Talk:Fraternities and sororities/Archive 1

Student accommodation

Do all fraternities run student accomodation? Which universities have them (after visiting Priceton, it appears that social life revolves around "drinking clubs". --Robert Merkel 00:48 Sep 30, 2002 (UTC)

In the Uk we see plenty of these in US films & TV, but I'm ratehr confused as to what they actually are. In Buffy they're almost secret societies. In Scream 2 they some sort of accomodation. -- Tarquin 18:10 Jan 2, 2003 (UTC)

They're social organizations which also usually (but not always) maintain their own housing. -- Zoe

Fraternity/Sorority distinction

All-female groups can also be fraternities. For example, Delta Delta Delta is actually a fraternity because it was founded as an independent entity, rather than as a sister sorority to an exisiting fraternity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.67.77.235 (talk) 22:59, 26 August 2003 (UTC)

Other groups

Does this page list only national fraternities and sororities? Also, what about service organizations, such as Alpha Phi Omega? --zandperl 00:06, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• While I think the focus of this page is definitely on the social greeks, there is a list at the bottom for academic and service groups. Perhaps we should make an external page called "service fraternity," and provide a link thereto. Yes/no? David 01 Jun 2004

Naming convention

Do all of the Greek letter TLAs actually stand for something, or are they awarded arbitrarily like radio station callsigns? Lee M 02:25, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• Fraternities and sororities name themselves when they're founded. The reason for choosing whatever particular letters they do is unique to the circumstances of each organization. There is no external body that "awards" the letters. Depending on the organization, the letters might have a public and/or a secret meaning. David

What about providing definitions for expressions like rush, pledge, student intitiation, graduate intitiation, probatitionary period, etc.?

• I added a section on how to join a fraternity or sorority, among others. If those pages get revised longer, we can consolidate in external entries. David

Sorting

How is that list sorted? It looks like it's mostly "alphabetical, by the English (American) spelling of the Greek letter", but Omega is at the end (as in the actual Greek alphabet).

• I'd suggest either "alphabetical, by the English spelling of the Greek letter", or "alphabetical, by Greek letter (with non-Greek-lettered names at the start, on their own)". Either way, consistency is good. {{subst:UnsingedIP|4.16.250.66|22:09, 24 September 2004 (UTC)}}

• I'm torn on the issue. Personally, I prefer the Greek order, but I also know the Greek alphabet. I wouldn't want to confuse someone who doesn't. On the other hand, it could be a teachable moment for that person, and it is consistent with how most fraternity-associated people would display it. I suppose non-Greek letter houses (Farmhouse, Acacia, etc.) would be listed last, by their English spelling? Or maybe first because there's so few of them? BeakerK44 01:06, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I love your expression "teachable moment" Adambisset 14:14, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Other

Is "Kappa Alpha Psiaka" a typo?

Tom Wolfe's "A Man in Full" has characters who were in Omega Zeta Zeta at Morehouse. I don't actually know if this is a fictional fraternity or not -- I'd guess it's fictional, since Google doesn't turn up anything. 2 of the 5 fraternities listed on the Morehouse College webpage (Kappa Alpha Phi and Iota Phi Theta) aren't listed here, either.

So why the Greek letter thing, anyway?

The article mentions the first fraternity to have a greek letter name, but it fails to explain why, why the idea quickly took on across the United States to the almost complete exclusion of any other form of name, and whether the names have any significance or if they're just random letters. —Morven 20:36, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

• I can say it's probably a safe bet that all of the fraternities and sororities names do have significance but most, if not all, keep the significance of their name as part of their ritual. Thus, what looks like random letters to most people, hold reminders or a meaning to the members. Dhuss 16:42, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• The group's letters usually come the first letters of the group's motto. Delta Upsilon, for example, comes from Dikaia Upotheke, the english translation being "Justice our Foundation." Almost all others follow that or a similar pattern.

• • I've always wondered how the fraternities/sororities choose their names. Until I read your explanation, they have all seemed entirely random. But what if the initials of the motto are already in use? — JIP | Talk 06:33, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• • • Then you need to pick another motto. Most groups starting out check the Internet and Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities to see if there is a conflict. a conflict will cause confusion and limit growth. Also, many of the GLOs have trademarks on their Greek Letter Combination. Given that there are over 17,000 possible three letter combinations it isn't viewed as a restraint.Naraht 07:01, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Phi Gamma Delta or Fiji

It has been three times that I have reverted an anon, 68.223.217.139. He (I am assuming he is a member of the fraternity), keeps changinging "Phi Gamma Delta" back to "Fiji" because some rule they have. The article on the fraternity is called "Phi Gamma Delta" they are refered to "Phi Gamma Delta" in all the material I have seen, their website calles them "Phi Gamma Delta", the North American Interfraternity Conference calles them "Phi Gamma Delta". There is no reason why we should call them "Fiji". If the reverting of my reverts continues I will consider it vandalism and seek banning or protection. --The Sunborn

I now understand the dispute to be about three greek letters. I can't see how someone can say that we as an encyclopedia can't use three greek letters in a row. The only way that could be true is if it were a trademark. Even if it were a trademark, we are alowed to report on it as long as there is no dilution. Copyrights can't control three Greek letters. If the anon doesn't talk here, I will ask for a protection of the page.---The Sunborn

Sunborn, I understand your concern about this. Myself, I am a brother of Acacia, but Fiji considers it a matter of respect that they not be referred to by their greek letters by anyone other than themselves. I will contact their national fraternity to ask their stance on it and ask that we honor that stance. — ^neoEinstein 00:32, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

I asked Phi Gamma Delta's national about this topic. Though it is the community's decision how to handle this, here is their feeling on the topic:

^neoEinstein,

Thanks for asking about our Greek letters. I am somewhat amused that the use of our letters has engendered an edit war as you describe it; at the same time, as a compulsive editor myself, I appreciate this attention to detail.

Our name and nickname as displayed on our fraternity page at wikipedia.org are okay as shown currently. Our reference for that type of medium, as with IFC brochures, etc., is to spell out the name of the Fraternity followed by Fiji in parentheses so that those who know us only as one or the other can make the connection.

The display of our Greek letters as currently shown in the list on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternities_and_sororities does not conform with our guidelines. Our reference is to be listed as: Fiji - Phi Gamma Delta.

It's a purple thing...

Bill

Bill Martin

Executive Director

The Fraternity of Phi Gamma Delta

(859) 255-1848

(859) 253-0779 fax

bmartin@phigam.org

I think this might merit additional discussion before any actual changes are made. — ^neoEinstein 23:52, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

I understand the situation with Phi Gamma Delta, and as a brother, I come to this site every once in a while to see exactly how Fiji is listed. Actually I edited the page yesterday (Apr 16, 2005) to reflect what should be the correct entry for Phi Gamma Delta. I personally don't care if it's Phi Gamma Delta (written in English) or Fiji (a nickname we use), but please, out of respect for the fraternity, do not use the Greek letters. The letters may be used in seven *permanent* places, but an online encyclopedia is not one of them. Take a look at the Phigam website and you'll see no occurrences of the Greek letters (even on their OWN website!!). Refer to the Fiji wikipedia article and there you'll find the following passage:

"Phi Gamma Delta distinguishes itself by limiting the use of its Greek letters to seven specific places. The Greek letters representing Phi Gamma Delta are strictly barred by the fraternity from being written outside of a handful of designated places. More commonly, the term Phi Gam or Fiji is used when referring to the fraternity outside of these specific locations."

--Rpckvv 14:54, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Help us clarify, what would those seven "permanent" places be?? ER

Precident states from several places on wikipedia that we don't care what a particular organization feels for repecting of symbols. For instance, the baha'i religion considers it a sin to view the founder's picture outside of a pilgramage. Yet we maintain a picture in full view on wikipedia. Unless copyrights can be exercicsed, we probably won't remove anything potentially informative. Just because you feel a certain way about a few greek letters doen't make you special in the eyes of wikipedia. Still only, The Sunborn

Agreed. However, the Baha'i precedent doesn't quite fit, because they would have been satisfied only by an actual loss of information (completely unacceptable), whereas this involves the transliteration of three greek letters, which is trivial to invert. I wonder if there's a 'forbidden spelling' precedent elsewhere in WP? I wouldn't be surprised if there were, although I've no idea which way it would have been resolved. Personally, I'd consider any demand for information to be removed to be utterly unacceptable, but this doesn't strike me as such a request. In this case, I'd go for whatever everyone else does. After all, if everyone refers to them using Latin letters rather than Greek letters, we should, too. What do newspapers use? How about college websites about fraternities?) If they use Greek letters, then we will (because they're known by the Greek letters, despite whatever the National Office wants), if not, we won't (because everyone knows them as Fiji). jdb ❋ (talk) 04:24, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

While I must apologize to Sunborn if it really was a fellow Phi Gam who threatened him, I must ask that the actuall Greek letters for "Phi Gamma Delta" not be reprinted on this site. It may sound silly to non-Fijis, but we would appreciate it if our Greek letters would not be printed on a website as we have a clear set of guidelines for how they can be listed. It is in no way legally-binding of course, but I'm sure that I can speak for all my graduate and undergraduate brothers that we would appreciate it if the letters were not displayed on this page. While it may sound trivial to non-brothers, it is not trivial to us. As a result, please keep the Phi Gamma Delta, Fiji, Phi Gam (however you want to call it) line as it is. Thank you. - RPH, 5/7/05

There is one thing that must be done then. We must seek wikipedia dispute resolution. The community must decide if the actual greek letters of a fraternity constitutes useful information. If it is decided that it is not useful, all greek letters of all fraternitites will be removed, if they are considered useful, all fraternities must have their letters displayed. -- The Sunborn

