it is not signifacntly more important then the other uses, i recal a disambiguation page was chosen to solve a simmilar dilema at Syracuse --T-rex 15:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • How is an island with a population of 120 million not "more significant than the other uses"? For anyone outside IT, this is just a no-brainer, and we're not writing an encyclopedia for the <1% of the population that has anything to do with programming. (I am a system administrator supporting Java server applications myself.) With Syracuse, there were two large cities involved, that's a completely different case. -- Danny Yee 23:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    • first there is way more on that disambig page then just the tech uses. Despite what you have said I did say it is more significant than the other uses, it is not, as I pointed out not signifacntly more important then the other uses. We do have disambig pages on wikipedia for a reason --T-rex 00:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
      • I hardly consider "Java" as coffee "way more". Keep in mind that that is a usage that only seems prevalent within the United States - no one in Australia, for example, will think of coffee when you say "Java". -- Danny Yee 02:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
      • And the programing language is mentioned at the top of Java for a reason too, interestingly though the reverse is not true. --Merbabu 00:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support move to Java, Indonesia. It is not clear that the island is the most common usage. Given that the programming language and the island are likely of equal note, the dab page should be moved here. Vegaswikian 00:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  • How can any programming language be "of equal note" to an island with 120 million inhabitants? I asked above how popular would a programming language called "California" have to be to displace the US state - and the answer is that it simply wouldn't happen. More people probably live in Java than have ever even heard of the other uses of the word. Javanese are probably massively underrepresented among Wikipedia editors, but that's a problem that we need to fix. -- Danny Yee 03:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
    • In line with Danny's comments, can i suggest that some may be confusing notability amongst editors (no doubt a significantly higher proportion of IT-centred people than the wider community) with notability among readers. I think this raises important questions over just who wikipedia as a resource should be directed too. Personally, I think a focus on the broader world, not an IT-focussed resource, is far more important - it's what brings me to wikipedia anyway. Perhaps more of an effort towards a worldwide view is needed. --Merbabu 04:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
      • I believe that those close to Indonesia will think of the island. The farther away you go, the more likely another use will prevail. Yes, the programming language might be considered geeky, but many users now about it because they run into it when they need to get some programs to run. Of course we should then add in the use of Java for coffee. And for some people it may only mean Java, South Dakota. So while it is a large island, the question is the primary use. It is very unclear here so the dab should prevail. Vegaswikian 00:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Herein lies the contention while there are more people that identify Java the island, In fact over half the worlds population lives closer to Java than to America. The arguements being presented for the move are only enforcing the systemic bias, in the over all population the Island Java is significantly more notiable but within the narrow field of WP editors there is a disproportionate number of people who see the language as being equally or more significant because they obtain financial reward from it. Gnangarra 00:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
          • Could Java language prominance over the Island, really be an endourse of Sun Microsystems product by Wikipedia. Gnangarra 01:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
            • Vegaswikian, perhaps what you mean is, as you get closer to the US, Java (Indonesia) is less well know (like anything else non-US) It is not about usage - it is about notability. As you say, this would make a town of 197 people who relatively no one has heard of, be of equal note to what would be in its own right the 9th largest country in the world - we both know this is rubbish. Perhaps the island is not well known in the US but it certainly is throughout east Asia (which is many times bigger than USA), and also in Australia and Europe. But the fact that it is not well known in the US is no reason for wikipedia to reflect such ignorance (the Americans do many things exceptionally well - knowledge of the outside world is not one of them). But, even then, it is not about how well known it is. It is about significance. You say "many users running into it (Java Prog Language) when they need to some programs to run" - this is hardly significant in comparison to what is not just an island which is the political and economic heart of the world's 4th largest nation. It's not just another state say in the US or AUstralian meaning of the term, but as is the case in Indonesia, it is ethnically, historically and economically very different to its neighbouring states - indeed it is like another country. Rather than a country and a state, think of Indonesia like the European Union, and Java is like a country within that. It's is also an identity. As for much of Indonesia (and Europe) people are prone to identify as Javanese before they identify as Indonesian.

