Talk:Giannis Antetokounmpo

Antetokounmpo's dual nationality in infobox/lede

Antetokounmpo is a naturalized citizen of both Greece and Nigeria, which means he has two nationalities, not just one. The infobox and lede need to state both of his nationalities in chronological order to be in line with WP:NPOV. It is factually incorrect as it stands right now. Retrofan781 (talk) 22:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Bumping this in 2022, but not sure why this is still an issue. It seems like multiple users have mentioned WP:ETHNICITY and the context of Antetokounmpo's life, as well as other notable examples of basketball players who have multiple citizenship but that fact is more of a footnote in their life instead of actually being relevant to them. And that's why their dual nationality is not mentioned.

The article covers Antetokoumpo's ethnicity, family and citizenship extensively. Furthermore, Anteotokounpo was born in Greece and appears to play exclusively for the Greece national basketball team. His nickname is even "Greek Freak" (last point is not that relevant, but still). Clear Looking Glass (talk) 09:10, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

WP:Ethnicity says dual citizens like Arnold Schwarzenegger should be listed as Austrian and American, not Austrian-American. So since Antetokounmpo has both Greek and Nigerian citizenship, presumably this article should say "Greek and Nigerian" rather than "Greek-Nigerian", right?

And even if we were to keep a hyphenated form, "Greek-Nigerian" doesn't seem correct. I believe Greek-Nigerian would normally refer to a Nigerian of Greek ancestry, not the other way around. (Compare "Irish-American", "African-American", "Italian-American", etc.) Tim314 (talk) 03:35, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Using and versus a hyphen are based on recent MOS changes, which may or may not have consensus. As for the ordering of Greek-Nigerian, I wonder if that's more of an American convention than global. Also, he was essentially stateless, without ciztizenship, until early adulthood, acquiring both relatively close together. —Bagumba (talk) 04:19, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Oppose: MOS:ETHNICITY [...]Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability FMSky (talk) 23:13, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Does not apply: #1. The previous nationality/place of birth would be Greek in his case. #2. His Nigerian nationality is relevant to his notability per the news articles shown above and countless others. #3. Per WP:NPOV [...]This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. Retrofan781 (talk) 00:18, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

@SilentResident The argument was he has dual citizenship. You created a false argument based on ethnicity that neither @Ampimd nor I made, and then argued against it. That's a strawman. Retrofan781 (talk) 01:50, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

@Retrofan781 Tom Hanks has also Greek citizenship, do we consider him Greek-American now? Stefanos Tsitsipas has both Greek and Russian citizenships, yet he is written as plainly Greek in his wikipedia article. Alexander Zverev is 100% ethnically Russian, yet he is considered German in his article. Why the double standards with Giannis? Nickmariostories(talk) 20:15, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

@Retrofan781:: is there a reason why you deleted his widely used nickname from the lead? please put it back in ffs. its bad enough already that forcefully put nigerian in there even though 3 different people had reverted it FMSky (talk) 02:56, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

@Bagumba:: shouldnt the version BEFORE the edit war be restored? FMSky (talk) 03:03, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

FMSky: WP:PREFER doesn't seem to directly apply here. The page has long sourced in the body that he has a Nigerian passport. The dispute is whether that belongs in the lead sentence and infobox. The current banner on the page says: "This protection is not an endorsement of the current version." Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 04:44, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

@FMSky Because it was unsourced and not entirely accurate. He goes by that nickname because people for the longest time couldn't say his last name. Retrofan781 (talk) 05:03, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

 Comment: Retrofan781 has violated Wikipedia's rules and I had to throw a warning on his Talk page for editwarring with several other editors and breaking the 3 Rever Rule: [1]. I highly recommend that the particular editor refrains from further disruptive edit warrings with others who may not share his biased edits and seek WP:CONSENSUS for applying the chances they seek to the article, or else I will report them to the ANI. Now, regarding Giannis Antetokounmpo, editor Retrofan is showing clear signs of bias here because they are not only violating WP:ETHNICITY guidelines for the lead section of the article, but also they have removed information not related to the ethnicity, such as the nickname "Greek Freak". WP:ETHNICITY clearly states that: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. For guidance on historic place name versus modern-day names, see WP:MODERNPLACENAME." The country, region or territory the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, are Greece, not Nigeria. Giannis was born in Greece, grew and lived there in his whole life before becoming famous and traveling to the USA. His fame and career begun in Greece when he was teenager. When he became 23 years old, he emigrated to the United States. The Nigerian passport was given to him by the time he emigrated to the USA and does not dictate what Giannis's country of birth, nationality and permanent residence were. Many people may have multiple passports for business or career purposes, but Wikipedia has to be careful here to not confuse the nationality of people and the country they were born and resided in, with the passports they may get later in their lives as part of their careers. Furthermore it should not be neglected that that Giannis visited his parent's homeland, Nigeria, only after he emigrated to the US where he continued his career, and the visit was a brief one: he doesn't reside here nor was part of his career that made him notable. The reason of the visit to Nigeria was a personal one: to see his grandparents and his family's roots. Simple as that. A single visit to Nigeria for 24 hours, IMO, does not suffice to overwrite everything else about Giannis's life, be it birthplace, residence, career and notability. Retrofan781 also removed without any valid explanation the nickname "Greek Freak" Giannis has obtained and is part of his notability, which shows the editor's edits have nothing to do with facts and sources. This is simply editorial bias, and this is unacceptable.