I suppose that makes sense, but I would like to point out that you are taking a far too simplified stance in your argument. I believe that the other fraternities should have their actual Greek letters listed on the page because that is a very accurate way to identify them by just glancing at their houses. As best as I know, Phi Gamma Delta is the only Greek fraternity that does not identify itself by use of Greek letters. Whereas just about every single other fraternity displays their letters on their actual house, there isn't a single Fiji in North America that actually does that. Instead of relying on the actual Greek letters to identify our houses, our fraternity uses the Romanized spelling of "Phi Gamma Delta" or just "Fiji" instead. To take away the Greek letters from all the other lines would make little to no sense as it would automatically take away the one of the best ways to identify them. At the same time, keeping the same letters off the Fiji line does make sense, as having such information gives no additional information to those who wish to identify our fraternity. In addition, I would like to point out that having the Greek letters for "Phi Gamma Delta" is not actually useful information as Fiji brothers don't identify themselves by those letters, unlike other fraternities. It would be much more useful if, instead of stating the Greek letters for Phi Gamma Delta, there is a mention instead that our fraternity does not use the actual Greek letters for identification and instead goes by the term "Fiji." - RPH, 5/8/05

Sounds reasonable to me -- we should go with what people recognize. However, our criterion is not how Phi Gamma Delta members refer to themselves, but how other people (since the vast, vast majority of people reading the Fraternities article will not be members) refer to Phi Gamma Delta. If college guides (Princeton Review and the like) and similar materials say 'Fiji', WP should follow suit, if they use greek letters, WP should use greek letters. jdb ❋ (talk) 02:04, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Although in my mind there is no actual legal restriction to the use of the letters, and because I think consistency in entries for each seperate fraternity is essential, I think there may be a way of getting around this issue. Maybe a member of Phi Gamma Delta could clarify if their use of the name "Fiji" is approaching the way "Acacia" is used by that fraternity - my thought here is that publicly, the Greek letters Phi, Gamma and Delta are not considered the name of the fraternity, in the same way that the Latin letters K and S are not the name of the Kappa Sigma fraternity. To use the Greek letters Phi, Gamma and Delta on the page would be unnecessary if this is not their name, as they see it, at this point in their history. I will say though that the fraternity, if they do consider the Greek letters to be their name, and use them as such in specific circumstances, does not have any right to insist that the name be written differently on Wikipedia - their name is publicly known and if it is their name, it should be used when it is the most appropriate way of referring to the fraternity. QuinnHK 23:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Who cares if you misspell some random clique's name, this is ridiculous. - DeMetto

DeMetto, please do not contribute to this discussion unless you have something constructive to say. As for the debate at hand, I think Fiji or FIJI is the most appropriate terminology. I know in most situations on my campus when Greek letters are used, the Latin letters FIJI represent Phi Gamma Delta. (For example, one might have a t-shirt that said "Sponsored by ATΩ, ΣN, and FIJI".) If I asked non-FIJIs, Greek or non-Greek, on my campus where the "Phi Gamma Delta house" was, I guarantee I'd get many, many fewer responses than if I'd asked for FIJI. Many people do wonder about the name thing, so it's worth noting, but I think that the sensible, non-confrontational, and ultimately most accurate answer is to go with FIJI rather than the Greek letters. The only reason not to would be to make it look like the other Greek groups, but as I said, they are notable in being an exception. --SuperNova |T|C| 04:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I just wonder, have any of these [Expurgated the written Greek letters Phi Gamma Delta per Fiji's practice -Citizen Sunshine 04:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)] people asked the inhabitants of Fiji for permission to use the name? The Real Walrus 19:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. Did you ask any O. rosmarus? ;-) --SuperNova |T|C| 06:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't know any Fijians. The Real Walrus 14:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Legal threats

It seems we have a situation of this page and on Phi Gamma Delta. One or more users (one calling himself Diddy on a talk page message addressed to me) are suppressing the Greek spelling of that fraternity's name, with legal threats to boot. I am now blocking that IP (65.10.38.22) for vandalising Sunborn's userpage and making legal threats in edits (on this page) and on my userpage. Other IPs will face banning if they manipulate this (and related) page(s) without respect for the Wikipedia editing process. JFW | T@lk 20:11, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

More needed

Though professional and honorary organizations are mentioned, there is no other information about them.

BryanD 01:43, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree. There are at least four types of undergraduate/college fraternity - social, academic, service and professional. Certainly social fraternities are most common, but the others deserve a more extensive mention.

Hazing

Do we have sources for the returning G.I.s=>frat hazing connection? jdb ❋ (talk) 04:04, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Split out the Fictional Fraternities & Sororities?

I have quite a bit of information of Fictional Fraternities and Sororities and the Movies/TV/etc. that they come from that I'd like to load in, but that will take the overall page over 32K. As Fictional Fraternities and Sororities makes a well defined separate page, I'd like opinions on splitting it out to be its own page. I don't know how to propose this for votes, I'd appreciate advice on that as well.Naraht 2 July 2005 01:20 (UTC)

Go ahead and split them out, please... in fact, I think we should split out all of the lists. This article needs some work. - choster 22:15, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I have made the article Fictional fraternities and sororities.--Commander Keane 12:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I've finished moving the other lists into separate articles, all referenced under "Categories." - choster 01:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Non-Greek Fraternities and Sororities

What's the deal here? I have tried to add a localized Whittier College fraternity (one ouf or 9 fraternities and sororities) several times only to have some guy remove it as "link spam". This is ridiculous as The William Penn Society has a Wikipedia entry and is a legitimate 70 year old organization with enough of a reason to have an entry. The entry is NOT any sort of advertisement and is simply added as information.

Can we have some sort of moderator come in here on this?

Template

Alpha Phi Omega
ΑΦΩ
Founded	December 16, 1925 Lafayette College
Type	Service
Scope	National
Motto	Be a Leader, Be a Friend, Be of Service
Colors	Blue and Gold (Royal Blue and Old Glory Gold)
Symbol	Diamond (jewel) , Golden Eagle (bird), Oak (Tree)
Flower	Forget-me-not flower
Chapters	359 in the United States, ~150 in the Philippines, 20 Petitioning Groups
Cardinal Principles	Leadership, Friendship and Service
Headquarters	14901 E. 42nd St. Independence, Missouri USA
Website	http://www.apo.org

I think it's about time for us to get an Infobox for Greek organizations. Here's the prototype for one I set up on the Delta Upsilon page. Can someone with a little more editing experience set up a template? (I tried for thirty mins. before giving up) Palm_Dogg 20:37, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Already exists, check out Template:Infobox_Fraternity. See Alpha Phi Omega and Sigma Nu for current usage. It is currently being used by over a dozen groups.

Naraht 14:42, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

AWESOME! Another afternoon wasted. Thanks for pointing it out. Have replaced my template with the Infobox for any other interested parties. Palm_Dogg 19:19, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

No problem, always happy to help people waste afternoons. :) Naraht 20:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

National bias?

Is this article meant to be purely about the USA or is it just horribly lobsided? There's a list at the end for fraternities outside the US as sort of an afterthought, but that seems to be it. Are the terms fraternity and sorority typical for the US or has no-one bothered to write about the phenomenon outside the US? DirkvdM 10:28, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

• Fraternities in Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany are distinct from fraternities and sororities in Canada and the United States; they have separate histories and characteristics. I think they would be best treated with separate articles, but this will involve some refactoring which I do not have time to do myself. Perhaps information about the European organizations could be reformulated under the heading of "Student fraternity" ("sorority" being unfamiliar as few women's organizations exist at the European universities) and "Fraternities and sororities" focusing exclusively on the North American system, while retaining "Fraternity" as a disambiguation page for its multiple other meanings. Just a thought. - choster 16:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

They don't exist in the UK as far as I know. Probably some of the older universities have clubs and societies that are more exclusive but technically I think all university clubs and societies have open memberships. Also I'm not aware of any UK university club or society that has its own accomodation, or even their own building. Many universities in the UK will have a Student Union (local branch of the National Union of Students) and this or an equivalent students' body that is intended to represent all students at the university will be given the use of a building (including venue and bars) by the host institution for social events and some offices (often social support is also offered).

The organisational architecture of fraternities and sororities is quite different Europe and differs from country to country aswell. It could be usefull to at least note that this is so. The Dutch article discussing European fraternities in general and Dutch fraternities in specifics can be found at [1]. Djzoos, 18 August 2006

Campus Controversy

Is there a page covering the anti-fraternity backlash on many campuses? If not, we should probably add a section on it. Palm_Dogg 19:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

What country are you referring to? Compare the thread above (well, not much of a thread yet :) ). DirkvdM 07:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Well obviously the great state of Holland! :) Palm_Dogg 14:30, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Ehm, the state Holland (great or not) no longer exists. So did you have a historical section in mind? :) DirkvdM 13:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Social fraternities, at least, have been the subject of criticism for several decades now, often from specific interest groups, both on-campus and off-campus, as well as college/university administrators. The current situation at Colgate illustrates this conflict. Fraternities have been called inherently sexist, anachronistic, etc. A significant focus for the leaders of national fraternities over the past while has been finding a place (dare I say, legitimization) for the existence of their group. Unfortunately, I can't find much on this topic on the 'net on this topic in any one place, but rather, it's scattered all over. QuinnHK 23:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikify

This page reads pretty poorly, as if it WERE actually written by a drunken frat boy. I don't care enough about this topic to edit it, but it should be cleaned up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.242.161.216 (talk) 08:37, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Social Chair

Can someone in the know comment on what to do with that article? I moved it from Risk Management Chairman because that seemed like a less common euphemism, but I'm not even sure it's a viable article. I'm still considering AFD'ing it. - Taxman ^Talk 21:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