There is already a disambig page listing all your concerns which is linked from the very top of the Java page. The programming language even gets its own mention and link from the top there too. Given the overwhelming higher level of significance of the island historically, economically, geographically this is more than fair covereage. Maybe you should check out Sydney, python, ruby, c and Bengal. They all have DAB pages - but not directs. --Merbabu 01:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - I cannot emphisize more on this. Basically people have expressed the same opinion as mine, that the island of Java is far more popular and important, thus cannot be treated like a programming language. People who support the idea might want to read the article carefully first, and understand the importance of the island. Imoeng 07:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose per User talk:Polaron and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. Lethiere 08:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Very strong oppose - I don't believe the people who requested the move. This is not a Programming Language Encyclopaedia!! — Indon (reply) — 10:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. Wikipedia is not a geek-only encyclopedia. Our international scope and goals should affect our thoughts about notability and importance, not the other way round. — mark ✎ 12:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  • This has to do with more than just notability and importance. The element Mercury is a lot more important than the Roman god or the planet, but it still doesn't get to occupy the spot Mercury alone. Georgia (country) is a country, but does not get to occupy the spot Georgia because the (less important, less notable) US state of Georgia (U.S. state) exists and is another likely search and link target. Kusma (討論) 13:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
    • I think python, ruby, c and Bengal are better comparisons here. -- Danny Yee 13:14, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
      • If "Georgia" was a state not in the USA but in say Australia (or Indonesia for that matter), I would bet my house that "Georgia" would link direct to the country. Just because Wikipedia handles the name "Georgia" incorrectly, does not mean that it should also do the same for "Java". There are some editors out there who don't want wikipedia to have just an American and IT focus to it. --Merbabu 13:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Major stupidity. BTW this page was moved here quite rightly in a vote a few months ago. Jooler 14:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. There is simply no comparing the importance of a massively populated landmass to something as ephemeral as a programming language. Robotman1974 03:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose, per previous RM attempts.--cjllw | TALK 06:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Do what? Java is coffee. —  AjaxSmack  08:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • lol - people need to release that the introduction of widespread and vast coffee plantations on Java by the Javanese and the colonial Dutch before them, were simply a cynical marketing attempt to cash in on the American word for coffee. ;-) --Merbabu 08:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • :-) Though I thank for your opposition, but the reason makes me smile. — Indon (reply) — 09:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Bolivian Unicyclist 12:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Markussep 16:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Take a look at Spain, Wales, Scotland, Bali, Brazil, Peru, Hawaii, Holland for just a few examples of coutries where the main page is about the country with a link at the top to the disambiguation page. We don't make exceptions for Bali programming language and Brazil (operating system), nor should we for Java (programming language). Brazil Rendering System was used on films which have been seen by tens (hundreds?) of millions (eg, Star Wars III) but we still make Brazil's country page the main page because that's what all the others are named after.--Bwmodular 09:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - Wikipedians are generally just a little biased toward IT, aren't we, folks? The other uses of "Java" are ones that specifically pertain to computer programmers and coffee afficianados. There is a huge difference in the scope of notability between an island of 124 million people and a programming language and coffee variety. Feeeshboy 00:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - I'm pretty sure that if I went out into the street here (Wales) and asked random passers-by "What is Java?", at least 9 out of 10 would reply "an island". If somebody said "a programming language", I would know I'd found a geek.Rhion 09:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - Well, I was born in Java and have known the word "Java" since 27 years ago before what it's called Java Programming Language coming out in... errr dunno 1998 mebbe... 203.126.153.214 18:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

• Please see discussion for two previous requested moves at Talk:Java (disambiguation). older ≠ wiser 01:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• There has been alot of discussion on this preiviously as older ≠ wiser mentions. I seriously doubt that a new consensus can be formed and that it can be clear, given the history. Eluchil404 06:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• I've just seen that the most recent debate over this was in June. Are there not policies about how often it happens? If one "side" doesn't get their way, what is stopping them from re-proposing say next week? --Merbabu 08:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not aware of any policy or guide-line with respect to move requests. As with all processes thw wikipedia community has a small tolerance for sequential requests as they are seen as attempts to game to system. If less than a few months have passed I would expect many people to oppose the proposal on procedural grounds as too soon regardless of the merits. Under that understanding this proposal is not invalid on its face, but I do question its chances of succeeding given the (fairly) recent consensus in the opposite direction. Eluchil404 11:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• There should be a box at the tope of the talk page with a 'Danger' or 'Warning' sign that the whole process of trying to impose narrow world views (in the case of those who havent any sense of notability of the island) should be dissalowed from proposing yet another time wasting debate on the disambig or shifting issue. Merbabu's point will be completely and utterly lost unless someone with a good knowledge of wikipedia mechanics finds the right policy page where this gets nailed for once and for all, and dosnt get put up by another individual with limited geographic knowledge beyond their own back yard next week SatuSuro 11:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

  'Warning', someone may disagree with SatuSuro's views. Any such behavior could ruin wikipedia, and quite possibly bring on the end of the world --T-rex 15:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Hey someone with a sense of humour with a PA at the same time! SatuSuro 10:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• I believe this is the malicious action of a troll, sockpuppet or a previously blocked person for their understanding of wikipedia policy, formatting enable a person with no previous edit history (User contribs) to create this section and nominate it at Wikipedia:Requested moves within a 3 minute time period. in the 6 hours sinced the account was created no other edits have occured. Gnangarra 14:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Just a comment: if there are more programmers who use the language every day than residents of the island, would that support a change? What's the test here? It seems to me to be very difficult to tell which is more common usage, but I don't accept that the argument that people live there necessarily and absolutley grants one usage primacy over another. If the population were not 120 million but, say, 10 thousand, would that change things? Croctotheface 19:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• response what would happen if the language was call Guam Gnangarra 00:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• If it were even close, I would support the move. There is no hard and fast rule here. If something is the most common use BY FAR, then it should not need parenthetical treatment. If it's unclear, then disambig is needed, but I don't see how anyone can argue that the number of java programmers or the importance of java coffee compares at all with the island and its population. Feeeshboy 00:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Collab starts now...

(Please add tasks, or even better, do one!)