The editor had cited WP:NPOV to justify their edit warring and particularly the part where it says "This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus." to convince us that editorial opinion of the other editors who disagree with their edits, do not matter here; only their own editorial opinion matters, and that no consensus is required for their problematic edits because they are "right" and the rest of us who disagree with that editor, are "wrong". But I am afraid this is not the purpose of the NPOV policy. The NPOV policy is to make sure that all the information is presented neutrally to the article, and it already is: information about Giannis's Nigerian roots are already covered by the article. Noting Giannis's birthplace and home of residence was Greece, should not be perceived as POV, because it is a fact and has nothing to do with neutrality here.

For these aforementioned reasons, when the article is unlocked, the editor's problematic edits will be reverted. I suggest the editor Retrofan781 refrains from further unconstructive edits such as these, and avoids reinstating these edits unless they 1) have the required consensus and 2) they present us strong and indisputable sources confirming that Nigeria was Gianni's birthplace and not Greece, that he lived in Nigeria and not Greece, and that his career and notability begun in Nigeria and not Greece, and last, Nigeria is somehow more weighting on Gianni's notability other than being of Nigerian descent from his parents's side, to warrant inclusion to the lead section. I am afraid, such sources do not exist, as I have searched extensively both the sources present on the article and on the web but I wouldn't find any. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 05:59, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

@SilentResident: ... when the article is unlocked, the editor's problematic edits will be reverted ... It's premature to say what the consensus will be when the article is unlocked. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 07:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

There's not a single reason to not have his nickname in there. Please restore it FMSky (talk) 07:27, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with FMSky, the nickname is removed without reason, probably because the editor Retrofan781 WP:DIDNTLIKEIT that the nickname contained the word "Greek" in it. which indicates possible WP:NATIONALIST bias. The nickname should be restored asap.

Furthermore, I did notice that Retrofan781 also has tried to add dual nationality for Giannis into the article's Infobox, and particularly the "nationality" section, giving Giannis both a Greek and Nigerian nationality. For this reason, I did some research to find sources confirming Giannis' dual natioanlity/citizenship but I wouldn't find any. The provided sources are only confirming that Giannis is a owner of multiple passports, which is different from having multiple citizenship/nationality (please see Multiple citizenship for more info). He has got a Nigerian passport for travel purposes, but no sources were found confirming that he had got a Certificate of Citizenship of Nigeria to denote that this person is also a citizen/national of Nigeria. The only sources found so far are the ones confirming that Giannis was Naturalized and received his Certificate of Citizenship in Greece: [2] (title translation: The Antetokounmpo brothers, Greek citizens - quoted text: For his part, their agent, Giorgos Dimitropoulos stressed: "The process of naturalization of Thanasis and Yannis was completed and the children took Greek citizenship.) To obtain Greek citizenship, one person has to meet very specific requirements as explained in the Greek Ministry of Internal Affairs: [3] including being born or having lived in Greece for a long time. Which again, is not about Passports, but naturalization. Passports have different requirements.

Its important that we do not confuse passports with citizenship/nationality of people. Passports do not determine a person's nationality and may be issued separately; A person's nationality is determined by their naturalization and receiving a certificate of citizenship, which is a different document. A passport on the other hand, is a travel document usually given by or purchased from a government, primarily for the purpose of allowing its holder to travel internationally, usually for educational or career purposes, and a person may have multiple passports. The information I was able to verify so far, is in consistency with Giannis being able to get a Nigerian passport without being a citizen/national of Nigeria, and the one information does not contradict the other. However I have found no information about Giannis's naturalization in Nigeria at all. If Retrofan781 is able to provide us sources that Giannis has dual Greek and Nigerian nationality/citizenship, then they are welcome to restore the information to the Infobox's nationality section. Wikipedia is based on WP:VERIFIABILITY and sources are required to support this claim. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 07:44, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - Regarding the nationality in the infobox, how is this different from Ben Simmons or Kyrie Irving, both of whom hold American and Australian passports? In this cases, they have exclusively played only for the national teams of Australia and the US respectively and the infobox only shows that FIBA nationality. Seems like Giannis, who has only played for Greece, should follow that precedent. Rikster2 (talk) 11:30, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Exactly. Thank you, Rikster2. I agree absolutely. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 12:08, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I know this is a over year late, but I'm not sure why this is still an issue, as someone recently added "Greek-Nigerian again (I've removed it since following this discussion)? I agree with @Rikster2: and SilentResident. Of course he might describe himself as being "Nigerian-Greek" or that he has dual citizenship to Greece and Nigeria. But in that same token, many Americans, Brits, Canadians, Australians, and so on may have dual citizenship. Lots of notable people do and they identity as such. But per WP:ETHNICITY, this is not mentioned unless it has some sort of notability beyond trivial information. He was born in Greece and appears to play exclusively (as noted) for the Greece National team. Perhaps if something changes in his national team representation or residence or whatever, then his Nigerian citizenship may hold more weight in another discussion. But until then, the article already covers his ethnicity, family and citizenship extensively. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 09:15, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