This article is nearly useless as it describes functions and responsibilities that are not universal across all chapters and all campuses. - choster 23:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

History

The history section could use some more contemporary information - most of it seems to stop around 1900. Three major topics that I would like to see covered are (a) the response of fraternities and sororities to the civil rights movement of the 1950s (many chapters broke away from their national organizations over the issue of racial integration, for example, and several national African-American fraternities and sororities were started), (b) the movement to introduce coeducational fraternities and/or coeducational alternatives to fraternities and sororities primarily in the 1970s, and (c) the increased anti-hazing and anti-alcohol regulations that swept campuses beginning in the 1990s.--Kharker 16:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I would like to note the Pi Beta Phi was the first Fraternity for women. Created in 1867 before the word sorority was coined. They were from the same college as Kappa Kappa Gamma and should be noted for being pioneers among women in 19th century high eduation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.9.43.67 (talk • contribs) 18:54, May 14, 2006

If you check the history section currently, the I.C. Sorosis group is listed (along with the forerunners to ADPi and Phi Mu) as early women's societies, before the Greek letter names were introduced. If you don't feel that section is clear enough, I would encourage you to elaborate, remembering to hold a neutral point of view by respecting the contributions of the other groups listed there. If you're referring to the first paragraph, I'm not sure why only a few groups were chosen to represent "women's fraternities"; that's bothered me for awhile also, though I'm not sure what the best fix for that would be. Hope this clears things up, though. --SuperNova |T|C| 01:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I noticed a glaring mistake in the history section - In reference to Samuel Eells first intending to charter the NY Beta chapter of Sigma Phi at Hamilton. Samuel Eells instead formed Alpha Delta Phi in distaste in the unscrupolous recruiting activities of the existing two societies on campus. This information is verifiable in many sources of pledge education print material. Edw28 07:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Homosexuality and fraternities

The second paragraph of the Portrayals in Popular Culture section is a bit puzzling to me. It is carefully worded but it still seems like there's a neutrality issue. The idea that paddling is a homoerotic ritual - or even appears to be one - is a bit over-the-top IMHO. The whole paragraph doesn't sit right with me, and it doesn't afford anywhere to mention the fraternities that are specifically targeted to gay, lesbian, and bisexual members (ie, Delta Lambda Phi). -Etoile 17:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Split out Philippines?

Does anyone have any opinion as to whether the Philippines Fraternity and Sororities should be split out at this point? I'd do it in a heartbeat if I had any sort of information beyond simply the list. Naraht 12:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

• It needs a three-way split for the European, North American, and Philippine systems. I'd say European student fraternities are the more urgent to split out, as they are more dissimilar from the other two than they are with each other. What are your thoughts on the names "Student fraternities in Europe," (with suitable redirects), "Fraternities and sororities," and "Fraternities and sororities in the Philippines"? There is no tradition of sororities in Europe, and the most common reference in the English WP is likely to be to the Canadian and US fraternity system on account of size and media references if nothing else. I've been meaning to do this for months but have found time hard to come by.- choster 13:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Upon further research, there seem to be many articles about European fraternities, but they are not all adequately cross-linked: Corporation (university), Studentenverbindung, Nations at Swedish universities, Tuna (corporation), and articles about individual societies which may turn up such as Sakala (academic corporation). Corpo already redirects to Corporation (university). Currently student fraternities redirects to fraternities and sororities when it should probably redirect to Corporation (university), and the fraternity disambiguation article also needs expansion. -choster 20:54, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
    • In my opinion student fraternities should redirect to fraternities and sororities, but only because this is the English version of Wikipedia and the Corporations, other than those in the USA and Canada, are largely, but not entirely non-entirely in non-english speaking countries. Let me know how I can help with this. Naraht 13:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

• I'm splitting out the Fraternities and Sororities of the Philippines. Not there yet, working on it in User:Naraht/Fraternities and Sororities of the Philippines, will move when tablization is done. Naraht 17:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Philippines split out.

I'm finished moving all of the information on the Fraternities and Sororities of the Philippines to a page of that name. Comments and updates welcome. Naraht 18:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

• I moved it to Fraternities and sororities in the Philippines. Unfortunately, I haven't found much information at all about the origins and development of the system, other than it began during the U.S. colonial period.- choster 18:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Understand the uncapping of Sororities, but why the of -> in? Naraht 19:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Canadian Societies

Is this just a US institution, or has it crept across the border to Canada?

ManicParroT 02:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

To my knowledge, many US fraternities and sororities have established chapters at Canadian schools as well, hence the North-American Interfraternity Conference, formerly the "National". I have no idea how successful these chapters are, though. As far as I know, no "national" (more than one chapter) fraternity has ever come out of Canada. Not positive, though. Hope this helps! --SuperNova |T|C| 04:00, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

In my experience, fraternities are rare and not particularly popular in Canada. Certain universities and colleges have similar organizations, but they are more in the way of student service clubs than a true American-style fraternity.

Uhh... that is complete BS. There are fraternities and sororities in Canada. Most of them are international ones based in the U.S., like Tau Kappa Epsilon (4 active chapters in Canada) or Delta Phi Epsilon. There are some local ones too in some Universities. I know that there is at least one fraternity that was founded in Canada and that has 2 chapters.--Lolmaster 03:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

this article seems to be very against frats

why do wikipedia editors seem to resent people who just want to have responsble fun instead of wasting their time at crappy lectures given by proffessors who can't help but hide their hatred of bush? is that what my parents are paying good money for? for me to sit in a big smelly lecture hall with a bunch of druggies listening to some burt out hippy of "proffesor" rant about the "evils" of capitalism--—(Kepin)<sup--75.73.153.252 04:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)>RING THE LIBERTY BELL 00:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Please cite specifics and remain civil. --ElKevbo 01:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. I have found it impossible to let this one go. I am making a leap of logic in my assumption that the author's reference to "parents paying good money" indicates his or her status as a college student.

My suggestion would be for the author's parents to pony up some more money for a remedial English class, where he/she could learn about such things as capitalization, sentence structure and spelling.

While I will never claim to be anything resembling perfect or even pretty darned good, for that matter, I simply feel that if you are going to write, then at least make the effort to try to do it properly.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled life...

--Alcalde 15:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

whatever dude its a fucking computer, and its a discussion page you dont need tyo use proper grammer and the like, i love how you simply critizised the guys grammer instead of actually answer his questions and be helpful, chi chis christ Qrc2006 04:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

How dreadfully uncouth! If one wishes to communicate in a civilised manner, one must lose one's unpleasant aggressiveness, don't you think? Correct spelling and grammar are, of course a given in civilized circles. The Real Walrus 16:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't be a dick.--75.73.153.252 04:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The person who wrote "this article seems to be very against frats", seems to be very against education - ironic really, considering the nature of the article. Thanks, mate: haven't laughed as hard in ages.--Baggie 23:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

More explanation for people from other nations

The concept of fraternities and sororities is quite bizzare for people from non-North American backgrounds (or at least for Australians, like myself). Perhaps the introduction to this article needs more explanation of the basic purpose or rationale of frats, etc. They reveal a lot about US culture: particularly the formalization and ritualization of social relationships (cf. the rituals surrounding dating). Although most of the rest of the world knows about these US rituals through cinema and TV, we look on with some incomprehension.

As stated above, fraternities are rare outside North America, and serve other purposes. In Australia there are student clubs (usually special interest), and student unions represent the student body as a whole to the university administration. Perhaps residential colleges at universities perform a similar function to frats - ie. a place where students can live, and which foster a semi-ritualized sense of history and belonging. Note that these colleges are purely residential, unlike Oxbridge colleges.

I suppose that is another factor in the importance of US fraternities - a place to live. In Australia (and probably many other countries) people tend to stay in their home town to study. In the US it seems quite the norm for people to move to another town or state for their teritary education. Perhaps this needs to be explained in the article.

Anyhow, someone with more awareness of US culture than myself should provide these clarifications in the article.--Iacobus 00:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Strongly agree, at least there could be a mention that European and other non-US fraternities/sororities usually are quite different from their US counterparts. 82.181.61.48 20:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The confusion is that the article claims to cover student societies from around the world when all it does is describe the NA system and then list some token organizations in Europe. Since "sorority" is primarily a Canadian/US term, I have favored focusing this article on the Greek system in North America and pushing the universal material to Corporation (university) (a term utterly unused for these groups in the US and Canada except in the legal sense) or Student fraternity, but to do it properly will take several hours of editing, which unfortunately I have not been able to spare. -choster 14:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

To understand the role of fraternities in the US as an foreigner, it would be helpful to have an estimate how many students (in percent) are probably member of a fraternity. --213.209.110.130 09:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

To list the specific number of members of all groups would be very hard to update, not to mention time consuming as this number changes on a yearly basis by large amounts. I think that information should stay specific to individual pages of Greek groups. Just a suggestion. Jadis96 19:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I am from the UK and I have read this article twice and still don't understand fraternities and sororities at all. I think this still doesn't start from the beginning enough. It's good on history but I still cannot understand what it is that they do. I think a lot of people in the UK have only seen them in american teen programmes and just assume they are like Oxbridge colleges or halls of residence. How far do they compare to Oxbridge colleges? Do you apply to a university through a fraternity like an Oxbridge college and do you have to be part of one to go to university? It would help if this article was written with it more in mind that someone from Britain for example has absolutely no knowledge of fraternities and sororities and no instincive feel for what the are or do whatsoever. Cameronlad 09:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

stereotypes

even thought i know most greeks especially men are easyly antagoniozed by this. i think it has been omitted from the article that frats have a stereotype of being loud boistruous alchoholic sexually devaint morons who cheat their way through school racsim etc in pop culture and their perception by many or at least historically. Qrc2006 03:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure that your statement is true at all colleges. Could you cite what sources you have based that statment on? By the way I am not a Greek man, but I never heard this preception from the majority of people I know so I don't think it is pursusaive enough to include in this site. Jadis96 19:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I think examining pop culture helps display the fraternity stereotype, Animal House, Revenge of the Nerds, and Old School all have fraternity life shown with drinking and sexual behavior. I at this time can not think of a movie pro fraternity. I would try and incorporate this information into the wiki page but I do not believe my editing or writing skills to be wiki level

first "sorority"

Actually, Sigma Kappa Sorority was founded Nov. 9, 1874 at Colby College in Waterville, Maine. Gamma Phi Beta wasn't established until Nov. 11, 1874. Sigma Kappa joined the National Panhellenic Council later on, but Sigma Kappa was the first official sorority.