To Do:

• A general one: expand each section (except maybe History). Sure, this should be a summary article, but currently, it is not much more than a list. Particularly demographics, language, and admin divisions.--Merbabu 08:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Copy edit History Section - does it give balanced attention to all areas? --Merbabu 08:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• For starters, how about filling in the gap between Homo Erectus and the Hindu Kingdoms. Is there any notable info on ancient human inhabitants (before 800 BC)? Feeeshboy 00:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• Expand history - consider a History of Java article to allow more detail

Comment: although i agree in principal, the History section is probably the best section in the whole article. Can i suggest it is a lower priority for more detail? Although, of course we have to assess the quality, refs, etc. --Merbabu 08:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Lead - needs to be expanded see WP:LEAD
• References - lack of references for current information, remember to include references for all new material.
• Ethnic groups - for FA status, this section needs to be rewritten as a paragraph instead of a list, with a bit of information on each group. Cirebonese links to a stub on the language, nor the Cirebonese as an ethnic group.Rhion 13:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Link to pdf file for Reference number 1 is not correct. That link goes to a page which directs the user to another URL, ie, http://www.bps.go.id Visiting that page, many pdf links are encountered but it's all in Indonesian language. Requires the assistance of someone who can read that language, find the correct portion of the correct pdf (if it is on that page) and accordingly modify the reference link in the main Wikipedia page. 138.77.2.133 (talk) 13:57, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Religion

What is the source of the number for religion? Is it accurate? Especially the numbers of Kejawen and Abangan Javanese are doubtfull. Meursault2004 13:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

dialects or languages?

Ethnologue lists Osing, Tengger, etc as languages rather than dialects. Of Tengger, for example, it says "May be marginally intelligible with Javanese", while Kangean is "Barely intelligible with East Madura. A separate language". So I think we should stick with calling them languages, at least if we're going to cite Ethnologue as the source. -- Danny Yee 13:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a neverending story. I should rather say dialects instead of languages because those languages are mutually intelligible with the standard language whatever Ethnologue says. Or we can also put in footnotes. For example, Betawi language is not mutually intelligible with Malay spoken in Ambon. Yet both are dialects and not languages of Malay. Meursault2004 15:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep, the language/dialect division is pretty arbitrary. And the sociolinguistic pressures are I assume all in favour of the standard forms - though maybe less so than in similar situations elsewhere, since Indonesian is the state privileged language instead. I'll add something to the footnote maybe. -- Danny Yee 22:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

What do you guys think of the new infobox? Please tell me if you want more entries (and tell me the extra entries as well :P). Cheers -- Imoeng 22:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool! We have standardize infobox for island. Does it also applies for islands? Hmm.. I haven't think any missing info for an island, but I'll let you know when I get it. ;-) — Indon (reply) — 09:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hehe, is that "cool" means you like it? Well, I was thinking about groups of islands too, like Pulau Seribu, maybe I'll think about that later. Okay, please do let me know. Cheers -- Imoeng 10:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Sects?

Kejawen groups or Mystical groups (even religious groups) would be a more appropriate term in the religion section - than the word sect - which from common usage in some parrt of the english speaking world - has grown a negative connotation. Anyone else on this one? SatuSuro 11:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Sect proabably is the correct term, but i agree it has negative connotations. In reality, it really is a very respectable thing but "sect" doesn't sound much better than "cult". lol - aren't i helpful? --Merbabu 12:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that "sect" is not ideal here (academic studies tend to use it, but there aren't the same negative connotations there). On the other hand, "group" is a little too vague. Definitely not "cult"! -- Danny Yee 12:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the 45 constitution wording about beliefs that exist outside the framework of the established named major religions might be a clue - the Bantul Sospol office in 96 had a whole wall full of groups listed! There might be in some cases very localised groups - that just exist in one province - or even district - maybe mystical organisation? 'Cult and sect' are simply not on - so if group or organisation are too nebulous - anyone sat in on a subud/sumarah session ever? they might have terminology that is useful.... Cult and sect are not relevant to the smaller groupings or loose affiliations that either have existed - or still do - so for accuracy we need a document from one of the groups about their permissions/permits/etc from the authorities perhaps SatuSuro 13:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I did write this religious sects, literally taken from the source, but I'm not going to disagree if you want to change it. I think writting it as "religious belief" is a good one. BTW, I like your "mystical group" :-). — Indon (reply) — 13:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Banner

I removed the "Article Indonesian collaboration" banner from the article. Generally, as I understand, messages to editors shouldn't go on articles, but instead stay on the talk page. Alex Dodge 07:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I reverted your change. Please point to a policy which confirms this is the case. If you take a look at the other collaborations (Template:Announcements/Current_collaborations) I don't see a consus (Caniago 08:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC))

I think the collab needs to go to another aritlce. I wanted to message each editor individually to get there opinion on next collab but can't do it til next week - going on holidays.--Merbabu 12:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Claim

About Indonesian as the primary language of Java (which I reverted) - belongs on the Javanese Language page however I contest such a claim - would like other eds to offer their comments on this. SatuSuro 03:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Cleaning up history section

This article is about the island of Java, not about history of Indonesia nor Javanese people. Thus I believe the History section should be trimmed to only mention important facts and events that relate to the island. — Indon (reply) — 19:14, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Be bold! --Merbabu 05:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm bold (literaly) :-), I'll do that. — Indon (reply) — 08:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The coffee story

Among many history of Java, yes there is a coffee story, but there are other notable plantations such as sugar and tea. How do we fit this paragraph?

The Dutch began cultivation of coffee trees on Java (part of the Dutch East Indies) in the 17th century and it has been exported globally since. The coffee agricultural systems found on Java have changed considerably over time. A rust plague in the late 1880s killed off much of the plantation stocks in Sukabumi, before spreading to Central Java and parts of East Java. The Dutch responded by replacing the Arabica firstly with Liberica (a tough, but somewhat unpalatable coffee) and later with Robusta. Today Java's old colonial era plantations provide just a fraction of the coffee grown on the island.