 Comment: considering that several days have passed but the editor Retrofan781 has failed to address the issues raised here in the talk page and provide adequate answers regarding the problematic changes on the article, and considering that no stronger and more solid sources WP:VERIFYING these changes/claims were provided, considering that the changes aren't in line with the guidelines such as WP:ETHNICITY and are against the common rationale in Wikipedia, and considering that there is no whatsoever WP:CONSENSUS for these edits to stay, their changes have now been reverted: [4]. The editor is welcome to resume this talk page discussion in the future. However they ought to refrain from reinstating the same changes again without addressing the issues pointed here and achieving a minimal consensus first. Have a nice day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 11:49, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

After winning NBA championships in 2021. Giannis, during the press conference, said he represents Nigeria and Greece and he went on to say, "yes, it can be done". I don't see why we have to force him into "your" own box Amaekuma (talk) 11:21, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Above, it was stated if ...able to provide us sources that Giannis has dual Greek and Nigerian nationality/citizenship, then they are welcome to restore the information to the Infobox's nationality section. Seems like the prose already stated that he's got dual citizenship. I updated the infobox to reflect this as well.—Bagumba (talk) 11:55, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I added this thinking the lead prose had been stable, but it appears that was not necesssarily the case.—Bagumba (talk) 12:19, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

While the issue on him holding dual Nigerian and Greek nationality/citizenship is solved, I'm curious as to see where the "consensus" on his lede sentence stating "Greek-Nigerian" came from? The discussion from summer 2021 seemed to be a back and fourth on whether the subject is "really" a dual citizen, and then discussion again in mid-2022 confirming he is a dual citizen/national. I only see talk from @Amaekuma and @Bagumba, and didn't involve most of the users discussing in summer 2021. So was this the "consensus"?

Since he was born in Greece, has played solely for Greece in his national career and currently plays for an American team (NBA), shouldn't he just be "Greek" in the lede per WP:ETHNICITY? Seems like @Nickmariostories agrees with that and @SilentResident also mentioned WP:ETHNICITY. With Antetokounmpo being from Greece, growing up there and being notable as a Greek citizen first and foremost back when this discussion started in summer 2021. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 12:14, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Bold edits and WP:SILENCE can also lead to consensus. But conensus can change too. My only comment for now is that WP:ETHNICITY doesn't technically apply, as he's also a citizen of Nigeria now. —Bagumba (talk) 12:32, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Here is the link to the interview stated above. He said it on 2:30 Amaekuma (talk) 11:46, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@Bagumba: A man has stated himself what he is, Here is another link, an article where he explicitly calls himself a "Nigerian-Greek". What do you mean provide you sources? Hearing it from the player's mouth himself isn't good enough? Amaekuma (talk) 12:30, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

References

I was quoting someone else's earlier comment about sources. It seems like his dual citizenship is currently sourced. —Bagumba (talk) 15:02, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

 Comment: Currently, the article lede violates WP:MOSETHNICITY since Giannis never lived in Nigeria. He only visited the country for a couple of days but that doesn't make that as noteworthy mentioning on the lede. His only connection to Nigeria is through his family, but Wikipedia cannot include his family's roots on Gianni's lede, in the sentence about his own nationality. Giannis's family roots should be reflected through his parents provided that it is notable (which the lede already does mention since it is notable), on the main body of the article, or and/or the respective articles about his ancestors, provided that their articles do exist in Wikipedia as well.

Also editors have to bear in mind that Giannis's rise to notability is due to his basketball skills. However his rise to fame was accomplished while he played and made a career on Greek and American soil only, not Nigerian; Per WP:RS, Giannis played for Greece's national team, and in the NBA (USA) only. Since he never played for Nigeria, it wasn't in Nigeria that he rose to fame that would otherwise be reasonable to mention his Nigerian ethnicity on Lede.

Editors can not expect that the Wikipedia's guidelines are applied selectively. Like how it was done for all other people of dual citizenship in Wikipedia, such as Tom Hanks (has dual American-Greek citizenship) and Rita Ora (dual British-Albanian citizenship), and many others, the same is true for Giannis as well. WP:MOSETHNICITY has been violated and the changes will be reverted. If any editors here believe that lede should reflect Nigerian nationality, then they should take the discussion to the talk page of the relevant policy and request amendment, or even open a RfC here about Giannis's dual citizenship if they believe that WP:MOSETHNICITY favors their position.