This is not correct. Every other source I've seen has Gamma Phi Beta listed as the first to actually use the word "sorority". (There were, of course, many -- dozens? -- of "women's fraternities" in existence prior to 1874.) It was coined by a professor at Syracuse, where Gamma Phi was founded, in (it appears) 1882. I have reverted your change to the article until someone can provide a reliable source stating otherwise. --SuperNova |T|C| 14:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Link suggestion

Is this link acceptable for this article (link-owner):

Philosophy and fraternities: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pvosta/pcrhum.htm Pvosta 08:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

popular culture

How is the portrayal of Kappa Kappa Psi in Drumline inaccurate?

Split-off article?

I'm just wondering if maybe a new article should be started for "frat boy/fratboy" instead of having it redirect here. I've been hearing this term used more and more often over the past while, usually referring not so much to male members of fraternities but rather to the stereotypes associated with them - stupid binge-drinking irresponsible teenage boys. For example, someone might say "'adult-oriented' cartoons today are only aimed at the fratboy demographic". Esn 08:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

DISPUTED:Join a black...

Doesn't that sound a little... I dunno, racist? Racial? I don't have any suggestions ("African-American") but just pointing out that it sounds really awkward. Joining a historically black maybe... The use of the word black makes me uncomfortable.--Htmlism 19:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a trend on the NHPC website to prefer "black," "historically black," or "African American" in reference to their or other Greek organizations. Perhaps the distinction is there and it's too subtle for me to notice. If anyone more knowledgable of Greek terminology can help, please do so! --ElKevbo 20:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The two paragraphs in this section are false. I am a member of Alpha Phi Alpha and I can say for certain that its common knowledge who is pledging for each NPHC organization during the entire pledge process. Ccson 03:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I know that part of it (don't tell anyone you're pledging) is true for some black sororities. Maybe it is only common for sororities or some other subset of black greek organizations? --ElKevbo 03:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

When did you join? It seems that pledging is illegal. As given by the NPHC. [2]. 172.191.196.211 05:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The text specified sugguest this practice is standard for all NPHC groups and personal knowledge can't be cited. I know this isn't true because all pledges walk around campus in a single line, dressed the same and carrying different symbols of the organization to indicate they are pledging. When I was pledging we greeted the pledge lines of AKA and Delta Sigma Theta, Omega Psi and Kappa Alpha Psi. There was nothing secret about it. (this is personal knowledge, but I'm not asking that it be placed in the article). Sometimes suspended chapters will conduct "underground' plegde lines and in this case they will tell the pledges not to mention their status, but this is not represenative of the fraternity since the pledge line is illegal and the line would not be recognized by the national organization. Can you be specific on which organization has this practice, however; this practice would not be indicative of black organizations, just the particular practice of an individual organization. Basically, we need a verifiable and reputable source for these statements to remain in the article.Ccson 17:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

When did you pledge? It says pledging is illegal.[3].

Many of the items discussed in this portion of your article refer to traditions that have long been disestablished by the majority of the National Pan-Hellenic Council Organizaitons. The tradition of secret pledging lines were outlawed by most organizations. Today, the membershp procedures are very structured (and monitored by representatives of the National organizations).

Some local chapters do continue the tradition of performing a probate show once membership has been completed where neophytes (new initiates) perform step routines or chants. These are not required or sanctioned by the National organziations.

For additional information on membership in Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, please review [4]. For information on Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity and pledging, please review [5]. Absolon S. Kent 17:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Majority is not all, however; the question is whether national programs ever required pledges to hide thier intentions.. Are you referring to the statements I made on this talk page or the text in the article that's being questioned. I know how the pledge process works now, however; the dubious part of the article is whether an accepted aspirant can divulge his intentions while aspiring to become a member, whether today or 100 years ago and if it warrants a special section different from white fraternal groups. The second doubt is whether the neophytes perform the probate show in a mask to purposely hide their identity and if jokes are made, today or 100 years ago. Plus, I didn't know that secret pledge lines were ever "lawful" by a national organization, but they still exists in the 21st century. I simply added that as a possibility of why user Elkevbo might have been told by someone that their pledging was a "secret". If there's any truth that some groups official policy is/was to keep secret the names, then this should be included as a historical account of what did occur and then some text on the new intake process and why the change occurred. But, the info must have a verifable and reputable source, and it should be specific to that group, not a generic account of black frat/soror intake process. Ccson 19:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I say keep insert citation needed 172.191.196.211 05:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

This web site Black Greeks shows fraternities and sororities as far back as the 60s with pledges line around campus. I propose that the two paragraphs in the article be removed by Saturday unless someone can find verifiable and reputable sources that contradict the web site and the books from which the information was obtained. Ccson 05:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

what is a strong source? 172.191.196.211 05:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Per previous comments, this section should be removed this week if no one gives a valid reason to keep it. besides the paragraph's generalization, being written poorly, it was clearly lifted, almost entirely, from a blog with the same title and then retro-cited.-Robotam 04:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Correcting grammar isn't going to change the problem, as detailed above, that the information presented is dubious at best, when not false. The cites, placed by an easily-traced sockpuppet, actually seem to be quite weak; the main cites are to an unattributed web FAQ[6] that was lifted from a now-defunct blog (not to be confused with the blog that is cited as a source in the second paragraph[7]), and the University of Central Arkansas "Greek Dictionary" web page written as a general, non-definitive guide for students joining greek organizations on UCA's campus. Thanks for your input, though!-Robotam 04:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

That second reference is an archive of a page that no longer exists. Also, simply adding the links on this talk page isn't really enough; if they are reliable sources then they should be added to the main article. They do no good here to the average reader. —ScouterSig 05:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Then unless there are objections from any other (non-sockpuppet) editors, the text will be removed by Wednesday, unless it is replaced in a factual, NPOV and reliably sourced manner. The text as it is does not reflect that. Note: this does not mean replace the same text with varied footnotes and links of sockpuppet Mykungfu. The text was slated to be removed months ago; there is no wiki requirement to keep the discussion going in perpetuity, especially when the text at issue is dubious. Edits by sockpuppets are not subject to 3RR; there is also no requirement to keep incorrect text in an article as a placeholder. -Robotam 22:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

After reviewing the sources you cite I would also recommend removal of this section. These sources do not meet Wikipedia's standards of reliability and the information discussed, as noted earlier, seems only to serve to as an attempt to make Black fraternities and sororities different. Since documented evidence has been provided that this is not the policy of the organizations it is dubious and should be removed.
Absolon S. Kent 03:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Again you are referring to practices that are no longer sanctioned or authorized by any organzition. This is the equivalant of saying the Article on Mississippi should have a section about legalized slavery because it used to exist there. I still support removal.

NPHC Joint Statement against hazing.

Absolon S. Kent 12:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Without addressing the Mykungfu sockpuppet-like "irrational" ad hominem, the proposed cites to Mssrs. Jones and Kimbrough have nothing to do with either the generalizations or incorrect assertions within the text; even if accepted as fact, the section heading (in generalizing about African-American GLOs) assumes that the purported information is exclusive to "joining a Black Fraternity," when it is not.-Robotam 17:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I see that your account was just created; Welcome to Wiki ThickSexy. As a member of Phi Delta Psi, "built on the founding purpose of initiating men for the content of their character rather that the thickness of their hide," were you required to keep your "status as an aspirant...a secret throughout the entire pledging process?" Would your organization have denied membership to you if your "identity as an aspirant ha[d] been revealed to anyone other than the members and other pledges of the organization itself? Were you required to wear a mask? I ask because as I understand it, Phi Delta Psi was specifically founded (and of course you already know this a a member) seeking to operate in a way completely different than your founders' perceptions of several existing fraternities. But then, I suppose that is the problem with the generalizations of the disputed text. BTW, no one has been called a name, have they?-Robotam 18:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Not sarcasm--the words you are implying are offensive were respectfully taken from the national website of Phi Delta Psi. The fact that membership rituals vary per organization is yet another reason that the section is ridiculous. Again, no one called anyone a name--but throwing around "irrational" rather than dealing with the issue of the dubious text is not constructive, and, very much like the before mentioned sockpuppet, which I would hope none of us would be foolish enough to emulate. I would hope that you would not none of us would be one so dishonorable as to use sockpuppets, or seek to paint another editor as irrational or a "name caller" in the hopes of bolstering your our point.-Robotam 19:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge Pledge Paddle

I don't think the article Pledge Paddle should be merged with the Hazing section of this article, because paddles nowadays often have little to nothing to do with initiatory rituals. The pledge paddle in today's greek system bears more of a symbolic representaion of the member having attained full member status, and after graduation is often displayed prominently in that member's home as a symbol of their pride and membership in that Fraternity or Sorority. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Soulsrocker (talk • contribs) 02:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

I also think that the article Pledge Paddle should remain independent of the section on hazing. My reasoning for this is very similiar to the Soulsrocker's reasons. I would also like to add that many NPC sororities (not sure about fraternities or NPHC groups) are even getting away from calling them paddles instead refering to them as "plaques" or "wall hangings". I know is many sororities not only are they a way to show membership after graduation, but are often gifts on important occasions (initation, birthdays etc) because they can be displayed. Just an opinion of course. Jadis96 04:37, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Although the Pledge paddle originated as a common tool for fraternity hazing, contemporary hazing includes a vast array of practices that don't involve physical beatings with paddles. In many Greek Letter organizations, pledge paddles are now recognized as a symbol for being fully accepted by the group/ (This is true even in academic/honors fraternities that do not haze). Also, most (if not all) hazing deaths result from means other than brutal beatings (particularly the forced consumption of alcohol) so it would be problematic to conceptualize pledge paddles as directly synonomous with hazing, or vice versa. If anything, we should create a separate page for "Pledgeship." I was shocked when I typed it into Wikipedia and did not even find so much as a redirect! M. Frederick 06:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Most fraternities "Alcohol Free?"