I think the history section can grow again to unnecessary details if we keep adding this. I suggest to limit the story to significant historical events with respect to the whole island. The above paragraph, I think, is best suited to perhaps Agriculture in Indonesia article ? (we don't have such article, do we?) — Indon (reply) — 07:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, maybe it can be carefully merged into Indonesian coffee. --Merbabu 07:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. You know a lot of Indonesian articles. :-) — Indon (reply) — 07:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I have 3,700 articles on my watchlist - they are mostly Indonesian ones. :) --Merbabu 07:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry. I'm trying to reduce your watchlist if I finish completing Wikipedia:WikiProject Indonesia/Monitoring :-) — Indon (reply) — 08:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Done. Merged to Indonesian coffee. — Indon (reply) — 07:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Deja vu

The other uses thingo at start of article is getting too heavy again - propose to put for all other uses to disambig, otherwise we are back to previous issues about the subject which have been recycled at this article annually and are really a waste of space - the island comes first - all other uses are at dismbig - surely that is clear and clean? Anyone want to comment? SatuSuro 00:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Jawa vs Java vs Yava?

Which is the correct pronunciation in Bahasa Indonesia:

• IPA /java/ (English "yava")
• IPA /jawa/ (English "yawa")
• IPA /dʒava/ (English "java")
• IPA /dʒawa/ (English "jawa")

And then what is the story with the spelling?

The article currently states "Java (Indonesian: Jawa)".

This is very confusing taking into account the old Dutch spelling system and new spelling system.

What does the letter "J" represent here? What does the letter "w" represent here?

Why did the Dutch write "Java" rather than "Jawa" (if in fact /jawa/ is the pronunciation)?

If the pronunciation is in fact /jawa/, why has the spelling only been half-updated to "Jawa" -- rather than "Yawa"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.153.186 (talk) 10:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

In Indonesian it is "Jawa," IPA /dʒawa/ (j for Jimmy, a as in pasta or father, w as in wool). That's consistent with the new spelling system. The old spelling was Djawa. I don't know the hows or whys of the Dutch pronunciation, but I'd be curious to know too. --Chriswaterguy talk 02:14, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, "Jawa" as in the little fellas from Tatooine. Also, incidently it is spelt "Jowo" in Javanese and pronounced "Jaw-war" (as in jaw bone, and WW2). --Merbabu (talk) 07:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you thank you! Why isn't this in the article?? Here in the Netherlands, it's spoken "Yava" for the island, the programming language, and rarely the coffee (koffie isn't really ever called Java over here tho). I've always wondered if the spelling affected the Dutch pronounciation or the other way around. Is it a good idea to add one of those IPA pronounciation tag thingies right after the title name in the first line?

@Chriswaterguy, the letter J is a "yuh" sound in Dutch, maybe for the same reasons it's a "huh" in Spanish.  : ) 217.166.94.1 (talk) 08:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Ethnic group

Tenggerese, Badui, Osing, Bantenese, and Cirebonese are sub-groups of Javanese and Sundanese. I don't think it is necessary to name them apart. Otherwise we can add the name of every other subgroups as well like Banyumasan, Yogyakartanese, Solonese, Surabayan etc. Meursault2004 (talk) 09:49, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It needs a section about native plants and animals

Java needs a section about native plants and animals. Gatorgirl7563 (talk) 18:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Local usage of 'Java'

I think the article should include a small section on the local usage of the word/term. People in Indonesia usually say 'Java' (Jawa) to refer to the Javanese parts of the island like Central Java and Eastern Java and say 'the Java island' (pulau Jawa) to refer to the whole island. People refer to Western Java as Sunda and not Java, even though it's still on the Java island. For example, when the Javanese in Jakarta want to go back to their village in Central Java for holiday, they say they "want to return to Java" even though they're just moving east on the very same island. (This is not always the case though, because Indonesians also say "Java and Sumatra" which from the context clearly refers to geographical areas, the two islands, and not to cultural spheres, but when referring to geography the word 'island' must almost always come with the word "Java".) I bring this up because it didn't feel right when I first read the title of the article 'Java' and then read later on things about Sunda. It's true that this is just a matter of different usage of the term in the two languages, English and Indonesian. I don't think there should be two separate articles on 'Java' and on 'the Java island' because there's not much to it, but this is how the Javanese people and others nearby view it and speak about it. So I think it deserves a tiny section/subsection. How bout it?:) (I consulted the Indonesian article, but the article seemed abandoned. And the discussion area only contains two sentences.) Senantiasa (talk) 18:58, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Flora and Fauna?

Why doesn't this article have anything on the wildlife? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.194.192.100 (talk) 00:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Done! on natural environment section. Gunkarta (talk) 09:54, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Java

Java is an object oriented computer language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.145.89.204 (talk) 21:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

That's correct. And the island, which if it was a country would have the 8th biggest population in the world, was named after this computer language. The fact that historically the island has been one of the world's major sources of coffee, and the symbol for the programming language is a cup of coffee, is pure coincidence only. --Merbabu (talk) 08:22, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

That's really messed up. The computer language is less than two decades old. This island is centuries, if not millennia, old. The computer language was named after Javanese coffee, which in turn was named after this island. Are you being sarcastic? JIP | Talk 08:25, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