Edit: the disputed addition has now been removed both due to the lack of clear talk page WP:CONSENSUS and due to not being policy-compliant (See WP:MOSETHNICITY). Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 13:54, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

The long-standing version has been restored. MOS:ETHNICITY is absolutely satisfied. Antetokounmpo identifies as both Greek and Nigerian. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:07, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

@Bastun: In your edit summary of your revert, you claimed that there is a long-standing consensus version [5]. Please can you provide me a link of that consensus? An editor provided sources verifying both nationalities, but verifiability doesn't warrant inclusion I am afraid. Per WP:ONUS: "While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included.". Let alone inclusion in an way that violates the other guidelines such as WP:MOSETHNICITY which states that "the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable.", criteria which Nigerian nationality does not meet since he was born and grew in Greece where he became notable before he migrated to USA to continue his career at NBA. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:19, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

And WP:IDONTLIKETHAT doesn't merit censorship. We can throw alphabet soup around all day, but the fact is it's absolutely relevant and included in the vast majority of BLPs. And, as we spend a paragraph of the article body discussing his citizenship and the WP:LEDE follows the body, it therefore follows it's WP:DUE for the lede. There is also the fact that Bagumba, above, advises that WP:ETHNICITY doesn't apply to the article... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Bagumba's wrong interception of WP:MOSETHNICITY doesn't make their arguments more valid and the guideline null and void. Nothing in this guideline WP:MOSETHNICITY states what Bagumba claims. Ι asked for you to provide me a link proving that we reached a WP:CONSENSUS. Because nowhere in this talk page we agreed that you may add your preferred version, in violation of Wikipedia's guidelines and you didn't provide such a link. Instead, you are accusing others who are complying with the guidelines for WP:IDONTLIKETHAT and for resorting to CENSORSHIP? That's unfortunate. You stated that Restore long-standing consensus version. on your edit summary, so I will kindly ask, once more time to provide me link of that consensus. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:05, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Bagumba's wrong interception of WP:MOSETHNICITY...: He's a Nigerian citizen. How is that "wrong"?—Bagumba (talk) 11:45, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Consensus version because it's been in the article for well over half a year. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:53, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

About your question: "He's a Nigerian citizen. How is that "wrong"?. I am afraid Wikipedia functions by a set of rules, not by personal logics, which is what led us to this dispute here. There is no precedence in Wikipedia where all nationalities are mentioned on ledes just because people have multiple citizenships; only the one under which they became notable. Lede has to be compact and summarize only the things that are the most notable about that said person: Giannis is notable for his Nigerian origin, not his Nigerian nationality. He wasn't born in Nigeria, nor lived there. Has Nigerian origin only through his parents. Therefore Lede should reflect that by mentioning his Greek nationality and Nigerian origin through his parents (which it already does). Therefore, your addition of Nigerian nationality despite Wikipedia's guidelines telling you to not do that is not an improvement. The guideline says only the nationality in the country, region or territory the person lived or lives when he became prominent is mentioned on lede. Rest (such as honorary nationalities and citizenships), go to main body instead.

What WP:RS state, what the facts are, and what the Wikipedia's guidelines do tell us to do:

According to WP:MOSETHNICITY, ethnicity on Lede will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident; which per WP:RS is USA, not Nigeria. or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. which per WP:RS is Greece, not Nigeria.

Therefore, if you want multiple citizenships to be mentioned on lede, you will have to prove that it was the nationality the person had when he rose to prominence:

• 1) Giannis was in Nigeria when he became notable.
• 2) Giannis had Nigerian citizenship when he became notable.

Fearing that I might me wrong, I have searched (again) on the web for such sources confirming your positions, but I wouldn't find any. All I could find did not meet Wikipedia's MOSETHNICITY criteria, since the RS available on the web is confirming that:

• 1) Giannis was born in Greece and never visited Nigeria when he became notable.
• 2) Giannis was finally was given his honorary Nigerian citizenship much later in his life, when he started a new career at the US.
• 3) His visit to Nigeria happened much later: after setting in the US and becoming the NBA's superstar first.
• 4) According to the RS, his interactions with Nigeria were limited. Were only through his ancestry (family) and paid only a single visit to that country after becoming NBA superstar, not earlier. Meaning Nigeria wasn't even the first foreign country he could visit in his life; that was the United States.

You accused me of WP:IDONTLIKEIT while missing the fact that WP:MOSETHNICITY was created exactly for the purpose of avoiding POV-pushing implications that Nigeria had actually anything to do with his notability other than being his parent's home country. As it is wrong to imply to the readers that his honorary citizenship was given to him not for honorary purposes but for reasons not implied in the sources. These POV-pushing additions on Lede are just plainly wrong, give them WP:UNDUE weight and there is no such precedence elsewhere in Wikipedia. The Wiki community created these policies so that editors such as you and me can follow them. For the rest of the info that doesn't go on Lede, there is the main body, where a subject can be provided with more details that would help avoid such POV-pushing implications or undue weight.

I am waiting for sources from you. You will have to find strong and substantial sources justifying the dual citizenship exception you seek for Giannis' lede.