Seems like a highly dubious statement. Are there any citations to back up this claim? I would like to remove this one sooner than later, if possible.-Robotam 18:02, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

If there's no citation, remove it. --ElKevbo 18:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Done.-Robotam 19:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Good thing you provided a full two hours before deleting that contributor's work. I agree--his/her statement that frats are alcohol free seems to fly in the face of conventional wisdom. Perhaps the point was to note that many fraternity chapters are now officially "dry."

http://www.geocities.com/afhalliance/AFHsupport.htm

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=7342&pid=683

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20000818fraternity3.asp

Being "dry" simply means that the fraternity's national headquarters officially passed a motion to announce publicly a new policy that bans alcohol on house property. Presumably it will take more than a bylaw amendment to convince some college binge drinkers to curb their drinking habits; still, it's somewhat troubling the way wikipedians seem more impatient when uncited sources appear to contradict, rather than perpetuate, popular stereotypes. M. Frederick 05:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

HISTORY INFORMATION

• Fraternities and sororities in North America was cut and pasted from Fraternities and sororities at 13:30, 19 January 2012. This history-merge cannot be done, because I must first delete Fraternities and sororities temporarily to lose WP:Parallel histories edits made after the cut-and-paste point, and I cannot make this delete because the page has too many edits and I am not a steward. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:09, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
  • @Anthony Appleyard: I just discovered this problem while doing some database queries. Recent software changes have made the revision counter far more accurate, and because the page actually had less than 5,000 revisions, I've just done the history merge. Thanks for dealing with the talk page. Graham87 09:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Hazing issue and modern porn websites

I have become concerned about the growing number of websites that depict hazing in a more and more dramatic way. Specifically I'm referring to sights like hazehim.com where pledges supposedly are forced to do sex acts with brothers. I thinking there most be many students and parents out their thinking this stuff is real..since they claim it is "real". I prepared the following lines to be inserted in the paragraph hazing. I will let someone else elect whether to add them or not.

Proposed lines: This said, the degree and extent that hazing still exists is far from the fantasy world of pornography. Many videos now flood the internet with staged scenes and paid actors claiming to demonstrate "real" college life events. Some prospective students may be intimidated from joining a Fraternity or Sorority as a result of these web-sites that are largely described as being a "scam".

Philip Maise, former President Theta Xi, member Delta Lambda Phi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbmaise (talk • contribs) 07:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

A new section was created about Anti-Hazing to avoid systemic biases and give other sides of fraternity and sorority life. RossAGoldberg1 (talk) 21:04, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

First Cultural Fraternities

Looking at the correction for the claims in Line 122 for the first cultural fraternities, I ask if they are limited to active fraternities and limited to the continental USA?

• Before Alpha Phi Alpha in 1906, Alpha Kappa Nu was the first African American fraternity, founded in 1903, followed by Gamma Phi, founded in 1905. Both of them are defunct.
• Before Phi Iota Alpha, Sigma Iota (even though it merged into Phi Iota Alpha) was first in continental USA. And, in active life, Phi Eta Mu from Puerto Rico (which is USA, although not continental) was founded in 1923, 8 years before Phi Iota Alpha.

I think that the line should be amended with a language such as "active groups in the continental USA." --Coquidragon (talk) 14:08, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Citations

There are citations to books in the article that aren't listed at the bottom. It would seem sensible to make a consistent style of citation (using ref tags preferably, and citing page as well as book) and try to rescue the missing cites. Stifle (talk) 08:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Philanthropy examples

I think that we should remove the examples. It is turning into a pointless laundry list because everyone wants to see their organization listed. NYCRuss ☎ 17:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree. It looks terrible and ridiculous; all the Philanthropy should be listed on the organization's personal page -Dam1en

Appropriate photos for this article

It seems to me to be highly inappropriate to use this page to promote a single chapter, as was done yesterday with the Bowling Green State KAs. I believe that an attempt should be made to either show more inclusive photos, or to at least display photos without giant banners that shout the organization's name. NYCRuss ☎ 06:34, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the KA pictures as promotion any more than any of the other pictures on the page (alpha kappa alpha, alpha xi delta), nor greek organization cited in the body. The opening picture is of Tau Kappa Epsilon and Kappa Alpha, I would call that a picture promoting greek unity rather than promoting a single chapter. The lower picture goes with a philanthropic event. Others are free to post pictures of their own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brewski919 (talk • contribs) 06:41, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it doesn't fit and should clearly be taken down.

The Alpha Xi picture doesn't even make it clear what organization it is, as it simply is reinforcing the article. The AKA pledge pin is also reinforcing the article. Neither of the photos that you posted are able to relate to the article without captions, and both unnecessarily are dominated by the letters of one or two organizations. Posting two pictures that feature one chapter on this page is clearly WP:PROMOTION. NYCRuss ☎ 06:51, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps finding some images of extremely prototypical chapter houses and commenting on common architectures found in greek housing is appropriate.

Gay/lesbian issues within frats?

We should work gay and lesbian attitudes towards fraternities & sororities as well as Greek attitudes towards gays and lesbians into this article. This link has some potentially useful information. What do you guys think? --- cymru lass ^{(hit me up)}⁄_{(background check)} 21:31, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there general shared opinion on fraternities and sororities by the GLBT community. Maybe something about GLBT specific Greek organizations but I'm not familiar with those. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brewski919 (talk • contribs) 06:48, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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Popular Culture

Should "American Pie: The Naked Mile" not be mentioned here? It's part of a series of films that are engrained in the younger generation and focusses substantially on rivalry between fraternities. JonD93 (talk) 22:40, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Well the pop culture section of this article is a bit barren compared to the amount of greek themed entertainment there has been over the years. I think the films mentioned are very notable in how they showed greek life and are major motion picture releases. The naked mile and beta house(which lets face it was terrible) were straight to DVD sequels and will be less notable throughout the years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brewski919 (talk • contribs) 11:53, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I thought this was an interesting quote

I just added the following to the Fraternities and sororities#Rituals and symbols section, based on this ref (with a little help from this other ref):

For example, writer Julian Hawthorne, the son of Nathaniel Hawthorne, wrote (in his posthumously published Memoirs) of an ironic coincidence surrounding his fraternal initiation:

I was initiated into a college secret society—a couple of hours of grotesque and good-humored rodomontade and horseplay, in which I cooperated as in a kind of pleasant nightmare, confident, even when branded with a red-hot iron or doused head-over heels in boiling oil, that it would come out all right. The neophyte is effectively blindfolded during the proceedings, and at last, still sightless, I was led down flights of steps into a silent crypt, and helped into a coffin, where I was to stay until the Resurrection...Thus it was that just as my father passed from this earth, I was lying in a coffin during my initiation into Delta Kappa Epsilon.

As I noted in an embedded comment, I used the possibly clumsy approach of embedding an extra ref within the blockquote in order to include the following context that I thought important to include: "This was, of course, all very collegiate for that long-ago time, and—with the exception of the 'red-hot iron' and 'boiling oil' references, if taken too literally—quite typical."

Anyone know of a better way to do this? I realize I could have been more wordy and put the context into the body of the article itself, but I was hoping for some other alternative. Thanks 67.101.7.123 (talk) 21:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

What is the general public opinion towards those questionable organizations?

I live in a country where there are no such things as fraternities or sororities, so I was wondering what is the general public opinion towards them. Is it positive or negative, because the article didn't really say. For me personally it looks simply like a legitimate way for some kids to establish their superiority to the others, which I think is a very disturbing thing. The fact that universities approve the existence of organizations, based on the social status of their students is even more disturbing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.43.30.53 (talk) 14:48, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Who said anything about superiority? They are mainly just social groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.129.202 (talk) 04:22, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

That's about right. There is certainly a class issue involved. People outside of these organizations often see them just as you've suggested. The people invovled often have very hard times dealing with any sort of criticism of them though. It has an air of cultishness to it.