No, the programming language is by far the most common use of the term. "A cup of Java" came about as an expression for coffee after all the programmers were doing all-nighters by drinking coffee. Anyway, almost no-one's really heard of the island. Bali and Fiji are the only two Indonesian islands that are really known internationally. --Merbabu (talk) 08:33, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Are you kidding? Fiji is in the Pacific, far far far away from Indonesia. Almost no-one really heard of the island??? How strange that someone never heard about most populous island in the earth? Just wondering :) *Annas* (talk) 06:46, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Let me sum it up, in late 19th to early 20th century coffee plantation was widespread in Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia) Priangan highland and other parts of Java. Yes, coffee is not a native plant of Java, it was introduced from Yaman coffee that traced its origin to Ethiopia. However the colonial Dutch Indies has successfully marketed Java coffee internationally that people in United States still refer "a cup of coffee" as "a cup of Java" (regardless the origin of the coffee seed). More than a half of century later, computer programers often stay up late to do their programming project with help of coffee. So the name "Java" pop their mind first on naming the computer programming language. So there you have it, the link is Java Coffee.Gunkarta (talk) 15:39, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

FYI, Java is a well known name since ancient times. Even the Jawi script gave hint the name 'Java', although this arabic script uses to write Malay language is prevalent in Malay peninsula and Sumatra, although recognized in Java but not as widespread because the competition with Javanese script. This was because early Arab geographers simply refer the maritime Southeast Asia (Sumatra, Malay Peninsula, Java, and Borneo) as "Jawi", partly because it refer to the early contact between Arab explorer and ancient Southeast Asian archipelago was took place during Srivijaya period when the Sailendra centered in Java took control of Java, Sumatra, and Malay Peninsula. It also mentioned as semi-mythical kingdom of Javaka. During my visit to Cambodia, they even refer the island as 'Chveah' and have contact since ancient times.Gunkarta (talk) 15:51, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

He he. You know I have more edits on this article than any other editor? And 47 edits on this very talk page. --Merbabu (talk) 22:01, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

With Starbuck, many kinds of Indonesian coffee became international coffee drinks, however maybe it mixed. Beside Java coffee, there are Toba coffee, Toraja Coffee, Timor coffee and so on. Indonesia has 17,000 islands and have different soil, so there are tens kinds of Indonesian coffee. It same as wine from champagne, bordeaux and so on. Java computer language logo is same case with Apple computer logo. When have no money in the beginning, founder of Apple computer are only eat apple for their lunch.Gsarwa (talk) 06:15, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Java instead of Java

I counted 48 incoming links to Java that were really about Java, and fixed them. The vast majority are about the island, though. JIP | Talk 08:18, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Nice work. --Merbabu (talk) 08:24, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Palm Oil Plantations

I see that absolutely nowhere on this article, or this text page, the mention of the cruel, greed-powered, environment-crippling business of the palm oil industry. You may be keeping it wrapped up with 'agriculture', but I find that's just not good enough. You label all the good things about Indonesia, but you left out most the main bits. I see you have the extinction and extreme endangerment of the wildlife, but we all know hunting wouldn't extinct an enitre species unless it was about a hundred people hunting them every day, for the period of probably three months. And if I'm not mistaken, tea, sugar, or rice didn't make enough money as the illegal, corrupt, and money-runned palm oil plantations. I say we need to put this up, and show the horrible, realistic truth about the destruction of this once giant, green rainforests, the slayings of native and exclusive animals, thus driving them to extinction, and the businesses with the government behind them, all in on this pathetic show of money over life. And in all realism and seriousness, but meaning no intentional offence, I say Wikipedia may be scared of the Indonesian Government's power if they happen to label such inferiorities. But, I am only presuming. This is probably not the case. --JezzDawga (talk) 09:20, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

EDIT: I also think that, although a major factor in deforestation and endangering animals, the human population wasn't the main reason for 1.4 million hectares of it. --JezzDawga (talk) 09:30, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Requested Move 3

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 11:38, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

---

Java → ? – While looking at trending articles on the English Wikipedia I noticed that the island of Java tops the list. This isn't the first time I've noticed something like this. You can see the list here. At over 8.5 million views, it far exceeds most articles. If you look down the list to #4, you see that it's Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP).

Is it possible that millions of people are being directed to the wrong article and that what they are really looking for is Java (programming language), which is why it's not surprising that HTTP is #4 on the list.

Although the island of Java has a large population, it is not an English speaking country. Regarding potential English speaking tourists searching for this location, the Java article only mentions the word tourism once so I'm not sure how substantial that industry is. But that still wouldn't explain why that one article would far outweigh any other potential tourist destination with an article on the English Wikipedia. Where are the searches for Java originating from? Please offer your feedback. Thanks. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 01:53, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose It has been discussed before. The main argument is that an island that is home to 120million people is the prime topic vs a computer language who's name is based on a nickname for coffee in turn also derived from the island. -- Merbabu (talk) 01:59, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Object. Please look at the history of this article carefully and the proposals in the past (in this talk page above here) - this move suggestion to  ? is misguided. A more concrete suggestion would have been more useful, specially if you dont know much about Java the place. The historical precedent before young users of the internet being totally geographically and historically challenged who dont realise there is an island of millions of people with that name, maybe it might educate them to see there is an island of millions of people there... If a hat note is not enough, I object to further playing with the term and the structure of redirects and terms simply to appease people with very geographically limited understanding of the world. The tourism industry is much bigger than most people realise, and by chance a large amount people do speak english there. As Merbabu has stated - the use of the term Java for things that are not the island are all derivative - and they should be treated accordingly - the primacy goes to the place, not the things that catch the name later. satusuro 02:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Our main concern should be accurately directing people to the article they are searching for, which at this point we are unsure of. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 02:15, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Read this talk page in full then get back to here - you are not coming up with anything new that hasnt been hashed through already and you have no concrete proposal either.