About your statement: "Consensus version because it's been in the article for well over half a year": I find it problematic, as problematic as your actions, because the History log of the article shows you both WP:EDITWARred your preferred version to the article: [6][7][8][9], not by seeking talk page consensus properly, which should have been done by notifying/{{Ping}}ing the involved parties in this old (July 2021) Talk Page discussion which you revived much later, on May 2022 and thus we missed our chance to participate -if we wished- prior to passing these changes on the article. It was only thanks to the fellow editor coming to my talk page that I was notified [10]. I am afraid this is not how things are done in Wikipedia and no proper consensus can come from that. When trying to change the consensus by reviving the old talk thread where other editors participated at, then, you ought to notify/ping them properly so that the disputed changes can be discussed first. Only this way WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE in line with Wikipedia's policies. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 14:18, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I've skimmed your almost-6kb wall-of-text and am wondering how come we were supposed to ping you in May 2022 but that same requirement didn't extend to you in January '23. /shrug. Nor have I have edit-warred. I don't know what your obsession is with keeping '-Nigerian' out of the lede, but per my reading of MOS:ETHNICITY it is absolutely WP:DUE for inclusion. Likewise, WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY would certainly mean it warrants inclusion. Also note that MOS:ETHNICITY is a guideline - not a "rule" or a policy. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:58, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, since you necro-posted on an old thread, you ought to notify the participants of that thread, which constituted the involved parties in the consensus on that matter. It was concluded and you joined it after such a long time for the purpose of changing it. Weird that you see "6kb wall of text" when my response to you is 1.60kb. In case you are incapable of realizing it, I am responding to statements made by both of you, not just you. I am waiting for you to provide any guidelines or policies specific to ethnicity, which you failed to provide yet. While I present WP:MOSETHNICITY which is specifically about our subject here, you are countering with a broader one that isn't specifically about our subject. I am still waiting for sources from you that prove it is WP:DUE to have dual nationality on infobox. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:20, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, since you necro-posted on an old thread, you ought to notify the participants of that thread...: There is no requirement for that. However, if people are being notified on a previously dead topic, all participants should be notified, not a select few based on their known opinions, per WP:CANVASS. —Bagumba (talk) 16:17, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I am not sure how exactly you read "notify the participants of that thread" as meaning certain participants and not all? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:37, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

@SilentResident: You had stated earlier that if ...able to provide us sources that Giannis has dual Greek and Nigerian nationality/citizenship, then they are welcome to restore the information to the Infobox's nationality section. Do you still support that?—Bagumba (talk) 16:19, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

That's not the full quote. Please, quote me fully. The sentence you quoted is part of a statement which is missing the adjacent sentence: "I have found no information about Giannis's naturalization in Nigeria at all. If Retrofan781 is able to provide us sources that Giannis has dual Greek and Nigerian nationality/citizenship, then they are welcome to restore the information to the Infobox's nationality section." which I still stand by and I will support inclusion.

Naturalisation gives WP:DUE weight and is in accordance with MOSETHNICITY and the common practice in Wikipedia. For example, while I am trying to avoid to point on what was done on other articles, at the same time it is important that everybody here understands why what was tried to do with Giannis wasn't done elsewhere in Wikipedia and for a good reason. For example, Eleni Foureira, a naturalised Greek, Albanian singer who was born in Albania and later moved to Greece, and made notable work in both countries that contributed to her notability. Her lede mentions both ethnicities because of that.

In our case here, no sources back then did confirm that Giannis was naturalised in Greece or that he originated from Nigeria. And as such, Wikipedia cannot imply that he is. There is no such a precedent in Wikipedia as far as I know, and I am vehemently against such double standards for Giannis. His article should be treated with the same standards as every other person article. For example Jennifer Aniston and Tom Hanks are showing only the nationality they had when they became notable, not any honorary ones they might have obtained later in their lives giving them an undue weight on lede. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:26, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, since you necro-posted on an old thread, you ought to notify the participants of that thread... - last comment above before yesterday was on 22 May 2022. By Bagumba. Next comment - or "necro-posting", if you like - was by you, SilentResident, yesterday. So by your logic, it was your responsibility to ping everyone. By some guideline or policy you've not mentioned. You're being hypocritical here, even without taking your canvassing into account. Bottom line here is the dude identifies as Greek-Nigerian, has dual citizenship, we spend a fair bit of text in the body discussing his nationality, and WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:01, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm astonished. Instead of admitting that you have no consensus for the inclusion, and instead of providing the sources I have asked so that we can resolve the dispute in line with the RS and the guideline on ethnicity, you are accusing others of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, WP:CENSORSHIP, and now even WP:CANVASSING, and what else? I am waiting for the WP:RS.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:32, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm astonished you're doubling down instead of apologising, but hey, that's apparently where we are. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:42, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

In our case here, no sources back then did confirm that Giannis was naturalised in Greece or that he originated from Nigeria. The article is currently sourced that he's a dual citizen. Do you currently support its inclusion in the lead and inbobox? —Bagumba (talk) 17:38, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

It verifies only that he is owner of multiple nationalities, but not his naturalisation. May I ask why you insist so much portraying a non-naturalised person such as Giannis as naturalised? Or why Giannis' dual nationality should be treated differently for this article lede than it was done elsewhere across Wikipedia? If I am wrong, would you point me to an article of a notable person whose dual nationality is mentioned on lede? Even one? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:06, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

It verifies only that he is owner of multiple nationalities, but not his naturalisation.: Sounds like you have a conspiracy theory.—Bagumba (talk) 23:58, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm not talking about conspiracies but reflecting on the WP:RS which carefully refrains from implying something you have tried here and which is not what WP:MOSETHNICITY ever says. Instead of conspiracy theories accusations, you should have looked at the case more thoroughly as I did. See: Nigerian nationality law by Naturalisation. To me, it seems you are in a WP:IDONTLIKEIT territory. Considering how you are refusing to seek a mutual ground based on WP:MOSETHNICITY and you have failed to provide me the sources I asked from you that support your view that the nationality they obtained was relevant to their notability, this leaves me no option other than initiate a RfC and leave the matter at the hands of the Wiki community to decide. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 00:26, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm not talking about conspiracies but reflecting on the WP:RSwhich carefully refrains from implying something you have tried...: The existing cited sources call him a dual citizen. If we can't first agree on basic facts, I see no benefit to discussing guidelines and policies. —Bagumba (talk) 05:14, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