It honestly depends on different factors. For instance, fraternities and sororities may be social, professional, honorary or service. Also, different schools may promote different Greek environments. GlaciesofPacis (talk) 16:30, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Studying baptism

First, excuse me for my bad english. My question is : is the USA fraternities are equivalent to our "studying baptism", here in Belgium. The common point may be:

- Lots of alcohol
- Hazing (endurance test, psychological and physical tiredness)
- Secret, closed group
- Reconnaissance signs

Jeanterre —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.247.178.112 (talk) 20:38, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

To all the points, it really depends. For instance, there are many dry (no alcohol) organizations, particularly among non-social fraternities and sororities. As for the point about a secret, closed group, the Delta Upsilon fraternity is completely open. Their ritual book is online, which they say is to promote the feelings of non-secrecy. Hazing, there are certainly instances of hazing (many more than are reported), but most campuses have zero-tolerance approaches to hazing, meaning that if an organization is found to have hazed someone, they may be suspended or may have their charter revoked. I'm afraid I don't know what reconnaissance signs are, could you enlighten me please? GlaciesofPacis (talk) 16:42, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

First Sorority

On the page the first sorority is said to be Kappa Alpha Theta, but on this page it states it was established in 1870. Alpha Delta Pi on the other hand is said to be established in 1851. There seems to be a contradiction to what sorority was established first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamabigboy360 (talk • contribs) 22:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Good catch. Even this GDI knows that ADPi was the first sorority. ElKevbo (talk) 23:32, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

First Non-denominational Sorority

On the page about soroities it is said that "In 1913, at Hunter College, New York, Phi Sigma Sigma became the first non-denominational sorority, allowing any woman, regardless of race, religion, or economic background into membership.[citation needed]" This is true and a citation should be added as Skyesong (talk) 14:58, June 26, 2011‎

Initials must be entirely unique

I could track this down later, but I'm pretty sure (and the Article doesn't mention this yet) that the initials must be completely unique even across different types of organizations. Consider Beta Beta Beta Biology Honor Society, of which I happen to be a member. I'm pretty sure that not even a social organization (let alone another honor society) can be founded with the exact same initials. The same would work in reverse (a newly founded honor society can't reuse a social frat's initials either). (This would go without saying within each type of organization.) Can anyone perhaps suggest where sources on this may be located? Don't get me wrong: I'll also look. I'll see if I can work this into the Article if true. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 23:38, October 1, 2011

My experience is that this happens all the time. From a practical standpoint, few founding members have the wherewithal to do an exhaustive search of all the names of the national and local societies out there. Baird's is an incomplete reference, and so is Wikipedia. Many of the resulting locals that chose an already-used name will die out. Established fraternities and sororities commonly exercise their trademark rights to protect logos or will protect their names in certain font and color arrangements, while it is less likely that they can require a cease and desist order on the Greek names themselves. But a new local chapter may have difficulty filing a name with their secretary of state if it conflicts. I'll give you an example. There is a small national fraternity called Phi Sigma Phi, with ten chapters, Hartwick College has a local sorority which picked the same name. I don't know its age, but suspect it is fairly recent. But to your point, there are 'clean' corporate names and there are those that are otherwise, and when it gets to the point of difficulty, some of these fight it out in the courts. Jax MN (talk) 16:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

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Hazing

An editor, User:Bali88, recently added links to hazing deaths and expanded language about this scourge. I don't want to minimize it because it still plagues chapters across the country and requires constant vigilance. Still, hazing appears to me to be one of those subjects that gets whipped up by the media and by campus officials into a frenzy, regardless of whether the incident itself is that severe. --A midnight recitation of the names of the founders should not be given the same punishment as a pledge death. Greek leaders know that small misguided traditions can quickly lead to large ones, so they responsibly nip things in the bud. It therefore becomes an opportunity to teach, and a witch hunt is an overreaction.

Thankfully, severe hazing events are still so rare that a single event is picked up as national news, and repeat events may not happen elsewhere for months or years.

I edited the main page dialog to reference the many other places where hazing occurs, and to note that national fraternities and sororities work hard to stamp it out. I think my language is more fairly weighted.

Bali88 has spent considerable time researching matters of criminality, including hazing. So I think his/her edits are in good faith. He/she recently added a template link to one of the national fraternities citing a hazing death in 1894. While tragic, this event is so far disassociated from us today that the perpetrators grandchildren are by now old men themselves. Recent examples are far more relevant, and hence, I think these references should be cut off at some point as not meeting the bar of trivial linkage - even though no death is ever trivial. Maybe we can agree to retain mention of these events, if they occur and are wp:notable, at 20 years or less? Jax MN (talk) 16:20, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I do have an interest in crime articles and have written a significant number of them, but I also have done a lot of work improving articles regarding fraternities and sororities and have substantially rewritten at least a couple of them. I added the link because I thought members of said organizations/universities may have some interest in reading about these events. I can assure you that I added the links in good faith and not to promote any specific agenda. When I add links to pages (or make any edits for that matter), I do it with the assumption that editors who are extensively involved with a specific page may remove the link if they don't feel that it fits with the direction they feel the page should go. I will not be offended by the removal of any links that I've posted, and if there is consensus that a certain time frame that should be abided by, I will certainly post within that. :-) Bali88 (talk) 18:03, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Hazing sources

I wasn't able to find any sourcing for the newly added information. In my research, I did find sources that various groups have made big changes to their organizations to stop the practice, but I haven't found any source that lists specifically how much it has been reduced across the board in the greek system or that certain hazing practices, like paddling, are rare. I'm also uncomfortable singling out black fraternities and sororities without sources either. I'm going to trim it back a bit until sources can be located. Bali88 (talk) 21:23, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I'd cited the higher prevalence of hazing in the NPHC fraternities (traditionally black) because of an article I read, but sadly no longer have the reference. It may have been from the NPHC itself. I had a roommate once that was an Omega Psi Phi, and he said virtually all undergrad pledges had to get branded. From that point on I perked up when reading occasional hazing stories, and noted that incidents were split pretty evenly between the mainstream NIC fraternities and the NPHC fraternities - even though there are far fewer NPHC fraternities. (Yes, I know many of these have joined the NIC lately.) I'd leave this point, and insert a "citation needed" link. The NIC may also be able to steer us toward a reference. Jax MN (talk) 01:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I've read that before and it's definitely relevant. However, I'd really like to have some solid numbers on how prevalent it in in NPHC groups vs. others before we post that. Someone's opinion that NPHC groups are committing more crimes than the rest of the greek community...I'm hesitant to post that without some solid data we can base that on and even then we need to do it with care. I did find one study that listed the numbers on hazing, but I'm dubious as to whether their numbers are correct. It said like 78% of greeks were hazed and like 50% of general college students. To me that sounds high. For instance, on their questionnaire they asked: "have you played drinking games". I know drinking games play a big role in many hazing deaths, but there was no indication that they were asking the question in a way that separated voluntary drinking games for fun from some sort of fraternity dictated drinking games that you can't opt out of. I'm suspicious that the numbers were off because of that. I mean, I played a lot of drinking games, and a number of them were with my sorority sisters, but none of them were what I would consider hazing. Bali88 (talk) 03:07, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Uum...

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This Article emphasizes "for undergraduate students" in the Lead, and yet, while I myself am now a graduate student rather than an undergrad, several (at least 3) social frats on my campus have said they would strongly consider taking me nevertheless. Yes, I did tell them in full disclosure that I was a grad student, and they (chapter officers) still said that.

Now, if this is an extremely rare case and I'm just that good a sweet talker, maybe we can omit it from the Article. Alternatively, maybe we can say "at some Universities based on campus policy graduate students can also be considered" or something else like that.

...Or, better yet, maybe we can open with "for mostly undergraduate students" or something like that.

...And if 1 of these 3 actually comes to fruition with a Bid, I will definitely let my fellow Editors of this Article know. Just saying, just pointing out this admittedly rare case.

Whatever, I think "mostly" and maybe a note about how it varies by campus policy would solve this just fine. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 07:18, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I know of Social fraternities that accept Law and Med students, my own included. El Johnson (talk) 18:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd be glad to make the changes, but we need something more solid (not that you aren't a great guy, but Eljohnson15 has yet to be added to the list of reliable sources. lol) If you can find a source, we'll do it. Bali88 (talk) 18:42, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

First off, I'm not usually this sloppy. I was kind of halfway to Margaritaville (or more accurately CalicoAndCokeVille) when I posted that comment.

Anyway, I don't think my Bid will count as a source even when one of these 3 frats does Bid me, because even then it would be OR albeit anecdotally valid OR. Am I correct about that?

Nevertheless, if El Johnson were to provide a copy of his organization's National Constitution, where it most likely does state that graduate students can be accepted at the discretion of the local chapter (and that's probably where he read it even though he himself is not a reliable source until he produces his source), that should be a good enough source to add the word "mostly" to the Lead. After all, one organization's Constitution is as good a source as any other organization's Constitution. How is that idea? The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 21:16, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Works for me! See what you can find. Bali88 (talk) 21:20, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is a link to ΦKT, and a downloadable version of their Constitution: http://www.phikappatau.org/learning/chapter-management/constitution-and-bylaws.html. Exact quote: "Membership Qualifications. Any male student not a member of a national college fraternity other than an honor society or professional fraternity who is pursuing undergraduate, post-graduate, or professional study" (Emphasis added). Does anyone object to using this as a source (clearly not the only example, but still a reliable source) and adding the word "mostly" in front of "undergraduate"? The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:28, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nonsense?

The first words of the History section of this article appear in the sub section entitled Beginnings, They are:

The Phi Beta Kappa Society, founded on December 5, 1776, .. 
is generally recognized as the first Greek-letter student society ... 
It was founded by John Heath, who had failed at admission 
to the two existing Latin-letter fraternities 

Shouldn't the beginning begin at the beginning? What were the first "Greek-letter student societies"? Are these numerically identical with the Fraternities and sororities in North America that this article is about? If not then what were the first Fraternities and sororities in North America? The article also doesn't begin with much of an exxplanation of what they are other than defining them as "social clubs". So are these like Playboy clubs or Working Mens Clubs or Derby and Joan clubs or Freemason lodges or what?! LookingGlass (talk) 18:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Cheating

An anonymous editor inserted a weakly-cited blurb about academic cheating at an Arizona public university, title and link only, creating an entire new subheader to impugn the entire American collegiate fraternity and sorority system. I've removed the section, and reposted here for review and further discussion, if warranted. The item was as follows:

(Set within a new subheader)

Fraternity and sorority members are the students most likely to cheat in college., with several studies showing that fraternities and sororities have the highest documented rates of cheating and academic dishonesty among students.