The issue raised by Merbabu in this round of the endless toing and froing is well worth considering - the prime ur original subject is the island. when all else follows, wp en is not designed for creating easy links for uncertainty satusuro 02:18, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Please watch your etiquette and preview your comments. In the meantime, maybe you can offer a solution to the potentially serious problem of millions of people being directed to the wrong article. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 02:39, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Etiquette? You are recycling something that has been done before, ie you are rehashing something, I think you should apologise for potentially wasting other peoples time. Your claim - to change to ? holds no real proof. You are not taking into consideration of this talk page, or the precedence or primacy of the word java. The solution is here on this page. Look at it above in green tint. satusuro 02:45, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

There was no solution above because no one actually researched the problem (i.e. Where are the searches originating from? Are people actually searching for the island of Java? etc.) Without proper research into the matter we don't have the necessary information to form a valid conclusion, period. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 03:02, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose move - "maybe you can offer a solution to the potentially serious problem of millions of people being directed to the wrong article." How about a clickable hat note at the very, very top of the article in big, italic text? Oh, wait - it's already there. Moving on... VQuakr (talk) 02:47, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment - I think Wikipedia can do better than sending millions of people to potentially the wrong article. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 03:02, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

If they arrived here due to a wrong internal link, fix the link. If they arrived via Google or other search engine, then both pages would have been in their search results. The sad, lost souls that arrived here due to a truncated search string in Wikipedia's search box can click one time to get to their final destination. This really is not a big deal, as everyone seems to realize except yourself. Time to drop the stick. VQuakr (talk) 05:41, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose, Java (the island) is the world's most populous island, with a population of over 130 million people. Java (the programming language) is something usually only of interest to computer experts. It is for such situations that hatnotes were invented. The 'problem' of people being directed to the wrong article is best solved by people taking more care when linking to the article. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:29, 19 January 2014 (UTC).

• Strongly oppose move - "Is it possible that millions of people are being directed to the wrong article" simply isn't good enough. 120 million people live on an island that gave its name to the coffee that gave its name to the programming language. I agree that the sensible way forward is a hat note. Davidelit (Talk) 03:42, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• oppose Java (programming language) viewed 84,000 times[5], Java (software platform) viewed 17,000 times[6] and this article 4.8m times[7] this month, if people were landing at the wrong page you would expect that the right page would offer a statistically significant proportion of the hits because people would flow through to what they wanted through the hat note thats isnt being born out. If one was to look at the stats you see an almost consistant number every day this month with that kind of volume in such a short period its strikes me as being some kind of automated agent(bot) thats hitting this page which is causing the anomaly. Using just the landing statistic to this page and comparing it to another page which someone wouldnt directly end up at if searching to the term, if fact it'd require them to pass thru one of the pages Ive already added the stats for neither of these have the traffic volumes to correlate with your conclusion Gnangarra 04:21, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• oppose I object to the statement that the programming language/emulation environment is the most likely topic, since the most common usage in the real world is coffee -- 70.50.148.122 (talk) 04:30, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose and call for debate closure per the above and SNOW. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 05:07, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Wikipedia is an encylopedia and providing education is the project's role. Telling people that there is something called "Java" that's a little more important than some bug-ridden malware is a useful service. Johnuniq (talk) 05:17, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
  • In that case you might want to use the encyclopedia to educate yourself about the difference between the proposed move target and Oracle's Java browser plugin. —Psychonaut (talk) 21:15, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - Java the island is a much more encyclopedic and significant topic than the programming language. Or should we just redirect this to "coffee"? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:44, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support: there's another, longer list of often-requested articles at WP:5000, also based on the WMF's logs. On that list, Java also ranks second, but Java (programming language) ranks 1693rd. Most likely, the requests for Java are mainly automated: look at the graph on stats.grok.se [8] and note the stepwise nature of it: requests went from ~13-21,000/day in October and the first half of November, to ~131-146,000 through 2 December, and has been in the 264-311,000 range since then (the apparent lack of traffic at the beginning of this year is a glitch).

The recent traffic to the Indonesia article (#79 on WP:5000) also appears to be mainly automated; I posted about it at User_talk:West.andrew.g/Popular_pages/Archive_2#similar_graphs.

Two years ago, Java (programming language) had ~196,000 requests, Java (software platform) had ~25,000, Java had ~68,000, Jakarta had ~87,000 and Indonesia had ~335,000. Those graphs all look fairly natural to me. That does look like an indication that the place name may not be the primary topic. Most of the on-wiki links to Java, with a few exceptions such as XPL, FFmpeg, Embarcadero Delphi, High-level architecture (simulation), and Return statement, refer to the island. Java has between 4500 and 5000 pages linking to it, whereas Java (programming language) has between 10,500 and 11,000 links. I didn't bother counting those to the other computer article. I did a Google Books search for "Java" (while not logged into a Google account) and of the first 50 results, 45 were about the computer language and 5 were about the place. I also searched with http://news.google.com/newspapers ; the first few results there were not so heavily weighted toward the language, but the island was not the most common use of the term. I searched with http://search.yahoo.com and the results were heavily weighted toward the language. The Britannica [9] uses the titles "Java (island, Indonesia)", "Java (computer programming language)" and "Java (British ship)".

