Talk:Iranian Persian

Difference of varieties

Why is the artificial and arbitrary distinction between Iranian Persian and Dari or Tajik Persian made? Wikipedia does not distinguish German as spoken in Germany from German as spoken in Austria despite strong differences in vocabulary and pronounciation. Even Swiss German is not considered separately, although it is not mutually intelligible, let alone varieties of English and other languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8070:795:4E00:6845:F407:B5A9:1E87 (talk) 21:04, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 16 May 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Number 57 14:04, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

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Western Persian → Iranian Persian – http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=pes --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 23:04, 23 May 2015 (UTC) Mjbmr (talk) 14:10, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose, "Iranian Persian" will only make the article title ambiguous. All Persian dialects are part of Iranian languages not just Western Persian. Khestwol (talk) 17:51, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Khestwol: But all Western Persian dialects are a part of Western Persian and the name of Western Persian was changed to Iranian Persian in SIL. Mjbmr (talk) 18:13, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Mjbmr, the main problem is with the ambiguity of the word "Iranian". It is not only an adjectival for anything from the modern country Iran, but it is also a noun referring to a branch of the Indo-Iranian languages. So it can not serve as a clear disambiguator. Because although we want to use it as an adjectival here, it has also another meaning. The "Eastern Persian" Dari language and Tajik language are also dialects of Persian and are yet Iranian languages. So "Iranian Persian" can refer to them as well, if the second meaning of "Iranian" (Indo-Iranian branch) is used. Khestwol (talk) 19:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment the persian wikipedia category page on persian dialects, https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/رده:گویش‌های_زبان_فارسی , does not list any dialects by cardinal directions. The parallel to this article machine translates to "Persian Iran". That's as far as I can go in my otherwise acknowledged state of ignorance. GregKaye 18:49, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

The Persian Wikipedia simply uses Farsi-ye Iran, "Persian of Iran". Such a title will be unambiguous and clear even in English. However in adjectival form "Iranian" is not a proper disambiguator because "Iranian" does not only means something from Iran but "Iranian" also means the large family of Iranian languages. Khestwol (talk) 19:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I thought Iranian languages is describing languages within the Iran that should be either called "Iranian Plateau language" or something. Mjbmr (talk) 19:38, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I am so confused, it's English's problem, I've been actually using "... of Iran" instead of "Iranian ..." when I didn't know much English. Mjbmr (talk) 19:56, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

BTW, all Persian dialects belongs within in the Iran, the one in the Afghanistan is called Dari, the one in Tajikistan is called Tajik, I don't see a problem for moving the page. Mjbmr (talk) 20:03, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Khestwol Please see: http://www.ethnologue.com/country/TM Mjbmr (talk) 20:22, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Ethnologue is a biased Christian missionary tertiary source. Its classification on Iranian languages seems especially confusing. We are not required to follow Ethnologue on everything word by word. Besides, even Ethnologue uses the word "Iranian" to refer to all "Iranian languages" including "Eastern Persian" dialects (Dari language and Tajik language) [1]. So not only the Persian of Iran/Western Persian, but Ethnologue considers all Persian dialects as "Iranian". Khestwol (talk) 16:08, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Khestwol: I'm not going to comment on your knowledge, we have language committee of Wikimedia who don't think English Wikipedia is a good source. When we say "Iranian ...", it means "... of Iran" in any way, but when you don't know the history you say "Iranian" doesn't mean "Iran", good luck. Mjbmr (talk) 21:24, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment, I propose to move this article to "Western Persian dialect" per WP:PRECISION. The lede itself clarifies this article is about a dialect. "Western Persian" alone can also refer to a person of Western Persian descent, or something from Western Persia, hence introducing ambiguity. "Western Persian dialect" is a more PRECISE title. Khestwol (talk) 18:16, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Khestwol Please read: ISO 639-3. This is a separate language. Mjbmr (talk) 18:26, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Mjbmr, in that case we can move to "Western Persian language". In any case, the title should be WP:PRECISE enough to clarify that the article is not about the Western Persian people, but about their speech. Khestwol (talk) 18:44, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Ogress _smash! 20:35, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment, I think this only will bring confusion. We have Western Persian which is the dialect spoken in Iran and Iraq etc, but we also have Tat language (Caucasus), which itself directly descends from "Iranian Persian" aka Western Persian, and is spoken in Azerbaijan and Dagestan in the North Caucasus. I believe having an adept in language to comment here would be good as well, so I'm pinging Kwami. - LouisAragon (talk) 12:32, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
• Sorry, never got the ping. These names are a bit confused, and I'm not terribly happy with them, but I think we need real sources to determine what to call our articles, not just something made up by Ethnologue. (So, oppose.) — kwami (talk) 18:13, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for agreeing! Ethnologue has been making up nonsense that can't be backed by academic sources. Though, in my opinion we can better choose "Western Persian language". Just a one word addition per WP:PRECISE. Khestwol (talk) 18:15, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• Note if this move request results in no move, then we can continue using "Western Persian" to refer to the language, and move the article simply to "Western Persian language" per WP:PRECISE. Khestwol (talk) 10:01, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

oppose

@HistoryofIran: As a new user, I had difficulty adding stuff to the current article which lacks many sections that are commonly used for languages descriptions e.g. phonology, syntax, morphology, etc. Yet, now that I have learned how to edit in Wikipedia, though still I am not a professional, you still keep undoing my edition without even reading them. What issue did my last edit have? --Tavakoli Morteza (talk) 23:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

The exact same issues mentioned by me and Diannaa, so with all due resppect, you haven't really learned anything. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:35, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran:Your response is vague as usual. If you have already told me what's wrong with my article, it wouldn't be that difficult to retell me for further elaboration. I literally don't understand what's wrong with my last edition.--Tavakoli Morteza (talk) 00:44, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Well, that's just incorrect. WP:COMPETENCE. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:50, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 24 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Western Persian → Iranian Persian – Iran's standard Persian (pes) is more commonly called Iranian Persian. This is the name used by Ethnologue and ISO. Rye-96 (talk) 19:56, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:42, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

• @Rye-96: already discussed in May 2015 hereinabove. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:43, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
• Some people have argued that the term "Iranian Persian" is "made-up" and that we shouldn't rely on Ethnologue. If that's so then "Western Persian" is just as made-up and is not supported by a single one of the listed sources.
  —Rye-96 (talk) 23:07, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
• Alright, I'm expanding the article and I have found sources where the term "Western Persian" does occur. "Western Persian", like "Eastern Persian", refers to a group of dialects spoken in a certain geographical region, rather than a single "Standard Persian". The reason why I was suggesting "Iranian Persian" was because of that, since the term "Iranian" as the national demonym of Iran would've better described Iran's standardized variety of Persian.
  —Rye-96 (talk) 17:09, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support significantly more common in print sources since 1960 per NGRAMS[2] (t · c) buidhe 19:45, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

far

cg 2.187.169.73 (talk) 16:36, 21 September 2022 (UTC)