This is garbage. First, the correct citation for the first reference ought to be something like this: It speaks to the faculty response and resultant obligation to address perceived academic dishonesty at this particular school, studying the survey responses of a sample of 2,000 students, again at that particular school. No raw data is presented, nor does it have a focus on fraternities and sororities. The single line that does mention Greeks is in the fifth paragraph which reads "[The study] found the highest rates of cheating among fraternity and sorority members and international students, the latter of whom were most likely to use technology to cheat." No further data was provided to understand this result in relation to the baseline, regarding Greeks, though international students in that sentence are similarly impugned as leaders in use of technology to cheat, 21% versus 11%, which I assume is their baseline. --The baseline for International students.

The second reference is worse, with a pathetically small sampling size of 244 students in a study from 2002.

I just don't think this is an issue that should be so cavalierly hung around the necks of the Greeks. Academic cheating may indeed be on the rise, especially in the vacuum where students are not taught a value system like that which informed their parents or grandparents. The first article cited in fact quotes a senior associate dean in her alarm that more professors didn't discuss academic integrity issues in class. I also wonder about that. I'd like to know, too, if there are variances regionally around the nation, or at public vs. private schools, or among those with or without a religious moral center. But to twist this into an anti-Greek conclusion is unwarranted. One would think that, since the utter implosion of the fraudulent gang rape story impugning Phi Kappa Psi was published by Rolling Stone magazine, that anti-Greek partisans would be more cautious in choosing stones to throw. Jax MN (talk) 19:37, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

References

No mention of "Party"

It seems odd to me that we can have an article about frats without any mention of parties, which seems like a fairly significant part of what they do. I get that they do other things like instill a sense of honor and that sort of shit, but they also tend to have lots of parties. Ideally, there should be a description of all the idiot words they use for the various types of parties, such as "formals" and "raids." Dingsuntil (talk) 10:30, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Additions to Multicultural Fraternities

I made some changes to this section. I decided to add Sororities and I discussed the history and adoption of the National Multicultural Greek Council including their standards and goals, yet more should be added about it's history and what not Kelseymar (talk) 20:30, 12 October 2015 (UTC)kelseymar

Requested move 21 October 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. The consensus was to move this and expand it to cover a worldview as it is presently the best developed article on the topic we have. No histmerge was necessary because the target history only had cut-and-paste moves from this article that were quickly reverted and fiddling with redirects. Jenks24 (talk) 12:48, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

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Student fraternities and sororities in North America → Fraternities and sororities – Undiscussed page move, edits have been made since the move. – MSJapan (talk) 19:52, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Jenks24 (talk) 11:08, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• This article appears to have been moved back and forth several times, often as a cut-and-paste move, so I don't think this can be considered clearly uncontroversial. Noting that when at RM/TR there was a bit of discussion about whether a histmerge was required, but ultimately I don't think it's necessary. Pinging MSJapan in case he or she wants to add anything now that it's at a full discussion. Jenks24 (talk) 11:08, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

There is already the generic word Fraternity for that. The contents of this article, however, seems to be about student fraternities and sororities in North America? Chicbyaccident (talk) 11:35, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: the article seems pretty exclusively about student fraternities in the US and Canada, and not anywhere else. There is a bizarre cavalier assertion in the lede that asserts they don't exist anywhere else. Of course there are. Plenty. Any German (and many others) would laugh at that assertion. Walrasiad (talk) 06:12, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
• Support the move, or else reworking our articles on fraternities and sororities. We have an article on fraternity. Sorority, sororities, and fraternities and sororities all redirect here. As such, there's really no need for the longer name: anyone who types in or clicks on the shorter names is coming here already. I don't think there is currently a better location for "sororities" or "fraternities and sororities" to point to, as sororities don't really exist outside of the college Greek-letter organizations discussed here. The title is further incorrect as it contains some discussion of fraternities and sororities outside of North America.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:10, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I came here to close this, but it's not really a move discussion so much as an editorial discussion. There are two articles involved - the one on Fraternities and sororities which has been suppressed by redirects, the scope of which is fraternities and sororities in general, and Student fraternities and sororities in North America, the scope of which is fraternities and sororities in North America. Given the existence of articles: Studentenverbindung, Fraternities and sororities in Canada, List of fraternities and sororities in France, and List of fraternities and sororities in Puerto Rico, it appears there may be some sense in having a more general article on fraternities and sororities - perhaps called Fraternities and sororities or perhaps called Fraternities and sororities worldwide. I think the first discussion is one regarding the scope of our fraternities and sororities articles - should there just be one, which incorporates all fraternities and sororities worldwide, or should there be one for each country where there are such societies, and should there be a general one, or perhaps a disambiguation page? Having decided on the scope for the articles, the title can perhaps be more easily agreed. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:27, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of anything else, if this article doesn't end up returning to the title "Fraternities and sororities", the old title shouldn't be left as a redirect here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:28, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose original proposal – The title is precise enough. I removed just "student" from the title of the article because it never had one for a long time. Also, this article discusses frats and sororities in the US (and Canada if applicable). --George Ho (talk) 16:25, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Sorry it took me time to find this - the redirects are extremely problematic now. The move problem is unilateral moves, and edits to the lede that muddy the focus. This needs to be a general top level article. What happened the last time was that it was moved twice without discussion, and the lede was expanded to include fraternal orders, which weren't covered in the article at all. Why is was then limited to North America was also the same author unilaterally moving the article because I commented that most people associate "fraternity" with college campuses. There are important distinctions between fraternities, fraternal orders, etc., and they weren't being addressed. This is what happens when editors act on their own without regard for precedent or discussion. I think we need to move it back to a general title, move-protect the page, and then hash out the editorial scope. MSJapan (talk) 22:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
• Support, supporting the implied expansion of scope to include worldwide coverage of fraternities and sororities, particularly the Philippines, in one article. That is, merge with the history behind the redirect at Fraternities and sororities. It doesn't matter that the material is dominated by North America, at the top level the coverage should be broadest. The article here seems to be by far in best shape. It only needs sections added for fraternities and sororities elsewhere. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:47, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Neutrality

There are a number of statements in this article that appear to promote a point of view that is critical to fraternities and sororities. These are represented as statements of fact, but might better be organized under a “controversies” section. The following statements in particular caught my attention. Under the sub-heading “Homogeneous membership” • “organized for the benefit of a largely white, upper-class membership base”

         o	As whites are 63% of the U.S. population, so it should not be surprising that such organizations are majority white. 
         o	The demographics of membership is not an essential to what fraternities and sororities are.
         o	That such fraternities and sororities are organized for the benefit of whites is not substantiated by the cited reference.

• Members of fraternities and sororities disproportionately come from certain socio-economic demographics, which perpetuates an unhealthy divisiveness within the student body

         o	The term  “perpetuates an unhealthy divisiveness” clearly expresses a negative point of view and states an opinion as a facts in violation of Wikipedia’s neutrality principle.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thucydides2 (talk • contribs) 04:01, 23 January 2017 (UTC) 

First residential chapter home?

The article states that 'The first residential chapter home to be built by a fraternity is believed to have been Alpha Delta Phi's chapter at Cornell, with groundbreaking dated to 1878.' Unless I'm misinterpreting what exactly this means, I believe that Zeta Psi's original house at the University of California, Berkeley is older, dating back to 1876. That original house was torn down in 1910, so if this sentence was only supposed to refer to still-extant buildings, that should be better specified. This website is my source, and if needed I can probably dig up something more 'credible'. This source doesn't make it explicitly clear that the house was residential when it was first built, but I think it's implied and again, there may be more detailed sources available if needed. AxaiosRex (talk) 15:48, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Suggestion for improvement

The organization and neatness were thought out since it flows very nicely. It was very knowledgeful the creation and its origins on how it came to be in U.S.A. It was also very educational of how the process of obtaining one and running fraternity. It was good to see the perspective of what it's like to be in one and the facts and information on being in one. The only thing I noticed that there wasn't too much information on sororities in the U.S.A and other fraternity and sororities outside of America. Its mention in the beginning but there wasn,t any information or facts about organizations. I wish it had more details about sororities and the process on it.

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Requested move 31 March 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by proposer. Please see the additional RM below. Cúchullain ^t/c 13:23, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

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Fraternities and sororities → Fraternities and sororities in North America – Excuse, we'll have to bring this up again. This is not WP:PRIMARYTOPIC; it fails WP:GLOBAL and WP:PRECISION. Either the proposed name or at least we'd better change it to "Student fraternities and sororities", and preferably even in that case also with the addition "in North America" if we don't want to bring a whole much broader scope internationally. Again the WP:GLOBAL issue should be obvious to anyone who studies the international context the slightest. PPEMES (talk) 20:55, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support clearly a North America article. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:20, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose I'm sure it has come up before, but while I might agree if the title were merely fraternity or fraternities, in the English-speaking world, the phrasing fraternities and sororities almost exclusively refers to the North American collegiate fraternity and sorority system. Try a search on sorority in just about any English-language news agency, and it almost certainly refers to a North American collegiate organization of the type, as the percentage and absolute number of participants is greater than in other systems, and because they generate more news coverage. This is certainly WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, which is why it was renamed here.-- choster (talk) 01:52, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

If it only said "sororoties", yes, then perhaps. But "fraternities" without a disambiguator doesn't reach fully satisfying WP:PRECISION just because of the "sororoties", does it, since "sororities" is not a clear word for most readers just because fraternities - in the general sense - may be for many? Hence, in the end, a disambiguator such as "in North America" wouldn't hurt for the both precision, global and primary topic reasons. PPEMES (talk) 09:24, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