In spite of its size, population, proximity to Australia, and brief occupation by the British, I see evidence that the island of Java is not the primary topic in English for the name "Java". In spite of the large number of links pointing here, I think it would be best to have "Java" again go to a disambiguation page. —rybec 07:31, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Ther are many smaller points which are questionable by perspective I believe, but thanks for providing the links and the effort into the research for the information anyways.

It hardly helps the current consensus that has developed here, and simply muddies the water - this is not specifically the first time the name has been delegated to the dismbiguation format (see higher up the talk page).

If the primary topic issue is really going to start hitting the fan, then please note that arguments about such issues usually end up with blood on the floor, and also people fall into the scope of WP:ARBCOM territory - and for any admins watching this talk page, please be very careful where you step - this is despite being at a SNOW level before Rybec turned up, is now somewhat tricky territory, I strongly suggest that great care is taken by all participants in this conversation, on the example of previous primary topic debates.

To have to go through all this because there is a suspicion of automated traffic is something that really requires something well away from this talk page and to somewhere well clear of this particular topic. satusuro 07:49, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Profoundly Oppose Java as an island holds more scientific value than those of programming language. Why don't we took the common majority human race's perspective instead of handful computer savvy programmers' one. Island of Java has been around since sometime in the early Cenozoic era around 63 million years ago, and been inhabited by hominids since 1.5 million years ago. Not to mention as the world's most populated island, home of 138 million people (including me). While Java (programming language) has been around since when? 1995? Do the math. As a wikipedian walking on Java's soil, it has everything to do with me, and yes, I'm not really familiar with Java (programming language) nor Javascript. This thing would not be a Java's problem if only the creator of the programming language named it after.., lets say 'orange juice'?Gunkarta (talk) 10:09, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Twelfth oppose - normally I wouldn't count, but the mess above - mainly by the nominator - makes the WP:SNOW result on the first day of listing not easy to see. Would strongly advise Somedifferentstuff to not make further comment, but read and understand the reasoning concerning WP:PRIMARYTOPIC at Talk:Apple archives. Thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:43, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

The voting is taking place in the above section of this discussion and I'd highly encourage you to take a look at this talk page section. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 13:58, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Most decisions on wikipedia are arrived at by consensus and a closing non involved person appraising the arguments usually by reading all that has gone one and gleaning the sense of what is going on, with voting as a low level part of the decision, WP:SHOUTING in the form of bolding simply confuses the issue. I am sure the significant number of admins who have voted above agree with that

You have been asked and advised repeatedly to drop the gun, well worth doing so before it causes you a calamity. Take care satusuro 14:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

If this discussion has now come to a natural end then it shall be closed. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 14:16, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Getting my Oppose in before things close, and I think it has reached the closing point now. Peridon (talk) 15:50, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Like the Google Books search results, Google Scholar's results are skewed very heavily toward the language. [10] —rybec 21:26, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Please, get up from your couch, change from your pyjamas, and go outside into the real world. —  AjaxSmack  00:40, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that these are actually people hitting the article and not bots? Somedifferentstuff (talk) 03:53, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

I have no evidence of anything (and I don't have any idea what you're talking about). I have judgment. Read User:Gunkarta's comment above for detail. —  AjaxSmack  04:00, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment - I think AjaxSmack nails it with the word "judgement". Even if the proposer provided convincing traffic figures (he/she hasn't), it still makes no sense for Wikipedia, to list is as more significant. Last time I looked wikipedia not aimed at largely US-based IT nerds, but at a broad international audience. To list a computer language, which I understand hasn't been around for 2 decades, as more significant because it might have more page hits, and trumps an island that would be the world's eight most populous country, and is the economic, political, historical, cultural heart of the world's 4th largest nation defies any good, um, judgement. They don't come close to comparison. --Merbabu (talk) 07:56, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

(edit conflict)

The move proposal, although motivated by what I consider misleading data, addresses one of the two aspects of the notion of a primary topic:

A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.

The other component is:

A topic is primary for a term, with respect to long-term significance, if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.

Regarding usage, the disambiguation guideline suggests looking at

• Incoming wikilinks from Special:WhatLinksHere
• Wikipedia article traffic statistics or Wiki ViewStats traffic statistics
• Usage in English reliable sources demonstrated with Google web, news, scholar, or book searches (NOTE: adding &pws=0 to the Google search string eliminates personal search bias)

In the current move discussion, the OP and Gnangarra wrote about the traffic statistics, without mentioning the unusual surge; among the comments I saw when I arrived and right after composing my own comment, no one had remarked upon the incoming wiki-links nor posted search results. The discussion of the usage seemed incomplete.

The other aspect to a primary topic is long-term significance. Java as a place unquestionably has a great deal of that. However, I do see a fair bit of long-term significance to the programming language as well: the Java_(software_platform) article tells us that "Java runs on more than 850 million personal computers worldwide, and on billions of devices worldwide, including mobile and TV devices." and the other article tells us it was released in 1995.