The existing cited sources call him a dual citizen. If we can't first agree on basic facts Yes and no. He did get honorary citizenship but he wasn't naturalised in Nigeria to call him Nigerian. The vast majority of the sources mention him just as a Greek, not as Nigerian, even though he holds dual citizenship. Wikipedia reflects on sources, not on your personal POV. Trying to give WP:UNDUE weight to the second, honorary nationality, something which even the sources avoid doing, is a violation of Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy. Even the other international encyclopedias such as Britannica [11] do not do what you are trying to do here. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 12:12, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

You're really arguing we should follow the lead of less accurate sources over that of more accurate ones?! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:56, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

...do not do what you are trying to do here.: I'm trying to reach an agreement on the facts first. It seems like WP:OR on your part to ignore the cited sources in the body that call him a dual citizen. If we cannot agree on the facts first, it is fruitless to discuss which guidelines apply to the lead, and what is undue or not. —Bagumba (talk) 15:15, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Bagumba, it is understandable that you run out of arguments (and sources to back your POV-pushing change?), and thus, all what you would do anymore is simply accuse your opponents in the dispute. But worry not. Our discussion here is over. Fortunately, Wikipedia is offering dispute resolution options and I am positive a RfCs will help develop the new WP:CONSENSUS on the matter we need. If you were right all along and dual ethnicity can be given wp:undue weight at the expense of the guidelines on nationality, then you have nothing to be afraid of the RfC's outcome, right? There is no reason the RfC wouldn't conclude in your favor in such a case. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

 Comment: To all the editors: Despite repeatedly asking for WP:RS verifying that the second citizenship is WP:DUE 1) through birth, 2) through living, 3) through events (i.e got famous for his skills or for playing in teams) in the second citizenship's country, no such sources were provided. Therefore, I will be initiating a RfC soon, where the Wiki community will have a chance to participate and decide on the matter of dual citizenship for lede. whether we can go by the WP:UNDUE version Bastun and Bagumba insist with, or restore the previous version and bring the lede in line with Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy and WP:MOSETHNICITY guidelines, by reflecting on the vast majority of the WP:RS which refer to him with just the nationality of the country he was born, lived, and became notable. Edit: Strinking as it may indeed be perceived as Poisoning the well.

A note to those unfamiliar with the present dispute: both the dispute and the upcoming RfC, are about the application of MOSETHNICITY on the lead. Any mentions of dual citizenship in the main body are irrelevant to MOSETHNICITY and not disputed. Good day everyone. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Strawman and Poisoning the well - good job! 🙄 Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 18:07, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, now that you mention it, my comment was Poisoning the well. It has been striken. As for the other, maybe you were looking at the mirror? Because this [12] speaks volumes. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:07, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Is dual citizeship on lede for Giannis a unique case across Wikipedia?

 Comment: In preparation for a RfC, I want to make sure whether there is or not a precedent in Wikipedia where WP:MOSETHNICITY wasn't followed and a notable person is called by a dual nationality by pairing both the nationality of a country he was born, lived or played in its national team and became notable, with the nationality of another country where he didn't do any of that. After doing an extensive search across Wikipedia, I wouldn't find any other articles following the rationale used here for Giannis's article regarding dual citizenship on lede. I only stumbled upon this case here of Hakeem Olajuwon, another dual-national Nigerian basketball player just like Giannis. However unlike Giannis, Olajuwon is Nigerian by birth, therefore dual nationality makes sense under these criteria. Maybe I am just not good at researching? Or did I just miss any articles? Or there are indeed no articles constituting a precedent? Can someone help me find Wikipedia articles whose ledes follow the same rationale as Giannis's? Any help in finding such articles will be appreciated and will definitely help resolve the dispute we are having here. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:OTHERCONTENT is not an argument either way. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:34, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

You already made your points clear at the discussion just above. I am not here to argue with you, so please, do me the favor and save your arguments for the RfC. I am not here not about WP:OTHERCONTENT either, but to understand the extend of the consistency of the application of guidelines and policies across Wikipedia on dual citizenship. The presence/lack of any people articles with WP:UNDUE dual citizenship finding/not finding any application across the Project, indicates whether your edit can be an exception to WP:NPOV's application, or WP:NPOV applies regardless, and cannot be superseded by the editorial consensus. Furthermore, understanding whether your edit goes against the rationale and common practices across Wikipedia, indicates the more recommended way of dealing with it: either with a discussion at WP:BLP or go ahead with my initial plan of initiating a RfC here at Giannis. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 20:38, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

No, I don't believe I did make that point above. You're the one actually repeating arguments again from above. This is a talk page to improve the article, yes? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:10, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I understand you are frustrated, but I am as equally frustrated and you gotta understand that. As much as you are eager to get your disputed edit accepted by me, I prefer to get some input from third, uninvolved parties first. If the RfC proves your position to be right, then your edit may stay. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 22:17, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