The use of the two terms in combination with one another is the disambiguator. If you used "fraternities" alone, yes, you might refer to the verbindungen and corpos and monasteries and the Masons and so forth. But "fraternities and sororities" together, in English, refers to the North American system; to add "in North America" is needlessly verbose and besides excludes the organizations in the Philippines (and perhaps in Puerto Rico) which grew out of the American system. By analogy, "fish" alone is ambiguous, and "chips" alone is ambiguous, but no one is ever confused by the term fish and chips. -- choster (talk) 00:17, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

While not everyone knows what fish and chips is, at least more people probably know what it is than "sorority" or the connotation hereby asserted of its combination with fraternity. "In English", as you assert, might be interpretated as in "English culture". Something I doubt, but if that would be the case, the issue with WP:GLOBAL remains. Besides, dishes named by edible things arguably don't really need the disambiguators as much. I'm not sure my objection is refuted by individuals here repeating that they themselves are personally informed of the connotation of "sorority"/"fraternities and sororities", and/or live in a context where that is the case, as seen below. The argument that this particular phenomena stretches outside of North America is easily objected since it still has its roots there. PPEMES (talk) 09:44, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. It's primarily an American topic. Calidum 01:02, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per arguments by choster. The combination of "fraternities and sororities", as a phrase, should leave no doubt as to what this article is about. Ostealthy (talk) 03:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Obviously it does leave doubt. Whether or not "sororities" could stand without disambiguator, it should be clear to anyone that "fraternities" cannot, whether in combination or not. This combination is not known outside of North America, perhaps not even there, I don't know. But then we have I don't know how many English-speakers in India, quite a few in Africa, and then innumerous ones speaking it as a second or third language. In summery, those who are familiar with the connotation of "fraternities" in combination with "sororities" don't correspond to a critical minority large enough to reject taking WP:GLOBAL into account. Inversely, I doubt those who are informed about the North American connotation wouldn't be confused by a "in North America" WP: PRECISION addition. I would like to ask commentators on this talk page to apply some self-criticism in terms of universe of connotations, not the least since you could expect a certain introduced bias of users actually bothering commenting in this location. See: Category: Fraternities for starters. PPEMES (talk) 11:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. I just realised that this request cannot be dealt with without taking the larger niche topic into account. Hence, formulating a new multiple request below. The above request may thus be prematurely closed, if you don't mind, and discussion relocated to the new one below. Please exuse the inconvience. PPEMES (talk) 13:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose, per the last time. There's already an article on fraternity that covers other types of fraternities. Sorority rarely refers to anything but college sororities, and already redirects to this article. Therefore, there's no real risk that anyone seeing the name fraternities and sororities will confuse it with any other existing article, and the hat note will get any potential confused readers where they need to go. The "in North America" verbiage is unnecessary for any purpose, as well as incorrect, as it covers material on countries outside North America.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:22, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 8 April 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 15:02, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

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• Fraternities and sororities → Student fraternities and sororities in North America
• Fraternities and sororities in Canada → Student fraternities and sororities in Canada
• High school fraternities and sororities → High school fraternities and sororities in North America
• History of North American fraternities and sororities → History of student fraternities and sororities in North America
• North American fraternity and sorority housing → Student fraternity and sorority housing in North America
• Cultural interest fraternities and sororities → Cultural interest student fraternities and sororities in North America
• Christian fraternity → Christian student fraternities in North America
• Christian sorority → Christian student sororities in North America
• Service fraternities and sororities → Service fraternities and sororities in North America
• Professional fraternities and sororities → Professional fraternities and sororities in North America
• List of Jewish fraternities and sororities → List of Jewish student fraternities and sororities in North America
• List of Latino Greek-letter organizations → List of Latino student fraternities and sororities in North America
• List of African-American Greek and fraternal organizations → List of African-American student fraternities and sororities in North America
• List of LGBT and LGBT-friendly fraternities and sororities → List of LGBT-friendly student fraternities and sororities in North America
• List of fictional fraternities and sororities → List of fictional student fraternities and sororities in North America
• List of fraternities and sororities in Puerto Rico → List of student fraternities and sororities in Puerto Rico
• List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines → List of student fraternities and sororities in the Philippines
• List of fraternities and sororities in France → List of student fraternities and sororities in France

– I realised that the immediate above move request cannot be dealt with without taking a little bit larger context of niche articles into account. Hence this renewed request (and the former one may be dropped). The request concerns WP:GLOBAL, WP:PRECISION, WP:CONSISTENCY, and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC - i.e. occupying "Christian fraternity" with disambiguator? No way, this should redirect to Fraternity. That is, if none wants to write a new article Christian fraternity possibly bordering WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH on the WP:GLOBAL intersection of fraternity and Christianity in general. PPEMES (talk) 13:14, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose, per the last time. There's already an article on fraternity that covers other types of fraternities. Sorority rarely refers to anything but college sororities, and already redirects to this article. Therefore, there's no real risk that anyone seeing the name fraternities and sororities will confuse it with any other existing article, and the hat note will get any potential confused readers where they need to go. The "in North America" verbiage is unnecessary for any purpose, as well as incorrect, as it covers material on countries outside North America.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:23, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, sorority may hold WP:PRIMARYTOPIC without disambiguator. It's "fraternity" that bugs the logic, whether standalone or in combination. And, yes, I do object to the connotion of that combination would be satisfying to WP:PRECISION while taking WP:GLOBAL into account. I'd insist we can afford a disambiguator here. PPEMES (talk) 13:33, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Again, the article isn't titled Fraternity, which is a separate article that covers what you're talking about. It's titled "Fraternities and sororities", and there's no evidence that that phrase commonly refers to any other topics. That's beyond the fact that the "in North America" disambiguator is incorrect.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:40, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Well, a WP:GLOBAL reader could be expected to know vaguely what fraternity could mean as a broad spectra of things, right? But but not sorority. While sorority could enjoy WP:PRIMARYTOPIC without disambiguator, since there is little competition of connotations, the combination issue still boils down to fraternity WP:GLOBAL connotation issue, doesn't it? Since the article title is a combination, we can't disregard that objection, can we? And no, fish and chips is a dish, and names of dishes may require less disambiguation: as for fish and chips the name gives more of a clear idea what the topic is about than "fraternities and sororities for a person limitedly initiated into North American student fraternity culture (which most English-speakers arguably are not). In other words, arguably for the typical reader, the article is about "fraternity (generic sense, in plural) and then some strange neologism", both interpretated as pertaining to a generic, international topic about fraternities and sonething strange - although the contents surprisingly do not. They pertain to a niche, narrowed-down, regional, usually student thing originating in North America. About the disambiguator, sure, whichever better one could do. It's to have some sort of disambiguator that is asked for, secondary what kind of one. Please note that fraternities has been around globally for thousands of years, and still exist broadly, internationally. Whether oriented for men, women, or both. Now, there are vast amounts of fraternities in different countries, for men or woman, for students or others, with Christian or other affiliations, that predate the existance of the United States for centuries, to put it bluntly. PPEMES (talk) 15:16, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence that readers from any country would type in or click on the title "fraternities and sororities" expecting to find any of our other articles. And again, if that happened, the hat note will get them where they want to go.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:29, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: Pinging everyone who participated in the above RM that was withdrawn by the nominator: In ictu oculi, choster, Calidum, Ostealthy.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:25, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: In general. The only ones here that don't seem like slam dunks against, are Christian fraternity and the two that already contain North America having that being moved to the end.Naraht (talk) 14:10, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

What do you mean by slamdunks against? PPEMES (talk) 14:28, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

To be more specific, Oppose all except for the three mentioned, meh on the other three.Naraht (talk) 15:23, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose: Some of these are wide afield from the closely aligned organizations on American and Canadian collegiate campuses. Niche pages should stand alone, serving the groups that identify with them (Philippines fraternities, or LGBT, for example.) The others may deserve WP:hatnotes or because of conceptual adjacency. But not simply because of the shared use of the word "fraternity." Jax MN (talk) 16:09, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose This is becoming WP:POINT-y; the merits of renaming Christian fraternity and Christian sorority are not one and the same with the merits of renaming the others. "Fraternities and sororities" is not a term commonly applied to organizations of traditions other than the North American system. The insistence that ignorance of the latter term makes the entire formulation invalid is baffling. -- choster (talk) 16:55, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

That's it. "Fraternities and sororities" is not a term commonly (in North America) applied to organisation other than to the North American system. However, Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia on North American systems, nor can we assume that the readers are informated in North American fraternity systems, nor that a given WP:ARTICLETITLE pertains to this narrowed-down niche, can we? Hence the help of a disambiguator of choice. Pretty much all lead section of the articles linked soon enough begin to make it clear to the readers that it speaks about fraternities in the United States, and most often student associations. Why not help to make that obvious in the first place? That's the point I'm trying to make. For a Christian fraternity, just to take one example out of the hat, consider Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre. North American? Not so much. Obviously I disagree that the above proposed renames are not related to each other. PPEMES (talk) 17:09, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose, speedy close and slap the nominator with our finest trout. See my comments and others in the above discussion. Calidum 19:03, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Ok. Per nature of niche topic, I guess, I'm afraid this talk page seems only to attract North American or English native biased contributors, cross-validating each other. Thus giving in. Have a good day. PPEMES (talk) 20:23, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Origins of Greek Letter naming?

There should be some mention of how the whole Greek Letter tradition started. Valetude (talk) 11:52, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Motion for Semi-Protection

Due to rampant vandalism by anonymous IP editors, this Article should be Semi-Protected. Attention Admins: Please Semi-Protect this Article! The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 02:21, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done. For now, anyway. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 09:20, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

"Greek Life" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Greek Life. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 18#Greek Life until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. dudhhr_Contribs 01:33, 18 September 2021 (UTC)