Indonesia was for a long time colonised by the Dutch, so I imagine that the island may hold more significance for Dutch-speaking people than it does for the English-speaking world. Yet on the Dutch Wikipedia, "Java" is currently a disambiguation page, and the article about the place is titled Java (eiland). I suppose the disambiguation practices are different on that Wikipedia; I would expect that their choice of title was made for a practical reason, not as an attempt to belittle Indonesia. —rybec 10:14, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

please reread my comment, I specifically said ...that kind of volume in such a short period its strikes me as being some kind of automated agent(bot) thats hitting this page which is causing the anomaly... I also pointed out that the hits to the other Java pages statistically didnt indicate any apparent significant statistical proportion of the overall traffic. Gnangarra 10:49, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

You had indeed; sorry I didn't read carefully enough! —rybec 11:00, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Indonesia was for a long time colonised by the Dutch, so I imagine that the island may hold more significance for Dutch-speaking people than it does for the English-speaking world. Yet on the Dutch Wikipedia, "Java" is currently a disambiguation page, and the article about the place is titled Java (eiland). I suppose the disambiguation practices are different on that Wikipedia; I would expect that their choice of title was made for a practical reason, not as an attempt to belittle Indonesia. —rybec 10:14, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Realising that since "Java" is a disambiguation page on the nlwiki, traffic from bots written in Java shouldn't be distorting those figures the way it appears to do here, I checked the traffic statistics for the pages on the Dutch Wikipedia. In the last 90 days, the page about the programming language Java (programmeertaal) got 10090 hits whereas the island Java (eiland) got 7936. The article about the language got a spike of traffic but it doesn't account for the difference. The January 2012 statistics look more natural; the language got 4802 hits and the island got 3395: [11] [12]. The island has a historical connection to the Netherlands whereas the language is connected to America, hence I assume that the interest of English-speaking visitors is more likely to gravitate toward the language, as compared to Dutch speakers. —rybec 10:50, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

there has been 4.8million hits this month on Java, we can only guess at their intended target, but the other Java pages dont have any indication that that traffic was intended for them. At only 5% of this volume of hits occuring for the next most popular Java topic even assuming they all came through here al least 90% of hits found what they were looking for. Gnangarra 10:59, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

You had written before that the enwiki traffic to "Java" looked like it could be from bots; I agree and that's why I looked at the traffic to the Dutch Wikipedia. —rybec 11:03, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes and I said where ever the traffic was coming from its also self evident that it isnt going to any other Java page, this nomination claim it was intended for Hypertext Transfer Protocol to get there from here you need to pass through one of two articles software & program language neither of which have the traffic volumes to support that assumption. Java is part of Indonesia, the use of english is very common in Indonesia. Its also a common language for many other countries around the region the nlWiki is probably the least relevant to this discussion as many european countries are ashamed or totally ingnorant of their colonial pasts. Gnangarra 11:28, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I doubt the recent traffic to HTTP has anything to do with traffic to Java (look at the graphs). I think we agree that the recent traffic to Java is anomalous. I had posted the figures from two years ago: Java (programming language) had ~196,000 requests, Java (software platform) had ~25,000, Java had ~68,000, Jakarta had ~87,000 and Indonesia had ~335,000.

I didn't know that the Dutch were ignorant of their history. Perhaps a look at the stats from when Java was a disambiguation page on the English Wikipedia would be in order. —rybec 12:19, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

The nomination specifically implied that there is a correlation between the traffic to the two pages hence the reason for this discussion. Gnangarra 12:41, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

The title of this section Possible proposal to redirect people searching for Java - as I said further up the page somewhere To have to go through all this because there is a suspicion of automated traffic is something that really requires something well away from this talk page and to somewhere well clear of this particular topic.

• so far there is a WP:SNOW in relation to support to not change the current merge/move idea, and a lot of chatter. The issue of arriving at stats via different ways of looking at traffic seems superfluous in the end.

That should really be at another topic, not this one.. probably time to Time to drop the stick and move on. satusuro 11:39, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

@SatuSuro:, if your comment is addressed to me, please explain what you mean by "requires something well away from this talk page and to somewhere well clear of this particular topic." Are you simply saying that this discussion should have taken place at Java (disambiguation)? —rybec 12:19, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

could be really anyone who might be watching this page for that matter - primary place stuff i have seen cause grief elsewhere, and really someone needs to knock it on the head, it has knocked enough heads to date... g'night satusuro 12:34, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

This is not an anomaly

This is not an anomaly. Java shows up in the weekly stats as well as the monthly stats. I am surprised that so many people have no interest in trying to figure out what the hell is going on here. Looking at the weekly stats we see that Java has close to 2.2 millions views. The next closest geographical location is the United States with roughly 400,000 page views, or about 80% less traffic. Now think about this. We are discussing stats for the English Wikipedia. The U.S. is mainly an English speaking country, unlike Java, and has close to double the population. Even if people in Java are searching for their home country, they are likely not doing it on the English Wikipedia. Most would argue that the United States is much more likely to be a subject of inquiry in the English speaking world than this island; and why would people be searching specifically for this island out of all the places in the world??? Can we please take the time to try and figure out what is actually going on here? -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 12:47, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Suggesting renaming without knowing what is going on is rather silly way of doing things. Gnangarra 13:38, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

It was originally placed at the Village Pump. See this diff regarding the venue change. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 14:04, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

• An old revision of WP:5000 from 2013-08-25 [13] shows 29,399 hits that week for "Java" but 35,382 for "Java (programming language)". The stats.grok.se figures for the month of August 2013 show 106179 hits for "Java" and 157037 for "Java (programming language)" [14] [15] (the "software platform" article got 33758 requests). In September 2013 the language-related articles also got more hits than the Indonesian article. —rybec 13:27, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Rybec. So you think this is an anomaly? -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 13:29, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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