...do me the favor and save your arguments for the RfC: Nobody WP:OWNs this discussion. —Bagumba (talk) 00:12, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

And nobody may WP:FILIBUSTER it through repetition either. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 00:57, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

That was the first mention of "WP:OTHERCONTENT" by anyone. —Bagumba (talk) 01:56, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

 Comment: In preparation of the RfC, while collecting sources, it stumbled to my attention new information absent from the article. According to the sources,[13] Giannis got both citizenships past his notability, and the one is related to the other. According to some sources, the one citizenship might in fact seen its bureaucratic procedures sped up exactly because of the lack of progress in the other citizenship and due to him urgently needing a passport to move abroad (USA). According to these sources always, he would have obtained the second citizenship first (Nigerian) and then the first citizenship (Greek) had not been for the Nigerian Embassy's technical problem with one of the equipment for issuing new passports. Therefore Giannis was stateless even after gaining his notability, and he only got both citizenships much later, roughly at the same time in his life.

Given these facts, I doubt now that it a serious case of WP:UNDUE, therefore, in my opinion, it no longer requires a dispute resolution. At least not without any WP:RS contradicting that information.

However, the negative impression from resorting to edit-warring to get the disputed information added on the article, and without {{ping}}ing the dispute's opponents at the talk page, so that they would just agree between themselves, didn't help in the WP:CONSENSUS-building process which would potentially resolve the dispute sooner. To not mention the lack of effort in the talk page to acknowledge all opposing editors's legitimate WP:NPOV concerns, while respecting the Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, such as WP:MOSETHNICITY. From now and on, I will be monitoring this article more closely. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 01:17, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Wow. Just wow. Maybe have a read of WP:AGF and WP:NPA, there? Once again - you are the one who "necro-posted" on this thread (last post was Bagumba on 22 May until you posted above on 9 January), where... yes, you failed to {{ping}} anyone. Pot. Kettle. Black. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:00, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

@Bastun - It doesn't seem like @SilentResident was a sole "necro-poster." @Bagumba and that other user posted on 22 May 2022 after an almost year long silence from the summer of 2021? I don't see a clear consensus that has overwhelming support for "Greek-Nigerian" when users like @Rikster2 back in 2021 and @Nickmariostories on 29 June 2022 seemed against calling him "Greek-Nigerian". And @SilentResident seems to agree with not adding "Nigerian". So I don't know where you're claiming that there is a "clear consensus".

His birth, much of his life and professional career have been in/for Greece and WP:ETHNICITY seems to support just saying he's "Greek". Clear Looking Glass (talk) 07:23, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

On the minor issue: If Bob posts on a thread after a year, and Ted and Carol respond, it is indeed Bob who has "necro-posted." The replies to a new post can't be considered the same. If Bob also accuses Ted of not pinging anyone, well, that's on Bob, not Ted or Carol or Alice. On the more substantive issue, you may have missed that SilentResident changed their mind (post of 1:17 on 14 January, above), partly due to this. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:56, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Bastun, the source I found doesn't eliminate the WP:UNDUE issue we are having here. Read more carefully what I wrote please: Given these facts, I doubt now that it a serious case of WP:UNDUE (emphasis in bold). There is a difference between not serious and no UNDUE. When you were asked, you failed to provide any sources eliminating the WP:UNDUE problem the content you wanted to stay, causes. The only positive thing that has been achieved in this discussion is me finding a source helping somewhat your position, but not eliminating the WP:UNDUE problems your addition causes. The only reason I didn't seek dispute resolution is due to the issue not being as egregious as I have originally thought. But this doesn't mean the issue has been resolved. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 11:48, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

If multiple reliable sources reported on the issue of the Antetokounmpo brothers' citizenship or lack thereof - as they have - then WP:DUE is most definitely satisfied. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:03, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Missing info

When you type in giannis and his Wikipedia pops up, it only lists one child- Liam, but not Maverick (he is mentioned though, in his personal like section). Just wanted to let Wikipedia know! Thanks 98.144.181.7 (talk) 20:49, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

...it only lists one child... Which "it" are you referring to? As you mentioned, both are found at Giannis Antetokounmpo#Personal life.—Bagumba (talk) 01:35, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

I've removed the names of his girlfriend and children, as well as their dates of birth per WP:BLP. Such information of non-notable individuals adds no encyclopaedic value. – ².O.^Boxing 03:34, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Nationality

AnotherGuyThere why are you removing sourced content? You are in breach of 3rr and may end up blocked unless you discuss your changes and get consensus for them. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:18, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Have you even bothered checking previous edit summaries? Highly doubt it. AnotherGuyThere (talk) 14:19, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Do you? Yes, I have seen your edit summaries. You're misquoting policy. Nationality is appropriate for the lede. You are removing sources, and edit-warring against consensus. Stop. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:29, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Not when non-notable though. See Rita Ora, born in Kosovo but considering having spent less than a year there referred only as British. AnotherGuyThere (talk) 14:45, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an argument. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:55, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

They've since been blocked as a sock/block evasion. —Bagumba (talk) 15:52, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Earlier discussion is above at #Antetokounmpo's nationality in infobox/lede.—Bagumba (talk) 14:32, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

senior men's Greek national team = senior Greece men's national team

"Greek national basketball team" is obsolete and is now succeeded by "Greece men's national basketball team". Senior is not necessary since "junior" teams are noted by year "under" in title.2603:8000:D300:D0F:6532:152A:4FC5:D1EF (talk) 05:27, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Arsenal fan

Pretty sure Giannis is an Arsenal fan not Inter Milan. He's been very vocal on Thierry Henry being one of his idols and how Arsenal were his favorite team growing up.

References

https://mobile.twitter.com/arsenal/status/1220767101037793280?lang=en

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/othersport/551970/Giannis-Antetokounmpo-Arsenal-fan-Chelsea-shirt

https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/nba-star-antetokounmpo-reveals-his-support-for-arsenal/jrqccj5yz0gn1e05p49tbr8ib

https://mobile.twitter.com/nbauk/status/965014263403302913?lang=en

https://mobile.twitter.com/Bucks/status/1425850061435592712?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1425850061435592712%7Ctwgr%5E9da8505e384cd0e80928f28b112aaa51db988b7d%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jsonline.com%2Fstory%2Fsports%2Fnba%2Fbucks%2F2021%2F08%2F12%2Fbucks-surprise-giannis-message-idol-thierry-henry%2F8115702002%2F Justlikesleep (talk) 05:24, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. RealAspects (talk) 10:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

In the "personal life" section where it says "being a supporter of Italian football club Inter Milan". It is not acccurate because Giannis supports Arsenal and idolized Thierry Henry growing up. See [14], [15], [16], [17], and [18]. Justlikesleep (talk) 05:09, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Individual sections for seasons?

Should we split the season sections for Giannis into individual sections for each season, for example, instead of having "Early years in Milwaukee (2013–2016)" we have sections for each year like (2013-14), (2014-15) and so on. MasterMatt12^{💬 ● Contributions} 20:58, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Likely going into too much detail and repetitive individual game stat lines (WP:NOTDIARY) if that is necessary. As an aside, less accomplished players where we see this usually suffer from MOS:OVERSECTION. —Bagumba (talk) 00:18, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2023

His name is pronounced wrong, it is "an-tety-coump-poh" as he said in an interview, his first name is also pronounced Guinness, like Guinness world records. Big big name (talk) 04:59, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: The current pronunciation in the article appears to match the interview, what is wrong with it in particular? I see no source anywhere for the pronunciation of his first name though, are you able to provide one? Tollens (talk) 05:55, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

“The Greek Freak” phrase or linguist reference is a mark or error in the English language that denotes something “freaky” or “superstitious” or whatever freak is in the Wikipedia meta verse. Please remove [18] phrase from this Wikipedia article and update it to The Milwaukee Buck’s basketball player Giannis Attentokoumpo.

history irrelevant 2603:6000:B200:2FDD:747C:9C51:2C79:D9CC (talk) 05:34, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion Linguistics

Please include a full list of the Greek and Nigerian Primary Family of six from the Antetokoumpo Family (his brother who plays on the Milwaukee Buck’s basketball team as “#” 43, said or spoken English as sound iOS Yinnis Antetokoumpo. thank you! Anne Elizabeth Rachwal. 2603:6000:B200:2FDD:747C:9C51:2C79:D9CC (talk) 05:38, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

"Draft:Giannis Antetokounmpo" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Draft:Giannis Antetokounmpo has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 26 § Draft:Giannis Antetokounmpo until a consensus is reached. Mazewaxie (talk • contribs) 07:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Nigerian in the lead

I think Antetokounmpo should only be named as Greek in the lead and the short description. He may have owned double nationality for Nigeria and Greece but he was born in Greece, has competed profesionally for the Greek national team and has lived the majority (if not all) of his life in Greece. Any thoughts on it? 62.74.24.154 (talk) 12:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Sources refer to him as both, and he personally identifies with both. Seems WP:DUE to remain. —Bagumba (talk) 12:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

More sources refer to him as Greek though. Not a coincidence he has been named "Greek Freak". 62.74.24.154 (talk) 12:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't see this as a winner-take-all contest. Greece didn't offer him citizenship for the longest time, and he said he felt like an outsider at times. "Greek Freak" is already in the lead, so readers can think as they choose. —Bagumba (talk) 13:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

It was not done on purpose though, more like that's the system in Greece to not automatically gain citizenship unless you have relevant descent. So I don't think that's a valid argument. 62.74.24.154 (talk) 13:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

It was not done on purpose though ...: I don't see how that justifies denying:

1. His dual citizenship
2. Sources that discuss him being Nigerian
3. Him personally identifying as being both Nigerian and Greek

—Bagumba (talk) 13:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

We go by what the sources say. The sources say Greek-Nigerian. So does he. That's good enough. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

MOS:NATIONALITY says : Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the opening paragraph unless relevant to the subject's notability. Adetokounmpo does not have any career in Nigeria, nor has lived in the country, so how is he prominent for being Nigerian just because of him having the citizenship? It is mentioned both in the infobox and the main body and that's more than enough. 62.74.24.154 (talk) 14:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)